| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Shadowsoul |
Posted - 08 Sep 2015 : 06:53:34
Should the weave have been kept a vague concept or should it never have seen the light of day?
The reason I ask this is because it's turned into an endless, and annoying, battle where the goddess of magic just seems like a blundering idiot who get's killed on a regular basis and where magic is left entirely too exposed. We also constantly have other gods trying to take it away and mortals having to contain the power in themselves.
I just think the whole concept has gotten out of hand to the point where we are getting a lot of cheese in order to fix this here or back track there etc..... |
| 30 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 12 Sep 2015 : 15:40:34
A relatively good correlation to how "the weave" works for comparison MIGHT be the world wide web. Note here, I didn't say the internet. So, the role of Mystra in the weave could be comparable to the root DNS servers. So, in essence, "schools of magic" might be comparable to certain "supernets of the internet", and you actually have to "route" to that "school of magic / supernet" and then once in that area "route" to the "spell type/ subnet" and finally to the "spell / ip address" of the individual spell that you're going to use. If the weave is the use of "DNS entries" to make "names" out of "ip addresses" in order to make it easier for people to find and utilize a spell, people can still access a given spell if they know how to by just going to the "ip address" for the spell. In comparison, the other gods may be given control over certain "supernets" or "subnets" or specific "ip addresses" (for an example: Velsharoon is given control of the supernet corresponding to the school of necromancy, and Milil is an administrator of the ip addresses dealing with song based magic). Wild magic could be simulated as a load balancer VIP which load balances to a pool of different ip addresses/spells.
What's the point of all this? Well, this means Mystra isn't controlling all magic... though it would appear so to the layman and even those who are "well versed" in magic. She's actually only being a pointer to where to find things easier. Also, in comparison, if she's the "root DNS servers" in comparison, there are also many "local" DNS servers that people go to that then query the root servers (for instance, in comparison, AT&T might have its own local DNS server for its subscribers and so might Verizon). This would be comparable to the difference between wizard, sorcerer, clerical, druidic, psion, etc.... paths of magic, wherein each is using a different local DNS server that only resolves certain DNS entries (i.e. spells) back to the person. In this model, Azuth may be the DNS server that resolves for wizardry, Mystra herself for sorcerers, Auppenser for psions, and the various druid and cleric deities have their own individual DNS servers (and alias'ing another god could just be becoming admin of their dns server). There will also be dns servers corresponding to the various schools of magic.. so that when the root DNS servers (aka Mystra) calls out to the supernet of necromancy (aka Velsharoon) to pull from the subnet of life draining magic for the ip address of the vampiric touch spell..... it resolves that DNS entry to an IP address and the spell works.
So, what are the risks here? Well, when the root servers "aka Mystra" quit working, no one can resolve their names into ip addresses, and as a result they have to call the ip addresses directly. Also, if they had a particular complex algorithm "read program comparable to spell that does a lot" that worked by basically calling on the base formula of several spell "concepts" in order to work, then within that "algorithm" it may have used DNS entries to access all of those concepts rather than the ip addresses to make life easier. In that instance, the end "spell" is trying to work by calling upon other "spells" that it doesn't know how to access without using a DNS entry.
So, what are some concepts in this model that can be applied to make things go wonky? In other words, how do the other gods **** with Mystra without "killing" her? Well, what if they seized control of Azuth's DNS server and went in and changed all the local records to point to another set of DNS servers (aka Shar)<i.e. now without their real knowledge, all wizards are using Shar to find their spells for them>? What if they got into a deity's DNS server and deleted its setup and thereby stripped those followers access to magic unless they directly go to the IP (and Mystra stripping a deity's followers of magic could be simply denying requests from their deity's DNS server..... to which said deity could point to another source for resolving entries... so she's not admin for the other deity's servers)? What if someone accessed Velsharoon's DNS server and started changing or deleting the local entries corresponding to certain spells (suddenly those spells can't be accessed by anyone)? All of these are ways to attack Mystra indirectly |
| Irennan |
Posted - 12 Sep 2015 : 02:57:18
quote:
Originally posted by Eltheron
quote:
Originally posted by Irennan
quote:
Originally posted by Eltheron
I absolutely agree that it's fun to know how nature works, whether it's physics or metaphysics - but once you do know, it destroys that "special something" that made it feel magical. At the point you start defining magic, at least in my opinion anyway, it ceases to be magic and just becomes another kind of technology.
I see what you mean, and I can agree with it.
However, there's something to consider. When the setting has people who can methodically cast magic, then there are two possibilities: either mages learn rituals and words to trigger some effects, while not being aware of how and why the effect is triggered by those actions (and the nature of magic remains a mystery, but new spells are basically only discovered casually, through experimentation), or they know -to some extent- the nature of magic and the ''trigger action'' is the result of a deduction based on their understanding.
So, the possibility of magic remaining mysterious in a setting depends on if it includes only ''ritual/shaman mages'', or if it also has ''scientist-mages''.
EDIT: Reading your edit, it sounds like a cool thing to do, to let the characters slowly uncover how things work, as if they were researchers.
Thanks.  I like to say that there are many things a player's character might know, or be trained in, that just can't be explained satisfactorily in terms of the real world. Magic is one of those. It has certain rules and procedures, it's a power drawn from somewhere that is shaped partly by thought, partly by intention, partly through natural talent and intelligence, but mostly by things that we in the real world just can't understand.
If we lived on Faerun, we might begin to start understanding how it works - but since we don't, we have to filter it through game rules.
With technology, I do love letting my players experiment with smoke powder and gadgetry. If they can come up with something really neat, I let their characters figure it out as they gain levels and experience. For us, and two of my players in particular, they have loads of fun reading spy-gadgetry catalogs and trying to come up with adaptations that a really smart Medieval/Renaissance-world person might invent. We've come up with all sorts of gadgets and fun things they use for those characters - and sometimes even sell to other NPC adventurers (and thieves, etc).
This sounds actually cool, and I've been thinking about implementing somthing similar in my game for a while, in order to give crafting skills more oomph. I've done it with potions, which can be crafted through alchemy (instead of throgh spells, like in 3e), but giving weird gadgets game stats can be rather difficult. |
| Eltheron |
Posted - 11 Sep 2015 : 22:00:52
quote:
Originally posted by Irennan
quote:
Originally posted by Eltheron
I absolutely agree that it's fun to know how nature works, whether it's physics or metaphysics - but once you do know, it destroys that "special something" that made it feel magical. At the point you start defining magic, at least in my opinion anyway, it ceases to be magic and just becomes another kind of technology.
I see what you mean, and I can agree with it.
However, there's something to consider. When the setting has people who can methodically cast magic, then there are two possibilities: either mages learn rituals and words to trigger some effects, while not being aware of how and why the effect is triggered by those actions (and the nature of magic remains a mystery, but new spells are basically only discovered casually, through experimentation), or they know -to some extent- the nature of magic and the ''trigger action'' is the result of a deduction based on their understanding.
So, the possibility of magic remaining mysterious in a setting depends on if it includes only ''ritual/shaman mages'', or if it also has ''scientist-mages''.
EDIT: Reading your edit, it sounds like a cool thing to do, to let the characters slowly uncover how things work, as if they were researchers.
Thanks. I like to say that there are many things a player's character might know, or be trained in, that just can't be explained satisfactorily in terms of the real world. Magic is one of those. It has certain rules and procedures, it's a power drawn from somewhere that is shaped partly by thought, partly by intention, partly through natural talent and intelligence, but mostly by things that we in the real world just can't understand.
If we lived on Faerun, we might begin to start understanding how it works - but since we don't, we have to filter it through game rules.
With technology, I do love letting my players experiment with smoke powder and gadgetry. If they can come up with something really neat, I let their characters figure it out as they gain levels and experience. For us, and two of my players in particular, they have loads of fun reading spy-gadgetry catalogs and trying to come up with adaptations that a really smart Medieval/Renaissance-world person might invent. We've come up with all sorts of gadgets and fun things they use for those characters - and sometimes even sell to other NPC adventurers (and thieves, etc).
|
| Irennan |
Posted - 11 Sep 2015 : 21:49:43
quote:
Originally posted by Eltheron
I absolutely agree that it's fun to know how nature works, whether it's physics or metaphysics - but once you do know, it destroys that "special something" that made it feel magical. At the point you start defining magic, at least in my opinion anyway, it ceases to be magic and just becomes another kind of technology.
I see what you mean, and I can agree with it.
However, there's something to consider. When the setting has people who can methodically cast magic, then there are two possibilities: either mages learn rituals and words to trigger some effects, while not being aware of how and why the effect is triggered by those actions (and the nature of magic remains a mystery, but new spells are basically only discovered casually, through experimentation), or they know -to some extent- the nature of magic and the ''trigger action'' is the result of a deduction based on their understanding.
So, the possibility of magic remaining mysterious in a setting depends on if it includes only ''ritual/shaman mages'', or if it also has ''scientist-mages''.
EDIT: Reading your edit, it sounds like a cool thing to do, to let the characters slowly uncover how things work, as if they were researchers.
|
| Eltheron |
Posted - 11 Sep 2015 : 21:31:48
quote:
Originally posted by Irennan
In game, I totally agree. But, when it comes to magic, it is fun to know how it works, or to see it explained in a Realms book. It is (IMO) more interesting than just having ''magic did it'', as it allows you to know how ''nature'' works in the world. Magic could still be mysterious and its deeper secrets remain unveiled, just like nature in RW: we know much about it, but there are still a lot of questions w/o answer.
Divinity is a different beast, though. I support gods as clearly definite individuals with their own personalities, but the way divinity works should be left alone IMO.
I absolutely agree that it's fun to know how nature works, whether it's physics or metaphysics - but once you do know, it destroys that "special something" that made it feel magical. At the point you start defining magic, at least in my opinion anyway, it ceases to be magic and just becomes another kind of technology.
That's one reason why I do allow technological improvements in my game (right now, my Lantanese gnomes are experimenting with refined smoke powder) - I don't have the same restrictions on guns/technology that is in the canon Realms. I do have some players who love gadgetry and technology, so Gnomish technology (and certain things from long-dead cultures of antiquity) becomes their outlet. And magic can remain, well, magical.
My methods aren't for everyone, though. Each gaming group has to do what they find most fun.
EDIT: one thing I do say, though, is that even though I don't explain magic to players, there are rules and limitations to magic that their Wizard characters do uncover slowly (and perhaps not 100% accurately) through study, effort and experience. Skill check rolls on Knowledge (Arcana) or something related means that their character has figured out something they needed to "make it work" or understand it to a point, but my giving the actual player a handbook or details on how magic works just serves to strip it of that special sense that it's magic.
Again, what I do wouldn't work for everyone and I fully support whatever other gamers decide is best for them in their own games.
|
| Irennan |
Posted - 11 Sep 2015 : 21:22:28
quote:
Originally posted by Eltheron
In my own home game, I pretty much run the "Old Gray Box" of 1E with a few content updates from later editions.
Never had a Time of Troubles, no Kelemvor, Midnight or Cyric, and never plan to have them. I treat Mystra no differently than Boccob is used in Greyhawk. The Weave, and terms like "Art", are local to Western Faerun and mostly a matter of philosophy for sages. All my gods are distant, never ever having avatars show up. I do utilize omens, portents, and the rare dream-vision, which help retain a lot of mystery and allow players and NPCs to engage in personal speculation about the "truth" of the cosmos.
I will never actually explain how magic or divinity "really works" to my players, because there's no reason for them to know. I have no AO, no Abeir, but I do have multiple human pantheons with deities that are all individual entities. I also have racial deities. Players can visit the outer planes, but even in astral form or when taking a living visit to a higher plane they'll never ever meet a god.
IMO, if you don't keep magic and the divine apart from what's knowable, you lose an essential tool for retaining mystery and excitement when unexpected things happen.
Just my $0.02 - YMMV of course.
In game, I totally agree. But, when it comes to magic, it is fun to know how it works, or to see it explained in a Realms book. It is (IMO) more interesting than just having ''magic did it'', as it allows you to know how ''nature'' works in the world. Magic could still be mysterious and its deeper secrets remain unveiled, just like nature in RW: we know much about it, but there are still a lot of questions w/o answer.
Divinity is a different beast, though. I support gods as clearly definite individuals with their own personalities, but the way divinity works should be left alone IMO. |
| Eltheron |
Posted - 11 Sep 2015 : 21:11:04
In my own home game, I pretty much run the "Old Gray Box" of 1E with a few content updates from later editions.
Never had a Time of Troubles, no Kelemvor, Midnight or Cyric, and never plan to have them. I treat Mystra no differently than Boccob is used in Greyhawk. The Weave, and terms like "Art", are local to Western Faerun and mostly a matter of philosophy for sages. All my gods are distant, never ever having avatars show up. I do utilize omens, portents, and the rare dream-vision, which help retain a lot of mystery and allow players and NPCs to engage in personal speculation about the "truth" of the cosmos.
I do have psionics and "place magic" and "table magic" and "shadow magic" and other things, but they are all considered (by Western sages and philosophers) to all be magic and therefore part of the mysterious Weave in some way that isn't fully understood. My Mystra oversees them all. And though in the distant past she used to be called Mystryl, most sages consider that to be merrely a kind of phonetic or language drift - I didn't import Karsus, Mystryl never died, and I have nothing but speculation on why Netheril died so long ago (and Netheril never came back, because there was no "Shade" in my Forgotten Realms).
I will never actually explain how magic or divinity "really works" to my players, because there's no reason for them to know. I have no AO, no Abeir, but I do have multiple human pantheons with deities that are all individual entities. I also have racial deities. Players can visit the outer planes, but even in astral form or when taking a living visit to a higher plane they'll never ever meet a god.
IMO, if you don't keep magic and the divine apart from what's knowable, you lose an essential tool for retaining mystery and excitement when unexpected things happen.
Just my $0.02 - YMMV of course.
|
| Gary Dallison |
Posted - 11 Sep 2015 : 20:21:14
Well many of the more recent events were chosen because of kewl rather than because a particular theme or well thought out process was being used to ensure events meshed well with prior lore.
You can be almost certain that the weave was reboot by the Fall of Netheril. All magic ceased for a time, spellcasters had to relearn how to cast magic, certain spells became unavailable, previously working magics were altered or failed to work anymore. I believe much of this is mentioned in the Netheril sourcebook (although its quality is questionable).
When I do my Netheril rewrite I am making sure to split the Weave and Mystra into separate entities (from a historical point of view at least).
The Weave came into existence when the Nether Scrolls were created (-30000 onwards), although even that was a multi stage process taking many thousands of years. It was created to enable easier, safer (and less powerful) spellcasting, and it acted as a buffer between raw magic and the inhabitants of Toril. As a byproduct the Weave also allowed the lesser races to flourish (they would probably have burned up when exposed to the raw magic saturated environment of Toril).
Fast forward a few tens of millennia and the Weave gains sentience of a sort when a certain arcanist becomes a Weave Ghost (the first non full blooded elf to do so). Her appearances and whisperings within the weave to a favoured few in Netheril gave rise to the legends of the Lady in Grey (Volo's Guide to All Things Magical), and were also the beginnings of a belief in a goddess of magic and the weave.
Thus Mystryl was created and at that point the Weave and Mystryl became one. Before that, the other gods of magic (Corellon, etc) were just gods of magic and had nothing to do with the weave.
At least that's how I'm spinning things in my alternate version. I however do not subscribe to the theory that a god is his portfolio and has total control of everything to do with it. Thus Tempus cannot determine the outcome of every battle and war just by wishing it (he can send divine servants to effect an outcome, he can send magic through his mortal servants, he can send manifestations, and even avatars), but he cannot just alter the world how he sees fit just because a war is going on. Mortals have free will, that's why they and their worship are so important.
So Mystra is the Weave and she has a measure of control over it, but only in the same way as we have control over our own bodies (you can control the big things like movement, but not necessarily the actions on a cellular or even tissue level).
Can other gods hijack bits of the weave, of course they can, just like a parasite can hijack its host (admittedly simple parasites hijacking simple hosts, but when you have a god parasite they can hijack god hosts). When Mystryl was destroyed by Karsus the Weave was probably restored because people still believed in a goddess of magic who was also part of the weave.
Spellplague and after, who knows what happens, if its kewl it rewls |
| Irennan |
Posted - 11 Sep 2015 : 18:07:16
quote:
Originally posted by Lilianviaten
To me, there should be less wizards in 5e and less worship of Mystra. Spellcasters have had over 100 years to venture off to alternate forms of magic. I would expect more mortals to be making warlock pacts with demons, devils, archfey, or far realm entities. I would also expect to see less priests around.
Between this and the Time of Troubles, gods have been proven to be unreliable. Even the most powerful of them can be killed off, drastically reduced in power, or imprisoned (Cyric) in the wink of a an eye.
I would expect your average humans (and other races) who are not fond of trafficking with dark powers, to have placed a lot more faith in the martial arts. I would expect to see more places developing like Chessenta, where there is a strong wariness (and even aversion) to spellcasters.
Dark or ''alternative'' powers and pacts are just as unreliable as gods and magic, though (and can come with huge drawbacks. Like selling one's own soul...). As for priests, we have to consider that there are priests who aren't just after power and advantages, some of them may strongly believe and have faith in their deities' ideals and goals, and actually feel the desire to aid such cause.
Martial arts can only be applied to combat, magic has a lot of uses that can improve the quality of life (not to mention healing spells). Try to think to what people may need for their everyday life, instead of combat. While defense is important, I'm sure that most individuals will go after comfort and stuff that makes their life better, before considering combat.
You may say that (non magical) technology could have become more prominent, but the thing is, technology doesn't come out of nowhere. You need mathematics and science for that, which -AFAIK- aren't really big in the FR. It may take centuries to develop such crafts, and there's no guarantee that they will be able to achieve the same effects that magic can produce (and surely, from the perspective of some random in-world person, it would almost seem impossible, just like modern tech might seem absurd to people of the past). And even after finding how certain phenomena work, it takes a brilliant mind, and inspiration, to find a practical application for that. Technological advancement isn't just that easy.
Also, people will not just go ''oh, magic is unreliable, lets ditch it and look for something else'', because they appreciate what it offers, in some cases even rely on it, and won't generally be able to see a concrete alternative to it (especially not when tech seems to lag so far behind what magic can do). They will try to adapt and make magic work. |
| Irennan |
Posted - 11 Sep 2015 : 16:35:55
quote:
Originally posted by Lilianviaten
My take: they need to stop killing Mystra off for shock value, then giving half baked excuses as to why the most powerful goddess can't manage to stay alive.
If the Weave needs to be rebooted after excessive, reckless use of magic, why didn't a Spellplague occur after the Crown Wars? The BS the elves pulled with the Drow curse and the Killing Storm was extremely reckless, to say nothing else of what happened in that time. The explanation causes one to wonder why there haven't been more recorded Spellplagues.
QFT. That needs to be done with every god. Stop removing them for shock value. However, since WotC was dead set on ''no reboot'', then Ed tried to provide an explanation and weave (heh) more lore together. One explanation to why the reboot (of the Weave) hasn't happened before (and you're forgetting the heaviest spell that the elves cast: the Sundering, that alone might be worth a remake of the Weave) may be that those brought the Weave near the ''reboot needed'' state, and that the ToT and what came after made the reboot utterly needed. Perhaps the Weave was also rebooted with Karsus' folly, Idk. |
| Irennan |
Posted - 11 Sep 2015 : 16:31:28
quote:
Originally posted by Cyrinishad
Thanks for clarifying the practical details Irennan... So, if we hit the rewind button and go back to prior to the formation of the Weave, do you think it is conceivable that Toril would essentially function like Limbo?
I don't know if it is canon, but if I had to guess, I'd say no. Here are my wild guesses.
Toril is made up of physical matter. Limbo, as an outer plane, not so much: it basically embodies the concept of chaos (not in the sense that -say- Lolth means it, though, because from her behaviour I'd say that she is a goddess of strife, not chaos), as it has the potential to become anything. As far as I know, an intelligent creature can literally shape the place with their mind, they can manipulate the reality (basically what magic allows to do), but with an effort of willpower.
Other outer planes are more rigid. They too are ideas made substance, but they are already defined. As I said, my guess is that casters can draw from the energy provided by ideas and beliefs that make up the planes, but without as much freedom. That's because the nature of those places (and their energy) may not lend itself to the use of certain spells (whose nature is contrast with that of a given plane. The existence of planar traits like ''suppressed X magic'' can also be interpreted as pointing to that).
The material plane is different. Its elements have a defined structure, it is hard to break them and manipulate them into something else. Their energy is trapped in the matter (for example the chemical bonds that keep stuff together), not easy to access, just like in RW (and just like in RW, energy is required to manipulate it).
I say this because, IIRC, according to Ed, the Weave itself acts like a sort of reflection of the energy of Toril, so it includes even the energy that all matter possesses by virtue of its existence. If I had to put this together with what it is said in Magic of Faerun, I'd say that this ''reflection'' exists unrelatedly to the Weave, but that is unstable and dangerous, and needs to be refined, becoming the Weave, in order to be used.
The Weave makes it so that casters can access the energy trapped in the matter of the plane, or liberated through volatile phenomena (explosions, fires, storms and so on), through magic, and use such energy to shape the plane itself according to their wishes.
In short, my guess is that on the outer planes the energy is already ''free'' (to various degrees) and easier to be accessed, so magic can be casted by directly drawing from that. On the Prime energy is not free, and it requires an ''interface'' to be used, provided by the Weave (which in turn ''reflects'' the energy of Toril, and, for that reason, can be seen as shaped by the physical nature of Toril).
As for the remaining planes (Inner planes+Astral):
-The Elemental planes may work in a similar way to the outer planes, as they are already permeated with the magical energies of their element (therefore some spells would be favored over others). This may be a stretch for the plane of Water/Earth, as Idk what ''Earth-Water energy'' may concretely be (for example, is it the energy tied to their movement, or is it the energy that holds the matter together? And if it were, why should it be different than earth or water on Toril?).
-The position of the Astral plane may allow casters to draw energy from the outer planes (and perhaps that could be true for the Ethereal plane as well, from where casters may still draw energy from the Weave/Prime).
-Planes that are reflections of others, like the Shadow plane (or, with the recent additions, the Feywild) may include a reflection of the Weave as well (warped in the same way the reflection of Toril itself is, and therefore favoring some spells over others). |
| Lilianviaten |
Posted - 11 Sep 2015 : 16:20:29
quote:
Originally posted by Cyrinishad
quote:
Originally posted by Nicolai Withander
My biggest problem with the concept, which I actually like, is the problem about interplannar magic. If a wizard cant cast spells in a deadmagic zone i.e. a place where the weave is not pressent, then how can he cast magic places where the weave is not present? As in other planes or crystal pheres...
This is a great point Nicolai, and you're right magic works on other planes & crystal spheres. Which suggests that if Mystryl hadn't constructed the Weave in the first place, magic may still have worked on Toril without it... But, without the Weave, Mystryl wouldn't be able to dictate the who is allowed to use Magic... Which of course leads to the perpetual divine power struggle over who gets to make the Magic Decisions.
To me, there should be less wizards in 5e and less worship of Mystra. Spellcasters have had over 100 years to venture off to alternate forms of magic. I would expect more mortals to be making warlock pacts with demons, devils, archfey, or far realm entities. I would also expect to see less priests around.
Between this and the Time of Troubles, gods have been proven to be unreliable. Even the most powerful of them can be killed off, drastically reduced in power, or imprisoned (Cyric) in the wink of a an eye.
I would expect your average humans (and other races) who are not fond of trafficking with dark powers, to have placed a lot more faith in the martial arts. I would expect to see more places developing like Chessenta, where there is a strong wariness (and even aversion) to spellcasters. |
| Lilianviaten |
Posted - 11 Sep 2015 : 16:13:23
quote:
Originally posted by Irennan
quote:
Originally posted by Cyrinishad
quote:
Originally posted by Nicolai Withander
My biggest problem with the concept, which I actually like, is the problem about interplannar magic. If a wizard cant cast spells in a deadmagic zone i.e. a place where the weave is not pressent, then how can he cast magic places where the weave is not present? As in other planes or crystal pheres...
This is a great point Nicolai, and you're right magic works on other planes & crystal spheres. Which suggests that if Mystryl hadn't constructed the Weave in the first place, magic may still have worked on Toril without it... But, without the Weave, Mystryl wouldn't be able to dictate the who is allowed to use Magic... Which of course leads to the perpetual divine power struggle over who gets to make the Magic Decisions.
IIRC, in Magic of Faerun it is said that the Weave is a construct that prevents the raw magical energies from ''overloading'' the world and quickly dissipate in an explosive burst. It is what allows magic to be used on Toril. Even Post-Spellplague, the Weave still existed: it was severely damaged, but still there (Ed confirmed this in Elminster Enraged and Spellstorm. In fact, IIRC, the whole Spellplague was a necessary part of the cycle of the Weave. Mystra had to reboot it, after it was worn by all the reckless use of magic of the past, and she had to ''reboot'' herself with it), and it was what prevented magic from being utterly uncontrollable during that period of time.
My guess is that on the Outer Planes, magic is fueled by the very substance of the planes. The nature of those places is completely different from the Prime, they basically are faith and ideas made substance, and ideas, beliefs and so on hold power there. Limbo is the epithome of that, anyone with a strong enough willpower is a mage there.
My take: they need to stop killing Mystra off for shock value, then giving half baked excuses as to why the most powerful goddess can't manage to stay alive.
If the Weave needs to be rebooted after excessive, reckless use of magic, why didn't a Spellplague occur after the Crown Wars? The BS the elves pulled with the Drow curse and the Killing Storm was extremely reckless, to say nothing else of what happened in that time. The explanation causes one to wonder why there haven't been more recorded Spellplagues. |
| Cyrinishad |
Posted - 11 Sep 2015 : 16:00:26
Thanks for clarifying the practical details Irennan... So, if we hit the rewind button and go back to prior to the formation of the Weave, do you think it is conceivable that Toril would essentially function like Limbo? |
| Irennan |
Posted - 11 Sep 2015 : 15:15:08
quote:
Originally posted by Cyrinishad
quote:
Originally posted by Nicolai Withander
My biggest problem with the concept, which I actually like, is the problem about interplannar magic. If a wizard cant cast spells in a deadmagic zone i.e. a place where the weave is not pressent, then how can he cast magic places where the weave is not present? As in other planes or crystal pheres...
This is a great point Nicolai, and you're right magic works on other planes & crystal spheres. Which suggests that if Mystryl hadn't constructed the Weave in the first place, magic may still have worked on Toril without it... But, without the Weave, Mystryl wouldn't be able to dictate the who is allowed to use Magic... Which of course leads to the perpetual divine power struggle over who gets to make the Magic Decisions.
IIRC, in Magic of Faerun it is said that the Weave is a construct that prevents the raw magical energies from ''overloading'' the world and quickly dissipate in an explosive burst. It is what allows magic to be used on Toril. Even Post-Spellplague, the Weave still existed: it was severely damaged, but still there (Ed confirmed this in Elminster Enraged and Spellstorm. In fact, IIRC, the whole Spellplague was a necessary part of the cycle of the Weave. Mystra had to reboot it, after it was worn by all the reckless use of magic of the past, and she had to ''reboot'' herself with it), and it was what prevented magic from being utterly uncontrollable during that period of time.
My guess is that on the Outer Planes, magic is fueled by the very substance of the planes. The nature of those places is completely different from the Prime, they basically are faith and ideas made substance, and ideas, beliefs and so on hold power there. Limbo is the epithome of that, anyone with a strong enough willpower is a mage there. |
| Cyrinishad |
Posted - 11 Sep 2015 : 15:03:39
Well, yeah... I guess what I'm saying is that Mystryl had an idea brought on by pride and hubris, and that's consistent with the way gods act in real-world myths as well. Hence, gods making decisions that are short-sighted, illogical, arbitrary, inconsistent, flawed, contradictory, etc. is pretty much what I expect out of them. |
| Shadowsoul |
Posted - 11 Sep 2015 : 06:49:08
quote:
Originally posted by Cyrinishad
quote:
Originally posted by Nicolai Withander
My biggest problem with the concept, which I actually like, is the problem about interplannar magic. If a wizard cant cast spells in a deadmagic zone i.e. a place where the weave is not pressent, then how can he cast magic places where the weave is not present? As in other planes or crystal pheres...
This is a great point Nicolai, and you're right magic works on other planes & crystal spheres. Which suggests that if Mystryl hadn't constructed the Weave in the first place, magic may still have worked on Toril without it... But, without the Weave, Mystryl wouldn't be able to dictate the who is allowed to use Magic... Which of course leads to the perpetual divine power struggle over who gets to make the Magic Decisions.
That is the problem right there. Why does she need to control who can use it or not? Because she made the weave this almost physical thing, she made it easier for someone to attempt control over it.
Basically she causes the problems. It's kind of like leaving your front door unlocked and wondering why you are being robbed all the time. |
| Cyrinishad |
Posted - 11 Sep 2015 : 03:11:13
quote:
Originally posted by Nicolai Withander
My biggest problem with the concept, which I actually like, is the problem about interplannar magic. If a wizard cant cast spells in a deadmagic zone i.e. a place where the weave is not pressent, then how can he cast magic places where the weave is not present? As in other planes or crystal pheres...
This is a great point Nicolai, and you're right magic works on other planes & crystal spheres. Which suggests that if Mystryl hadn't constructed the Weave in the first place, magic may still have worked on Toril without it... But, without the Weave, Mystryl wouldn't be able to dictate the who is allowed to use Magic... Which of course leads to the perpetual divine power struggle over who gets to make the Magic Decisions. |
| Nicolai Withander |
Posted - 10 Sep 2015 : 22:26:05
My biggest problem with the concept, which I actually like, is the problem about interplannar magic. If a wizard cant cast spells in a deadmagic zone i.e. a place where the weave is not pressent, then how can he cast magic places where the weave is not present? As in other planes or crystal pheres...
In that sense, I do feel that the weave as a concept could have been held more vague, and not have been done as an almost physical web that encompassed the crystal sphere of Realm Space...
|
| Cyrinishad |
Posted - 10 Sep 2015 : 13:14:04
I haven't perceived 5th edition as change for the sake of change, but I suppose on some level I'm holding out my judgement on what constitutes the 5th Edition Realms until I take a look at the quality of the Sword Coast sourcebook in November... Perhaps my perspective will shift at that point, but I will remain optimistic as long as the Realms remains the canvas upon which the D&D game is presented.
...I'm on the same page as Dazzlerdal about the Shades constantly causing me to have this reaction:  |
| Gary Dallison |
Posted - 10 Sep 2015 : 09:40:02
For the setting, shade appearing as an uber aggressive villain made no sense to me.
The city had just returned after more than a millennia on another plane. It had no allies, no resources, only a few thousand residents, and suddenly attacked everyone and everything.
If I were to do a rewrite (or finish one) I would have shade return in secret and begin terraforming the hidden vale into the shadow sea. The environmental and political upset in anauroch and neighbouring regions could be subtle and used as another source of mystery and reason for adventurers to go there and find out what's going on.
The Sharn wall comes down anyway and the phaerimm should head away in all directions in search of powerful sources of magic to sustain themselves (which allows for another unseen enemy to spread across the realms and pull strings for extra added intrigue) we can even have the shades infiltrate far off places and organisations trying to track down and destroy phaerimm (they are still mortal enemies after all).
But absolutely no huge war with phaerimm (a battle in the stone lands perhaps), no shades running amok, no attacking heavily defended elven fortresses, and no shadow swords. |
| Shadowsoul |
Posted - 10 Sep 2015 : 06:39:13
quote:
Originally posted by Cyrinishad
quote:
Originally posted by Shadowsoul
I get the feeling that WoTc is in destruction mode as long as it makes them money. I could see them destroy Cormyr if it made them money. It's like someone with an old comicbook collection who has it taken by someone who cares nothing for comics and would just as quickly use it for jax roll than take care of it.
Shade has been a concept around for a while now and Telemont is an enemy from a long gone age of mighty magic who was put down like a bad habit in the blink of an eye.
I'm getting to the point where I really want to walk away from 5th edition Realms because it is not turning out to be what we were led to believe.
I truly don't comprehend the doomsaying, because the comic book collection analogy already happened back in 4th Edition. 5th Edition is us rebuilding the collection... And people are coming back to the game now, so I'm optimistic.
Admittedly, I suppose that part of my contentment with 5th edition Realms is rooted in the fact that it has brought people back to D&D. And that I don't make a connection in my own mind between the Realms Novels and any particular edition of the Realms in the D&D game. So, I think the 5th Edition Realms as part of the D&D game, has delivered... And the authors of the novels will continue to write whatever they want to write.
Basically ever edition has "brought" people back to D&D, this edition doesn't hold anything special for that. Also, the problem is that the Realms is not becoming what they made it seem. You can't bring about all this return to the old Realms but then turn around and cause damage in other areas. I really don't see much of an improvement from 4th edition to be honest. We are still getting the whole change for the sake of change thing and it's not good. |
| Cyrinishad |
Posted - 10 Sep 2015 : 05:15:57
quote:
Originally posted by Shadowsoul
I get the feeling that WoTc is in destruction mode as long as it makes them money. I could see them destroy Cormyr if it made them money. It's like someone with an old comicbook collection who has it taken by someone who cares nothing for comics and would just as quickly use it for jax roll than take care of it.
Shade has been a concept around for a while now and Telemont is an enemy from a long gone age of mighty magic who was put down like a bad habit in the blink of an eye.
I'm getting to the point where I really want to walk away from 5th edition Realms because it is not turning out to be what we were led to believe.
I truly don't comprehend the doomsaying, because the comic book collection analogy already happened back in 4th Edition. 5th Edition is us rebuilding the collection... And people are coming back to the game now, so I'm optimistic.
Admittedly, I suppose that part of my contentment with 5th edition Realms is rooted in the fact that it has brought people back to D&D. And that I don't make a connection in my own mind between the Realms Novels and any particular edition of the Realms in the D&D game. So, I think the 5th Edition Realms as part of the D&D game, has delivered... And the authors of the novels will continue to write whatever they want to write. |
| Caolin |
Posted - 10 Sep 2015 : 03:52:34
quote:
Originally posted by Shadowsoul
Should the weave have been kept a vague concept or should it never have seen the light of day?
The reason I ask this is because it's turned into an endless, and annoying, battle where the goddess of magic just seems like a blundering idiot who get's killed on a regular basis and where magic is left entirely too exposed. We also constantly have other gods trying to take it away and mortals having to contain the power in themselves.
I just think the whole concept has gotten out of hand to the point where we are getting a lot of cheese in order to fix this here or back track there etc.....
YES!!! So so much of the Realms deity stuff should have been kept vague. But that's gone now so I welcome our new....well not so new overlords. |
| sfdragon |
Posted - 10 Sep 2015 : 03:04:06
as for Lord Shadow.
true you dont get to that age by making stupid mistakes.
Age comes with experience which can and in some does lead to over-confidence, arrogance, and other full of one's self issues; which leaves one dying in a stupid way.
Cliche isnt it? They should have done more with that scene |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 09 Sep 2015 : 20:47:26
quote:
Originally posted by TBeholder
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Okay, we really can do without comments like that. Disagree with corporate decisions all you want, but don't launch attacks like that at the people making them. 
In your zeal to protect poor little hippos in the china shop from mildly (compared to this, for example) harsh stares, you seem to be missing the point.
And the point is that one matter has nothing to do with the other - they don't have a casual relationship.
If it was kept vague, there's no reason why exactly the same could not happen.
In addition, things "kept vague" tend to generate conflicts in sources, and the more vague, the more likely so.
Both between "canon" from different authors, and between a local interpretation and later canon.
Much like it was with infravision/darkvision.
No, the point is it is a violation of the rules to make personal attacks, and saying someone has the brains of a dead goldfish falls into that category.
I have no disagreement with you in regards to the relevant Realmslore -- the point I was addressing was how you described the non-creative personnel at WotC. |
| TBeholder |
Posted - 09 Sep 2015 : 18:42:41
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Okay, we really can do without comments like that. Disagree with corporate decisions all you want, but don't launch attacks like that at the people making them.
In your zeal to protect poor little hippos in the china shop from mildly (compared to this, for example) harsh stares, you seem to be missing the point.
And the point is that one matter has nothing to do with the other - they don't have a casual relationship.
If it was kept vague, there's no reason why exactly the same could not happen.
In addition, things "kept vague" tend to generate conflicts in sources, and the more vague, the more likely so.
Both between "canon" from different authors, and between a local interpretation and later canon.
Much like it was with infravision/darkvision. |
| Shadowsoul |
Posted - 09 Sep 2015 : 00:20:33
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Lilianviaten
quote:
Originally posted by dazzlerdal
I think the idiocy and polluted concept are more to do with the ip owners than the idea. Much of the realms contains brilliant ideas that are slowly (and not so slowly) being dumbed down and eroded into a blancmange like soup of generic flavour.
Nothing is safe from the kult of kewl.
If you don't like the garbage then don't buy it.
What ideas do you like that have been dumbed down or mishandled by the Kult of Kewl? It's probably a valid criticism, but it's also a vague one.
For me, the answer to your question is Mystra, her Chosen, the Weave, even Shade (as much as I've complained about it) -- all of these are good ideas that have been mishandled, sometimes badly so.
Constantly putting Mystra and her Chosen in direct opposition to evil powers has created the "Justice League" illusion that many have fallen victim to, and adding the Weave in as a tool directly accessed by them has encouraged others to want to play with the same toys (much like the Chosen concept).
And Shade would have been so much better used as a -- pardon the pun -- shady background villain. Instead of them constantly showing up everywhere, as part of just about every evil plot that you could think of, they should have been behind the scenes manipulators, working thru layers of intermediaries and rarely appearing in the limelight.
Actually, that applies to a lot of powerful groups and individuals of the Realms. You don't get powerful by charging headlong into every single fight you can find -- but WotC, and TSR before them, prefer that approach. Screw nuance and devious plots, give us MOAR BOOM!
That's the dumbing down we've seen for too long. WotC has gone Hollywood on the Realms.
Not to mention that Telemont is how old again?
People that age don't live that long by making stupid mistakes. |
| Shadowsoul |
Posted - 09 Sep 2015 : 00:19:31
I get the feeling that WoTc is in destruction mode as long as it makes them money. I could see them destroy Cormyr if it made them money. It's like someone with an old comicbook collection who has it taken by someone who cares nothing for comics and would just as quickly use it for jax roll than take care of it.
Shade has been a concept around for a while now and Telemont is an enemy from a long gone age of mighty magic who was put down like a bad habit in the blink of an eye.
I'm getting to the point where I really want to walk away from 5th edition Realms because it is not turning out to be what we were led to believe. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 08 Sep 2015 : 23:35:31
quote:
Originally posted by Lilianviaten
There was a comment in the Herald that really furthered the Justice League notion. I think it was when Shar was talking to Telamont, and Shar mentioned that with the notable exception of Szass Tam rising to power over Thay, Elminster had been there to thwart every major plot to Faerun in the last 400 years.
That line was obviously not true, though -- Shar was lying, for her own purposes. There is no way Elminster could be everywhere, and plenty of examples of plots he wasn't involved in at all -- like the return of Shade, the attack of Iakhovas, the Twisted Rune's kidnapping of Halaster Blackcloak, the whole mess with the Rage of Dragons... And the list goes on. |
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