| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Shadowsoul |
Posted - 25 Jan 2014 : 14:03:01
When I sit down and read about Golarion, the more it seems like Forgotten Realms. In my opinion, it has a very "Realms" feel to it which I like very much.
I would actually love to see some of the best Forgottem Realms authors head on over to Paizo and start writing for their campaign world. I just feel like Paizo would be better suited for this than WotC. I actually could see Golarion become a rival of the Forgotten Realms. |
| 30 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 12 Jan 2015 : 16:39:46
We're starting to go astray from the original topic, here... |
| Markustay |
Posted - 12 Jan 2015 : 13:31:35
They have left so many great pieces of lore lying around that could be used to achieve this goal. For example, what if the Dark Chronology was actually the alternate reality? FR could have done a twist that no-one (AFAIK) has ever done - present the existing setting as the 'wrong one'. I've seen little bits all over the place that they could run with to accomplish this (there is even an 'Ao reset McGuffin' in the 4e CG!!!)
quote:
Originally posted by The Arcanamach
When the novels set in Thay were published (the ones where Tam thought he could completely destroy/remake Toril and set himself up as the only deity) I came up with the idea of Elminster casting a 'grand spell' that would allow him to reset the timeline to an earlier point in history. This would allow him to go back as far as when he was a youth and retain the knowledge he had gained in the interim.
Yup - thats what I mean by 'soft' (extra soft?). Someone goes back and changes one little thing. Most of the other world events would have still occurred (Dracorage, Tuigan War, Threat from the Sea, all the Drizzt stuff, etc), but certain key events - that were not all that great to begin with - could be dropped. For instance, Elmintser (or even a party of 'nobodys', like PC's) goes back and warns Mystra/Ao/whoever about the Tablets of Fate getting stolen. That puts the kibosh on the dark Chronology right there (a series of events starting with Cyric rising). In fact, if they wanted to keep the ToT (despite most fans not liking it), they could even just have someone go back and kill Cyric somehow, before those events. If Kelemvor had not stumbled across Cyric in that cave full of giants and rescued him, it would be a much different world then it is today.
The whole premise is completely adjustable - what if someone killed Karsus instead, and Mystryl never died? Imagine the world we would have then? Or even if we simply remove the Crown of Horns from play, and that female Wizard managed to save Netheril instead (thus eliminating the need for Karsus to commit his folly)? However, killing Cyric would leave the least amount of perturbations, I would imagine, so that would be the softest reset. |
| Gustaveren |
Posted - 11 Jan 2015 : 16:43:34
My favoured approach would be for the players in something like 1372 or 1373 to uncover prophecies send back in time by Mystra at her death or Labelas Enoreth at the time of the spell plague in order to give persons in the past a chance for changing the future. |
| The Arcanamach |
Posted - 11 Jan 2015 : 16:10:33
quote:
A reboot could have fixed all that, but they chose against that approach (a soft one, which would have a time-altering element, so that most of the lore could remain 'as is').
When the novels set in Thay were published (the ones where Tam thought he could completely destroy/remake Toril and set himself up as the only deity) I came up with the idea of Elminster casting a 'grand spell' that would allow him to reset the timeline to an earlier point in history. This would allow him to go back as far as when he was a youth and retain the knowledge he had gained in the interim.
In other words, a reboot of the setting. It would be just as cheesy as the idea presented in the Thay novels, but it would have been more palatable to my tastes. Btw, El's ritual wouldn't actually 'reset' the timeline so much as create an alternate one.
Now that I'm done hijacking your thread I'll bow out.  |
| Markustay |
Posted - 11 Jan 2015 : 15:41:48
Because Golarion was built from the ground-up by a unified team of designers from scratch, its ancient (primordial) history has much better continuity then FR.* Realms designers now have the problem of going back and trying to make very disparate chunks all fit together nicely, which sometimes leads to some great lore, but just as often leads to some 'smelly bits'.
So all of Golarion's dragon, giant, 'elder race', abomination, etc, lore is very consistent and leads right into the current setting. Its a lot better system then back-filling in holes (which is now unavoidable because of the nature of how FR was first published). A reboot could have fixed all that, but they chose against that approach (a soft one, which would have a time-altering element, so that most of the lore could remain 'as is').
I'd love to see a new Realms history book - a combination of stories and timelines - that takes us from the very first days all the way to the present, in great sweeping strokes. In hindsight, I personally think the GHotR was the wrong approach - nailing down finite details while ignoring great swaths of everything else. It winds up creating more inconsistency then it fixes. FR has hundreds of sentient races - focusing on just three of them is a huge gaff, IMO. We need an outline of the world's history, and then build off of that.
*EDIT: After a reread, I realize this is not enitrely correct. I actual feel like Varisia isn't as great a fit as the rest, because it was created first, in a bubble, and they had to do much the same with it as FR had to do with everything, and some of it feels 'forced' (like three of the main human races all coming from that one area, while only a handful of others come from the rest of the planet). So, yes, Golarion had its growing pains as well. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 11 Jan 2015 : 14:37:13
Cayden Cailean is the Golarion deity I absolutely love.
As I recall, Golarion's draconic lore was pretty nifty, too. |
| Marc |
Posted - 11 Jan 2015 : 10:08:00
She's cool, I use mostly RW/Planescape mythology, so I've changed her into the Moirai (Moira). |
| Markustay |
Posted - 10 Jan 2015 : 23:40:58
Pharasma is Da Bomb - she is the very first thing I borrowed from that setting. So much more interesting then Myrkul, Kelemvor, and Cyric put together.
Of course, I still have those three as well. I don't 'lose' things, I just demote them in importance. I like an inclusive setting.  |
| CorellonsDevout |
Posted - 10 Jan 2015 : 22:36:53
It was in the deities section of the Inner Sea sourcebook. I didn't get the impression they were referring to the past, but I could be wrong. |
| Marc |
Posted - 10 Jan 2015 : 22:34:26
Don't know where it says that they are involved, only in the past, and every few thousand years.
In the novels I've read Pharasma, the goddess of death, acts only once, the rest is through her agents, psychopomps. This is a planar novel, other novels probably have even less involvement.
I'd like to see a god appear, but it'd have to be a lot more impressive than what I've seen in FR novels. |
| CorellonsDevout |
Posted - 10 Jan 2015 : 06:11:44
quote:
Originally posted by Marc
I've only read the Death Heretic novels, the biggest difference is that gods aren't directly involved with the world, and there are more atheists.
According to the Pathfinder sourcebook The Inner Sea World Guide, deities are actually quite active, much like Faerun. I'm fine with that, but I'm probably one of the few people here who actually likes it when the gods are involved (though I will agree there comes a point when it is overdone).
All this being said, I in truth know very little about Pathfinder. I bought a few of the sourcebooks because there was a short time when I was involved with a gaming group. But it didn't last long, because now half the members aren't friends anymore, and I don't like the GM much anyway. So I can't really vouch for the setting. I may pick up the novels though. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 10 Jan 2015 : 02:21:56
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
There's plenty of similarities... but at the same time, I could say the same thing for the Midgard campaign setting as well. I could say similar for the Sword & Sorcery world of scarred lands too. In fact, I've got so many campaign worlds I would love to try out, and too little time to even remotely consider doing it.
Other than the fact that they are both fantasy worlds with a couple of similar names and places modeled on some real world locations, I don't see any real similarities. And I say this as someone who has read just about every sourcebook for each setting.
I'm not bashing Golarion; I do like it, and I think Paizo is far more in tune with the gaming community than WotC is. I just don't see any real points of comparison between the cities. |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 10 Jan 2015 : 00:24:40
There's plenty of similarities... but at the same time, I could say the same thing for the Midgard campaign setting as well. I could say similar for the Sword & Sorcery world of scarred lands too. In fact, I've got so many campaign worlds I would love to try out, and too little time to even remotely consider doing it. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 09 Jan 2015 : 23:22:43
I, personally, haven't seen any real similarities between the Realms and Golarion. |
| CorellonsDevout |
Posted - 09 Jan 2015 : 23:14:40
I may start reading Pathfinder novels, especially if there aren't going to be as many FR novels coming out anymore. It may not be the same, but if it's similar, it's better than nothing. |
| Markustay |
Posted - 09 Jan 2015 : 00:11:00
I still have Semphar and Murghôm, so I already have that vibe. The Thayans in my Misbegotten Realms are the Shoanti from the Varisia/PF material - tell me they don't look like the perfect fit. They were the indigenous peoples of that region (FR's Raumvari race), who fell under the sway of Mulhorand for a time, and then won back their freedom (through dark sorcery).
My Mulhorand is not Egyptian-flavored, BTW. Its more of 'Lankhmar' kind of place (ancient, decadent empire falling apart). I have Osirion down in my Garund/Chult region for that flavor (two realms, actually - I also have a region similar to the 'Tomb Kings' from Warhammer).
|
| Marc |
Posted - 08 Jan 2015 : 20:44:43
Calimshan and Turmish are first countries I'd also move, replaced by Anuire or something. Thay would not have a Egyptian vibe, but Persian/Aryan, ruled by corrupted magi and fire worshippers. |
| Markustay |
Posted - 08 Jan 2015 : 02:07:03
This is a map of my campaign region (the old one, actually - a bunch of stuff has been changed since I posted that). You can see where I fit Korvosa, and how I merged Thay with Cheliax.
I also moved the Swordcoast/North over into the Unapproachable east, because I wanted the campaign centered around the Inner sea (another thing FR has in common with Golarion).
Thats just the main campaign area - I got the rest of everything laid-out as well (its all merged with Golarion and parts of Mystara). There's a little bit of everything, and its all close enough for my players to reach easily (until they get higher level and then I will have to finish the other sections). I think the only thing that remained 100% FR pristine was Cormyr & the Dalelands. Impiltur is where Turmish used to be, and Turmish moved south to the Chult/Shar sub-continent. Amn, Tethyr, and Calimshan are south of what you see there (Unther moved, amongst other things). Thus, Calimshan is just north of Zakhara (old Golden Waters region), where I felt it belonged (having a 'Moorish' vibe).
Its easy to fit things when you start moving stuff around. 
EDIT: Thats Varisia at the bottom there, where Aglarond used to be. I had to make it 2/3 scale; I don't like doing that (because it throws-off the AP's), but its the only way it worked nicely. |
| Marc |
Posted - 07 Jan 2015 : 21:25:36
At first I liked Numeria, now only the Dominion of the Black is impressive. I have a technological faction-sect in Sigil, but none of that stuff is useful.
I only added stuff that I like, Druma looked like Sembia, Durpar, Chondath, or Amn. Decided for Amn cause of their clothing styles.
Crimson Throne campaign was excellent. Korvosa was impossible to place, should have picked the Wizard's Reach, but our other DM already had the Runelords campaign in the North. Kingmaker was easy, also moved the Border Kingdoms there.
Wish I had the time to use Absalom, and Mwangi with Mezro would be cool. In Nidal, I'd change Zon-Kuthon into a kyton.
Planar stuff is even better for adaptation, I prefer 9 outer planes to 17, with different names tough, also they changed a lot of monsters. |
| Markustay |
Posted - 07 Jan 2015 : 20:06:13
I got just about everything to fit (just left out a couple of minor things I didn't want*). For example, merging Sembia with Druma was simple as pie. One of the toughest was Thay/Cheliax, but I'm pretty proud of how it came out (had to make Thay fit both sets of lore). Many of the smaller realms I didn't bother to merge and just squeezed them in wherever they'd fit (as you did with Irrisen).
Fortunately, FR is so freakin' huge you can fit just about anything into it.
*Like Numeria and The Mana Wastes... although small bits of even them can be found buried inside of my FR stuff. |
| Marc |
Posted - 07 Jan 2015 : 16:53:51
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
The mountains are called Icerim in FR... and Icerime in Golarion. 
Yeah, I had the same few years ago. Also Irrisen was in the North Country, tough a smaller version, to fit. |
| Markustay |
Posted - 07 Jan 2015 : 16:06:15
I hadn't thought of it that way, but thats an interesting idea. Here I am wishing the Realms had gotten a reboot, and maybe we already have an example of what that would look like (but as you pointed-out, they had to rename stuff to avoid legal crap).
"Be careful what you wish for" indeed.
Golarion isn't The Forgotten Realms, but its a reasonable facsimile. I find it way too easy to blend the two together. |
| Gary Dallison |
Posted - 07 Jan 2015 : 15:27:00
Maybe we wont need WoTC to reboot FR. Perhaps Paizo are doing it already by just renaming everything. |
| Markustay |
Posted - 07 Jan 2015 : 15:24:30
So after an earlier post in this thread got me thinking about PF's Kingmaker again (and Steven Schend's wonderful Iobaria material), just for poops and giggles - and because I need a break from what I was working on - I decided to see what that would look like - a full blown canon conversion (as opposed to my Misbegotten one). I don't like the way normal conversions are done. Back in the day it wasn't so bad, since most of the modules were one-offs, but these newer APs are so lore-heavy and complicated that full conversions seem like a waste of time to me . After all, if you are going to run someone from level 1 all the way up to level 15+ (or whatever), then you may as well just use the setting it was intended for. Or just create your own similar adventure from scratch for the world of your choosing, since you have to rewrite everything anyway. This is why I prefer the 'blended' method, where you paste the entire adventure region into the world you like, so that all the maps and lore work 'right out of the box'.
I started out pasting it into the 3e FR map, and that was very messy. I kept losing Rashemen completely. I needed more room, so I went back to the older 1e/2e layout, and since I need some of the Hordelands, I went with the Fonstad Atlas map (because the 1e/2e campaign maps of Faerûn do not show enough of the Endless wastes). It was good fit. In fact, it was a DAMN GOOD FIT. The main mountain range I needed lined up perfectly with an existing one. Whilst doing all of this, I started thinking about the lore-blending, and that, too, was pretty seamless. Just a few caveats (Brevoy=Sossal, Ancient Iobaria=Raumathar, etc). I even have it where the Imaskari were the ones that destroyed the last vestiges of the primeval Cyclops empire on the Great Ice Sea. As I looked around, I found more and more pieces fit seamlessly... there were even tribes of centaurs in that area! (the Taan region in FR has them, and there was a Centaur kingdom existing in Thay before the Mulhorandi arrived).
So back to the map - all of this brain-storming was taking place while I was coaxing them together. As I marveled at how well both the lore and map merged so well, I came back to that one main mountain range - even the direction was ideal! So then I looked at the names - usually a big problem with this type of conversion (normally I just say one is the 'local name' and the other is the 'formal name').
The mountains are called Icerim in FR... and Icerime in Golarion.
WTH? That can't be coincidence, could it? I believe in serendipity, but thats just too much to be believed!  |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 06 Jan 2015 : 00:40:56
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
I only read one GH novel, and it made me not want to read anymore. I never read any DL novels (the setting just rubs me the wrong way... don't know why), and as for Eberron... plowed through one of those, and it was rough. I couldn't hold my interest AT ALL, and had to force myself to finish it (which was a waste of time, since it was the first in a series, and I had NO INTENTION of buying another).
Not a big fan of 'shared world' novels. I am a 'trekkie' from way back, but after just one Trek (drek) novel I gave up on those. For whatever reason The Forgotten Realms has been the only (almost*) shared-world setting that I have fully enjoyed in novels. Maybe its the size - it allows for a lot of different flavors (although shouldn't that apply even more-so to Scify?)
I really do have to try the PF novels - that setting is VERY interesting... but I am afraid it will start to pull me away again (it was my preferred setting during 4e). I would probably start with Elaine's - she is my favorite FR author (she hits spot-on on all my criteria).
*Almost - I loved the old Thieve's World series of novels, until the authors got into a 'war of power escalation" and the series turned to crap. Sadly, I think this is inevitable in a Shared World. "You blew up a planet? Well, I'm gonna blow up a solar system!!!"
However, that series did not exist beyond the novels (several RPG products were later made), so there was no other media to hold the standard against, which helped it... for awhile.
I gotta say, my experience has been very similar. Thieve's world and FR have been the two shared world experiences that truly held me. While I've read some of the PF novels, they're just not holding me. That being said, maybe it was the particular stories that I read. Dragonlance, I could get into anything by Weiss and Hickman, but no one else. I will say that the star wars short stories I've read were pretty good, though. But thieve's world was awesome. I loved Tempus and the Sons. |
| Marc |
Posted - 05 Jan 2015 : 21:16:47
I've only read the Death Heretic novels, the biggest difference is that gods aren't directly involved with the world, and there are more atheists. |
| Markustay |
Posted - 05 Jan 2015 : 13:49:33
I only read one GH novel, and it made me not want to read anymore. I never read any DL novels (the setting just rubs me the wrong way... don't know why), and as for Eberron... plowed through one of those, and it was rough. I couldn't hold my interest AT ALL, and had to force myself to finish it (which was a waste of time, since it was the first in a series, and I had NO INTENTION of buying another).
Not a big fan of 'shared world' novels. I am a 'trekkie' from way back, but after just one Trek (drek) novel I gave up on those. For whatever reason The Forgotten Realms has been the only (almost*) shared-world setting that I have fully enjoyed in novels. Maybe its the size - it allows for a lot of different flavors (although shouldn't that apply even more-so to Scify?)
I really do have to try the PF novels - that setting is VERY interesting... but I am afraid it will start to pull me away again (it was my preferred setting during 4e). I would probably start with Elaine's - she is my favorite FR author (she hits spot-on on all my criteria).
*Almost - I loved the old Thieve's World series of novels, until the authors got into a 'war of power escalation" and the series turned to crap. Sadly, I think this is inevitable in a Shared World. "You blew up a planet? Well, I'm gonna blow up a solar system!!!"
However, that series did not exist beyond the novels (several RPG products were later made), so there was no other media to hold the standard against, which helped it... for awhile. |
| Hawkins |
Posted - 04 Jan 2015 : 22:18:47
Having read a lot (maybe 75%) of the pre-Spellplague Forgotten Realms novels and all of the Pathfinder Tales novels, I definitely get more of a Realms-vibe. That being said, I never really got into Greyhawk or Dragonlance. My suggestions of the specific "sub"-series I would suggest the Radovan and Jeggare series (by Dave Gross, a veteran Realms author), the pirates series (by Chris Jackson, who happens to be an awesome person to hang out with for a few hours as well), Liar's Blade (by Tim Pratt, a veteran Realms author), and the Death's Heretic series (by James Sutter, co-creator of the Pathfinder campaign setting and Managing Editor of Pathfinder fiction). |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 04 Jan 2015 : 15:53:40
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
Markustay,
Enlighten me.... Kingmaker Lore???
NM, the googles found it. |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 04 Jan 2015 : 15:52:15
Markustay,
Enlighten me.... Kingmaker Lore??? |
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