| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Gary Dallison |
Posted - 12 Nov 2016 : 09:28:19
So ive been thoroughly scouring the OGB for lore (lots of great passages in there i had overlooked previously).
I came across a line which went something like this.
In the ancient past dragons ruled the lands from the inner sea to the sword coast. Then the elves came and the dragons retreated to the north.
So if imagine that the inner sea to the sword coast covers everything from unther to calimshan and from narfell to waterdeep.
This is a similar region covered by the giants before them and the creator races before that.
So what about shaar. I know ive read a passage about the dragon overlords of the south in shaar but i got the impression that it was a recent thing that was ended around the time shoon arrived.
So why did the dragons avoid the area. Geography cant have been holding them back because they can fly. It wasnt a wasteland back then because it was the elves that burned it.
Did the same thing that kept the dragons out also keep the giants away. Did the sarrukh ever go there (okoth was just north of it but did it ever venture that far south). I dont think we have anything about the batrachi there but i vaguely recall an aearee enclave in or near the shaar.
Dragons began as aearee pets/slaves so perhaps something of the aearee survived there that predated on dragons. Did the elves destroy whatever that remnant was?
Any thoughts or lore snippets that might explain such a passage. |
| 9 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 19 Nov 2016 : 14:34:38
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
If you use some of the lore from the two quasi-canonical Shaar adventure-paths (they were done 'generic', even though the maps were FR), there seems to be a large number of half-dragons in the Channath (Elsir) Vale. That would infer some 'dragon lords' at one time.
As for canon, we'd have to go a bit further afield, but we may find our answer - Genies. The Al-Qadim (Zakhara) material clearly states the dragons are afraid of Zakhara because of all the dgen. Could be they avoid 'the south' altogether. Since Calimshan stomped all over the Shaar and parts south during their imperial era, one could imagine that they brought their genie-kind with them. In fact, given some of the other lore regarding the Old Empires, the Shining Waters, and even the Utter East and maybe Imsakar (Raurin region - see Deserts of Desolation), the dragons may just be avoiding any area predisposed toward another race that don't find them 'so scary'.
EDIT:
Also, In Elaine's Evermeet novel, there was some discourse about Avariel (winged elves) being very effective against dragons. 'Back in the Day' (pre-Crown War) the Dark Elves (pre-Drow green/Sylvan Elves) had total control of the southern regions of Faerûn. I can imagine a bat-winged (fiend-blooded) dark Elf brigade who's purpose was to combat draconic threats. We also had at least one uber-mage with them K'narlist (sp?), who seemed like who could easily take-out a few dragons by himself.
Just to note, in canon (but not necessarily the realms) we do have bat winged drow. The canon ones were named Fainil. They could have migrated.... of just like the Fey'ri they could just be a similar development in FR.
From Dragon #244 "Warriors of the Wind" Article
The Fainil and Telvar originated on the same world, a
planet known as Tir. The deadly conflict between the gray
elves and drow on Tir occurred shortly after the world was
created. The gray elves drove the drow underground,
where the dark elves plotted their return to the surface for
centuries. One of the questions the drow faced was how to
deal with the Telvar, who were certain to side with the other
surface races against any invasion from the subterranean
drow. The Telvar’s mobility could wreak havoc on the loosely
organized humanoid tribes the drow planned to use to
spearhead their conquest. The drow recognized the need to
develop a flying contingent of their own, one that would be
both loyal and willing to face the Telvar in their own
element.
The Fainil were the result of this strategic necessity. The
offspring of a selective breeding process between drow and
tanar’ri allies, the Fainil have qualities of both ancestors.
When the drow attacked the surface world, the Fainil were
at the forefront of the greatest drow victories. This military
superiority was proven when the war ended after 50 years
and sunlight returned to Tir. While the rest of the drow were
destroyed or driven underground, the two Fainil fortresses,
Morvan and Moddan, withstood repeated assaults. The
Fainil remain in their isolated strongholds to this day, gaining
strength and plotting.
Since the war on Tir, the Fainil have spread slowly to
other worlds, although the center of their society remains in
the fortresses of Morvan and Moddan.
And of course, nothing even says they'd have to be half-fiends.... it would fit the drow culture, but other options for bat-winged drow would fit as well. For instance, half-dragon drow. In fact, deep dragons have a close relationship with drow. Granted, most half-dragons that are medium don't have wings though. |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 19 Nov 2016 : 14:23:17
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
If you use some of the lore from the two quasi-canonical Shaar adventure-paths (they were done 'generic', even though the maps were FR), there seems to be a large number of half-dragons in the Channath (Elsir) Vale. That would infer some 'dragon lords' at one time.
As for canon, we'd have to go a bit further afield, but we may find our answer - Genies. The Al-Qadim (Zakhara) material clearly states the dragons are afraid of Zakhara because of all the dgen. Could be they avoid 'the south' altogether. Since Calimshan stomped all over the Shaar and parts south during their imperial era, one could imagine that they brought their genie-kind with them. In fact, given some of the other lore regarding the Old Empires, the Shining Waters, and even the Utter East and maybe Imsakar (Raurin region - see Deserts of Desolation), the dragons may just be avoiding any area predisposed toward another race that don't find them 'so scary'.
EDIT:
Also, In Elaine's Evermeet novel, there was some discourse about Avariel (winged elves) being very effective against dragons. 'Back in the Day' (pre-Crown War) the Dark Elves (pre-Drow green/Sylvan Elves) had total control of the southern regions of Faerûn. I can imagine a bat-winged (fiend-blooded) dark Elf brigade who's purpose was to combat draconic threats. We also had at least one uber-mage with them K'narlist (sp?), who seemed like who could easily take-out a few dragons by himself.
Just to note, in canon (but not necessarily the realms) we do have bat winged drow. The canon ones were named Fainil. They could have migrated.... of just like the Fey'ri they could just be a similar development in FR.
From Dragon #244 "Warriors of the Wind" Article
The Fainil and Telvar originated on the same world, a
planet known as Tir. The deadly conflict between the gray
elves and drow on Tir occurred shortly after the world was
created. The gray elves drove the drow underground,
where the dark elves plotted their return to the surface for
centuries. One of the questions the drow faced was how to
deal with the Telvar, who were certain to side with the other
surface races against any invasion from the subterranean
drow. The Telvar’s mobility could wreak havoc on the loosely
organized humanoid tribes the drow planned to use to
spearhead their conquest. The drow recognized the need to
develop a flying contingent of their own, one that would be
both loyal and willing to face the Telvar in their own
element.
The Fainil were the result of this strategic necessity. The
offspring of a selective breeding process between drow and
tanar’ri allies, the Fainil have qualities of both ancestors.
When the drow attacked the surface world, the Fainil were
at the forefront of the greatest drow victories. This military
superiority was proven when the war ended after 50 years
and sunlight returned to Tir. While the rest of the drow were
destroyed or driven underground, the two Fainil fortresses,
Morvan and Moddan, withstood repeated assaults. The
Fainil remain in their isolated strongholds to this day, gaining
strength and plotting.
Since the war on Tir, the Fainil have spread slowly to
other worlds, although the center of their society remains in
the fortresses of Morvan and Moddan. |
| Gary Dallison |
Posted - 19 Nov 2016 : 08:33:30
I think fiend drow winged elves are a great idea and very in line with the lore on ilythiiri. A vrock or two in the bloodlines could easily result in what is needed.
As for the evermeet novel, elaine recently said it was never meant to be interpreted as fact, it is like a history book and so can be wrong and was of course written by the winning side so they no doubt wished to portray the ilythiir as always a bit evil.
So im happy taking liberties with that novel. Maybe kanarlist was trying to revive the avarial race rather than trying to capture one. It was only during the crown wars that the ilythiir descended to evil i think. |
| Markustay |
Posted - 19 Nov 2016 : 03:19:49
quote:
Originally posted by TBeholder
quote:
I can imagine a bat-winged (fiend-blooded) dark Elf brigade who's purpose was to combat draconic threats.
Because no way even one pointless copycat can be skipped.
Or, it could be I read Evermeet, Isle of Elves VERY carefully, and K'narlist (sp?) wanted to capture some Avariel just to make his own, special 'winged dark elf'. As far as we know, he never caught any Avariel, so being who he was (a very ebil dude), I just extrapolated that he would have devised another means of making 'winged dark elves' (because the novel also said he was into weird 'breeding programs').
Or, it could just be that I think bat-winged drow would be uber-kewl.
So, if Jarlaxle is 'The Joker', does that make Driz'zt 'Batdrow' (cue raspy voice: "I'm Batdrow!") |
| TBeholder |
Posted - 18 Nov 2016 : 20:38:09
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
If you use some of the lore from the two quasi-canonical Shaar adventure-paths (they were done 'generic', even though the maps were FR), there seems to be a large number of half-dragons in the Channath (Elsir) Vale. That would infer some 'dragon lords' at one time.
Or just a single shapeshifting dragon who is... really into mingling with the scale-less species. 
quote:
EDIT:
Also, In Elaine's Evermeet novel, there was some discourse about Avariel (winged elves) being very effective against dragons.
Given more in The Year of Rogue Dragons. Yeah.
Which is why my pet hypothesis is that they are result of Aearee "uplifting" some elves as more warlike species after the dragons became a credible threat.
quote:
I can imagine a bat-winged (fiend-blooded) dark Elf brigade who's purpose was to combat draconic threats.
Because no way even one pointless copycat can be skipped. |
| Gary Dallison |
Posted - 14 Nov 2016 : 08:31:05
had not considered the ilythiiri. having just been smashed by the elves it makes perfect sense for the dragons to avoid their lands, at least for a few thousand years until the forget about the king killer star.
|
| Markustay |
Posted - 14 Nov 2016 : 01:33:34
If you use some of the lore from the two quasi-canonical Shaar adventure-paths (they were done 'generic', even though the maps were FR), there seems to be a large number of half-dragons in the Channath (Elsir) Vale. That would infer some 'dragon lords' at one time.
As for canon, we'd have to go a bit further afield, but we may find our answer - Genies. The Al-Qadim (Zakhara) material clearly states the dragons are afraid of Zakhara because of all the dgen. Could be they avoid 'the south' altogether. Since Calimshan stomped all over the Shaar and parts south during their imperial era, one could imagine that they brought their genie-kind with them. In fact, given some of the other lore regarding the Old Empires, the Shining Waters, and even the Utter East and maybe Imsakar (Raurin region - see Deserts of Desolation), the dragons may just be avoiding any area predisposed toward another race that don't find them 'so scary'.
EDIT:
Also, In Elaine's Evermeet novel, there was some discourse about Avariel (winged elves) being very effective against dragons. 'Back in the Day' (pre-Crown War) the Dark Elves (pre-Drow green/Sylvan Elves) had total control of the southern regions of Faerûn. I can imagine a bat-winged (fiend-blooded) dark Elf brigade who's purpose was to combat draconic threats. We also had at least one uber-mage with them K'narlist (sp?), who seemed like who could easily take-out a few dragons by himself. |
| TBeholder |
Posted - 13 Nov 2016 : 22:05:21
quote:
Originally posted by dazzlerdal
I came across a line which went something like this.
In the ancient past dragons ruled the lands from the inner sea to the sword coast. Then the elves came and the dragons retreated to the north.
So if imagine that the inner sea
Heh, and then it turned out in these times there was no inner sea.
And that the dragons were in charge until King-Killer star.
quote:
I dont think we have anything about the batrachi there but i vaguely recall an aearee enclave in or near the shaar.
Dragons began as aearee pets/slaves
IIRC, dragons appeared as a rain of egg meteors.
quote:
so perhaps something of the aearee survived there that predated on dragons.
Did the elves destroy whatever that remnant was?
Those are Aarakocra (and Kenku). After the dragons destroyed or displaced most of them, they couldn't raise to importance again - too few were left, too much was lost. But didn't die out completely either. |
| Wrigley |
Posted - 12 Nov 2016 : 12:03:25
I see this as generalization meaning they ruled almost everywhere with most of their population around the sea (as most other civilisations do). As they are mostly individualistic and accept only vassals on their turf there were many "kingdoms" all over the place. Some used human minions and others just stayed in their cave and slept. That is why we have heard of only a fraction of mighty dragons. There is a book called Dragons of Faerun and if you look at ages of those dragons you can see a lot of them here for a long time. |
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