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Originally posted by Fellfire

I believe it was in Elaine's Elves of Evermeet where it was stated that Araushnee was black-skinned and white-haired and was patron of those elves of a similar coloration leading one to believe that such phenotypes (?) existed before Corellon's Curse.

From the same source, IIRC, Ka'Narlist was drow-hued in hair, skin and eyes long before the Descent, though I seem to also remember older, darker powers being mentioned, presumably Ghaunadaur.

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Originally posted by George Krashos

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Originally posted by Mystic Lemur

George, every source I've read (which is by no means all) has said that all the dark elves (Ilythiir and Miyeritar) were turned into Drow. It was an unintended consequence of the high magic used to punish the bad ones (or maybe the mages just didn't care). I'm a little hazy on if Elistraee was turned by the spell, or chose her new form when she chose to become a drow deity.

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The seminal source - "Cormanthyr" timeline (p.31) actually says "Correlon's magic, as directed through his priests and High Mages, transforms the dark elves, whether the corrupt Ilythiiri or others, into the drow."

At face value, the simple conclusion from this would be as you say, that all dark elves were so transformed. I'm not into simple, I like nuance and I hate "absolutes" in the Realms. Absolutes paint you into corners. To me that sentence can be interpreted to state that the word "corrupt" has meaning there - otherwise, why use it - and so "corruption" (i.e. being evil) is the touchstone for transformation, not simply racial identity.

In simple terms, we have three, current possible ways the Descent worked:

1. along racial lines (you were a dark elf and got transformed)
2. along alignment lines (you were an evil dark elf and got transformed)
3. along religious lines (you were a non-Seldarine worshipping dark elf and got transformed)

I note that the subsequent Lady Penitent novels appear to subscribe to the basic option 1, with their twist being that those without the taint of Wendonai or who had become her worshippers could be transformed back into dark elves. Given this, my view is that if you could be transformed back if you were one of the "good ones", why couldn't there have been a way to avoid the curse in the first place?

Again, I consider that there were ways to avoid the curse from the get-go. Steven Schend gave us the sharn as an "out" (with the rider that you couldn't un-Sharn yourself or you would be transformed so it would appear that he gives credence to the "everyone gets transformed" line). My view is that in unique and special ways, here and there, and in small numbers, some dark elf individuals and "important" bloodlines were given the "heads up" (likely by Sehanine) and provided with means to avoid the curse. I recall Ed letting me know that the spell "Spell Engine" could be used as a means of avoiding the Spellplague, so extrapolating from that, there must have been ways tied to the Weave and magic that could prevent the Curse from affecting you. But that's my view and clearly YMMV.

Enjoying the varied and interesting viewpoints.

-- George Krashos

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Originally posted by ericlboyd

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Originally posted by Fellfire

I was under the impression that wood/green/copper elves were the same thing.

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In 3.5e FR, there are six subraces:

Sun / Gold Elves
Moon / Silver Elves
Wood / Copper Elves
Wild / Green Elves
Drow
Avariels

Arguably Lythari are a seventh.

And the "extinct" pre-Drow dark elves are an eighth.

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Originally posted by Mirtek

I think he sees no difference between them, he's just that full of hatred. Like in that one short story in the anthology: A group of Shevarashan attack a small drow outpost and kills all drow. Then they discover a drow child did survive. One Shevarashan refused to kill the little girl and her companions just kill her and the child and move on.

I beleive he would hunt Ellistrae and her followers if that wouldn't cost him support of the Seldarine.

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ALLIES: Callarduaran Smoothhands, Haela Brightaxe, Lurue, Mystra, the Seldarine, Selune

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Shevarash has allied himself with both enemies of Lolth and other seekers of revenge, namely Callarduran Smoothhands, Hoar, Shar and Shaundakul. Like his patron Fenmarel Mestarine, the Black Archer is something of an outcast among the Seldarine; the others find him to be too dour and grim. Shevarash's foes are the evil deities of the drow pantheon and, to a lesser extent, the other evil deities of the Underdark.

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Solonor Thelandira, Shevarash, Gwaeron Windstrom, and Eilistraee are all on good terms with Fenmarel Mestarine, but only the beauty and gentleness of Sehanine Moonbow can bring him into the council halls of the Seldarine.

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Originally posted by Eilserus

I think we need to see drow cities that don't follow the Menzo / Ched Nasad structure.

Undraeth for instance is ruled by Queen Nathglaryst who is a priestess of Lolth and powerful sorcerer. She's supposedly insane and worshipped as an avatar of Lolth. There's no real high ranking priestesses because Nathglaryst puts them on the altar and gives them to Lolth.

Ed has in the past made mention in novels of drow priestesses attempting to breed I believe Sylune with spiders to create biddable driders for drow warriors for battles with rival deep cities of drow.

There's also been mentioned that trading families rule some communities of dark elves, who don't like the expense of war and just send the hot heads off on suicide missions.

There's a hidden drow city in Ed's novel Silverfall called Telnarquel, the Hidden City. Abandoned by the drow now (and why?), but who lived there etc.?

These are the type of cities I'd love to know more about. And two of them seem to follow Lolth but not in the way we know. So surely there's more out there that follow the other gods, or dark outer planar powers.

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Originally posted by LordofBones

I think the drow need to get away from Lolth and Eilistraee for a while. The various other Underdark cities show that the drow are perfectly capable of having lives outside of the Spider-Psycho and Token Good Teammate.

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Originally posted by melodichand

Now I am getting confused. The way everyone is wording this is making it sound like all drow have always had the blood of Wendonai.

But it is my understanding that the drow were changed into what they are THOUSANDS of years before the blood came. And upon Eilistrae's death all drow not affected by the blood(Mostly her followers) were "cured" into becoming dark elves(Or brown elves, as the thread has been referring to them).

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Wendonai is a balor lord who, in -11500 DR was tasked by Lolth to seduce the Sethomiir clan, rulers of the Ilythiiri into her worship and grant them evil magics. He succeeded and was probably the greatest (but by no means the only) influence on the fall of the Dark elf.

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Originally posted by Irennan

Idk, it wasn't really a forced change, more something on the lines of a curse removal (since, if I got your version right, they were trying to get rid of Wendonai).

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Originally posted by Irennan

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Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

While I normally really like your lore, Brian, the brainwashing aspect bugs me...

So here's how I'd spin it. I'd keep everything up until that part. What I would change would be the end goal of the ritual.

As I understand it, one of the things we learned in the Lady Penitent trilogy was that the drow carry the taint of Wendonai. I'd work with that.

The eladrin discovered the taint of Wendonai, and in their typically arrogant way, thought if they removed that from the equation, the dark elves would naturally return to the light. So they created and cast this big spell, with the intent of purging the taint of Wendonai, and any other fell influences.

However, some of the casters did not have such pure intentions. Perhaps they'd been subverted by the dark elves, or perhaps they themselves were similarly tainted, or maybe they were controlled or even replaced by dark elves. Either way, these guys twisted the spell, intending to subvert the magic and use it to make the dark elves more powerful than their lighter brethren. And the end result of this was the creation of the drow.

The good guys among the ritual casters were very surprised at what had happened. They'd had good, if misguided, intentions, and were horrified at what happened. And it may be a nifty element if the rogue casters turned on them, as well, making sure that the change could not be undone. The rogue casters were driven off, but at a high cost.

The survivors kept quiet about what actually happened, and in time, the whole thing got blamed on the Seldarine.

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But the ''taint'' of Wendonai doesn't do really much to the drow (except barring them from Arvandor), they act as they do mainly because of context (as it is shown by many instances of drow choosing differently, especially when taken out of said context). Unless you meant that this was what the rest of the elves believed.

Also, this would make the light elves look a bit too much like the good guys (save for the Vyshaan) and the dark elves the bad ones (if we exclude the Miyeritari, who were basically exterminated), IMO. Honestly I prefer a more morally blurred version of the Descent, where neither drow, nor elves are completely in the right and both have points going for them.

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Originally posted by Mystic Lemur

George, every source I've read (which is by no means all) has said that all the dark elves (Ilythiir and Miyeritar) were turned into Drow. It was an unintended consequence of the high magic used to punish the bad ones (or maybe the mages just didn't care). I'm a little hazy on if Elistraee was turned by the spell, or chose her new form when she chose to become a drow deity.

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Originally posted by Brian R. James


Millennia later, the coronal of the eladrin nation of Aryvandaar sought to spread the faith of the Seldarine to their “primitive” neighbor Miyeritar. To the coronal’s thinking (goaded on by the fallen angel Malkizid) any elf which rejected the ‘true faith’ of the Seldarine was branded a ‘dark-elf’ traitor and must be forcibly brought into the faith. The green elves of Miyeritar resisted and Aryvandaar invaded, thus beginning the Crown Wars.

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Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

While I normally really like your lore, Brian, the brainwashing aspect bugs me...

So here's how I'd spin it. I'd keep everything up until that part. What I would change would be the end goal of the ritual.

As I understand it, one of the things we learned in the Lady Penitent trilogy was that the drow carry the taint of Wendonai. I'd work with that.

The eladrin discovered the taint of Wendonai, and in their typically arrogant way, thought if they removed that from the equation, the dark elves would naturally return to the light. So they created and cast this big spell, with the intent of purging the taint of Wendonai, and any other fell influences.

However, some of the casters did not have such pure intentions. Perhaps they'd been subverted by the dark elves, or perhaps they themselves were similarly tainted, or maybe they were controlled or even replaced by dark elves. Either way, these guys twisted the spell, intending to subvert the magic and use it to make the dark elves more powerful than their lighter brethren. And the end result of this was the creation of the drow.

The good guys among the ritual casters were very surprised at what had happened. They'd had good, if misguided, intentions, and were horrified at what happened. And it may be a nifty element if the rogue casters turned on them, as well, making sure that the change could not be undone. The rogue casters were driven off, but at a high cost.

The survivors kept quiet about what actually happened, and in time, the whole thing got blamed on the Seldarine.

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Originally posted by Brian R. James

I have a somewhat divergent take on the Descent of the Drow. I think it's much more interesting to frame this story of this as a religious struggle, rather than a racial conflict.

In ancient times only one sub-species of elf existed, the green elves. Like their faerie kin, the green elves lived in the Feywild. The pantheon of gods known as the Seldarine were unknown to the fey, who instead venerated the archfey of the Seelie Court.

In the aftermath of the Dawn War between the gods and the primordials, a growing number of green elves began to worship an ascendant archfey turned god, Corellon Larethian. Fueled by this powerful influx of faith, Corellon blessed his flock by changing them into sun elves. Later, another group of green elves would share a similar blessing, changing into moon elves at the behest of Sehanine Moonbow.

Back on Toril, the end of the Days of Thunder heralded the rise of dragon empires across the world. The leShay, last of the enigmatic creator races, opened gates between between the Feywild and Toril, summoning several tribes of green elves to the mortal world. With their primal powers, the green elves succeeded in limiting the dominion of the dragons and giants alike. By the time the eldarin (sun elves and moon elves) found their way to Faerûn the Age of Dragons was already in its twilight.

As the elven nations began to spread across the Faerûn, it became increasingly important to the faithful of the Seldarine to proselytize their beliefs and convert the heathen green elves to the true faith. In many cases they were quite successful, with many green elves adopting the faiths of Rillifane, Solonor, or others.

One tribe of green elves, however, the Ilythiiri, were staunch in their rejection of the Seldarine. “Where was saintly Corellon Larethian and his priests, when their kind were being slaughtered en masse by the dragon overlords of the south?” Desperate in their struggle, these southern elves turned to other, darker, powers to aid them in their fight against the dragons (Ghaunadaur among others).

Millennia later, the coronal of the eladrin nation of Aryvandaar sought to spread the faith of the Seldarine to their “primitive” neighbor Miyeritar. To the coronal’s thinking (goaded on by the fallen angel Malkizid) any elf which rejected the ‘true faith’ of the Seldarine was branded a ‘dark-elf’ traitor and must be forcibly brought into the faith. The green elves of Miyeritar resisted and Aryvandaar invaded, thus beginning the Crown Wars.

When Miyeritar was scoured by killing storms, the Ilythiiri were outraged. By this time the Ilythiiri (not all ‘dark elves’) were largely corrupted by their dark gods. Using vile magic, the ilythiiri marched and burned their way across the south. Reports of these atrocities just further reinforced the belief in the eladrin that Corellon’s teachings were the only ‘right and true’ path.

In time the eladrin (and Seldarin worshiping green elves) came together to cast the mighty ritual which would finally force the dark-elves to embrace the light of the Seldarine. But something went awry in the casting. Instead of bringing the heathens into the fold, the high magic bleached the hair and darkened the bodies of the non-believers to onyx (all non-believers mind you, the majority being green elves but a score or more eladrin as well).

Thus were the drow of Faerûn born. Their striking similarity in appearance to the children of Kiaransalee leading some to believe that the dark goddess may have had a hand in corrupting the high magic ritual leading to the Descent of the Drow.

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Originally posted by Aulduron

Except that the Miyeritari worshiped the Seldarine, according to Qarlynds Selukiira

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Originally posted by Aldrick

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Originally posted by Irennan

The others were the ''pure Miyeritari'', who should be extremely few. TBH, after like 20000 years of living with other drow, I can't see ''pure Miyeritari'' still being around. Many of them also likely died trying to get on the surface, or killed by other drow.

However, the more I think about it, the more it makes sense to assume that followers of Shevarash would be divided on the matter, but IMO more because of prejudice rather than ''legitimate'' reasons.

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Yeah, we would think that, but a lot of things about those novels did not make sense. I also recall that an estimate was given at some point in the past (by Ed, I think?). It was a sizable chunk.

Maybe someone remembers the source, unless I am misremembering. For some reason I am recalling something like 25%--which, yes, sounds outrageous, but whatever.

Either way, I agree with your last statement. No matter what, it is easy to envision at least some portion (and a sizable portion at that) of the cult wanting to skin them all alive; simply because they are bigots. It is not like they really liked the faithful of Eilistraee before, and of course she merged with her brother before her death.

I think it is a safe bet to say that at absolute best their relationship with Dark Elves is... chilly. At best.

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Originally posted by Fellfire

I was under the impression that wood/green/copper elves were the same thing.

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