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Originally posted by Ayrik

Demons and fiends are often malformed, terrifying, and highly variable in appearance.

I'm not personally familiar with Lovecraft's Shadow over Innsmouth, but results from a quick google image search look to me more like half-preserved half-decayed worm-ridden undead than like tentacle-faced aquatic grotesqueries. Zombies, ghasts, ghouls, mummies, or perhaps some little liches might be suitable substitutions - especially if they are variant forms derived from decidedly non-human creatures.

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Originally posted by TBeholder

Since it's apparently the necromancy season...

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Originally posted by Baltas

Auril also fought against Aerdrie Faenya in the Lolth vs Corellon war (since 2e actually), and Auril was also said to be exiled from Arborea/Arvandor after that(also actually from 2e).

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Where this comes from? Source?
Seeing how neither Aerdrie Faenya nor anyone of the Seldarine is listed in her foes.
The Seldarine don't like her, but they don't like her along with the rest of Gods of Fury who keep messing up their lawns.

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Originally posted by Baltas

Auril also fought against Aerdrie Faenya in the Lolth vs Corellon war (since 2e actually), and Auril was also said to be exiled from Arborea/Arvandor after that(also actually from 2e).

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Originally posted by Wrigley

I haven't got my head around this one yet. I have seen some theories about Ssharstrune and Shekinester at these halls but to me they are still only minor gods from old pantheon. Those information we have are full of alegories and myths so you have to delve deep to realy get to unlock the information within. If you suppose that they might also be entirely different dieties in guise than that pool is realy deep...
Each time I delve there i find more information about entirely different subject than about what I was looking for. Last time it was about Imaskari while I was looking about Netheril :-)

To derail this a little back to original direction. Does anybody have more clear picture about how might batrachi land empire look like in it's haydays? I can see they had a lot of slaves (mainly humans) and lot of minions (bullywugs, sivs, dopplegangers, ...) who did their work (talking about batrachi lords). They should want to live in humid/wet and warm climate so marches and swamps that were in place of later Sea of Fallen stars should do fine. We know nothing about their culture and architecture except some altars of Ramenos and obelisks in seas.

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Originally posted by Wrigley

It seems to me like we are highjacking this thread a little :-)

Ilithids are batrachi in my book.
Jazirian is former Aearee god who moved to sarrukh pantheon, mated with Shekinester and is father of Parrafaire (idea based on Monster Mythology p.97).
Actualy I have based all four creator races as planars that settled Faerun. Batrachi=Abyss, Sarrukh=Baator (no Nine hells at that time), Aearee=Celestia, Fey=Beastlands/Arborea
Batrachi are remembered as Obyriths in Abyss and some Sarrukh gods still rule in Nine Hells...

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Of all the emergent aspects of the Great Scaled One, two deities in particular attracted the worship of most nagas: Ssharstrune and Shekinester. The former embodied the principles of curiosity, destruction, and possessiveness that had precipitated the World Serpent’s fragmentation. The latter, known as the Naga Queen, became the keeper of the knowledge and wisdom originally held by the World Serpent, preserved within the eternal flame that she guarded.

After the fall of Mhairshaulk, both Ssharstrune and Jazirian, another fragment of the World Serpent, began to court Shekinester. The Naga Queen eventually chose Jazirian and became pregnant by him. Enraged by this decision, Ssharstrune attacked Shekinester, and she was forced to swallow him. In so doing, the Naga Queen took into herself the same destructive element that had fragmented the World Serpent in the first place. As a result, she acquired five guises: the Acquirer, the Empowerer, the Seeker, the Weaver, and the Preserver. This event was accompanied by a fivefold division in the naga race, forming the five major subraces now known as dark nagas, guardian nagas, iridescent nagas, spirit nagas, and water nagas.

Upon giving birth to Parrafaire, the Naga Prince, Shekinester expelled Ssharstrune’s remains and instructed her offspring to hide away the destructive force that the corpse embodied forever, so that her five-fold aspect could not actually divide her into five separate goddesses. Parrafaire complied with her wishes, and now both he and his mother are venerated as guardians of the naga race.

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Originally posted by Baltas

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Originally posted by Wrigley

In my take of the realms Batrachi are collective name for all those water-based creatures where most known are Batrachi lords from their campaign on land who later became Slaadi and bullywug who venerated Ramenos. More water-dependant batrachi remained undisputed rulers over the seas and remain until this day mostly unknown by humans. Another well known example are Ilithids who were tasked with conquering Astral plane. Their Infinite Empire fell under rebellion of their human slaves that were transformed by their living in astral sea to race now known as Giths. Most terrible creatures spawned by batrachi were Phaerim used originaly as weapon against Fey but also used to fight Sarrukh later on in the same area.

Regarding Aearee I really like that thread by Gray (link in post above) and in my realms their biggest legacy are planar angelic beings and of course all bird-like creatures on Faerun.

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I think that angelic beings are at least partly created by, or connected to Sarrukh. Jazirian is connected to 7 Heavens of Celestia, and portrayed as the opposite of Asmodeus, and Seraphs, highest angels in mythos are flamming serpents.

I guess possibly angels/celestials were a co-creation of good aligned aearee and Coalts(transformed good Sarrukh).

Also, I see you also believe the theory Batrachi are connected to Ilithids.

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Originally posted by Wrigley

In my take of the realms Batrachi are collective name for all those water-based creatures where most known are Batrachi lords from their campaign on land who later became Slaadi and bullywug who venerated Ramenos. More water-dependant batrachi remained undisputed rulers over the seas and remain until this day mostly unknown by humans. Another well known example are Ilithids who were tasked with conquering Astral plane. Their Infinite Empire fell under rebellion of their human slaves that were transformed by their living in astral sea to race now known as Giths. Most terrible creatures spawned by batrachi were Phaerim used originaly as weapon against Fey but also used to fight Sarrukh later on in the same area.

Regarding Aearee I really like that thread by Gray (link in post above) and in my realms their biggest legacy are planar angelic beings and of course all bird-like creatures on Faerun.

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Originally posted by sleyvas

I like where you're going with the cataloguing what might be related to the batrachi and what they created. I think that the idea of a "Serpent Kingdoms" type supplement, but for what the Batrachi created, could prove to be a very interesting thing indeed. I venture that Tako, Krakens, bullywugs, dopplegangers, locathah, sivs, grippli, kopru, Slaad, froghemoths, and Kuo-Toa MAY have all come from the Batrachi civilization.

Similarly, the question of the Aearee civilization would be interesting to see some expounding upon. Especially given that we know that reptilian beings with feathers may have had ties to the Aeree. They also created the wyverns. I'd venture that Couatls may have come from the Aearee, and that Maztica may have held a large Aearee culture. Of course, we all believe that aarakocra and kenku came from the Aearee, but what about various winged reptilian races (besides draconic ones like dragonborn). . Raptorans from races of the wild would also fit. Also, more bestial creatures such as giant owls, giant eagles, rocs, etc.... might they have ties to the Aearee?

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Originally posted by sleyvas

I like where you're going with the cataloguing what might be related to the batrachi and what they created. I think that the idea of a "Serpent Kingdoms" type supplement, but for what the Batrachi created, could prove to be a very interesting thing indeed. I venture that Tako, Krakens, bullywugs, dopplegangers, locathah, sivs, grippli, kopru, Slaad, froghemoths, and Kuo-Toa MAY have all come from the Batrachi civilization.

Similarly, the question of the Aearee civilization would be interesting to see some expounding upon. Especially given that we know that reptilian beings with feathers may have had ties to the Aeree. They also created the wyverns. I'd venture that Couatls may have come from the Aearee, and that Maztica may have held a large Aearee culture. Of course, we all believe that aarakocra and kenku came from the Aearee, but what about various winged reptilian races (besides draconic ones like dragonborn). . Raptorans from races of the wild would also fit. Also, more bestial creatures such as giant owls, giant eagles, rocs, etc.... might they have ties to the Aearee?

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Originally posted by George Krashos

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Originally posted by Seethyr

What race/region do you think would make for the best imitation of Lovecraft's Shadow over Innsmouth? I'm playing with the idea of surprising my players.

Here are my thoughts...

1. The Kuo-Toa look the most like the Deep Ones, but I don't know if they are quite Cthulu-esque enough...

2. The Shalarin in the Sea of Corynactis already worship Dagon, but geographically they aren't close enough to mainland Faerun to allow for an Innsmouth type town (maybe set it in Maztica?)

How could I adapt the Innsmouth look then to the town's inhabitants? Interbreeding doesn't really seem to be an option. (should I use the magical experimentation handwave?)

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Two words: Undersea Illithids.

-- George Krashos

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Originally posted by sleyvas

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Originally posted by LordofBones

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Originally posted by Baltas


Actually, in the Realms, according to Faiths and Pantheons pagw 220 Panzuriel is merelly an alias of Umberlee. This suggests Umberlee destroyed Panzuriel's Realms aspect, or subsumed/absorbed Panzuriel in the Realms.

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That's a bit difficult to believe; Panzuriel is an Intermediate Power while Umberlee's only a lesser deity.

I'd personally suggest that while Umberlee is heavily worshipped, Panzuriel's one of those old gods revered by ancient sea monsters. He's more interested in having his revenge on Deep Sashelas, while Umberlee's more a nature god. Mostly, I see Panzuriel as one of those really creepy, monstrous gods; the type that has Umberlee teaming up with Valkur and DS to restrain.

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remember, there's power levels outside the realms and power levels in the realms. A deity might have great power in the realms and minor power outside.... or the reverse (great power outside the realms, but within the realmspace crystal sphere they're considered little more than a demi-god).

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Originally posted by Baltas
Well, possibly, although the divine power levels, might not be the same in the Realms, as outside them. Mielikki and Loviatar were/are demigods outside the Realms, and Tyr is a Greater Power in the Realms, but Intermediate or Greater outside of them. And on the other hand, outside the Realms Bast was a lessser goddess, but now, even after merging with Felidae and Zandilar the Dancer, is a demigoddess, persumably due to her specific situation, and her worship being partially absorbed into that of Shar.
Umberlee's companion, Auril, was a Intermediate Goddess outside the Realms as the Queen of Air and Darkness, but in the Realms, was originally a lesser goddess, or even demigoddess(although to be fair, even in 1e, it was said Auril was significantly drained from power by Talos, if I remember right), only becoming again a Intermediate Deity in 4e.

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Here are some brief notes I penned a while back on the batrachi empires. I agree that it would be great to see an article or two on the creator races but WotC these days is more interested in the present than the ancient past.

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Kolophoon, Boitumelo, and Nadezhda, along with Zhoukoudien and Pourounkorokale are all Batrachi Empires. I had briefly mentioned Zhoukoudien in my Candlekeep IV article, but I wanted there to be multiple batrachi nations represented on the map so the names were all pulled out of my head.

Pourounkorokale is the longest lived of the batrachi nations and existed entirely underneath the southern waters of the Black Sea (modern day Shining Sea). From their crystalline cities the wise tako ruled over tribes of kuo-toa, locathah, and other species of aquatic batrachi. Though Pourounkorokale survived the fall of great Batrachi Empires, their race became nearly extinct with the ensuing war against conquering seawurms and the ultimate betrayal by their sahuagin allies. Survivors fled through the Strait of Lopango to new homes in the Sea of Corynactis (west of modern day Maztica).

The domain of Boitumelo was centered on the ancient Narrow Sea (in modern day Anauroch). This realm of loosely confederated nations was peopled by tribes of kappa, sivs, and grippli.

The lands surrounding and beneath the modern day Wizards Reach and Alamber Sea were the domain of the Kolophoon Sovereignty. Here aboleths ruled supreme over their kopru and froghemoth servitors and it is thought that these primordial batrachi opened gates to the Far Realm unleashing the first aberrations upon Abeir-Toril.

The largest of the batrachi surface nations, Zhoukoudien, was ruled by an unnamed amphibian species whose descendants became bullywugs. Their wars against the giants are legendary and it is thought that their misguided actions led to the Tearfall and the ensuing Seven Turn Winter.

Nadezhda was a great forested region (in modern day Maztica) once populated by human tribes which migrated across the Strait of Lopango to flee enslavement by the Yuan-ti of Mhairshaulk. Their respite was short lived, however, as the human tribes were quickly infiltrated and eventually supplanted by batrachi doppelgangers. Nadezhda ultimately fell to Aearee expansion as that race moved into the region.

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Originally posted by LordofBones

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Originally posted by Baltas

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Originally posted by LordofBones

Krakens already have a racial god - Panzuriel. Umberlee is more associated with natural disasters of the waters than to aquatic creatures; if I had to thematically tie her to anything it would shark monsters, like Pathfinder's cetus.

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Actually, in the Realms, according to Faiths and Pantheons pagw 220 Panzuriel is merelly an alias of Umberlee. This suggests Umberlee destroyed Panzuriel's Realms aspect, or subsumed/absorbed Panzuriel in the Realms.

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That's a bit difficult to believe; Panzuriel is an Intermediate Power while Umberlee's only a lesser deity.

I'd personally suggest that while Umberlee is heavily worshipped, Panzuriel's one of those old gods revered by ancient sea monsters. He's more interested in having his revenge on Deep Sashelas, while Umberlee's more a nature god. Mostly, I see Panzuriel as one of those really creepy, monstrous gods; the type that has Umberlee teaming up with Valkur and DS to restrain.

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Originally posted by dazzlerdal

Purple Rocks does sound like a good candidate for a cthulhu esque adventure but the island is portrayed that way because of the Kraken Society that controls much of what happens there.

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Originally posted by LordofBones

Prior to 4e, Auril and the Queen of Air and Darkness were entirely separate beings. The Queen was corrupted by the Black Diamond and is Titania's sister, Auril seems to be either a friend or daughter of Loki (they share the same Outer Planar realm).

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"She has seen much of her personal power eroded by Talos, as a result, the winters ha grown colder in the last decade, to remind northeners who controls the power of cold"

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When portrayed, Auril appears similar to her Frostmaiden avatar She is a fickle, vain, and evil creature whose cold divine heart remains
untouched by any hint of true love, noble feeling, or honor. She
often toys with those who offend her, trapping them in snow storms and
then driving them insane by tantalizing them with visions of warmth and
the comforts of home before she freezes them to death. Her eternal beauty
is cold and deadly, the flower of womanhood preserved forever in a slab of
arctic ice#8212;with sensibilities to match the ice.

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Icedawn is a silent, gliding apparition of icy hauteur, an impassive figure in
an ornate crown and hooked, spurred armor of opaque, light blue ice.

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The Queen has no corporeal body, but if magically perceived
she appears as a female faerie of terrible, cold beauty, with
bone-white skin, angular features, eyes with a black cornea and
an inner blood-red lens, and a mane of black hair.

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Originally posted by VikingLegion

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Originally posted by Seethyr

What race/region do you think would make for the best imitation of Lovecraft's Shadow over Innsmouth? I'm playing with the idea of surprising my players.

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Some really interesting replies in this thread, let's see if I can add something of worth:

I'd go with a Deepspawn, mainly because it's one of my favorite D&D monsters, but also because it offers a great deal of variable game play based on what the DM wants to do with it. Either it lives in a dry cavern complex under the ocean floor or it's some kind of aquatic adapted, mutant Deepspawn. By consuming both human and kuo-toan genetic material, it is able to mix and match, creating hybrid creatures that are neither one nor the other, but rather a bit of both. So they can appear human for the most part (just as some mutant sahuagin appear as sea elves) but also have some fishy physiology, and will start to degrade/distress if left out of water for too prolonged a period of time. It completely stocks "town X" with its children, who try to emulate normal human behavior (and often fail, leading to their creepy "tells" and other weird actions) and draw more food/wealth into the town that will be curried down to the Deepspawn periodically.

If I knew how to post a picture on this forum I would totally include a Deepspawn pic right now.

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Originally posted by Seethyr

What race/region do you think would make for the best imitation of Lovecraft's Shadow over Innsmouth? I'm playing with the idea of surprising my players.

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Originally posted by LordofBones

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Originally posted by Baltas
Actually, in the Realms, according to Faiths and Pantheons pagw 220 Panzuriel is merelly an alias of Umberlee. This suggests Umberlee destroyed Panzuriel's Realms aspect, or subsumed/absorbed Panzuriel in the Realms.

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That's a bit difficult to believe; Panzuriel is an Intermediate Power while Umberlee's only a lesser deity.

I'd personally suggest that while Umberlee is heavily worshipped, Panzuriel's one of those old gods revered by ancient sea monsters. He's more interested in having his revenge on Deep Sashelas, while Umberlee's more a nature god. Mostly, I see Panzuriel as one of those really creepy, monstrous gods; the type that has Umberlee teaming up with Valkur and DS to restrain.

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Two words: Undersea Illithids.

-- George Krashos

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Originally posted by Baltas

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Originally posted by LordofBones

Krakens already have a racial god - Panzuriel. Umberlee is more associated with natural disasters of the waters than to aquatic creatures; if I had to thematically tie her to anything it would shark monsters, like Pathfinder's cetus.

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Actually, in the Realms, according to Faiths and Pantheons pagw 220 Panzuriel is merelly an alias of Umberlee. This suggests Umberlee destroyed Panzuriel's Realms aspect, or subsumed/absorbed Panzuriel in the Realms.

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Originally posted by Baltas

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Originally posted by LordofBones

Krakens already have a racial god - Panzuriel. Umberlee is more associated with natural disasters of the waters than to aquatic creatures; if I had to thematically tie her to anything it would shark monsters, like Pathfinder's cetus.

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Actually, in the Realms, according to Faiths and Pantheons pagw 220 Panzuriel is merelly an alias of Umberlee. This suggests Umberlee destroyed Panzuriel's Realms aspect, or subsumed/absorbed Panzuriel in the Realms.

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Originally posted by LordofBones

Krakens already have a racial god - Panzuriel. Umberlee is more associated with natural disasters of the waters than to aquatic creatures; if I had to thematically tie her to anything it would shark monsters, like Pathfinder's cetus.

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