| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Rikudou |
Posted - 05 Jan 2015 : 10:01:05
Greetings, I'm just wondering if the Demon Lords and Archdevils (except 4e Asmodeus) are equal in power to demigods/exarchs and perhaps lesser deities? I remember back in 1e that Mephistopheles is treated as a lesser deity in his layer of hell, does this still hold true in 4e? |
| 30 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| hashimashadoo |
Posted - 16 Jan 2015 : 07:38:56
quote:
Originally posted by Lilianviaten
quote:
Originally posted by hashimashadoo
She was supposed to be, but 5th edition put her back in so their Tyranny of Dragons campaign would work in their new core setting.
The folks over at Kobold Publishing were told by WotC that she was still in the Hells, so they didn't argue.
Did the Tyranny of Dragons adventure ever provide a reason as to how Tiamat ended up trapped in the Nine Hells? Only Asmodeus would have the power to snatch her from Bane's clutches, but even for him, that would be a bold move.
Stumbled across a post by Erin Evans on this subject in regard to her cameo in Fire in the Blood.
quote:
Originally posted by ErinMEvans
Tiamat came up in story summit discussions, which was where Ed Greenwood mentioned that they'd kicked around the idea back in the day that whatever Tiamat consumed was completely destroyed. Which just kind of lit up my whole brain--what a fantastic reason to share territory with this dragon goddess!
I'll admit, at the time, I think we were all under the impression that she was placed in Avernus by 4E. I know I was. She's in Avernus in pretty much every other campaign setting, after all, and a lot of the 4E changes did have a streamlining effect. But she was in Banehold for some reason. So this is sort of a smoothing scene to account for that transition. Because Tiamat doesn't deserve to skulk around in Banehold like some kind of beaten pet! She's a Queen! She deserves her own little realm in the Nine Hells!
Still doesn't explain why the Cult of the Dragon suddenly need to free her from Avernus. |
| Mirtek |
Posted - 15 Jan 2015 : 19:52:44
Well, in Fire in the Blood they actually state that she just recently moved back, prefering Asmodeus' protection to Bane's.
Although once Asmodeus gets demoted to lesser deity (as hinted in the MM) it might be interesting if he suddenly needs protection from her |
| hashimashadoo |
Posted - 15 Jan 2015 : 17:29:20
No, they didn't literally put her back, they wrote it as if she never left. |
| Lilianviaten |
Posted - 15 Jan 2015 : 05:06:50
quote:
Originally posted by hashimashadoo
She was supposed to be, but 5th edition put her back in so their Tyranny of Dragons campaign would work in their new core setting.
The folks over at Kobold Publishing were told by WotC that she was still in the Hells, so they didn't argue.
Did the Tyranny of Dragons adventure ever provide a reason as to how Tiamat ended up trapped in the Nine Hells? Only Asmodeus would have the power to snatch her from Bane's clutches, but even for him, that would be a bold move. |
| Mirtek |
Posted - 13 Jan 2015 : 19:53:29
She's even mentioned as a lesser deity residing in Avernus in the dragon entry only a few pages after that sentence about Asmodeus being the only lesser deity in the hells.
I am too lazy to check right now, does anyone know (or care to check) if the sahuagin entry also mentions Sekolah as a lesser deity from the nine hells? |
| hashimashadoo |
Posted - 13 Jan 2015 : 06:57:36
She was supposed to be, but 5th edition put her back in so their Tyranny of Dragons campaign would work in their new core setting.
The folks over at Kobold Publishing were told by WotC that she was still in the Hells, so they didn't argue. |
| Rikudou |
Posted - 12 Jan 2015 : 08:41:01
quote:
Not in 1e, definately not in 2e and not in 3.x and 4e either. From the little blurbs we have in the 5e MM it seems that it's not the case in 5e either (e.g. the short description of the nine hells pointing out how Asmodeus is the only creature there with the powers of a lesser deity. And yes that means whoever wrote that forgot about Tiamat).
Isn't she out of the Hells now and under Bane's service? |
| Shemmy |
Posted - 10 Jan 2015 : 22:31:46
quote:
Originally posted by Shadowsoul
Were any Archfiends ever mortal?
Arch-yugoloths = no. They don't evolve from mortal souls. I'm only including actual yugoloths here as yugoloth lords.
Archdevils = unknown since we don't know the full history of many of them. Baalzebul seems to fit the bill since he's a fallen archon IIRC and archons derive from mortal souls. The Hag Countess (now dead) would also qualify here, but only if we assume that night hags do in fact derive from evolved hordelings (which are evolved larvae from mortal souls).
Abyssal Lords = Orcus yes as an example. Only tanar'ri qualify here since obyriths don't derive from mortal souls. But tanar'ri can also breed conventionally and do quite a lot, so it's hard to say for a given example unless we know from their history that they were once mortal. |
| Marc |
Posted - 10 Jan 2015 : 22:15:06
Kostchtchie, tough there's different versions of him
Orcus remembers his mortal life, and death and larva transformation |
| Markustay |
Posted - 10 Jan 2015 : 18:39:41
I suppose Lolth (Araushnee) might meet that criteria, but she wasn't a 'demon queen' for very long.
Plus, being one of the Seldarine, she was probably already a minor goddess to begin with. |
| Shadowsoul |
Posted - 10 Jan 2015 : 16:57:17
Were any Archfiends ever mortal? |
| Markustay |
Posted - 10 Jan 2015 : 15:40:44
To take this conjecture a bit further, when some of the contradictory (with past lore) 4th edition material came out we learned that the elemental lords were really primordials, who aren't deities, and CAN'T grant spells. That goes against what came before.
I theorized that some primordials may have made deals with the 'upstart gods' (deities), and they shared any worship (power) sent their way. This makes some sense, actually, because in the Horde material - especially the novel Horselords - the Tuigan presumably worship a male aspect of Akadi, but it is very obviously Talos they are talking about. (she's even referred to as Teylas!) To me, this indicates one of those 'partnerships'.
So, if primordials can do it (which would explain-away quite a bit of the 4e inconsistency), then why not archfiends? In fact, we even have another VERY good precedent - Saints! These demi-powers supposedly have their own 'orders', but its really the 'boss god' that is delivering the mojo. Ilmater's religion is full of them! Chosen have a similar role - when you call upon them its really Mystra providing the power. Although, AFAIK, their are no formalized orders dedicated to Chosen (who are really just 'living Saints'), I know at least Elminster is listed amongst the demigods in Kara-Tur.
So if 'goodly' powers can use demi-powers in this role, then why can't evil powers do the same with archfiends? As Austin pointed out above, we already see Yeenoghu and Erythnul doing just that.
In reality, the 'powers' of the multiverse act like a giant pyramid scheme, and these underling-gods are really just the 'downlines' for the higher-ups. One could even theorize that 'the gods' are doing much the same thing - providing important roles needed to be filled by Overgods (so most powers don't like to 'micro-manage', and assign local supervisors, but some still prefer to act directly). |
| Arcanus |
Posted - 10 Jan 2015 : 14:50:57
I don't like the idea that devils and demons gain power through worship. For me it's something that should be for the gods only. The gods need worship, if they don't get it then they fade and perish. Devils and demons do not walk this tightrope, they stand to gain without risk. This doesn't sit well with me. |
| Austin the Archmage |
Posted - 08 Jan 2015 : 00:54:28
I just remembered, in the third edition Deities and Demigods book, there's a mention that clerics who worship Yeenoghu are actually granted their spells by Erythnul, and Yeenoghu actually works for him. That's the instance of a certain arrangment between a deity and an archfiend that I can think of. |
| Ayrik |
Posted - 08 Jan 2015 : 00:39:55
I see the distinction between archfiends vs gods as being arbitrary, and - as most things in D&D are - convenient contrivances which maintain symmetry.
Basically the gods have always been presented in sourcebooks about gods. They are assumed to be entities worthy of faith, PCs are expected to revere or worship (or at least have a healthy respect for) divine beings.
Archfiends, on the other hand, are traditionally presented in sourcebooks about monsters. They exist to make things challenging and unpleasant, PCs are expected to combat such powerful foes and their minions. Fellows like Asmodeus have always had stats not unlike gods proper, but we are expected to smite him and never even consider sustaining such dark things, never offer them our faith or our souls. (And yeah, fiends consume souls, reshaping them with fiendish intent. A horrifying fate no sane person would desire. And yet this isnt really very different from what most gods do with souls, just with different alignment, purpose, and form.) |
| Austin the Archmage |
Posted - 07 Jan 2015 : 20:59:04
Yeah, I've read most of the 3.x books that deal with the fiends, (And I'm pretty sure that was the era Elminster in Hell was written) and I'm pretty sure there's nothing about Asmodeus being all powerful on his layer the way some deities are. He's still extremely powerful on his own, and one of the smartest SOBs in all the planes, so he's sitting pretty most of the time.
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
So, getting back to those 'layers' of intrigue on a planer scale - I think there is vast web of Machiavellian machinations that the planer politics is built on, and neither of those powers would want to 'rock the boat' on any grand scale. They hold their mighty positions through a convoluted system of checks-and-balances, proxies, allies, & agreements.
That's why I don't think I'd ever had godhood be a goal of a character I play. Instead of being able to go mess up the bad guys on my own, I have to have my worshippers do it. Being a deity sounds boring. |
| Mirtek |
Posted - 07 Jan 2015 : 20:00:56
quote:
Originally posted by Shemmy
Asmodeus has absolute control over the entirety of the 9 Hells. A single deity is a candle flame held before the sun by comparison within the bounds of Baator*. It's the same but slightly lesser situation with Lesvistus and Set, or Bel and Tiamat, Lolth and Pale Night, etc. Archfiends are relatively limited outside of their native plane, but within it they're absolutely stronger than a deity in many instances,
Not in 1e, definately not in 2e and not in 3.x and 4e either. From the little blurbs we have in the 5e MM it seems that it's not the case in 5e either (e.g. the short description of the nine hells pointing out how Asmodeus is the only creature there with the powers of a lesser deity. And yes that means whoever wrote that forgot about Tiamat).
Archfiends varied from all being lesser deities on their home planes (1e) to some being deities themselves and some just being stated monsters (in 2e, yes that made no sense in some cases, e.g. Grazzt) to being weaker much than deities (3.x) to beig slightly weaker than deities (4e).
In 2e some fluff might have come closest to your idea, but that was mostly presented as "maybes".
Was Set's domain ever so slightly shrinking or expanding? Or interchangeably both in a slow tug of war? Hard to tell talking about inches on a domain containing hundreds of miles.
If anything that tug of war is the best source showing an archfiend as equal to a deity (after the 1e articels on hell noted the problem as why a greater power like Set would not just dominate the lesser powers that are the archdevils and how Greenwood placed Bane on Acheron specifically to avoid this issue). But an upperhand for Levistus would have looked different
quote:
Originally posted by Shemmy
Not exactly. 2e's 'Guide to Hell' gave him the powers of a greater god, but not divine status.
No, it flat out stated the he is a greater deity (p.48).
quote:
Originally posted by Shemmy
It also stands by itself on that particular take, with later sources uniformly not continuing with that story
Indeed
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Remember, Vecna is considered a god, and yet, 'The Dark Powers' of Ravenloft were able to trap him.
Vecna was a demigod at this point and even so the adventure mentioned several times how no other prisoners could rattle at the bars of his prisons with as much force as him and how the Dark Powers this time might haven bitten of more than they can chew by snatching a demigod |
| Markustay |
Posted - 07 Jan 2015 : 19:54:54
Its all part of those 'wheels within wheels' we really don't see all of.
I think Mystra is way more powerful then any Greater God has the right to be (and we've had some pretty good explanations as to how that is possible around here). I think Asmodeus - who is a fallen archangel (I think that was in the 3e sources) - is on-par with her within his own realm. They are both 'gods', and also a bit more powerful then normal deities (in certain ways).
So, getting back to those 'layers' of intrigue on a planer scale - I think there is vast web of Machiavellian machinations that the planer politics is built on, and neither of those powers would want to 'rock the boat' on any grand scale. They hold their mighty positions through a convoluted system of checks-and-balances, proxies, allies, & agreements.
Mystra could theoretically topple Asmodeus in Hell... and then what? Its hers? She has to battle infinite armies to keep it? Or does she just walk away and some other power grabs the seat? Something worse, or will there just be an endless struggle within hell itself, thus freeing the demons from the Bloodwar to wreak havoc across the multiverse?
Asmodeus could theoretically beat Mystra (especially within his own realm), but then what? He becomes the new 'god of magic' for Realmspace? Would he really want that? Better to rule in hell then be burdened with responsibility of running a mortal religion and answering 'prayers' (just the thought of that would make him vomit, I would imagine). Does he just absorb her power and ignore her responsibilities? What of HER allies? Not just on Toril - she has friends all over the Multiverse (just read the entry for Wee Jas in On Hallowed Ground). What of the Overpower Ao? He may come looking for Asmodeus. The Lord of serpents may be able to beat him as well on his home turf, but I think that would exhaust him, and leave him open for attack from other arch-fiends. Even if it was just other gods, such a battle would leave Asmodeus weak... something he can ill-afford.
No... I think the two of them would avoid conflict. Asmodeus would HAVE TO have challenged Mystra on his home-turf to save face, which is why she avoided being noticed (or, perhaps the wily old devil knew she was there, but chose not to pick that fight himself). Better to pretend he didn't see her then to open that can of worms. |
| Rikudou |
Posted - 07 Jan 2015 : 19:27:04
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
This is why I have reinterpreted the term 'god' to mean any being of higher then exarch (demigod) status.
A deity is a god. A primordial is a god. A primordial isn't a deity. That helps sweep a lot of the 4e contradictions under the rug (not nearly all, mind you, but a nice chunk of it). Thus, one can surmise that Asmodeus was always 'a god', depending upon your PoV. His status as a deity is questionable - that sort of connection is a double-edged sword, and one I don't think he'd be willing to risk (which is why I don't think he truly absorbed Azuth - I think he merely captured his essence for use... which would be a great way for them to fix some of the problems with the lore).
A being like Asmodeus - or the Lady of Pain even - is actually of 'Overgod' status within their own plane/realm. Unlike a deity, however, they don't have a lot of (direct) power outside of it (as Shemmy has already stated). Remember, Vecna is considered a god, and yet, 'The Dark Powers' of Ravenloft were able to trap him. Within their domain, an Overpower has ABSOLUTE control (and ironically, also happens to be the only place they are truly vulnerable, which is why I think a god's domain is actually its 'heart'/center).
If Asmodeus is all-powerful in Baator then why didn't he grab the chance to abduct Mystra and take her power when she initially went there to rescue Elminster, could he have done it or is Mystra beyond his league even inside his dominion? Or was Asmodeus simply afraid that taking her divinity would rally the gods against him? |
| Markustay |
Posted - 07 Jan 2015 : 13:16:55
This is why I have reinterpreted the term 'god' to mean any being of higher then exarch (demigod) status.
A deity is a god. A primordial is a god. A primordial isn't a deity. That helps sweep a lot of the 4e contradictions under the rug (not nearly all, mind you, but a nice chunk of it). Thus, one can surmise that Asmodeus was always 'a god', depending upon your PoV. His status as a deity is questionable - that sort of connection is a double-edged sword, and one I don't think he'd be willing to risk (which is why I don't think he truly absorbed Azuth - I think he merely captured his essence for use... which would be a great way for them to fix some of the problems with the lore).
A being like Asmodeus - or the Lady of Pain even - is actually of 'Overgod' status within their own plane/realm. Unlike a deity, however, they don't have a lot of (direct) power outside of it (as Shemmy has already stated). Remember, Vecna is considered a god, and yet, 'The Dark Powers' of Ravenloft were able to trap him. Within their domain, an Overpower has ABSOLUTE control (and ironically, also happens to be the only place they are truly vulnerable, which is why I think a god's domain is actually its 'heart'/center). |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 07 Jan 2015 : 12:51:31
quote:
Originally posted by Rikudou
The Primordials held power equal (if not greater than) the greater gods (like Dendar and Kezef) but unlike the gods they do not need worshippers to maintain their power, the Demon Lords and Archdevils don't need worshippers to survive but they do have cults and worshippers from whom they can draw power from much like the gods, is it fair to say that these mightiest of fiends are a mixture of both Primordial and Estelar divine qualities?
Throw out there that primordials are also generally not "idea" based but usually some kind of "elemental" basis.... though said element might be darkness, light, negative energy, etc... The Demon Lords are different in that respect. So, while I wouldn't have a problem saying that an Archfey and a primordial are similar, I would be less inclined to do so with fiends and celestials. |
| Shemmy |
Posted - 07 Jan 2015 : 10:01:46
quote:
Originally posted by Rikudou
The Primordials held power equal (if not greater than) the greater gods (like Dendar and Kezef) but unlike the gods they do not need worshippers to maintain their power, the Demon Lords and Archdevils don't need worshippers to survive but they do have cults and worshippers from whom they can draw power from much like the gods, is it fair to say that these mightiest of fiends are a mixture of both Primordial and Estelar divine qualities?
The concept of Primordials is problematic, because they're from the core 4e world, and only make full sense within that cosmos's framework and assumptions. Bringing them into 4e FR was torturous when it came to reconciling previous planar lore, and IMO it's really no different if you try to include them or just that terminology in 5e (have we seen the term used in 5e? I haven't been paying attention that closely yet).
Really there's a patchwork hodgepodge of lore that's like a basket of cute kittens, except some of them are fighting with each other and if you reach in and pick out the ones that play best with each other, there's broken glass in the bottom that you'll invariably get a handful of, much to your regret. It's late so I'm making imaginative metaphors. :D |
| Rikudou |
Posted - 07 Jan 2015 : 09:32:04
The Primordials held power equal (if not greater than) the greater gods (like Dendar and Kezef) but unlike the gods they do not need worshippers to maintain their power, the Demon Lords and Archdevils don't need worshippers to survive but they do have cults and worshippers from whom they can draw power from much like the gods, is it fair to say that these mightiest of fiends are a mixture of both Primordial and Estelar divine qualities? |
| Shadowsoul |
Posted - 07 Jan 2015 : 08:59:26
Ahhhhhhhhh! I hate a lack of continuity. |
| Shemmy |
Posted - 07 Jan 2015 : 07:50:41
quote:
Don't forget that he was made into a god during 2nd edition. His true form is supposed to be this giant serpent that fell from the heavens and his body falling created the 9 Hells. He was supposedly still injured and that his blood flowing created the River Styx. The Satan look was supposed to be an avatar. I believe they had him as a greater god. Can't remember which supplement that was.
Not exactly. 2e's 'Guide to Hell' gave him the powers of a greater god, but not divine status. It also stands by itself on that particular take, with later sources uniformly not continuing with that story of Asmodeus's history except for the idea that he might have a greater form beyond that commonly observed and that he fell from an earlier status. That was later made explicit in FC2 that he was originally a servitor of primeval LN entities and during the earlier precursor to the Blood War his corruption to LE led to his and the first Baatezu being exiled into Baator (which was already there, lining up with history from 2e Planescape and those same elements further explored in 3e's FC1). |
| Shadowsoul |
Posted - 07 Jan 2015 : 07:31:23
quote:
Originally posted by Shemmy
quote:
Originally posted by Shadowsoul
Asmodeus is now a full fledged deity, again.
Which makes little to no sense unless you're willing to discard large amounts of lore from 2e and 3e.
Asmodeus has absolute control over the entirety of the 9 Hells. A single deity is a candle flame held before the sun by comparison within the bounds of Baator*. It's the same but slightly lesser situation with Lesvistus and Set, or Bel and Tiamat, Lolth and Pale Night, etc. Archfiends are relatively limited outside of their native plane, but within it they're absolutely stronger than a deity in many instances, and not beholden to mortal worship (unless they also choose to embrace godhood in addition to their status as an archfiend).
We're unfortunately stuck it seems with lore from 4e that only made a lick of sense within the context of 4e's different planar structure. A lot of that seems to have been carried over unexplained and at odds with lore from the Great Wheel, despite the Great Wheel in modified form being back in place.
*I will note that this still doesn't make it even remotely plausible for Asmodeus to alter the nature of not just tieflings with diabolic descent, but also those that had no heritage to devils whatsoever.
The meta explanation here is that it really depends on what edition you're looking at, or even within a given edition which author or authors are writing a given sourcebook and what lore they're incorporating, retconning, or in some instances just not aware of.
Don't forget that he was made into a god during 2nd edition. His true form is supposed to be this giant serpent that fell from the heavens and his body falling created the 9 Hells. He was supposedly still injured and that his blood flowing created the River Styx. The Satan look was supposed to be an avatar. I believe they had him as a greater god. Can't remember which supplement that was. |
| Shemmy |
Posted - 07 Jan 2015 : 06:01:59
quote:
Originally posted by Shadowsoul
Asmodeus is now a full fledged deity, again.
Which makes little to no sense unless you're willing to discard large amounts of lore from 2e and 3e.
Asmodeus has absolute control over the entirety of the 9 Hells. A single deity is a candle flame held before the sun by comparison within the bounds of Baator*. It's the same but slightly lesser situation with Lesvistus and Set, or Bel and Tiamat, Lolth and Pale Night, etc. Archfiends are relatively limited outside of their native plane, but within it they're absolutely stronger than a deity in many instances, and not beholden to mortal worship (unless they also choose to embrace godhood in addition to their status as an archfiend).
We're unfortunately stuck it seems with lore from 4e that only made a lick of sense within the context of 4e's different planar structure. A lot of that seems to have been carried over unexplained and at odds with lore from the Great Wheel, despite the Great Wheel in modified form being back in place.
*I will note that this still doesn't make it even remotely plausible for Asmodeus to alter the nature of not just tieflings with diabolic descent, but also those that had no heritage to devils whatsoever.
The meta explanation here is that it really depends on what edition you're looking at, or even within a given edition which author or authors are writing a given sourcebook and what lore they're incorporating, retconning, or in some instances just not aware of. |
| Shadowsoul |
Posted - 06 Jan 2015 : 19:51:57
Asmodeus is now a full fledged deity, again. |
| Mirtek |
Posted - 06 Jan 2015 : 19:42:39
Mephistopheles was overflowing with joy as if christmas had come early upon being able to absorb a third of a quasideity and immediately shouted that Asmodeus better starts trembling in his fortress.
quote:
Originally posted by Eilserus
Yep, when she showed up on Avernus looking for Elminster, the legions of hell started opening rifts to invade Toril if I recall.
It was her presence in hell that opened the rifts for the legions of hell (or at least those legions of hell that were not raining dead from the sky all over Avernus for trying to oppose her). At the end she oppened a gate directly into Asmodeus' throne room |
| Eilserus |
Posted - 06 Jan 2015 : 19:00:59
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
It also has to do with whether they are within their own domain, on their home plane, and whether they have followers on that plane, and how large a following it is.
Thus, the same two beings having a fight on different worlds/planes would have different results. Such is the nature of a multiverse. Even Mystra was nervous about upsetting Asmodeus on his home turf.
Yep, when she showed up on Avernus looking for Elminster, the legions of hell started opening rifts to invade Toril if I recall. |
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