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slow-wizard
Acolyte
10 Posts |
 Posted - 20 Jan 2016 : 13:32:40
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Hi guys. This is my first post. I have been an passive member of the community for sometime and i thought it is time to join in the talk.
First of all sorry about my bad english. I hope i'll explain myself well.
I dont know if you talked about it before but i think Khelben's death was one of the worst things (besides spellplague) happened in the Realms in recent years. I mean when i think about Realms and goodly wizards my number one go to guy is (ofcourse) Elminster and Khelben is a close second. I liked him better because the darker tone he had. It made him more realistic.
I always laughed when Khelbens thinly veiled jealousy about Elmisnters magical powers came up in the books. He was one of the iconic characters in the Realms and why did he had to die again? For a lost city no one really cared for.. And blackstaff became the title for wizards? Come on there is only one blackstaff and it does not share his pow.. ahem title (like gandy the grey said :P)
Well you see i liked him alot. This become more of a rant than an actual question. But i had it in me for a looong time hope you sympathize.
What is your take on his death? And also is there anything in the lore before his death that states his life goal was to restore an ancient elven city Or is it a retcon?
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Edited by - slow-wizard on 20 Jan 2016 13:49:56
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3813 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jan 2016 : 14:01:06
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quote:
Originally posted by slow-wizard
Hi guys. This is my first post. I have been an passive member of the community for sometime and i thought it is time to join in the talk.
First of all sorry about my bad english. I hope i'll explain myself well.
I dont know if you talked about it before but i think Khelben's death was one of the worst things (besides spellplague) happened in the Realms in recent years. I mean when i think about Realms and goodly wizards my number one go to guy is (ofcourse) Elminster and Khelben is a close second. I liked him better because the darker tone he had. It made him more realistic.
I always laughed when Khelbens thinly veiled jealousy about Elmisnters magical powers came up in the books. He was one of the iconic characters in the Realms and why did he had to die again? For a lost city no one really cared for.. And blackstaff became the title for wizards? Come on there is only one blackstaff and it does not share his pow.. ahem title (like gandy the grey said :P)
Well you see i liked him alot. This become more of a rant than an actual question. But i had it in me for a looong time hope you sympathize.
What is your take on his death? And also is there anything in the lore before his death that states his life goal was to restore an ancient elven city Or is it a retcon?
I like Khelben, and I'd really like if he was somehow brought back. The book ''Blackstaff'' was good, but IMO a single city (which has been left compeltely ignored and undeveloped) wasn't worth losing such a cool character, with his own singular pragmatism and (sometimes) ruthlessness.
Given his M.O., he wouldn't even risk to ''steal the spotlight'' (which I bet was the reason why WotC decided to remove him).
As far as I know, he didn't really have a unique ultimate goal, as much as aiming and working to thwart the schemes of the ''evil'' powers of Faerun, in his own way. |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
Edited by - Irennan on 20 Jan 2016 14:03:13 |
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slow-wizard
Acolyte
10 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jan 2016 : 14:24:25
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quote:
Originally posted by Irennan
quote:
Originally posted by slow-wizard
Hi guys. This is my first post. I have been an passive member of the community for sometime and i thought it is time to join in the talk.
First of all sorry about my bad english. I hope i'll explain myself well.
I dont know if you talked about it before but i think Khelben's death was one of the worst things (besides spellplague) happened in the Realms in recent years. I mean when i think about Realms and goodly wizards my number one go to guy is (ofcourse) Elminster and Khelben is a close second. I liked him better because the darker tone he had. It made him more realistic.
I always laughed when Khelbens thinly veiled jealousy about Elmisnters magical powers came up in the books. He was one of the iconic characters in the Realms and why did he had to die again? For a lost city no one really cared for.. And blackstaff became the title for wizards? Come on there is only one blackstaff and it does not share his pow.. ahem title (like gandy the grey said :P)
Well you see i liked him alot. This become more of a rant than an actual question. But i had it in me for a looong time hope you sympathize.
What is your take on his death? And also is there anything in the lore before his death that states his life goal was to restore an ancient elven city Or is it a retcon?
I like Khelben, and I'd really like if he was somehow brought back. The book ''Blackstaff'' was good, but IMO a single city (which has been left compeltely ignored and undeveloped) wasn't worth losing such a cool character, with his own singular pragmatism and (sometimes) ruthlessness.
Given his M.O., he wouldn't even risk to ''steal the spotlight'' (which I bet was the reason why WotC decided to remove him).
As far as I know, he didn't really have a unique ultimate goal, as much as aiming and working to thwart the schemes of the ''evil'' powers of Faerun, in his own way.
My point exactly. One day he wakes up and says "OK it is time to die for an old city that i never mentioned before". Wait!.. What??
If you want to remove a NPC this iconic you need to do it in a Realms Shaking event like Return of Netheril, Spellplague, ToT or Sundering. |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3813 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jan 2016 : 14:30:57
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| Nah, no Sundering, Spellplague or what you have... why would they want to remove iconic NPCs, especially without adding anything meaningful in their place? It's really tiresome how some characters get 30+ books just for them, and others get thrown into the trash bin :( |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
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hashimashadoo
Master of Realmslore
United Kingdom
1155 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jan 2016 : 17:48:38
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| Plans fall through. Rhymanthiin was planned to be a bigger deal than it ever got to be as far as I could tell, but then it got pushed to the side and had a tonne of NDAs affixed to it. Ed knows stuff about Khelben's fate and what goes on in Rhymanthiin, but he's not allowed to tell anyone until WotC drops the NDAs. |
When life turns it's back on you...sneak attack for extra damage.
Head admin of the FR wiki:
https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/ |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6403 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jan 2016 : 19:50:26
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I came up with another theory for Khelben's death. It all depends upon how whiter than white you expect Khelben to be.
In my theory his death was all a ruse but it was the most believable ruse he ever came up with and it had to be because of things that had happened recently.
1 - The great enemy he had long feared was prophesised to end the world and signs were beginning to come together that the event would happen soon.
2 - Khelben was thrust into the spotlight with his exile from the Harpers. I know the Harpers are secret and his Moonstars are secret but with the Harpers working against him he would be followed wherever he went (Khelben is good but he's not omnipotent). If the Harpers are following him then its likely his enemies will not be far away.
3 - Thanks to his long life and high profile actions his true enemies know his identity and discover his plans because of this.
Because of all these things I believed that Khelben wanted to disappear. In order to do so he needed to make everyone believe he had truly died. Remember Khelben had faked his death 20 times or more through the millennia in order to escape notice he was a master at faking his death but some enemies had discovered his previous identities and his fakings and so this time his death had to be 100% believable in other words he had to actually die and even his friends had to believe he died.
So while Rhymanthiin was a worthy cause and something he would probably have sacrificed his own life for I don't believe he actually died because his work was not finished and Khelben is "he whom duty and honour define".
So we know from Blackstaff that Khelben had foreseen Tsarra's appearance. What if he had also foreseen her death. She was supposed to die and nothing he could do would change that. In the novel it says that Khelben modified the Kiira and it tethered the souls and memories of the three beings together (I forget the name of the woman that died).
Through that Kiira Khelben was able to communicate with Tsarra and at the end when his body was destroyed he appeared to reside within it for a time and be able to communicate and possibly control Tsarra. His personality also affected her in some ways and I felt at times she was becoming more like him as part of her preparation to become the Blackstaff.
I am certain I read that following the events of Blackstaff Tsarra was able to access Khelben's memories through the Kiira. So what if that modified Kiira actually overwrote Tsarra's personality over time turning her into Khelben once more.
So during the end of the novel people saw Khelben destroyed and Tsarra was known to a few to take his place so she looked and acted like Khelben and drew upon his memories to make the ruse more believable. The double ruse is that after a time Tsarra was actually Khelben who was masquerading as Tsarra who was masquerading as Khelben.
All Khelben's allies and friends and even his wife believed him gone and destroyed to bring back Rhymanthin. In fact for a time he probably was as dead as you'd expect with no mind and no body as his Kiira slowly overwrote Tsarra's mind. Then he comes back and nobody knows about it not a single being alive.
Its the ultimate faked death because he did in fact die. It allows him the freedom to continue his plans to save the world from the enemy in the prophecy (I believe the prefects were still around until recently) and he could fake his death many more times without anyone knowing. The trail on his life had truly gone cold.
Just a theory of mine but one that I am using to ensure Khelben remains very much alive and active in the realms but is now a free and secret agent. |
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slow-wizard
Acolyte
10 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jan 2016 : 20:59:28
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| What about bringing him back as new Azuth? That would piss Elminster off :) |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3813 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jan 2016 : 21:11:18
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quote:
Originally posted by slow-wizard
What about bringing him back as new Azuth? That would piss Elminster off :)
Heh, old Azuth is already back (or on his way). I like dazzlerdal's take, but that would require that Tsarra's death was also faked.
Also, while I like the concept behind this ploy, it is truly cruel: what would become of Tsarra's mind? Would it fade? |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
Edited by - Irennan on 20 Jan 2016 21:12:52 |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6403 Posts |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3813 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jan 2016 : 21:32:28
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quote:
Originally posted by dazzlerdal
And why could Tsarra's death not be faked.
I didn't mean that. I was concerned about Tsarra's (actual) fate. |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6403 Posts |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3813 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jan 2016 : 21:50:30
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| I know, I was wondering what would become of her in your version, after Khelben ''overrode'' her mind. |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
Edited by - Irennan on 20 Jan 2016 21:50:45 |
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Korginard
Learned Scribe
USA
126 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jan 2016 : 21:54:58
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This theory totally makes sense and matches Khelben's nature. In fact any enemy who knows him at least as well as we do probably suspects it, but as was pointed out the evidence trail is gone.
Personally, I hate the idea that he would leave his wife out of the loop, but again that is something I could expect from Khelben, and she probably would too. Given their long lives, the Sisters have to expect that even the closest relationships won't last forever, and it would be in her own nature to respect that he is simply gone, regardless of what she might suspect. |
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valarmorgulis
Learned Scribe
112 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jan 2016 : 03:12:16
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Is there a reason why someone like Khelben can't just be True Rezzed?
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Cyrinishad
Learned Scribe
300 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jan 2016 : 03:29:59
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quote:
Originally posted by dazzlerdal
I came up with another theory for Khelben's death...
...Khelben remains very much alive and active in the realms but is now a free and secret agent.
Wow, that's an excellent mind-bending theory. I dig it... The whole way the Zhentarim had been "re-packaged" in the new edition had been bothering me until I read this. We've known for a long time that Khelben had been willing to work with the Zhentarim, if it was a means to defeat another evil, and serve the greater good. Now I am wondering if perhaps Khelben's "death" could have enabled him to take over the Zhentarim (turning them into a PC faction), and assuming the title/identity of Pereghost. |
To know, is to know that you know nothing. That is the meaning of true knowledge. -Socrates
Don't cry because it's over. Smile because it happened. -Dr. Seuss |
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sfdragon
Great Reader
2285 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jan 2016 : 04:39:53
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quote:
Originally posted by valarmorgulis
Is there a reason why someone like Khelben can't just be True Rezzed?
that was sealed in a chest, sealed by Elminster's safeguarding NDA clause. This chest is protected 24 hours a day by two unimposing chests of the same look. Yes that's right two mimics. |
why is being a wizard like being a drow? both are likely to find a dagger in the back from a rival or one looking to further his own goals, fame and power
My FR fan fiction
Magister's GAmbit
http://steelfiredragon.deviantart.com/gallery/33539234 |
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore
Australia
6680 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jan 2016 : 10:13:30
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quote:
Originally posted by valarmorgulis
Is there a reason why someone like Khelben can't just be True Rezzed?
You have to want to come back to be resurrected.
-- George Krashos |
"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus |
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 26 Jan 2016 : 04:01:09
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| I would cast my vote for Khelben being rezzed, though from my understanding, he is in Arvandor, even though he was not an elf, so at least his soul is in a good place. But I miss him. |
Sweet water and light laughter |
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valarmorgulis
Learned Scribe
112 Posts |
Posted - 26 Jan 2016 : 04:05:10
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quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos
quote:
Originally posted by valarmorgulis
Is there a reason why someone like Khelben can't just be True Rezzed?
You have to want to come back to be resurrected.
-- George Krashos
That's actually a good point that applies to all good-aligned characters. Once you are enjoying heaven, why would you ever want to go back, especially when there's a chance that you'll do something that prevents you from going back to heaven. Evil characters, on the other hand, would probably jump at the chance to get out of their eternal torment. |
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 26 Jan 2016 : 04:19:49
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| It would depend on which evil deity you followed (the afterlife of Vhaeraun or Mask wouldn't be so bad, but Bane or Loviator would be, uh, less enjoyable), but I see your point. Khelben may be reluctant to return from Arvandor and once more in Faerun drama. |
Sweet water and light laughter |
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sfdragon
Great Reader
2285 Posts |
Posted - 27 Jan 2016 : 22:14:53
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| there is death and then there is death, not sure that we have heard the last of khelben |
why is being a wizard like being a drow? both are likely to find a dagger in the back from a rival or one looking to further his own goals, fame and power
My FR fan fiction
Magister's GAmbit
http://steelfiredragon.deviantart.com/gallery/33539234 |
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The Masked Mage
Great Reader
USA
2420 Posts |
Posted - 29 Jan 2016 : 16:15:06
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quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos
quote:
Originally posted by valarmorgulis
Is there a reason why someone like Khelben can't just be True Rezzed?
You have to want to come back to be resurrected.
-- George Krashos
Mystra 'rezzes' her servants all the time to continue their service. I see no reason for Khelben to be any different from El in this regard, or the Simbul, or the Dark Sister, etc. etc. etc. |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3813 Posts |
Posted - 29 Jan 2016 : 16:58:15
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quote:
Originally posted by The Masked Mage
quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos
quote:
Originally posted by valarmorgulis
Is there a reason why someone like Khelben can't just be True Rezzed?
You have to want to come back to be resurrected.
-- George Krashos
Mystra 'rezzes' her servants all the time to continue their service. I see no reason for Khelben to be any different from El in this regard, or the Simbul, or the Dark Sister, etc. etc. etc.
Neither the Simbul nor Qilué are back, though. Not yet, at least. Ed has hinted that we haven't seen the last of the Simbul, but poor Qilué seems forgotten (even if she could very well come back, given that both Mystra and Eilistraee are).
On the other hand, Dove has just been resurrected, after the Herald. |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
Edited by - Irennan on 29 Jan 2016 16:58:53 |
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 29 Jan 2016 : 17:09:39
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It seems like they want all Seven Sisters to remain around...or rather, all Six Sisters. Qilue always seemed to be the "background" sister, because, even though she served both goddesses, I always got the impression she was more of an Eilistraeen than anything. That could be why she has been neglected, other than of course the fact that E herself has been neglected until recent hints suggest she is making a comeback (hopefully).
Of course, if Qilue is dead, it means she can be reunited with Elkanter, unless her soul was destroyed. |
Sweet water and light laughter |
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The Masked Mage
Great Reader
USA
2420 Posts |
Posted - 29 Jan 2016 : 17:16:44
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| I actually an wondering if there will be a rez of Sammaster - with or without the undead dragon madness :) - that would require Mystra to be more like the Neutral Mystra though - or for some other dark power to do it.... perhaps he had a death pact with someone? :P |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3813 Posts |
Posted - 29 Jan 2016 : 17:18:05
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quote:
Originally posted by CorellonsDevout
It seems like they want all Seven Sisters to remain around...or rather, all Six Sisters. Qilue always seemed to be the "background" sister, because, even though she served both goddesses, I always got the impression she was more of an Eilistraeen than anything. That could be why she has been neglected, other than of course the fact that E herself has been neglected until recent hints suggest she is making a comeback (hopefully).
Yes, she was in the background, but she was really close to Laeral and in good relationship with the Harpers, so she could easily become more involved. I don't know if they want all the sisters around. Will WotC greenlight bringing back the Simbul? What about Syluné?
Also, Eilistraee has already made her comeback, together with her brother, even if more info are of course welcome.
quote:
Of course, if Qilue is dead, it means she can be reunited with Elkanter, unless her soul was destroyed.
The same was true for Dove, and yet there she is now. Qilué's soul wasn't destroyed, the sword couldn't do that anymore. Also, everyone forgets about Ysolde :( |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
Edited by - Irennan on 29 Jan 2016 17:20:59 |
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 29 Jan 2016 : 17:31:24
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| Oh I know she has made a comeback, along with Vhaeraun, and that they are now working together. What I meant by "comeback (hopefully)" was that she makes a comeback in the lore. More info, as you said. Ed said that she and her brother are back, and she got a brief blurb in the SCAG, but my hope is that we see more, be it in sourcebooks or novels. That would signal a true comeback to me. What Ed revealed was great, and she and her brother got at least a little something in the SCAG, but until I see more, I am still skeptical that she and Vhaeraun will get more than just "yeah, they're back". |
Sweet water and light laughter |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3813 Posts |
Posted - 29 Jan 2016 : 17:38:49
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Oh, I see. It seemed weird to me, since you too commented on their return.
I would be happy even with something little, like what they're currently up to, a couple new NPCs making an appearance in some novels (since I think that WotC won't publish any further FR sourcebook), things like that. Either way, this is off-topic.
It would however be awesome, if the whole Waterdeep ''gang'', including Qilué and Khelben, made a comeback. Laeral must be missing them both... |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 29 Jan 2016 : 17:56:38
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Yeah, sorry I wasn't clear ^^; I doubt we would get another book like Demi human Deities, but yeah, new NPC followers of V and E (like more from Phalar, the Chosen of Vhaeraun featured in The Adversary) would be nice.
I felt really bad for Laeral when Khelben died. She has been through a lot. |
Sweet water and light laughter |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3813 Posts |
Posted - 29 Jan 2016 : 18:09:43
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quote:
Originally posted by CorellonsDevout
I felt really bad for Laeral when Khelben died. She has been through a lot.
Yeah. And a few years later, she also lost her closest sister. She has indeed been through a lot. |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36910 Posts |
Posted - 29 Jan 2016 : 19:19:29
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quote:
Originally posted by CorellonsDevout
It seems like they want all Seven Sisters to remain around...or rather, all Six Sisters. Qilue always seemed to be the "background" sister, because, even though she served both goddesses, I always got the impression she was more of an Eilistraeen than anything. That could be why she has been neglected, other than of course the fact that E herself has been neglected until recent hints suggest she is making a comeback (hopefully).
Keep in mind, also, that Qilué wasn't fully Ed's creation. He created the other six, but the seventh was left unnamed and undescribed, save for a reference to a "dark disaster." It was Steven Schend who came along and made her a drow, and then Ed had to figure out how to explain that for the sourcebook about that sisterhood. Before that sourcebook, the focus was on the other six. Qilué wasn't introduced until well into the 2E era. |
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Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 29 Jan 2016 19:22:06 |
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A rant about Khelben
