| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| blade020877 |
Posted - 06 Nov 2016 : 22:22:08
Just looking for more ideas or tactics on how to defeat a naval fleet.
So just a little background to the game, I am one of three pirate lords in the pirate islands. We have join a large powerful (evil) organisation that has been at war with cormyr. So as I been a thorn in the side to cormyr with raiding towns and ships. I have a fleet of about 50 ships and command a large town on one of the bigger islands.
• So I have learned that cormyr is getting a large fleet together to wipe me out.
• So I will be out manned and out gunned but I am defending and it is in my back yard.
• So I have a couple of ideas as assassin couple of captions of the cormyr fleet.
• Fire boats and oil on the water.
• Intercept orders.
• Raid towns which are no protection now as ships have leave. (Use hostages as leverage)
So I am looking for magical or nonmagical tactics to defeating the enemy fleet
Or anything else I haven’t thought of
Cheers
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| 30 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| blade020877 |
Posted - 21 Nov 2016 : 10:14:53
quote:
If you are facing a regular Cormyrean fleet, with only 'Blue' Dragon naval personnel and the Wizards of War aboard, your problem is much more severe than if the opposition was composed of a few naval ships, a force of Cormyrean Freesail and other allies of Cormyr sent from several harbours.
this is very true.
i am thinking of abandoning my town and have my men go underground.
but i think i will use some tactics (non ship to ship), like dim door on to some ships, shadows and summon sea monsters to damage the fleet.
my plan here will be have them running around looking for me as i go on the counter attack against cormyr allies and some of cormyr weaker port towns with no naval support. call it plan A lol |
| TBeholder |
Posted - 21 Nov 2016 : 01:36:46
quote:
Originally posted by Eilserus
Lots of smokepowder in 50 gallon barrels. Have a psion or two blow them up when they get near ships. Depending on campaign, psionics might not be detectable by wizards.
> Piss on what?
Setting smokepowder on fire isn't hard. A basic "fire rope" fuse screened by cloth is enough, if the idea is to use them in demolition/limpet way. That is, get them to the ships.
But how? Combat divers?
There are many problems - and detect magic is the last of them. Serôsian politics may be somewhere in the middle of the list, depending on where such an operation would be attempted. But in the unlikely case they somehow have support from below, smokepowder may be superfluous.
A contact fuse is a simple mechanical device. Flintlock type fuses were used in early sea mines of our world. A spray of hypergolic ("firebirth") mix would do, too. Or may as well use magical, because it's not like the targets would have magical radars all the way to the horizon active day and night - if a trap is investigated before triggering at all, it already have failed. Some sort of a "that burn when this burns" magical link would be a better equivalent of galvanic mine fuse.
But the fuse is not the hard part.
The hard part is to get your traps in contact with the ship without being noticed and avoided/diverted/destroyed. How would it look practically?
Remotely controlled sea bottom minefield at your own shoal?
That's good - if it actually works - but it's a last-ditch defence system that needs much testing and a lot of efforts to set up, maintain and even operate.
Offensive minelaying?
Hard to implement properly and requires lots and lots of mines. The reliable hardware for fast minelaying (both automatic anchor and rail system), while not too complex, in our world was built only by late XIX century, and not for lack of trying earlier. It's not something a pirate base on an island could do.
Self-propelled munitions?
Certainly possible in low-tech solutions (a log towed by kite, add warhead to taste), but exceedingly unreliable, circumstantial and laughably easy to counter if the target knows what to expect. |
| Eilserus |
Posted - 20 Nov 2016 : 16:46:06
Lots of smokepowder in 50 gallon barrels. Have a psion or two blow them up when they get near ships. Depending on campaign, psionics might not be detectable by wizards. |
| blade020877 |
Posted - 20 Nov 2016 : 16:31:21
been away for a bit to get back to read post, a bit of a surprise (good surprise) on so many replies. thanks for the help, and very interesting reading.
i do agree taking on cormyr is a very risky. but i am planning on sending in spies to see how large fleet is, one of my plans is counter attack.
once they sail i will attack there undefeated ports and then go underground.
i do have excess to shadows and was thinking sending them to some ships and turning the crew into shadows
i am trying not to use too much magic as wizards can pick up on it quick with detect magic
i like the dim door with ship boarder.
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| Kyrel |
Posted - 17 Nov 2016 : 16:57:23
Icelander pretty much nails it above. If Cormyr is coming at you in force, don't bother trying to defend in a straight up engagement. Scatter your forces and go to ground. Even if you have 50 ships and skilled crews, you are not going to have the resources necessary to beat the whole of Cormyr's forces, if they are coming for you in force.
In any case, the first order of the day for you is to determine what you are up against, because without that knowledge, you are "sailing blind".
If you're outnumbered and outgunned, the wise course of action will normally be to withdraw and deny the enemy the fight. If that's impossible, then you're down to tactics, skill, and luck. If you opponent dominates you in the magic department, and you can't run away, you're basically screwed. If you dominate him, then you have a chance, depending on what spells, and how many of them, you can bring to bear. As for which spells, there are dozens^n to choose from, and the more creative you can get, the more there are. I played in a merchant campaign once, but never got a chance to test this thought out, but theoretically, a (Sudden) Widened Cloudkill ought to be able to cover a fair bit of an enemy ship, and I'd expect that most average NPC sailers would be Lvl. 3 or less, and most NPC officers Lvl. 6 or less, meaning that most of the crew on the target ship ought to die pretty quick.
Historically speaking, most old time naval engagements rarely ended up sinking ships. It wasn't until the invension of the high explosive grenades etc. that ships sinking became a "common" part of naval battles. Until that point, ships sinking as a result of naval battles weren't really all that common. You might want to read this https://www.rpg.net/columns/ourstory/ourstory6.phtml over at rpg.net. IMO it's pretty good. |
| Icelander |
Posted - 17 Nov 2016 : 13:12:51
Assuming enough magic and no ability to counter it on the other side, the ways of sinking or burning a fleet of ships in the Forgotten Realms are nearly infinite.
Summoning great aquatic beasts or a swarm of air, fire or water elementals would do it. So would enough Meteor Swarms or even enough Fireballs. Sorcerous storms, blasts of lightning, prismatic walls or massive weights falling from on high.
In any fleet engagement in the Realms, I expect that some ships are struck with powerful magic without the ability to counter it and are thus utterly destroyed. On the other hand, given that fire extinguishing spells are usually easier to learn and cast than spells which set such a large area on fire and that this usually holds true for other types of magic as well, I wouldn't expect it to be a common outcome for an entire fleet to sink or be destroyed.
Even into the 19th century on our Earth, most naval battles ended with one or more of the loser's ships captured, with destruction during the battle being a dramatic exception, not the rule. L'Orient blew up at the Nile, but even at that famously decisive and destructive battle, nine out of thirteen French ships-of-the-line were captured and not destroyed.
So you ought to be considering how to capture most of the ships in the enemy fleet. From what I can determine, every magic system that has been used in the Forgotten Realms shares the feature that magic is more powerful as a force multiplier when used for communication, information-gathering, logistical and terrain-adaptation purposes than when used in pure damaging roles.
If you are facing a regular Cormyrean fleet, with only 'Blue' Dragon naval personnel and the Wizards of War aboard, your problem is much more severe than if the opposition was composed of a few naval ships, a force of Cormyrean Freesail and other allies of Cormyr sent from several harbours.
Realistically, a regular fleet means that there won't be any ships in the Cormyrean force that do not have organic magical support and that the navigation and communication of the enemy will be magical as much as mundane. They can concentrate their fleet at a precise spot and time, even if the weather is adverse, and no element of it will ever be out of contact from the rest.
Given the expense of a ship, crew and weapons designed purely for naval combat, it simply doesn't make sense to fit out a naval vessel and then allow it to blunder blindly about in shoal waters. It's even likely that the War Wizards will be able to have summoned creatures and wizard eyes scout ahead of each squadron of the fleet for submerged hazards and to navigate through dangerous waters.
The proper response to such a fleet is to scatter your own ships, avoid them and hide. Beach some ships in hidden inlets or take shelter in rarely used pirate coves. Let leaders hide under assumed names in pirate-friendly ports and your crews hide inland on the various Pirate Islands, where they can be fed by the slave farms that presumably exist there.
Defend any settlement too valuable to lose, if there is such a thing, but be aware that Cormyr can probably amass enough ships, wizards and soldiers to take even Immurk's Hold if it becomes really important. In any case, defend from land-based forts, which are hard to take from the sea, and use your ships exclusively to prevent landings elsewhere on the defended island.
Your goal is to refuse any decisive engagement until the massively expensive fleet cannot be maintained any longer and Cormyr gives up. Don't worry, it will eventually give up, because a real fleet is astronomically expensive to keep on a war footing and while this fleet is in existence, a worryingly large part of the War Wizards and the Purple Dragons will be assigned to it. Cormyr will be vulnerable on land while they try to keep the fleet in existence to hunt down elusive pirates.
If, on the other hand, Cormyr has called together a 'fleet' consisting mostly of merchant ships with membership in the Cormyrean Freesails, with only a few real naval vessels, your task is much easier. In this case, the chain-of-command may not be as clear-cut as with a real Cormyrean fleet and it is not certain that all vessels have capable mages for communications and navigation. With superior knowledge of the Pirate Isles and a good intelligence network, it may be possible to concentrate your own force on detachments of the enemy and defeat him in detail. |
| sfdragon |
Posted - 14 Nov 2016 : 16:28:09
have a few clerics of umberlee do it |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 14 Nov 2016 : 13:30:02
The point about battles being won by casters but not wars is a very good one. Its all well and good when you know a battle is brewing to have prepared casters, but the day to day strivings will be less likely to involve heavy magic use..... however, the ship that does have a high level magic user will rule the day. |
| Kentinal |
Posted - 13 Nov 2016 : 18:41:40
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Omenborn
Some Walls of Ice in the Water in front of the Enemy Fleet should do some damage when they crash into them.
Only if you can anchor the wall to something -- it has to be anchored, per the spell description.
And even then, the greater mass of the ship would likely plow through the wall.
Place the wall of ice on bow of attacking ship. Make it a sphere. Depending on caster level the bow will break off the ship causing the ship to sink.
Of course one does run into how many spells can be cast and number of spell casters in the navy. Most wars does not appear to be won by magic, battles can be not wars. War requires maintaining control over territory. That is done by army as opposed to even mass charm. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 13 Nov 2016 : 18:06:25
quote:
Originally posted by Omenborn
Some Walls of Ice in the Water in front of the Enemy Fleet should do some damage when they crash into them.
Only if you can anchor the wall to something -- it has to be anchored, per the spell description.
And even then, the greater mass of the ship would likely plow through the wall. |
| Omenborn |
Posted - 13 Nov 2016 : 17:56:42
Some Walls of Ice in the Water in front of the Enemy Fleet should do some damage when they crash into them. How about bargainig for the help of some Draong Turles or Black Dragons for a part of the Spoils of War ? |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 12 Nov 2016 : 15:46:20
quote:
Originally posted by The Masked Mage
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I've always loved the wall of iron spell. Nothing says it has to be in contact with anything at all when conjured... So call it into being 100 feet over a ship, and let it fall. If it hits, the least it will do is tear a big hole in the deck -- most likely, it'll keep right on going, tearing a hole all the way thru the ship.
And most ships don't do well with very large holes in the bottom. 
Same goes for pretty much every wall / matter conjuration/creation spell...
Not really, at least not for the wall spells. Wall of stone needs existing stone to connect to, and walls of fire and force are utterly stationary. I suppose a wall of ice could be dropped, but it wouldn't have the mass of the iron and thus wouldn't do nearly as much damage. |
| The Masked Mage |
Posted - 12 Nov 2016 : 08:04:07
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I've always loved the wall of iron spell. Nothing says it has to be in contact with anything at all when conjured... So call it into being 100 feet over a ship, and let it fall. If it hits, the least it will do is tear a big hole in the deck -- most likely, it'll keep right on going, tearing a hole all the way thru the ship.
And most ships don't do well with very large holes in the bottom.
Same goes for pretty much every wall / matter conjuration/creation spell...
|
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 11 Nov 2016 : 14:59:16
I've always loved the wall of iron spell. Nothing says it has to be in contact with anything at all when conjured... So call it into being 100 feet over a ship, and let it fall. If it hits, the least it will do is tear a big hole in the deck -- most likely, it'll keep right on going, tearing a hole all the way thru the ship.
And most ships don't do well with very large holes in the bottom. |
| Barastir |
Posted - 11 Nov 2016 : 10:56:23
Warp wood on the hull's planks? Fire (magical or alchemic) on the sails? |
| The Masked Mage |
Posted - 11 Nov 2016 : 07:46:30
Look at the naval magic in the old dragon magazines. There were a lot of naval battle spells.
Aside from the obvious offensive spells, simple and obvious spells would be crystalbrittle - then ram / transmutation of the hull / reverse gravity or levitation to up-end the vessel / Mordenkainen's sword to hack at the hull, etc. / disintegrate the hull / polymorph any object on the ship / airy water beneath the ship (this would alter buoyancy in the area) / telekinesis on something heavy - like a anchor or cannon and dropped into the hold to punch through the hull / any and all weather controlling spells (a simple gust of wind at an oblique angle to a ship would be devastating) / elemental summoning / illusions cast on hazards like rocks and shoals |
| KanzenAU |
Posted - 11 Nov 2016 : 06:08:33
A question I've been thinking about for a while, but that also bears some relevance to this discussion:
What type of wood are ships typically made out of in the Realms?
Possibilities:
Duskwood is already used for mast spars, which is good to know because it's hard and resistant to fire. Could be a good choice for the hull too.
Laspar's like cedar, which is used in the real world so it might be an option, but it snaps when burned.
Suthwood is an interesting possibility, being exceedingly durable.
Zalantar/blackwood is strong and easily worked, a good possibility.
Oak and Ash have also been used in the RW, and exist in the Realms.
Unlikely:
Blueleaf might be unfavourable due to its habit of bending.
Felsul's probably too weak.
Hiexel probably succumbs to rot too easily.
Phandar's probably too rare.
Shadowtop wood splits too easily.
Silverbark's probably too weak.
Vundwood is specifically said to be mainly used for firewood.
Weirwood might be great if it wasn't rare, being fire-resistant and durable.
Information gathered from the 3e FRCS and Dragon #125.
I'm tempted to go with Duskwood as a default as they're incredibly durable and fire-resistant, and they're found all over Faerun.
Is there anything in the canon suggesting what ships are built with? |
| Howlsofhatred |
Posted - 09 Nov 2016 : 15:54:34
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
quote:
Originally posted by Cards77
Wizards with fly, protection from arrows and fireball should be sufficient.
Or, dimension door with ship boarders that have alchemists fire.
A spell to break the hull at the water line....
Wow, this was an old tactic of mine too (not the fireball, but snilloc's snowball swarm OR a spell like cone of cold), and I usually included stoneskin, shield, and improved invisibility. There was an old 2nd edition spell like dim door (something with jump in the name) that sent you somewhere you're looking for 2 rounds and then jumped you right back. I'd get prepped with protections and then jump around the ocean hitting the PC's ships with spells and then moving somewhere else. Since I was improved invisible, your standard sailors couldn't spot me, so unless the mage happened to spot me, I usually got off the first assault as a surprise attack. The second round usually decimated the ship enough that they had to start repairs, and then I was off to another ship.
Haha, I also play so. This is a great version of the game. It gives me great pleasure. |
| Bakra |
Posted - 09 Nov 2016 : 15:21:20
Plenty good replies, my 2 cents is find some good spies, a few sympathizers and make good use of divination magic or psionics.
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| sleyvas |
Posted - 09 Nov 2016 : 14:05:26
quote:
Originally posted by Cards77
Wizards with fly, protection from arrows and fireball should be sufficient.
Or, dimension door with ship boarders that have alchemists fire.
A spell to break the hull at the water line....
Wow, this was an old tactic of mine too (not the fireball, but snilloc's snowball swarm OR a spell like cone of cold), and I usually included stoneskin, shield, and improved invisibility. There was an old 2nd edition spell like dim door (something with jump in the name) that sent you somewhere you're looking for 2 rounds and then jumped you right back. I'd get prepped with protections and then jump around the ocean hitting the PC's ships with spells and then moving somewhere else. Since I was improved invisible, your standard sailors couldn't spot me, so unless the mage happened to spot me, I usually got off the first assault as a surprise attack. The second round usually decimated the ship enough that they had to start repairs, and then I was off to another ship. |
| TBeholder |
Posted - 09 Nov 2016 : 07:48:39
quote:
Originally posted by Cards77
Wizards with fly, protection from arrows and fireball should be sufficient.
Or, dimension door with ship boarders that have alchemists fire.
There are also War Wizards. Probably more of them.
quote:
A spell to break the hull at the water line....
Shatterhull? It's cool, but that's Zakharan, not Serosian.
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| Cards77 |
Posted - 08 Nov 2016 : 14:03:41
Wizards with fly, protection from arrows and fireball should be sufficient.
Or, dimension door with ship boarders that have alchemists fire.
A spell to break the hull at the water line.... |
| Cards77 |
Posted - 08 Nov 2016 : 14:00:53
quote:
Originally posted by Seravin
I always ask the Earth Mother to send the Leviathan.
LOL you won the thread. nice! Has she ever sent it for you? |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 07 Nov 2016 : 23:43:36
Not sure what version of the game you're doing, but back during second edition I loved snilloc's snowball swarm simply because its area effect was 50% bigger in radius than a fireball, but still did enough damage to take out sailors. That changed in later editions.
The point here is that you don't have to destroy the ship if you can destroy the crew with area effects. If you can widen a burst effect or lengthen a cone to cover an entire ship, it can be devastating (particularly to ships without multiple decks, such as longships).
There were also various cloud effects like solid fog or clouds that are poisonous or flammable that were pretty devastating when placed on a moving ship. |
| Cyrinishad |
Posted - 07 Nov 2016 : 16:17:15
You could try to do what they did in the movie "Blazing Saddles". Build a fake-duplicate of your town for them to attack filled with traps. Try and force them into a battle on the island rather than at sea. |
| Seravin |
Posted - 07 Nov 2016 : 15:23:32
I always ask the Earth Mother to send the Leviathan. |
| moonbeast |
Posted - 07 Nov 2016 : 15:20:04
quote:
Originally posted by blade020877
my worry is with war wizards involved, there will be countering and dispelling. i am wondering how to made mines in D&D?
Equip your fleet with Greek Fire. They are non-magical and cannot be dispelled. |
| Wrigley |
Posted - 07 Nov 2016 : 13:38:19
Magic - Control weather, summon creature, control water, illusions, (all offensive spells)
Mundane - shallows, oil, night raid before they attack, pact with sea creatures, leading them to wrong island, help of other pirates, leaving the town and claiming other on islands (disapear) |
| eeorey |
Posted - 07 Nov 2016 : 12:31:58
Sabotage, have someone undermine the enemy war efforts. Drilling holes in the ships hulls, slashing their sails, hiding dangerous animals on board during the night, etc. |
| Gyor |
Posted - 07 Nov 2016 : 12:18:04
See if you can get the support of a Kraken or Dragonturtle? |
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