| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| slow-wizard |
Posted - 20 Jan 2016 : 13:32:40
Hi guys. This is my first post. I have been an passive member of the community for sometime and i thought it is time to join in the talk.
First of all sorry about my bad english. I hope i'll explain myself well.
I dont know if you talked about it before but i think Khelben's death was one of the worst things (besides spellplague) happened in the Realms in recent years. I mean when i think about Realms and goodly wizards my number one go to guy is (ofcourse) Elminster and Khelben is a close second. I liked him better because the darker tone he had. It made him more realistic.
I always laughed when Khelbens thinly veiled jealousy about Elmisnters magical powers came up in the books. He was one of the iconic characters in the Realms and why did he had to die again? For a lost city no one really cared for.. And blackstaff became the title for wizards? Come on there is only one blackstaff and it does not share his pow.. ahem title (like gandy the grey said :P)
Well you see i liked him alot. This become more of a rant than an actual question. But i had it in me for a looong time hope you sympathize.
What is your take on his death? And also is there anything in the lore before his death that states his life goal was to restore an ancient elven city Or is it a retcon? |
| 30 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| slow-wizard |
Posted - 01 Feb 2016 : 08:34:10
quote:
Originally posted by The Masked Mage
Dying easily and for something stupid that made pretty much no sense at all reminds me of Khelben :D.
One of the good way to describe Khelben's death. Boo for the one who came up with that brillant idea. |
| Irennan |
Posted - 30 Jan 2016 : 21:05:02
Well, she was inserted (even if perhaps she would have just been a high priestess of Eilistraee, instead of being one of the Seven as well). But I really like the how they made her and Laeral very close. |
| Shadowsoul |
Posted - 30 Jan 2016 : 21:00:01
For me Qilue always felt like she just didn't belong. She really felt like she was just inserted. |
| Irennan |
Posted - 30 Jan 2016 : 18:25:43
quote:
Originally posted by The Masked Mage
I personally was never really a Qilue fan. She always struck me a somewhat useless, even in Silverfall - which made no sense. The chosen of 2 goddesses who pretty much single-handedly holds back the pit of slimey-slimes below and Halaster Blackcloak and the Eye's guild and the combined strength of Skullport and the Skulls should be much more badass in my book.
She always got the short end of the stick, and they had her killed without even letting her fight for her life :( |
| The Masked Mage |
Posted - 30 Jan 2016 : 18:07:59
I personally was never really a Qilue fan. She always struck me a somewhat useless, even in Silverfall - which made no sense. The chosen of 2 goddesses who pretty much single-handedly holds back the pit of slimey-slimes below and Halaster Blackcloak and the Eye's guild and the combined strength of Skullport and the Skulls should be much more badass in my book.
Really the only drow who's ever been truly bad-ass is Drizzt - all the others, no matter how powerful they are described to be, die easily and usually its because someone did something stupid. To bring the scroll back to its intent... Dying easily and for something stupid that made pretty much no sense at all reminds me of Khelben :D. |
| Irennan |
Posted - 29 Jan 2016 : 19:49:11
Yeah, this is taken from the product history for the ''Seven Sisters'' book, at the DMsguild
quote:
The fact that there were seven sisters was first noted in FOR4: The Code of the Harpers, and by that time, readers knew about six of them. The missing sister was the drow Qilue, who was first mentioned as a high priestess of a temple of Eilistraee in Dragon #176 (December 1991), coauthored by Ed Greenwood and Steven E. Schend, although her connection to the Seven Sisters wasn't noted at the time.
''The Seven Sisters'' finally completed the tale of the Seven Sisters by putting Qilue into her correct context as the seventh and youngest of the siblings. However, it did far more than that by giving considerable details on all of the sisters, helping to differentiate them and describe who they were as actual people. With each Sister getting about seven pages of text each, The Seven Sisters helped them to become some of the best described characters ever for the Realms.
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| CorellonsDevout |
Posted - 29 Jan 2016 : 19:35:33
Oh, I did not know that. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 29 Jan 2016 : 19:19:29
quote:
Originally posted by CorellonsDevout
It seems like they want all Seven Sisters to remain around...or rather, all Six Sisters. Qilue always seemed to be the "background" sister, because, even though she served both goddesses, I always got the impression she was more of an Eilistraeen than anything. That could be why she has been neglected, other than of course the fact that E herself has been neglected until recent hints suggest she is making a comeback (hopefully).
Keep in mind, also, that Qilué wasn't fully Ed's creation. He created the other six, but the seventh was left unnamed and undescribed, save for a reference to a "dark disaster." It was Steven Schend who came along and made her a drow, and then Ed had to figure out how to explain that for the sourcebook about that sisterhood. Before that sourcebook, the focus was on the other six. Qilué wasn't introduced until well into the 2E era. |
| Irennan |
Posted - 29 Jan 2016 : 18:09:43
quote:
Originally posted by CorellonsDevout
I felt really bad for Laeral when Khelben died. She has been through a lot.
Yeah. And a few years later, she also lost her closest sister. She has indeed been through a lot. |
| CorellonsDevout |
Posted - 29 Jan 2016 : 17:56:38
Yeah, sorry I wasn't clear ^^; I doubt we would get another book like Demi human Deities, but yeah, new NPC followers of V and E (like more from Phalar, the Chosen of Vhaeraun featured in The Adversary) would be nice.
I felt really bad for Laeral when Khelben died. She has been through a lot. |
| Irennan |
Posted - 29 Jan 2016 : 17:38:49
Oh, I see. It seemed weird to me, since you too commented on their return.
I would be happy even with something little, like what they're currently up to, a couple new NPCs making an appearance in some novels (since I think that WotC won't publish any further FR sourcebook), things like that. Either way, this is off-topic.
It would however be awesome, if the whole Waterdeep ''gang'', including Qilué and Khelben, made a comeback. Laeral must be missing them both... |
| CorellonsDevout |
Posted - 29 Jan 2016 : 17:31:24
Oh I know she has made a comeback, along with Vhaeraun, and that they are now working together. What I meant by "comeback (hopefully)" was that she makes a comeback in the lore. More info, as you said. Ed said that she and her brother are back, and she got a brief blurb in the SCAG, but my hope is that we see more, be it in sourcebooks or novels. That would signal a true comeback to me. What Ed revealed was great, and she and her brother got at least a little something in the SCAG, but until I see more, I am still skeptical that she and Vhaeraun will get more than just "yeah, they're back". |
| Irennan |
Posted - 29 Jan 2016 : 17:18:05
quote:
Originally posted by CorellonsDevout
It seems like they want all Seven Sisters to remain around...or rather, all Six Sisters. Qilue always seemed to be the "background" sister, because, even though she served both goddesses, I always got the impression she was more of an Eilistraeen than anything. That could be why she has been neglected, other than of course the fact that E herself has been neglected until recent hints suggest she is making a comeback (hopefully).
Yes, she was in the background, but she was really close to Laeral and in good relationship with the Harpers, so she could easily become more involved. I don't know if they want all the sisters around. Will WotC greenlight bringing back the Simbul? What about Syluné?
Also, Eilistraee has already made her comeback, together with her brother, even if more info are of course welcome.
quote:
Of course, if Qilue is dead, it means she can be reunited with Elkanter, unless her soul was destroyed.
The same was true for Dove, and yet there she is now. Qilué's soul wasn't destroyed, the sword couldn't do that anymore. Also, everyone forgets about Ysolde :( |
| The Masked Mage |
Posted - 29 Jan 2016 : 17:16:44
I actually an wondering if there will be a rez of Sammaster - with or without the undead dragon madness :) - that would require Mystra to be more like the Neutral Mystra though - or for some other dark power to do it.... perhaps he had a death pact with someone? :P |
| CorellonsDevout |
Posted - 29 Jan 2016 : 17:09:39
It seems like they want all Seven Sisters to remain around...or rather, all Six Sisters. Qilue always seemed to be the "background" sister, because, even though she served both goddesses, I always got the impression she was more of an Eilistraeen than anything. That could be why she has been neglected, other than of course the fact that E herself has been neglected until recent hints suggest she is making a comeback (hopefully).
Of course, if Qilue is dead, it means she can be reunited with Elkanter, unless her soul was destroyed. |
| Irennan |
Posted - 29 Jan 2016 : 16:58:15
quote:
Originally posted by The Masked Mage
quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos
quote:
Originally posted by valarmorgulis
Is there a reason why someone like Khelben can't just be True Rezzed?
You have to want to come back to be resurrected.
-- George Krashos
Mystra 'rezzes' her servants all the time to continue their service. I see no reason for Khelben to be any different from El in this regard, or the Simbul, or the Dark Sister, etc. etc. etc.
Neither the Simbul nor Qilué are back, though. Not yet, at least. Ed has hinted that we haven't seen the last of the Simbul, but poor Qilué seems forgotten (even if she could very well come back, given that both Mystra and Eilistraee are).
On the other hand, Dove has just been resurrected, after the Herald. |
| The Masked Mage |
Posted - 29 Jan 2016 : 16:15:06
quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos
quote:
Originally posted by valarmorgulis
Is there a reason why someone like Khelben can't just be True Rezzed?
You have to want to come back to be resurrected.
-- George Krashos
Mystra 'rezzes' her servants all the time to continue their service. I see no reason for Khelben to be any different from El in this regard, or the Simbul, or the Dark Sister, etc. etc. etc. |
| sfdragon |
Posted - 27 Jan 2016 : 22:14:53
there is death and then there is death, not sure that we have heard the last of khelben |
| CorellonsDevout |
Posted - 26 Jan 2016 : 04:19:49
It would depend on which evil deity you followed (the afterlife of Vhaeraun or Mask wouldn't be so bad, but Bane or Loviator would be, uh, less enjoyable), but I see your point. Khelben may be reluctant to return from Arvandor and once more in Faerun drama. |
| valarmorgulis |
Posted - 26 Jan 2016 : 04:05:10
quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos
quote:
Originally posted by valarmorgulis
Is there a reason why someone like Khelben can't just be True Rezzed?
You have to want to come back to be resurrected.
-- George Krashos
That's actually a good point that applies to all good-aligned characters. Once you are enjoying heaven, why would you ever want to go back, especially when there's a chance that you'll do something that prevents you from going back to heaven. Evil characters, on the other hand, would probably jump at the chance to get out of their eternal torment. |
| CorellonsDevout |
Posted - 26 Jan 2016 : 04:01:09
I would cast my vote for Khelben being rezzed, though from my understanding, he is in Arvandor, even though he was not an elf, so at least his soul is in a good place. But I miss him. |
| George Krashos |
Posted - 21 Jan 2016 : 10:13:30
quote:
Originally posted by valarmorgulis
Is there a reason why someone like Khelben can't just be True Rezzed?
You have to want to come back to be resurrected.
-- George Krashos |
| sfdragon |
Posted - 21 Jan 2016 : 04:39:53
quote:
Originally posted by valarmorgulis
Is there a reason why someone like Khelben can't just be True Rezzed?
that was sealed in a chest, sealed by Elminster's safeguarding NDA clause. This chest is protected 24 hours a day by two unimposing chests of the same look. Yes that's right two mimics. |
| Cyrinishad |
Posted - 21 Jan 2016 : 03:29:59
quote:
Originally posted by dazzlerdal
I came up with another theory for Khelben's death...
...Khelben remains very much alive and active in the realms but is now a free and secret agent.
Wow, that's an excellent mind-bending theory. I dig it... The whole way the Zhentarim had been "re-packaged" in the new edition had been bothering me until I read this. We've known for a long time that Khelben had been willing to work with the Zhentarim, if it was a means to defeat another evil, and serve the greater good. Now I am wondering if perhaps Khelben's "death" could have enabled him to take over the Zhentarim (turning them into a PC faction), and assuming the title/identity of Pereghost. |
| valarmorgulis |
Posted - 21 Jan 2016 : 03:12:16
Is there a reason why someone like Khelben can't just be True Rezzed?
|
| Korginard |
Posted - 20 Jan 2016 : 21:54:58
This theory totally makes sense and matches Khelben's nature. In fact any enemy who knows him at least as well as we do probably suspects it, but as was pointed out the evidence trail is gone.
Personally, I hate the idea that he would leave his wife out of the loop, but again that is something I could expect from Khelben, and she probably would too. Given their long lives, the Sisters have to expect that even the closest relationships won't last forever, and it would be in her own nature to respect that he is simply gone, regardless of what she might suspect. |
| Irennan |
Posted - 20 Jan 2016 : 21:50:30
I know, I was wondering what would become of her in your version, after Khelben ''overrode'' her mind. |
| Gary Dallison |
Posted - 20 Jan 2016 : 21:45:46
I thought she had died during the 4e stuff although I admit to being deliberately ignorant of the events if they even occur. I only go up to 1370 for canon (and even then only loosely) and khelben suits my purposes much more as a free agent |
| Irennan |
Posted - 20 Jan 2016 : 21:32:28
quote:
Originally posted by dazzlerdal
And why could Tsarra's death not be faked.
I didn't mean that. I was concerned about Tsarra's (actual) fate. |
| Gary Dallison |
Posted - 20 Jan 2016 : 21:19:52
And why could Tsarra's death not be faked. Khelben faked his own death in believable terms plenty of times and more than a few were detailed in Blackstaff the death of his guise as the wizard of Stornanter would seem most comparable to the death of Tsarra. Khelben probably knew the coup was taking place and hastily formed a plan for his own demise something he could do again as Tsarra.
Most of the time Khelben simply ended his disguise and passed away peacefully (as regenerating horrific wounds were not a nice task). But it is not unreasonable to believe that a being such as Khelben with his mastery of magic could not seize upon the opportunity to fake his own death if he were attacked by an enemy by surprise.
Admittedly the question of whether he would be a chosen after his body was destroyed does pose an interesting question but even without it I don't doubt Khelben could magically augment his own new body to mimic some of the benefits (such as regeneration).
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