| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 02 Nov 2016 : 12:48:26
I'm just making a list of which deities definitely saw no mention in products during the 4e years because they were either supposedly "gone" or "dead" or just nothing was said about them. At present, I think that includes these. Let me know if I missed any or if some of them were in fact included in something. I'm specifically looking for those who "left" in the year of the spellplague.
Savras the All-Seeing, Deneir, Talos, Auppenser, Helm, Tyr, Lathander, Lurue, Gargauth, ... the Mulhorandi Pantheon
I know Nobanion "reappeared" near the time of the sundering in one of the books, but he was hit by the blue fire wasn't he?
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| 30 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 28 Jan 2017 : 14:37:43
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
During the Spellplague, parts of Abeir wound up on Toril.
So what happened to those parts of Toril that were replaced?
Shaundakul was just starting to rise in power again when the Spellplague happened... And he was also known for having an avatar in Myth Drannor.
So what if, during the shifting around of land that happened during the Spellplague, an avatar of Shaundakul wound up getting popped over onto Abeir? He wasn't that powerful, so the loss of an avatar would hurt him, most likely, leading to few manifestations of his power -- and thus an apparent disappearance.
Of course, when the Sundering happens, his avatar made it back home. Since all of the gods are back, that would include Shaundakul -- so having his avatar pop back during the Sundering could explain that.
Of course, this is all speculation. Other than his slow regaining of power and the avatar in Myth Drannor, the rest is purely out of my head.
Oh Wooly, you are so close to some of that which I've been working around. Did Savras die or did dweomerheart move to Abeir? Nimbral possibly went to Abeir. Was there possibly an artifact tied to Leira there? "Drowned Soorenar" was in an area of Chessenta that was getting spotty transfers between there and Abeir.... and its also where Velsharoon's Tower Terrible was, and maybe just maybe where he may have hidden a divine phylactery.... so did he have an avatar "die" so that it could be remade in Abeir to serve Mystra and/or Talos or both? With the strong ties to the elements, are followers of Kossuth/Akadi/Grumbar/Istishia actually able to function in Abeir... just these gods had never opened this avenue previously?
Along these same lines, what about entire pantheons that may have transferred, such as that of the Mazticans.... the "great spirits" that the Azuposi worshipped.... what about the ancestor spirits that the Oslanders worshipped (after all, we don't know WHAT happened to Osse... because we barely anything about Osse....) |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 27 Jan 2017 : 18:59:10
During the Spellplague, parts of Abeir wound up on Toril.
So what happened to those parts of Toril that were replaced?
Shaundakul was just starting to rise in power again when the Spellplague happened... And he was also known for having an avatar in Myth Drannor.
So what if, during the shifting around of land that happened during the Spellplague, an avatar of Shaundakul wound up getting popped over onto Abeir? He wasn't that powerful, so the loss of an avatar would hurt him, most likely, leading to few manifestations of his power -- and thus an apparent disappearance.
Of course, when the Sundering happens, his avatar made it back home. Since all of the gods are back, that would include Shaundakul -- so having his avatar pop back during the Sundering could explain that.
Of course, this is all speculation. Other than his slow regaining of power and the avatar in Myth Drannor, the rest is purely out of my head.
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| RDS |
Posted - 27 Jan 2017 : 17:16:22
quote:
Originally posted by Cyrinishad
Any theories about Shaundakul's disappearance? I've been trying to figure out something concrete around it, because Shaundakul was a favorite of my players in the 3.5 era. I like to tie-off loose-ends, even if it never comes up in my 5e campaigns.
I had a player in my (long ago) 2nd Ed campaign with a cleric/ranger of Shaundakul so I've been wondering on this myself and haven't come up with something satisfying yet. But I'm leaning toward Beshaba imprisoning Shandakul somehow/someplace while she undoes all the hard work his renewed clergy had done. I can picture her agents blaming all the Shadovar tyranny of the Bedine on him easily. |
| Zeromaru X |
Posted - 26 Jan 2017 : 11:01:10
It was less that he could not than to he did not tried. Bryseis Kakistos was to blame for that: she hid the Old Staff of Azuth in Abeir (the other world, not the continent), greatly weakening Asmodeus's grasp over Azuth; before that, the fusion was almost perfect.
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
The worst offender was Zehir.
Because the one thing FR DID have 'too many of' was reptilian deities... and they decided to lump another onto the pile. The ONLY obvious example of what they were preaching, and they made that one category worse. There was no rhyme or reason to 4e.
Cannot blame them for using Zehir. He is cooler than the traditional reptile gods. |
| Irennan |
Posted - 25 Jan 2017 : 20:08:42
Got it, but my point was that it only reinforces the fact that Asmodeus didn't do a very good job at absorbing Azuth's divinity. |
| CorellonsDevout |
Posted - 25 Jan 2017 : 20:02:04
He absorbed him to a point. They battled for dominance in their shared body. |
| Irennan |
Posted - 25 Jan 2017 : 20:00:31
Ah, thank you. From that it seems to me that Asmo did indeed fail to absorb Azuth, tho. If he truly had, Azuth's sentience would have been no more. |
| CorellonsDevout |
Posted - 25 Jan 2017 : 19:57:56
Azuth and Asmo battled for supremacy in their shared body, and this caused a lot of unrest in the Hells. A third god, Enlil, through his Chosen, a dragonborn named Duzumi, aided in the separation process, as. Asmodeus absorbed the divine spark of Nanna-Sin, allowing him to keep his divinity when he and Azuth separated. Azuth's Chosen, Ilstan (who went insane because Azuth kept speaking to him) sacrificed his life, and this helped further allow Azuth to become his own, separate entity again. |
| Irennan |
Posted - 25 Jan 2017 : 19:48:43
quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X
Now, I'll use my Necromancy spells!!!
quote:
Originally posted by Irennan
Azuth wasn't destroyed, he (conveniently) landed in the 9 Hells, where Asmodeus absorbed his divinity. Turns out he didn't do a very good job at that, tho, since Azuth survived and would later (post-Sund) escape him.
Nope. I will not spoiler you "The Devil you Know" (is a really good novel, so I'll encourange you to read it instead) but I can say Asmodeus fully absorbed Azuth divinity, to a point that it was not so good for Asmodeus. That's why both gods became separate entities again (but Asmo remained a god).
Thanks for clarifying. When I read that Azuth's sentience was till there, but that he was going insane (or something along those lines) I thought that Asmodeus had failed to completely absorb his divinity. I don't mind spoilers actually, so go ahead if you want. |
| Zeromaru X |
Posted - 25 Jan 2017 : 19:32:47
Now, I'll use my Necromancy spells!!!
quote:
Originally posted by Irennan
Azuth wasn't destroyed, he (conveniently) landed in the 9 Hells, where Asmodeus absorbed his divinity. Turns out he didn't do a very good job at that, tho, since Azuth survived and would later (post-Sund) escape him.
Nope. I will not spoiler you "The Devil you Know" (is a really good novel, so I'll encourange you to read it instead) but I can say Asmodeus fully absorbed Azuth divinity, to a point that it was not so good for Asmodeus. That's why both gods became separate entities again (but Asmo remained a god).
As for Ubtao, he is still on 4e Realms, but he is not a god anymore (or never was, by RAW). He is a Primordial, but he betraiyed the other Primordials during the Dawn War by helping the gods in that war, and because of that the gods leaved him be. Neither is one of those Primordials who were venerated as gods by the people of Faerun (the Elemental Lords), but he was still venerated on other places. |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 07 Nov 2016 : 22:03:02
quote:
Originally posted by hashimashadoo
Oh, I forgot to mention, because it didn't happen in a 4e book, but the SCAG said that Gargauth spent the 4e era trapped in the Shield of the Hidden Lord.
And yes, there were priests of Shaundakul in Temple of the Sky God, but it also said that Shaundakul had mysteriously disappeared during the Spellplague.
Edit: Plus, didn't Deneir sacrifice himself in The Ghost King to merge with the Weave in order blunt the worst effects of the Spellplague?
The Deneir thing can be read differently though, as in his priests don't necessarily KNOW what happened to him exactly.... other than he tried to write himself into the metatext and was suddently gone... and now he's back. So, he may have gone elsewhere.
On Gargauth too, we do have some flexibility. The SCAG actually says "Gargauth is a mysterious infernal power who seeks
godhood while trapped in the world within a magical shield." It doesn't say that his godly avatar is entrapped within the shield. It may very well be that he went elsewhere. Just to show why I'm wondering on him... the landrise in the Shaar had a Cliffside city called Peleveran. In Peleveran was a Pit which once housed/entrapped Gargauth. Peleveran and the landrise "disappeared" during the spellplague.... supposedly by many that it simply collapsed into the underchasm.... but what if it didn't? |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 07 Nov 2016 : 21:54:46
quote:
Originally posted by Diffan
The question I have is: are we counting deities that we know what happened ed to their existance? Mystra wasn't mentioned in the 4e books because we knew she bit the dust. Same with Tyr and Helm. So is this more a compilation of deities unknowns?
Good question. I had a personal motivation of finding what deities may have simple "gone elsewhere" during the spellplague years as a result of the spellplague. The whole story of Tyr and Helm, honestly to me could easily have been a human misunderstanding of what happened to them. I mean, the idea of Tyr killing Helm over him hitting on another goddess could easily be a really bad lie put forth by deities with little imagination for subterfuge (i.e. they didn't have Leira to help them).
That being said, the conversation itself can go in various directions. Sometimes people bringing things up spawns entirely different conversations that bring out good ideas. |
| Cyrinishad |
Posted - 07 Nov 2016 : 15:59:52
That's right Hashimashadoo. Deneir joined himself with the Weave... I seem to recall it having something to do with the Metatext, but I don't remember all the details at the moment.
Any theories about Shaundakul's disappearance? I've been trying to figure out something concrete around it, because Shaundakul was a favorite of my players in the 3.5 era. I like to tie-off loose-ends, even if it never comes up in my 5e campaigns. |
| hashimashadoo |
Posted - 07 Nov 2016 : 08:29:41
Oh, I forgot to mention, because it didn't happen in a 4e book, but the SCAG said that Gargauth spent the 4e era trapped in the Shield of the Hidden Lord.
And yes, there were priests of Shaundakul in Temple of the Sky God, but it also said that Shaundakul had mysteriously disappeared during the Spellplague.
Edit: Plus, didn't Deneir sacrifice himself in The Ghost King to merge with the Weave in order blunt the worst effects of the Spellplague? |
| Diffan |
Posted - 06 Nov 2016 : 13:41:29
The question I have is: are we counting deities that we know what happened ed to their existance? Mystra wasn't mentioned in the 4e books because we knew she bit the dust. Same with Tyr and Helm. So is this more a compilation of deities unknowns? |
| Mirtek |
Posted - 05 Nov 2016 : 21:29:12
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
quote:
Originally posted by CorellonsDevout
Lathander became Amaunataur, so while Lath himself wasn't mentioned, Amaunataur was.
Only if you assume that they truly are the same individual, and not someone else taking the place while he was gone.
Well, Lathander himself told so to his chosen. So unless he was lying, they are the same. |
| Mirtek |
Posted - 05 Nov 2016 : 21:25:45
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Yeah, the 4E designers decided there were too many gods. So they rolled some into others, ignored some, lazily killed a few... And then intro'ed some new ones, because surely a setting with too many gods needs more, right?
The worst offender was Zehir.
Because the one thing FR DID have 'too many of' was reptilian deities... and they decided to lump another onto the pile. The ONLY obvious example of what they were preaching, and they made that one category worse. There was no rhyme or reason to 4e.
I think maybe the whole edition should be retconned as "Elminster awoke, realizing it was all just a very bad dream...", and then what little 'good' came out of it, slowly sift back in over time (primordials{?} and the Warlock knights, merge the Abeir material with Maztica, the Eminence of Araunt, maybe the Dread Rings... but for some reason I picture all Thayans with Jaimacan accents now..., etc.)
Well, Zehir was an accident due to bad communcation between WotC and Obsidian. By the time someone at WotC realized that Obsidian where using Zehir as the bad deity for the Neverwinter Nights 2 addon, it was too late to replace him in the game.
Thus he became part of FR because no one at WotC was paying attention and able to tell Obsidian that Zehir wasn't a FR deity
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
oddly, even though Cyric was "locked away" or somesuch, he still was part of the listed pantheon, so he must have still had a priesthood.
Because his whole house arrest merely meaned he could not send avatars to Toril (or anywhere else). He was fully able to communicate and provide spells |
| Markustay |
Posted - 05 Nov 2016 : 20:02:27
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Yeah, the 4E designers decided there were too many gods. So they rolled some into others, ignored some, lazily killed a few... And then intro'ed some new ones, because surely a setting with too many gods needs more, right?
The worst offender was Zehir.
Because the one thing FR DID have 'too many of' was reptilian deities... and they decided to lump another onto the pile. The ONLY obvious example of what they were preaching, and they made that one category worse. There was no rhyme or reason to 4e.
I think maybe the whole edition should be retconned as "Elminster awoke, realizing it was all just a very bad dream...", and then what little 'good' came out of it, slowly sift back in over time (primordials{?} and the Warlock knights, merge the Abeir material with Maztica, the Eminence of Araunt, maybe the Dread Rings... but for some reason I picture all Thayans with Jaimacan accents now..., etc.) |
| CorellonsDevout |
Posted - 05 Nov 2016 : 15:41:00
Lol well I am glad they decided to bring them all back, but yeah, that was an odd move. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 05 Nov 2016 : 15:19:45
quote:
Originally posted by CorellonsDevout
We had an explanation for some of them, but others just...were no longer there. Perhaps they just did away with them, as a way of "skimming down", the number of gods?
Yeah, the 4E designers decided there were too many gods. So they rolled some into others, ignored some, lazily killed a few... And then intro'ed some new ones, because surely a setting with too many gods needs more, right? |
| CorellonsDevout |
Posted - 05 Nov 2016 : 01:16:22
Weird, I never noticed that Rillifane wasn't listed, as I assumed the Seldarine remained largely untouched during the Spellplague, but in looking t the FRCG 4e, I see that Rillifane is indeed missing. That is very strange. Aedrie isn't, either, but both are listed in the Sword Coast Adventurer's Guide.
All the deities have been returned in 5e. Those who were "dead" or "missing" in 4e are now back. We had an explanation for some of them, but others just...were no longer there. Perhaps they just did away with them, as a way of "skimming down", the number of gods?
Personally, I'm glad they've all been returned. |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 05 Nov 2016 : 00:49:50
quote:
Originally posted by Diffan
I guess we should throw in the Drow deities like Eilistraee.
I was thinking that, but they did disappear several years before the spellplague, just like the dwarven deities that passed. So, they don't necessarily count as gone because of the spellplague. Granted, I was already considering them as well though and a way to work them into what I was thinking. |
| Diffan |
Posted - 05 Nov 2016 : 00:15:24
I guess we should throw in the Drow deities like Eilistraee. |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 04 Nov 2016 : 21:06:02
Oh, and because I'm a dumb butt, I forgot the main one... Mystra... oddly, even though Cyric was "locked away" or somesuch, he still was part of the listed pantheon, so he must have still had a priesthood.
So, now we're at the following "gods" missing
Mystra, Savras the All-Seeing, Deneir, Talos, Auppenser, Helm, Tyr, Lathander, Gargauth, Finder, Gwaeron Windstrom, Ubtao/Qotal, Ulutiu, Aerdrie Faenya, Rillifane Rallathil ... also... the Mulhorandi Pantheon ... the Maztican Pantheon
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| sleyvas |
Posted - 04 Nov 2016 : 21:02:34
quote:
Originally posted by hashimashadoo
* Luthic of the Orc Pantheon played a key role in The Sentinel. Her affair with Grumbar prevented Shar from merging the Shadowfell with Toril.
* Eldath was mentioned as having been demoted from goddess to Primal Spirit, as were the Earthmother, Nobanion and several others venerated as gods.
* A temple to Shaundakul was central in the 4e Lair Assault Temple of the Sky God.
* Ubtao was in the 4e Campaign Guide as the entity who won the Dawn War for the gods.
This is the detail I was hoping for... where were the deities listed in something else during 4e that would come out. However, some of what you list though doesn't mean that those gods were around for the spellplague "era". Ubtao may have been noted as being in the world previously, but that doesn't mean he still was.
Were priests of Shaundakul in that temple in that adventure (can't find anything online about it) or was it possibly a closed down temple?
So, now we're at the following "gods" missing
Savras the All-Seeing, Deneir, Talos, Auppenser, Helm, Tyr, Lathander, Gargauth, Finder, Gwaeron Windstrom, Ubtao/Qotal, Ulutiu, Aerdrie Faenya, Rillifane Rallathil ... also... the Mulhorandi Pantheon ... the Maztican Pantheon
then the following are demoted/changed from god to either "Primal Spirit" or "Archfey" status. I'm going to assume from this without more 4e rules under my belt that they could no longer have clerics? They probably could have druids? Correct me on this if I'm wrong. If so, then their "god" piece of themselves may have been temporarily separated from the primal spirit/archfey piece (or in terms that some have used... they lost the "god" feat for a while)?
Lurue, Nobanion
Also, a lot of the "beast cults" that were under Rillifane are listed as primal spirits or archfey
*********below from Dragon 376 Sarifal Article sidebar for the earthmother****
Other sources for primal evocations include, but
are not limited to, the following primal spirits and
archfey:
Primal Spirits: Ouroboros the World Serpent,
Magnar the Bear, Remnis the Eagle, Quorlinn the
Raven, Amarok the Wolf, and Nobanion the Lion.
Archfey: Relkath of the Infinite Branches, Lurue
the Unicorn Queen, Verenestra the Oak Princess,
Sarula Iliene the Nixie Queen, and Aurilandür the
Frost Sprite Queen. |
| Diffan |
Posted - 04 Nov 2016 : 14:10:09
From the excerpt of Temple of the Sky God:
"You have journeyed to a temple of Shaundakul in the foothills outside the Cormyrean city of Arabel to meet with Cadellos Erethond. The aged high priest of Shaundakul seeks heroes to undertake a journey on behalf of his god, the Rider of the Winds. Cadellos and the acolytes have watched you compete against other adventurers in bouts of strength and skill, for they want only the most capable adventurers. You have defeated all your rivals, and now stand before the senior priest to receive your reward...
"Before you stand the legendary Mounts of the Winds. If you would venture into the sky and face its perils, you will need their assistance. Choose your mounts, champions of Shaundakul, and best of luck in your quest." |
| hashimashadoo |
Posted - 04 Nov 2016 : 13:23:42
* Luthic of the Orc Pantheon played a key role in The Sentinel. Her affair with Grumbar prevented Shar from merging the Shadowfell with Toril.
* Eldath was mentioned as having been demoted from goddess to Primal Spirit, as were the Earthmother, Nobanion and several others venerated as gods.
* A temple to Shaundakul was central in the 4e Lair Assault Temple of the Sky God.
* Ubtao was in the 4e Campaign Guide as the entity who won the Dawn War for the gods. |
| Irennan |
Posted - 03 Nov 2016 : 18:31:04
Selune is a purely Torilian deity (the source is "On Hallowed Ground", the 2e Planescape/Multiverse sourcebook entirely dedicated to deities--therefore the main source if you want to know about deities in relation to their cults and existence in multiple worlds).
For all that we know, humans didn't even exist in Faerie/Tintageer (elven homeworld from which they came to Toril), so--if you really want to go that route--Selune should be an aspect of Sehanine at best (but that too creates problems, since Selune was involved in the creation of Toril before Sehanine could enter it, as the existence of deities in multiple worlds is generally due to their followers bringing the cult to different worlds). |
| Diffan |
Posted - 03 Nov 2016 : 18:25:21
Because Selūne isn't just a human deity of Abeir-Toril, that Selūne could have also existed from the world the Seldarine came from. Nothing states that Sehanine couldn't have been an aspect to begin with.
More info on Aspects and what they're about Here |
| Irennan |
Posted - 03 Nov 2016 : 17:56:38
Diffan, it has been long established that Sehanine&Co. came to Toril from another world. Even if they existed in multiple worlds at once (which they surely do), how would it change that they are different entities from the human gods of Toril? |
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