| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Demzer |
Posted - 29 Oct 2013 : 11:38:43
If you are not up to date (well, to the end of 3e so up to 5 years ago roughly) about the doings of Halaster Blackcloak and Khelben "Blackstaff" Arunsun, some of the followin is spoiler material so, stop right there!
Have you stopped yet? Well let's just say that this last Forging the Realms column just lighted up the all consuming hunger for more knowledge and lore that characterized the best moments of my discovery of the Realms.
Why do i say that? Have you stopped? Well last chance to stop, meanwhile let me say that .... oh s**t its the COVENANT!!! YES! GIMME MORE OF THE COVENANT!! PLEASE!!!
Ahem ... let's articulate that a bit better: in this column alone, He of the Greenwood casually throws around references to:
- "Ioulaum and his ilk", they may very well still be around and pursuing their own agendas steering the Realms (as of 1400 something) judging by Elminster's comment on the War Wizard's theory;
- "one or more of these hidden "mighty mortals" is behind the long passage of years between large and devastating orc hordes sweeping down out of the North" ... the one and only COVENANT!!!!!eleven!!1!!
- As of the writing of this article, both Khelben and Halaster are "presumed dead" ... and we all know what that can mean.
Other Forging columns were interesting but this one has me craving for more and cursing silently for all this teasing.
Anyway, apologies if this seems only useless spam on this forums but i had to get the joy out and share the feeling with someone.
Note: link to the article here http://forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?whichpage=7&TOPIC_ID=16941#435947 |
| 30 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| Markustay |
Posted - 02 Nov 2013 : 12:43:54
I knew that Stump Bog was up to no good!
Look at it, just sitting there... plotting....
______________________________________________________________________________________
This thread just gave me another idea/twist for 5e:
Bring Khelben back, but place his spirit inside the body of a cute, 15 year old girl. That ought to drive him completely nuts (because everyone will simply 'dismiss him', which is something no-one should EVER do to Khelen). He'd have to re-learn magic with his new body - his knowledge would be intact, but he'd still have to practice somatic and verbal components.
A young girl with a 'grumpy old man' attitude - that would be pretty funny. Elminster would have a field day with that (and perhaps Khelben should avoid El, considering his tastes lean in that direction).  |
| The Sage |
Posted - 02 Nov 2013 : 03:18:21
quote:
Originally posted by Steven Schend
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
... but Khelben is presumed dead? Now THAT is interesting indeed. 
Do remember that there was some intent toward keeping the news of Khelben's death a secret. So his presumed death could be a reflection of that.
Remember, too, that Tsarra had assumed the guise of the Khelben "Blackstaff" Arunsun. This means that right after the events of Blackstaff, she was a Lord of Waterdeep, head of the Moonstars and mage teacher at Blackstaff Tower. We really don't know how or when this changed, exactly, nor who knew and who didn't.
Actually, the clue/note on when Tsarra's ruse was unveiled was in BLACKSTAFF TOWER, the excerpt atop Chapter 19. The date has to do with Maliantor's book, not the date at which her illusions failed and she was revealed to NOT be Khelben. She was revealed in 1396, then was the Blackstaff until she died in 1399 with many of the other Moonstars at the Stump Bog.
Nuts! I forgot what was revealed in Blackstaff Tower.
Disregard my earlier ramblings, Markus. 
...
On the positive side of things, though, this proves I'll need to schedule an upcoming re-read of both Steven's Realms novels sometime in the foreseeable future. "To-Do List" pending, of course.  |
| Steven Schend |
Posted - 01 Nov 2013 : 18:40:03
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
... but Khelben is presumed dead? Now THAT is interesting indeed.
Do remember that there was some intent toward keeping the news of Khelben's death a secret. So his presumed death could be a reflection of that.
Remember, too, that Tsarra had assumed the guise of the Khelben "Blackstaff" Arunsun. This means that right after the events of Blackstaff, she was a Lord of Waterdeep, head of the Moonstars and mage teacher at Blackstaff Tower. We really don't know how or when this changed, exactly, nor who knew and who didn't.
Actually, the clue/note on when Tsarra's ruse was unveiled was in BLACKSTAFF TOWER, the excerpt atop Chapter 19. The date has to do with Maliantor's book, not the date at which her illusions failed and she was revealed to NOT be Khelben. She was revealed in 1396, then was the Blackstaff until she died in 1399 with many of the other Moonstars at the Stump Bog. |
| Gary Dallison |
Posted - 01 Nov 2013 : 14:13:05
I could post something semi sarcastic/semi serious here but it would just incite an edition flamewar, so i wont. It is very tempting though  |
| Arcanus |
Posted - 01 Nov 2013 : 13:48:20
Well by your reckoning all rpg is the same plot really. Do not forget that this is a rather niche market. Those that love these worlds rarely tire of them completely. This is not tv. Fans are mostly in it for the long run. No end needed.
As a side point i did ask ed if had envisioned an end to the realms. His reply was yes and he knew how. |
| Markustay |
Posted - 31 Oct 2013 : 21:01:21
I don't know...
'Back in the day' TV series just went on and on and on, until folks lost interest and stopped watching, and then the series just got canceled (zero closure there).
Nowadays, the people who write good television plan a beginning, a middle, and an end. The series has a predestined finish, and viewers are far less likely to get bored by a never ending cycle of the same plot. I think this is a sign that our tastes for such things have 'matured'.
So back in the 70's, I would have had a hard time thinking anything should end, but now, I think a setting with a pre-programmed timeline isn't such a bad thing. We get closure - something sorely missed at the end of 3e.
As for novels, I never read the last books of WoT or SoT - I grew too bored with both to be bothered. I think I'll just stick to trilogies from now on - thats the perfect amount, IMO. For much the same reason, I have no interest in reading any FR novels again. They're not even about anything I care about anymore. |
| Arcanus |
Posted - 31 Oct 2013 : 18:55:24
Well I am happy with the timeline moving forward and being able to play or read in the past. I don't see it as a major issue tbh.
Does there have to be an end to the Realms? |
| Markustay |
Posted - 31 Oct 2013 : 13:54:54
You mean sales would stagnate, right? {smirk}
Because we can run a game set in any era, right out of the OGB.
We are coming full-circle back to what I perceive as the main problem with the Forgotten Realms: A novel series must move constantly forward or else it stagnates. An RPG setting should remain fairly static, or else they can never 'finish' it (and we get an endless number of books on the exact same regions, over and over again).
FR can never be 'finished'. Golarion, on the other hand, can be, because very little changes, and the timeline barely moves. Thats much more useful for DMs. By the time they detail the entire planet, fans will be ready for another setting (which may not be for another 20 years!) Eberron went this route - its why I can appreciate it. Its a complete setting, something that our poor FR can never be.
I truly believe you CAN'T have it both ways. I am looking forward to seeing how 5e handles this problem. |
| Arcanus |
Posted - 31 Oct 2013 : 13:46:43
Oh there has to be more new people brought to the realms else it would stagnate. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 31 Oct 2013 : 13:00:05
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
@Wooly - lol, you think yoou limited your list by NOT including Chosen? Most of the ones I suspect will return will be Chosen, or other sorts of 'agants' of gods.
In FR, by not counting such folk, thats like saying "a dozen people on Earth, not counting any humans". Most of the important characters ARE associated with 'the gods' in some way (even Drizzt).
Actually, yes, I do think that I limited my list that way. The issue with returning characters is that many of the named NPCs of the Realms are humans, and thus subject to a shorter lifespan -- so they'd not be around more than 100 years later, in the 5E era. Chosen and undead (and non-humans) are an obvious exception to this list, since 100 years isn't all that long to most of them, and most of them had already been around for centuries.
So my statement is that I expect to see only a dozen or so regular humans who somehow remain after the timejump. I don't expect to see many people who aren't already subject to extended lifespans somehow still around. There have been exceptions already, yes, and I'm sure there will be some more -- but I remain convinced that we're going to see a lot more new characters, and that the majority of the non-enhanced humans from before the 3E era are long gone.
There are only so many ways that a normal human can get around a hundred year timejump, and a fair number of those methods have already been used. |
| Markustay |
Posted - 31 Oct 2013 : 12:36:48
I see it more as a compromise - we are basically getting the 1e/2e era shoe-horned into the 4e/5e timeframe.
@Wooly - lol, you think you limited your list by NOT including Chosen? Most of the ones I suspect will return will be Chosen, or other sorts of 'agents' of gods. Thats still a pretty big list.
In FR, by not counting such folk, thats like saying "a dozen people on Earth, not counting any humans". Most of the important characters ARE associated with 'the gods' in some way (even Drizzt). |
| Gary Dallison |
Posted - 31 Oct 2013 : 09:25:05
From reading some of the 4th edition books they have essentially kept many of the minor NPC's already, they are just given different names and it is stated that they are their great great grand children.
The bigger players (like Randal Morn and leaders of towns, counties, countries etc) may be gone, but joe bloggs who owned such and such an inn in Suzail is now Jim bloggs with exactly the same description.
And this may well be the saving grace of the new edition. Whereever they have Jim Bloggs i will just turn him back into Joe Bloggs for my campaign. And if his inn burns down, as long as it isnt due to something daft like the aboleth sovereignty turn up and destroy it for an unfathomable reason and then disappear before anyone can stop them - or pieces of a different planet land on it, then i will have that noted as a future event for when play continues past the 1375 timeline.
So ignoring the spellplague, i still do have some names of future children of the kings, dukes, mayors, etc and a brief bit about their actions which gives insight into their personality.
It means the 5e stuff may well be more useful to me than 3e was because lots of the 3e stuff was just advancing the timeline maybe one to three years down the line and most things stayed the same. Now i have hundreds of years of events which, ignoring the more ridiculous events, could be quite helpful to a long running campaign. |
| Arcanus |
Posted - 31 Oct 2013 : 09:10:32
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Arcanus
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I, personally, will go on record as saying I don't expect to see more than a dozen or so NPCs from 3E or before who suddenly pop back up in 5E. This is of course disregarding the semi-immortal ones like Chosen or undead -- I refer specifically to human mortals who died in 3E or before, or who would have only normal lifespans.
People want to accuse WotC of backpedaling -- I don't see it. Backpedaling would be getting rid of the post-3E era altogether. They have already said that prior canon will remain, and that the timeline will continue to move forward from the 4E era. Just because they are undoing some things and allowing a couple of their most popular authors to keep their characters does not mean that 5E is going to be 3E, round 2.
They are trying to put the realms back to what people loved and are making major changes to make it so.
They have already stated time and again that 4e wasn't popular. Bob and Ed's 'vision' is to get the old realms back.
That is backpeddling.
And yet, they are still keeping the Spellplague, all of the 4E lore remains valid, and the timejump will remain. So if they are making a few concessions but keeping a lot of what people said they didn't like, is that really backpedaling?
If WotC truly wanted to bring the old Realms back and was backpedaling to do it, then they would wave 4E out of existence and continue from the end of 3E -- or maybe even reset back to the OGB.
And either way, that still does not address your assertion that "Many of the most popular characters will be back".
They are obviously a business first and want to please as many as they can, this includes 4e fans. So it makes no odds that they are keeping prior lore. They are returning the realms to a pre spellplague state as much as they can whilst not changing the past. I don't blame them for doing this, it's the only way to keep the old and the new guard happy. Using Ao to make the big change is a drastic move to do it as quickly as possible.
They know they were very wrong with 4e so 5e is an attempt to put things right.
Backpeddling.
My statement that of many of the most characters will be back was deliberately ambiguous. Obviously I do not have exact details about the who and the when. Many is a relative term anyway. Each of us would see 'many' as a different amount. Don't forget that if you add up say, each of the big authors main Npc's then the total won't be huge. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 31 Oct 2013 : 03:41:26
quote:
Originally posted by Arcanus
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I, personally, will go on record as saying I don't expect to see more than a dozen or so NPCs from 3E or before who suddenly pop back up in 5E. This is of course disregarding the semi-immortal ones like Chosen or undead -- I refer specifically to human mortals who died in 3E or before, or who would have only normal lifespans.
People want to accuse WotC of backpedaling -- I don't see it. Backpedaling would be getting rid of the post-3E era altogether. They have already said that prior canon will remain, and that the timeline will continue to move forward from the 4E era. Just because they are undoing some things and allowing a couple of their most popular authors to keep their characters does not mean that 5E is going to be 3E, round 2.
They are trying to put the realms back to what people loved and are making major changes to make it so.
They have already stated time and again that 4e wasn't popular. Bob and Ed's 'vision' is to get the old realms back.
That is backpeddling.
And yet, they are still keeping the Spellplague, all of the 4E lore remains valid, and the timejump will remain. So if they are making a few concessions but keeping a lot of what people said they didn't like, is that really backpedaling?
If WotC truly wanted to bring the old Realms back and was backpedaling to do it, then they would wave 4E out of existence and continue from the end of 3E -- or maybe even reset back to the OGB.
And either way, that still does not address your assertion that "Many of the most popular characters will be back". |
| Arcanus |
Posted - 30 Oct 2013 : 23:46:25
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I, personally, will go on record as saying I don't expect to see more than a dozen or so NPCs from 3E or before who suddenly pop back up in 5E. This is of course disregarding the semi-immortal ones like Chosen or undead -- I refer specifically to human mortals who died in 3E or before, or who would have only normal lifespans.
People want to accuse WotC of backpedaling -- I don't see it. Backpedaling would be getting rid of the post-3E era altogether. They have already said that prior canon will remain, and that the timeline will continue to move forward from the 4E era. Just because they are undoing some things and allowing a couple of their most popular authors to keep their characters does not mean that 5E is going to be 3E, round 2.
They are trying to put the realms back to what people loved and are making major changes to make it so.
They have already stated time and again that 4e wasn't popular. Bob and Ed's 'vision' is to get the old realms back.
That is backpeddling.
|
| sleyvas |
Posted - 30 Oct 2013 : 22:57:10
Personally, I hate to say it, but the NPC's that lack the ability to extend their life, I'd rather see disappear. Make books based in the earlier years to showcase them. Lord knows there's enough of us that wouldn't give a damn if a Khelben story was in the 1400's or the 1200's... we'd just want to see Khelben. That being said, I'd like to see certain Zulkirs return, even if they've changed roles (Mythrell'aa and Lauzoril in particular... the others were kind of cardboard representations of their schools). |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 30 Oct 2013 : 22:37:17
I, personally, will go on record as saying I don't expect to see more than a dozen or so NPCs from 3E or before who suddenly pop back up in 5E. This is of course disregarding the semi-immortal ones like Chosen or undead -- I refer specifically to human mortals who died in 3E or before, or who would have only normal lifespans.
People want to accuse WotC of backpedaling -- I don't see it. Backpedaling would be getting rid of the post-3E era altogether. They have already said that prior canon will remain, and that the timeline will continue to move forward from the 4E era. Just because they are undoing some things and allowing a couple of their most popular authors to keep their characters does not mean that 5E is going to be 3E, round 2. |
| Markustay |
Posted - 30 Oct 2013 : 21:51:36
I know of another that will be back.
Anyhow, I'm pretty sure Arcanus has the right of it - the gods will not be the only ones getting the "OH! Look who's back!" treatment. Not everyone, but some of the important folk of 1e/2e/3e will return, of that I'm fairly certain. I don't know if they are going to use a sweeping, across the board explanation ("by resetting the pantheon, we had to reset those mortal events that lead-up to the changes, etc"), or if they will continue with the one (convenient) deux ex machina at-a-time treatment. Probably a smattering of both.
So long as its not too silly, I will be happy to see a lot of them back. There were just too many unfinished stories there. |
| Arcanus |
Posted - 30 Oct 2013 : 20:40:10
I am happy. I only said I was amused. |
| Demzer |
Posted - 30 Oct 2013 : 20:36:15
Can't we just be happy about the teaser? And about news and rumors concerning interesting characters of the past that were left out from 4e for one reason or another? |
| Arcanus |
Posted - 30 Oct 2013 : 18:31:06
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Arcanus
(Sigh) Do I really need to? I could point to the shards of halasters soul etc but I think we all know that some of the most beloved characters will be coming back. Ed already smuggled Mirt and Vangy back into the Realms, Bob has done the same with the companions. There, it has already begun.
How's that for precious proof?
Insufficient. A handful of examples of people sidestepping the timejump or returning from death does not mean that every single dead NPC will come back -- especially those who died before the Spellplague ever happened.
Ao restoring deities is one matter. Bringing back all the NPCs would go way beyond the bounds of believability... It'd be easier to simply roll back the clock, which WotC has already said they will not do.
So yeah, I need more proof that someone will return. Saying that people are uncertain about a character's death is far from conclusive proof that character will be back.
For gods sake it has happened already. 6 times!!
I never said ALL would be back did I?
It's just part of the backpeddling WOTC has had to do.
I shall put my neck on the line and say that Khelben will be back in some way. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 30 Oct 2013 : 18:09:35
quote:
Originally posted by Arcanus
(Sigh) Do I really need to? I could point to the shards of halasters soul etc but I think we all know that some of the most beloved characters will be coming back. Ed already smuggled Mirt and Vangy back into the Realms, Bob has done the same with the companions. There, it has already begun.
How's that for precious proof?
Insufficient. A handful of examples of people sidestepping the timejump or returning from death does not mean that every single dead NPC will come back -- especially those who died before the Spellplague ever happened.
Ao restoring deities is one matter. Bringing back all the NPCs would go way beyond the bounds of believability... It'd be easier to simply roll back the clock, which WotC has already said they will not do.
So yeah, I need more proof that someone will return. Saying that people are uncertain about a character's death is far from conclusive proof that character will be back. |
| Gary Dallison |
Posted - 30 Oct 2013 : 16:20:10
They will give in eventually and in true Dallas style pretend it was all a dream and 4e never happened. They are half way there anyway, the weave is back, the gods are back, abeir is gone, and lots of the events are being undone, all they need to do now is hit the rewind button and i will be happy. |
| Arcanus |
Posted - 30 Oct 2013 : 16:11:23
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Arcanus
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Arcanus
I find it amusing to see the way they are bringing back old characters that they shouldn't have killed off anyway.
We don't know that anyone is coming back. Just that in the Realms, some don't think the characters are really dead -- or that they won't come back.
Oh come on. Many of the most popular characters will be back. Same as the gods are returning. Its just that with the individuals, more elaborate ways are needed to explain their return.
WotC has said that gods will be returning. I do not know of any such statements concerning deceased characters. Can you provide a reference to where WotC said that?
(Sigh) Do I really need to? I could point to the shards of halasters soul etc but I think we all know that some of the most beloved characters will be coming back. Ed already smuggled Mirt and Vangy back into the Realms, Bob has done the same with the companions. There, it has already begun.
How's that for precious proof? |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 30 Oct 2013 : 15:40:30
quote:
Originally posted by Arcanus
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Arcanus
I find it amusing to see the way they are bringing back old characters that they shouldn't have killed off anyway.
We don't know that anyone is coming back. Just that in the Realms, some don't think the characters are really dead -- or that they won't come back.
Oh come on. Many of the most popular characters will be back. Same as the gods are returning. Its just that with the individuals, more elaborate ways are needed to explain their return.
WotC has said that gods will be returning. I do not know of any such statements concerning deceased characters. Can you provide a reference to where WotC said that? |
| Arcanus |
Posted - 30 Oct 2013 : 14:06:22
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Arcanus
I find it amusing to see the way they are bringing back old characters that they shouldn't have killed off anyway.
We don't know that anyone is coming back. Just that in the Realms, some don't think the characters are really dead -- or that they won't come back.
Oh come on. Many of the most popular characters will be back. Same as the gods are returning. Its just that with the individuals, more elaborate ways are needed to explain their return. |
| Arcanus |
Posted - 30 Oct 2013 : 13:10:22
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Arcanus
I find it amusing to see the way they are bringing back old characters that they shouldn't have killed off anyway.
We don't know that anyone is coming back. Just that in the Realms, some don't think the characters are really dead -- or that they won't come back.
Oh come on. Many of the most popular characters will be back. Same as the gods are returning. Its just that with the individuals, more elaborate ways are needed to explain their return. |
| The Sage |
Posted - 30 Oct 2013 : 02:38:19
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
... but Khelben is presumed dead? Now THAT is interesting indeed.
Do remember that there was some intent toward keeping the news of Khelben's death a secret. So his presumed death could be a reflection of that.
Remember, too, that Tsarra had assumed the guise of the Khelben "Blackstaff" Arunsun. This means that right after the events of Blackstaff, she was a Lord of Waterdeep, head of the Moonstars and mage teacher at Blackstaff Tower. We really don't know how or when this changed, exactly, nor who knew and who didn't. |
| Demzer |
Posted - 29 Oct 2013 : 21:27:20
quote:
Originally posted by Eilserus
Wasn't someone collecting Halaster's soul shards? Maybe that will be his way back. I'd imagine we haven't heard the last from Khelben either.
Here you go, from Mr. B. R. James (2nd post):
http://forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=18303
That same post explains why its kind of an "unofficial" piece of Realmslore, or something like that. |
| sfdragon |
Posted - 29 Oct 2013 : 21:03:59
Ioluam isnt dead, he's um undead.... and I'd love to know about the hero of ancient Netheril back when Netheril was good for something. |
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