| Author |
 Topic  |
|
sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
12024 Posts |
 Posted - 02 Nov 2016 : 12:48:26
|
I'm just making a list of which deities definitely saw no mention in products during the 4e years because they were either supposedly "gone" or "dead" or just nothing was said about them. At present, I think that includes these. Let me know if I missed any or if some of them were in fact included in something. I'm specifically looking for those who "left" in the year of the spellplague.
Savras the All-Seeing, Deneir, Talos, Auppenser, Helm, Tyr, Lathander, Lurue, Gargauth, ... the Mulhorandi Pantheon
I know Nobanion "reappeared" near the time of the sundering in one of the books, but he was hit by the blue fire wasn't he?
|
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
|
|
Diffan
Great Reader
USA
4460 Posts |
Posted - 02 Nov 2016 : 18:34:23
|
• Eldath
• Finder
• Gwaeron Windstrom
• Lurue
• Nobanion
• Shaundakul
• Ubtao
• Ulutiu
• The Mulhorandi Pantheon
• The Gnome Pantheon
• The Orc Pantheon (save Gruumsh and Obould)
• Aerdrie Faenya
• Rillifane Rallathil
As of most 4e publications these were not listed as deities of any consequence (or perhaps relevance?) to give them domain powers or page time in the books. I can't say if any novel touched upon them because I haven't read many novels from the Spellplague timeline but the ones I have don't detail any of them in any capacity.
EDIT: Sorry had to cut down a lot because the FRCG listed a LOT as Exarchs or living in a specific realms with the greater deities. |
Diffan's NPG Generator: FR NPC Generator |
Edited by - Diffan on 02 Nov 2016 18:57:13 |
 |
|
|
Diffan
Great Reader
USA
4460 Posts |
Posted - 02 Nov 2016 : 18:41:03
|
Some deities were listed, such as in the Neverwinter Campaign Setting that gave you an idea of what Warpriest Domain to choose. Here's that list:
• Angharradh
• Berronar Truesilver
• Garl Glittergold
• Gond
• Grumbar
• Ilmater
• Kelemvor
• Moradin
• Silvanus
• Sune
• Tempus (or Uthgar)
You could also choose these deities for the domain powers
• Torm
• Corellon
• Oghma
• Selûne
The Harper Agent theme allowed you a use of a Harper Pin, which has several abilities listed with deitie's names: Lliira's Grace, Mielikki's Endurance, and Tymora's Luck. It doesn't say if these are just names added because they've always been there or if they're actually active deities in the Realms. |
Diffan's NPG Generator: FR NPC Generator |
|
|
|
Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 02 Nov 2016 : 20:00:36
|
I could have sworn there was 'something' about Savras when all that Spellplague/Cyric-killing-Mystra stuff went down, but I don't recall what. All three* of Mystra's 'undergods' were accounted for, IIRC.
*Savras, Azuth, and Velsharoon |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
|
Edited by - Markustay on 02 Nov 2016 20:03:37 |
|
|
|
The Masked Mage
Great Reader
USA
2420 Posts |
Posted - 02 Nov 2016 : 20:27:38
|
| Cannot recommend enough that you totally ignore every word about gods printed in 4th E material. :) It was entirely "unRealmsian" and has rightfully been undone. |
|
|
|
Diffan
Great Reader
USA
4460 Posts |
Posted - 02 Nov 2016 : 20:29:48
|
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
I could have sworn there was 'something' about Savras when all that Spellplague/Cyric-killing-Mystra stuff went down, but I don't recall what. All three* of Mystra's 'undergods' were accounted for, IIRC.
*Savras, Azuth, and Velsharoon
Yep, when Cyric killed Mystra it exploded Dwemoheart to bits and destroyed Azuth and Velsharoon and sent Savras into the Astral Plane IIRC. |
Diffan's NPG Generator: FR NPC Generator |
|
|
|
Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3811 Posts |
Posted - 02 Nov 2016 : 20:53:00
|
| Azuth wasn't destroyed, he (conveniently) landed in the 9 Hells, where Asmodeus absorbed his divinity. Turns out he didn't do a very good job at that, tho, since Azuth survived and would later (post-Sund) escape him. |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
|
|
|
Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 02 Nov 2016 : 21:47:56
|
Sadly, because of the nature of much of the 4e 'lore', I picture Asmodeus farting and one his archdevil henchman saying, "Daaaaamn... that sounded wet!" and then both chuckling because thats the kind of stuff fiends find funny...
... and neither one noticing Azuth 'slipped out the back door' and ran just as fast he could (and thinking, "I'm going to need a LOT of therapy after that!")  |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
|
|
|
|
Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3811 Posts |
Posted - 02 Nov 2016 : 21:52:35
|
| Azuth's return, along with many other gods, is 5e lore tho. I haven't read the Devil You Know (by Erin Evans) yet, but I've heard that she did a good job at making Azuth's return happen. Which can't be said for most other gods (the lore for their return is that Ao brought them back, that they were in fact alive somehow and people didn't know until they re-emerged, or that no one knows how). |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
|
|
|
The Masked Mage
Great Reader
USA
2420 Posts |
Posted - 03 Nov 2016 : 10:11:37
|
I think the easiest way to look at it is that their "return" was not a return at all. They never left. We just spent a few years listening to the blatherings of someone who didn't know much about the goings and comings of gods. Not hard to imagine as that would be most anyone.
Call it the cult of the Clueless. :)
I might be wrong, but I don't think many people were overly attached to the system/stories of 4th E. so ignoring them should be simple for most. If you are among those who for whatever reason liked 4th E then good luck - I recommend you focus on your aberrations and primordials and leave the gods as too mysterious to understand. |
|
|
|
Diffan
Great Reader
USA
4460 Posts |
Posted - 03 Nov 2016 : 13:53:31
|
quote:
Originally posted by The Masked Mage
I might be wrong, but I don't think many people were overly attached to the system/stories of 4th E. so ignoring them should be simple for most. If you are among those who for whatever reason liked 4th E then good luck - I recommend you focus on your aberrations and primordials and leave the gods as too mysterious to understand.
Nah, what 4e did was actually pretty good IMO. Killing of the single deity with the power to manipulate ALL magic in the ENTIRE world. Yeah that's dumb as hell. Now HOW they killed her off...again....that was dumb too.
Killing off Helm in a grudge match with Tyr was pretty stupid but seriously, how many "Gods of Justice" does a world honestly need? You've got Tyr, Torm, Helm, Bahamut....C'mon. I was happy that Tyr supposedly sacrificed himself in a blaze of glory attacking the Nine Hells and that Helms divinity was stored into his weapon.
I completely ignored the Drow pantheon culling because 1). I just have no interest in Drow deities and pretty much dismissed Eilistraee's death altogether.
I was perfectly fine with some deities revealing themselves to be other Aspects such as Talos/Gruumsh. Thought it added another dimension to their character as a power grab for more worshipers.
I liked that Amanuator/Lathander were the same. Put an end to the Three-Faced Sun heresy.
everything else, like the culling of evil Dwarf deities or what happened to Azuth, Denier, Velsharoon, etc were....meh *shrugs*. I just didn't really care one way or the other. These deities have had almost no impact on any games I ever ran in the Realms, were never sought after by anyone in my group, never really discussed in length in any novel except maybe Denier from R.A. Salvatore's The Cleric Quintet series. They could've fallen off the face of the world and I doubt I'd even bat an eye.
|
Diffan's NPG Generator: FR NPC Generator |
|
|
|
Diffan
Great Reader
USA
4460 Posts |
Posted - 03 Nov 2016 : 13:55:49
|
quote:
Originally posted by The Masked Mage
Cannot recommend enough that you totally ignore every word about gods printed in 4th E material. :) It was entirely "unRealmsian" and has rightfully been undone.
Which made about as much sense as a washing a car with a bucket full of mud. |
Diffan's NPG Generator: FR NPC Generator |
|
|
|
Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3811 Posts |
Posted - 03 Nov 2016 : 14:02:51
|
quote:
Originally posted by Diffan
I was perfectly fine with some deities revealing themselves to be other Aspects such as Talos/Gruumsh. Thought it added another dimension to their character as a power grab for more worshipers.
Setting opinions aside, the problem is that it was flat out a rercon, not a "reveal", ignoring one of the main points of the history of the elves and their deities.
Also, personally, I don't think that grabbing for worshipers adds any particular depth to thier character. |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
|
|
|
Diffan
Great Reader
USA
4460 Posts |
Posted - 03 Nov 2016 : 15:31:13
|
quote:
Originally posted by Irennan
quote:
Originally posted by Diffan
I was perfectly fine with some deities revealing themselves to be other Aspects such as Talos/Gruumsh. Thought it added another dimension to their character as a power grab for more worshipers.
Setting opinions aside, the problem is that it was flat out a rercon, not a "reveal", ignoring one of the main points of the history of the elves and their deities.
What, specifically, about Sehanine being an aspect of Selûne retcons what was previously established. Do we with 100% of certainly know how Sehanine was created and by whom or with what process? Do you know what an Aspect evendors represents?
quote:
Also, personally, I don't think that grabbing for worshipers adds any particular depth to thier character.
To each their own. I do. |
Diffan's NPG Generator: FR NPC Generator |
|
|
|
Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3811 Posts |
Posted - 03 Nov 2016 : 15:45:06
|
quote:
Originally posted by Diffan
What, specifically, about Sehanine being an aspect of Selûne retcons what was previously established. Do we with 100% of certainly know how Sehanine was created and by whom or with what process? Do you know what an Aspect evendors represents?
Sehanine and all the elven pantheon are interloper deities. They came along the moon/sun elves from another world, namely Faerie/Tintageer. All elves of any kind and all their deities are (Eilistraee and Vhaeraun, for example, wandered Toril after the fall of Araushnee, and after the Fey creator race let elves enter Toril for the first time--mostly green/dark elves). When they came to Faerun, Selune already existed.
That's why it's a retcon.
|
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
Edited by - Irennan on 03 Nov 2016 15:48:07 |
|
|
|
sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
12024 Posts |
Posted - 03 Nov 2016 : 16:32:09
|
quote:
Originally posted by Diffan
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
I could have sworn there was 'something' about Savras when all that Spellplague/Cyric-killing-Mystra stuff went down, but I don't recall what. All three* of Mystra's 'undergods' were accounted for, IIRC.
*Savras, Azuth, and Velsharoon
Yep, when Cyric killed Mystra it exploded Dwemoheart to bits and destroyed Azuth and Velsharoon and sent Savras into the Astral Plane IIRC.
No, GHotR says "the plane itself disintegrates at once, destroying Savras and sending the gods Azuth and Velsharoon reeling into the endless Astral Plane".
So, in theory if Dweomerheart ACTUALLY was destroyed then Savras was supposedly destroyed. Personally, I'm trying to work another angle. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
|
|
|
CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 03 Nov 2016 : 16:51:09
|
| Lathander became Amaunataur, so while Lath himself wasn't mentioned, Amaunataur was. |
Sweet water and light laughter |
|
|
|
sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
12024 Posts |
Posted - 03 Nov 2016 : 16:54:00
|
quote:
Originally posted by Diffan
• Eldath
• Finder
• Gwaeron Windstrom
• Lurue
• Nobanion
• Shaundakul
• Ubtao
• Ulutiu
• The Mulhorandi Pantheon
• The Gnome Pantheon
• The Orc Pantheon (save Gruumsh and Obould)
• Aerdrie Faenya
• Rillifane Rallathil
As of most 4e publications these were not listed as deities of any consequence (or perhaps relevance?) to give them domain powers or page time in the books. I can't say if any novel touched upon them because I haven't read many novels from the Spellplague timeline but the ones I have don't detail any of them in any capacity.
EDIT: Sorry had to cut down a lot because the FRCG listed a LOT as Exarchs or living in a specific realms with the greater deities.
Thank you much Diffan, the gnome and orc pantheon are listed at least partially as Exarches, and I'm not going to delve that too deeply (at this point). Interesting point.... Ubtao who is referenced in GHotR as the "feathered serpent" or Qotal was gone.
Savras the All-Seeing, Deneir, Talos, Auppenser, Helm, Tyr, Lathander, Lurue, Gargauth, Eldath, Finder, Gwaeron Windstrom, Shaundakul (who was a Bedine god, note... and I suspect the bedine gods to be Primordials), Ubtao, Ulutiu, Aerdrie Faenya, Rillifane Rallathil ... also... the Mulhorandi Pantheon
Hmmm, that opens up some other possibilities. Rillifane in particular is interesting to me because he like Ulutiu has a lot of beast cults and such. You know, I hadn't really looked at it much, but I wonder what snow elves would think of Ulutiu?
Aerdrie works for me as well, since she's an avariel goddess.
Thank you very much.
|
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
|
|
|
sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
12024 Posts |
Posted - 03 Nov 2016 : 16:55:01
|
quote:
Originally posted by CorellonsDevout
Lathander became Amaunataur, so while Lath himself wasn't mentioned, Amaunataur was.
Only if you assume that they truly are the same individual, and not someone else taking the place while he was gone. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
|
|
|
sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
12024 Posts |
Posted - 03 Nov 2016 : 16:57:32
|
| BTW, some of what I'm wondering is if these gods that disappeared didn't transfer to Abeir, just like some primordials transferred to Toril. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
|
|
|
CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 03 Nov 2016 : 17:05:36
|
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
quote:
Originally posted by CorellonsDevout
Lathander became Amaunataur, so while Lath himself wasn't mentioned, Amaunataur was.
Only if you assume that they truly are the same individual, and not someone else taking the place while he was gone.
It's possible, especially since as of 5e, they are listed as separate deities. Amaunataur is the god of the sun, and Lath is the god of dawn and renewal.
There was the division of the Lathanderan faith about the Deliverance (where it was said Lath would become Amaun, and some believed it, others saw it as heresy. I remember that from the Twilight Wars). |
Sweet water and light laughter |
|
|
|
Diffan
Great Reader
USA
4460 Posts |
Posted - 03 Nov 2016 : 17:13:35
|
quote:
Originally posted by Irennan
quote:
Originally posted by Diffan
What, specifically, about Sehanine being an aspect of Selûne retcons what was previously established. Do we with 100% of certainly know how Sehanine was created and by whom or with what process? Do you know what an Aspect represents?
Sehanine and all the elven pantheon are interloper deities. They came along the moon/sun elves from another world, namely Faerie/Tintageer. All elves of any kind and all their deities are (Eilistraee and Vhaeraun, for example, wandered Toril after the fall of Araushnee, and after the Fey creator race let elves enter Toril for the first time--mostly green/dark elves). When they came to Faerun, Selune already existed.
That's why it's a retcon.
So you automatically assume that Selûne cannot exist in more than one world/dimension/plane? Is there any place in Canon that says otherwise? Also what does that say about Lloth, Tiamat, Corellon, Gruumsh who've existed in multiple planes across multiple worlds?
|
Diffan's NPG Generator: FR NPC Generator |
|
|
|
CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 03 Nov 2016 : 17:27:55
|
| The gods can exist in multiple planes/dimensions (many of them do), but I think it's more about them being multiple aspects on the *same* plane (in this case, Toril). |
Sweet water and light laughter |
|
|
|
Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3811 Posts |
Posted - 03 Nov 2016 : 17:56:38
|
| Diffan, it has been long established that Sehanine&Co. came to Toril from another world. Even if they existed in multiple worlds at once (which they surely do), how would it change that they are different entities from the human gods of Toril? |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
Edited by - Irennan on 03 Nov 2016 17:57:11 |
|
|
|
Diffan
Great Reader
USA
4460 Posts |
Posted - 03 Nov 2016 : 18:25:21
|
Because Selûne isn't just a human deity of Abeir-Toril, that Selûne could have also existed from the world the Seldarine came from. Nothing states that Sehanine couldn't have been an aspect to begin with.
More info on Aspects and what they're about Here |
Diffan's NPG Generator: FR NPC Generator |
|
|
|
Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3811 Posts |
Posted - 03 Nov 2016 : 18:31:04
|
Selune is a purely Torilian deity (the source is "On Hallowed Ground", the 2e Planescape/Multiverse sourcebook entirely dedicated to deities--therefore the main source if you want to know about deities in relation to their cults and existence in multiple worlds).
For all that we know, humans didn't even exist in Faerie/Tintageer (elven homeworld from which they came to Toril), so--if you really want to go that route--Selune should be an aspect of Sehanine at best (but that too creates problems, since Selune was involved in the creation of Toril before Sehanine could enter it, as the existence of deities in multiple worlds is generally due to their followers bringing the cult to different worlds). |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
Edited by - Irennan on 03 Nov 2016 18:35:41 |
|
|
|
hashimashadoo
Master of Realmslore
United Kingdom
1155 Posts |
Posted - 04 Nov 2016 : 13:23:42
|
* Luthic of the Orc Pantheon played a key role in The Sentinel. Her affair with Grumbar prevented Shar from merging the Shadowfell with Toril.
* Eldath was mentioned as having been demoted from goddess to Primal Spirit, as were the Earthmother, Nobanion and several others venerated as gods.
* A temple to Shaundakul was central in the 4e Lair Assault Temple of the Sky God.
* Ubtao was in the 4e Campaign Guide as the entity who won the Dawn War for the gods. |
When life turns it's back on you...sneak attack for extra damage.
Head admin of the FR wiki:
https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/ |
|
|
|
Diffan
Great Reader
USA
4460 Posts |
Posted - 04 Nov 2016 : 14:10:09
|
From the excerpt of Temple of the Sky God:
"You have journeyed to a temple of Shaundakul in the foothills outside the Cormyrean city of Arabel to meet with Cadellos Erethond. The aged high priest of Shaundakul seeks heroes to undertake a journey on behalf of his god, the Rider of the Winds. Cadellos and the acolytes have watched you compete against other adventurers in bouts of strength and skill, for they want only the most capable adventurers. You have defeated all your rivals, and now stand before the senior priest to receive your reward...
"Before you stand the legendary Mounts of the Winds. If you would venture into the sky and face its perils, you will need their assistance. Choose your mounts, champions of Shaundakul, and best of luck in your quest." |
Diffan's NPG Generator: FR NPC Generator |
|
|
|
sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
12024 Posts |
Posted - 04 Nov 2016 : 21:02:34
|
quote:
Originally posted by hashimashadoo
* Luthic of the Orc Pantheon played a key role in The Sentinel. Her affair with Grumbar prevented Shar from merging the Shadowfell with Toril.
* Eldath was mentioned as having been demoted from goddess to Primal Spirit, as were the Earthmother, Nobanion and several others venerated as gods.
* A temple to Shaundakul was central in the 4e Lair Assault Temple of the Sky God.
* Ubtao was in the 4e Campaign Guide as the entity who won the Dawn War for the gods.
This is the detail I was hoping for... where were the deities listed in something else during 4e that would come out. However, some of what you list though doesn't mean that those gods were around for the spellplague "era". Ubtao may have been noted as being in the world previously, but that doesn't mean he still was.
Were priests of Shaundakul in that temple in that adventure (can't find anything online about it) or was it possibly a closed down temple?
So, now we're at the following "gods" missing
Savras the All-Seeing, Deneir, Talos, Auppenser, Helm, Tyr, Lathander, Gargauth, Finder, Gwaeron Windstrom, Ubtao/Qotal, Ulutiu, Aerdrie Faenya, Rillifane Rallathil ... also... the Mulhorandi Pantheon ... the Maztican Pantheon
then the following are demoted/changed from god to either "Primal Spirit" or "Archfey" status. I'm going to assume from this without more 4e rules under my belt that they could no longer have clerics? They probably could have druids? Correct me on this if I'm wrong. If so, then their "god" piece of themselves may have been temporarily separated from the primal spirit/archfey piece (or in terms that some have used... they lost the "god" feat for a while)?
Lurue, Nobanion
Also, a lot of the "beast cults" that were under Rillifane are listed as primal spirits or archfey
*********below from Dragon 376 Sarifal Article sidebar for the earthmother****
Other sources for primal evocations include, but
are not limited to, the following primal spirits and
archfey:
Primal Spirits: Ouroboros the World Serpent,
Magnar the Bear, Remnis the Eagle, Quorlinn the
Raven, Amarok the Wolf, and Nobanion the Lion.
Archfey: Relkath of the Infinite Branches, Lurue
the Unicorn Queen, Verenestra the Oak Princess,
Sarula Iliene the Nixie Queen, and Aurilandür the
Frost Sprite Queen. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
|
|
|
sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
12024 Posts |
Posted - 04 Nov 2016 : 21:06:02
|
Oh, and because I'm a dumb butt, I forgot the main one... Mystra... oddly, even though Cyric was "locked away" or somesuch, he still was part of the listed pantheon, so he must have still had a priesthood.
So, now we're at the following "gods" missing
Mystra, Savras the All-Seeing, Deneir, Talos, Auppenser, Helm, Tyr, Lathander, Gargauth, Finder, Gwaeron Windstrom, Ubtao/Qotal, Ulutiu, Aerdrie Faenya, Rillifane Rallathil ... also... the Mulhorandi Pantheon ... the Maztican Pantheon
|
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
|
|
|
Diffan
Great Reader
USA
4460 Posts |
Posted - 05 Nov 2016 : 00:15:24
|
| I guess we should throw in the Drow deities like Eilistraee. |
Diffan's NPG Generator: FR NPC Generator |
|
|
|
Topic |
|
Gods not mentioned during spellplague years
