| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| BlackAce |
Posted - 25 Oct 2013 : 06:29:26
We all know it's coming with the inevitability of Wile Coyote falling off a cliff, so what would you love to see now the city of splendours is a century and more older?
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| 30 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| Steven Schend |
Posted - 02 Dec 2013 : 19:54:36
quote:
Originally posted by Marco Volo
I would love to have something about Waterdeep : the Citadel of the Bloody Hand. Why ? Think about it : it is within Mount Waterdeep, connected with the sewers, Undermountain, the Castle and Harper's Hold. There's a LOT to write about such a dungeon, factions, intrigues etc... Not need to be a 100 pages hardbook, but some 30-40 pages even without an adventure in it, but a presentation of the organisations (The Guards, Harpers, monsters and the like), a map (I've been told it exists somewhere in Ed's/TSR's pile of papers) so it would be great for the DM and a benefit to Waterdeep's lore.
It could be "edition free" or for D&D5, I don't mind.
By the way, thanks Steven for the description of Harpers Bold in Dragon mag. Do you know why there wasn't a mini-map of the complex with the article ? Budget issue ?
I'm assuming that you're talking about the Harper Safehold here, right? I believe we discussed the map potential and it was nixed for three reasons:
1. space (no room to add a 1/4 page map without cutting several hundred words);
2. budget/time (I think I got the article done at the last second and the timing didn't allow a map to be done without extra cost); and
3. after reading the article, the editor didn't believe a visual map was necessary beyond the text descriptions.
I'm of the same mind--what you've got is enough to give you a glimmer of what it's like and each GM can make of it what their campaign needs, not necessarily what was limited to my head more than 15 years ago. 
As for what the Citadel of the Bloody Hand looks like or would be mapped as, I've asked Ed about it a few times and he's said that he does have a map somewheres but it's never seen the light of publication (or it's simply too similar to the tunnels and corridors of Castle Waterdeep, which have been mapped enough for folks to use and from which to extrapolate).
As always, hope this helps a little.
Steven |
| Marco Volo |
Posted - 27 Nov 2013 : 16:36:06
I would love to have something about Waterdeep : the Citadel of the Bloody Hand. Why ? Think about it : it is within Mount Waterdeep, connected with the sewers, Undermountain, the Castle and Harper's Hold. There's a LOT to write about such a dungeon, factions, intrigues etc... Not need to be a 100 pages hardbook, but some 30-40 pages even without an adventure in it, but a presentation of the organisations (The Guards, Harpers, monsters and the like), a map (I've been told it exists somewhere in Ed's/TSR's pile of papers) so it would be great for the DM and a benefit to Waterdeep's lore.
It could be "edition free" or for D&D5, I don't mind.
By the way, thanks Steven for the description of Harpers Bold in Dragon mag. Do you know why there wasn't a mini-map of the complex with the article ? Budget issue ? |
| Jeremy Grenemyer |
Posted - 27 Nov 2013 : 15:02:35
100% paper product. Something you can put on your bookshelf and smile at with pride or put in a storage box for magazine-sized books and keep forever. |
| Mournblade |
Posted - 27 Nov 2013 : 14:52:27
quote:
Originally posted by Jeremy Grenemyer
I don't want WotC to cover Waterdeep in another one and done sourcebook. I want them to over the city for the life of 5E.
What I want is a bi-weekly mini sourcebook of about 20 to 30 pages that focuses on one block in one Ward of Waterdeep, with a black and white cut away map of one or two buildings on that block and a removable overhead map showing the block and naming all the locations on it.
Each sourcebook moves to a different Ward of the city. Once all the Wards are covered, a special sourcebook is released that focuses on other aspects of the city.
Then the cycle repeats itself. Each removable map in the new cycle fits alongside of its predecessor in the same Ward.
That might be nice. Are you envisioning this to be Electronic only? I am still a tactile print guy, so I would want it to be print.
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| Tarlyn |
Posted - 24 Nov 2013 : 02:11:18
A hundred years have passed and all the human NPCs(including the immortal ones) in the city are dead. Last I read Waterdeeps' military fell apart and the its fleet burnt on the docks. A major thieve's guild has taken up residence. I don't have a clue who any of the masked lords are and I don't know anything about the movers and shakers in the city. The city seems like it could use a source book to bring back a few details. That being said, I would rather see the a source book on Silverymoon, but I would happily buy a new Waterdeep source book. Of course, all of that is contingent on the Sundering creating a 1480s era that I find worth researching. |
| SirUrza |
Posted - 30 Oct 2013 : 13:20:56
quote:
Originally posted by BlackAce
Hmmm I don't think Waterdeep has near enough scaffolding to be confused for New York! :P
Give the Sundering a chance will you. :P |
| BlackAce |
Posted - 29 Oct 2013 : 05:59:31
Hmmm I don't think Waterdeep has near enough scaffolding to be confused for New York! :P |
| Markustay |
Posted - 28 Oct 2013 : 19:14:40
I am on the same page with SirUrza - I didn't say I wouldn't want them to produce one at all, I merely stated I would not want them to keep producing the exact same regional books, when so much else is still left unfinished (all the way since the beginning!).
Here's the catch-22: how the hell do they know "what sells" when all they do is keep re-hashing the same old areas? It becomes a self-fulfilling prophesy.
Can I use Waterdeep material elsewhere? YES, and have. However, I can do this with most any company's sourcebooks and campaign world, so at that point, who needs WotC?
And BTW, I don't 'hate' Waterdeep - thats a strong word. I just see too much of my own NY in it, so I don't find it as interesting as most. In fact, my own 'super city' in my homebrew world is VERY loosely a cross between WD and Sharn... but a whole lot cooler 'cause its mine. 
They can produce 100 more WD books for all I care - just don't ignore everything else in the process. Anything outside of The Heartlands may as well not exist at this point. |
| Seravin |
Posted - 28 Oct 2013 : 18:33:03
quote:
Lastly, if I were approached to revisit Waterdeep, I'd love to do it as a Volo's Guide style book with multiple narrators, each of whom are showing you their own personal views on Waterdeep, what makes it special/important, what they remember, where they frequent, etc. Seeing the city from a craftsman's viewpoint, then a guard's, an apprentice wizard, a caravan owner, etc. THIS would be a way to liven up and take new looks at stuff, have reasons for seeing new areas, etc.
Okay even though FR Adventures is my favourite D&D product of all time, I would still be down with this.
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| The Arcanamach |
Posted - 28 Oct 2013 : 18:31:19
Mr. Schend, it's not so much that folks have a problem with updated material for Waterdeep, it's that SO MUCH of the Realms was, essentially, ignored under 3/4e...as opposed to previous eras where sourcebooks were created for most areas (the FR series books, for instance).
That said, I think your idea of how to approach a revisit of the city is GREAT. Multiple perspectives on the city would be an incredible way to go. |
| SirUrza |
Posted - 28 Oct 2013 : 18:02:40
Steven I absolutely LOVE FR Adventures and wish there were books like it for both 3e and 4e. We need more general books before specific books.
The 4e line up was down right pathetic IMHO and was squandered by creating source books of the Drizzt novels instead of source books for the setting.
With that in mind, I think I'm going to start another thread. :) |
| Steven Schend |
Posted - 28 Oct 2013 : 17:49:02
I'm a bit biased, I'll admit, but I can't distance myself from the City of Splendors, can I?
Are folks rightfully annoyed that Waterdeep's gotten so much ink while other cities languish undetailed? Then tell WotC that you want something more akin to FR Adventures or a sourcebook on more than one city. Can't say how well the idea will be received, as I've now been gone from TSR/WotC longer than I ever was with the company, and 90% of those with whom I worked are also gone.
That said, I'm curious as to why folks declare the material useless when 95% of what's put down for Waterdeep could easily be used in any city important to their campaign (with various exceptions being landmarks, sundry NPCs, etc.).
Lastly, if I were approached to revisit Waterdeep, I'd love to do it as a Volo's Guide style book with multiple narrators, each of whom are showing you their own personal views on Waterdeep, what makes it special/important, what they remember, where they frequent, etc. Seeing the city from a craftsman's viewpoint, then a guard's, an apprentice wizard, a caravan owner, etc. THIS would be a way to liven up and take new looks at stuff, have reasons for seeing new areas, etc.
But that's just my opinion and how I'd approach it, if wishes were fishes and all that....
Steven |
| SirUrza |
Posted - 28 Oct 2013 : 12:56:05
quote:
Originally posted by Kris the Grey
The Menzoberranzan source book was a nice example of era spanning city coverage. A Waterdeep book would need to be longer (obviously), but could be presented the same way.
Maybe I just need to give it a deeper read through but sometimes I feel like Menzo's 4e book is overhyped. |
| Kris the Grey |
Posted - 27 Oct 2013 : 22:00:00
The Menzoberranzan source book was a nice example of era spanning city coverage. A Waterdeep book would need to be longer (obviously), but could be presented the same way.
That said, I'm happy to get whatever update comes our way. You've got a 1E, 2E, and 3E Waterdeep book. 4E less so. A 5E book would be fine by me. Yes, the world is bigger than Waterdeep, but Waterdeep is the NYC/London of the Realms. It makes sense to detail it first. |
| SirUrza |
Posted - 27 Oct 2013 : 14:39:44
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Now its time for them to put their money where their mouth is - I want to see REAL "support for all eras", not some undated post-Spellplague material.
Indeed. My fear remains that whatever NEXT supplements we gets will be specifics-lite and I'll still need my stack of AD&D and 3E supplements for the nit and gritty. |
| BlackAce |
Posted - 27 Oct 2013 : 04:19:10
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I was disappointed when I read the original post in this thread... I was excited from the subject, because I thought a new Waterdeep sourcebook had been announced!
Sorry to disappoint, Wooley. But give it time....
In fact, what you and Mark are talking about is exactly the reason I started this thread. At least Wizards will hear what people think at a point where it may have some useful input. |
| Jeremy Grenemyer |
Posted - 27 Oct 2013 : 03:35:47
I prefer to think of the recent Baldur's Gate adventure/sourcebook as a good start.
Hopefully that city and Athkatla, Saerloon and Selgaunt all get more coverage in 5E, as Ed's "Eye on the Realms" columns have talked about the later three and wet my appetite for more. |
| Markustay |
Posted - 27 Oct 2013 : 01:26:02
Actually, I have been giving them a chance - I've been telling everyone to do just that for the past year+.
Now its time for them to put their money where their mouth is - I want to see REAL "support for all eras", not some undated post-Spellplague material.
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| Kentinal |
Posted - 27 Oct 2013 : 01:15:47
Yes indeed it will be interesting the concept of supporting all Editions.
As my tag in WotC Forum reads.
Plans, however are subject to change (or words to that effect)
Mostly had it because DDI clearly did not work out as initial plans and time lines were set out.
For now we need to see how close a plan announce is followed or changed.
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| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 26 Oct 2013 : 23:19:54
quote:
Originally posted by Demzer
I just want to point out one thing, then i'll bow out of this thread, apologies in advance if i result too abrasive.
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
If you're going to continuously hold WotC's past actions against them
Continuously?
We are talking about the first edition since the 4th, the wounds are still fresh, the memories are still vivid and part of the community has just now started to "get over it".
Ah, but that's the thing: some people are not trying to get over it, and insist on portraying everything imaginable in the most negative light possible. And when someone is doing that, they are not giving WotC a fair chance to try to do the right thing.
Why should WotC even try to reach out to someone who is determined to not give them a chance? |
| Demzer |
Posted - 26 Oct 2013 : 21:29:20
I just want to point out one thing, then i'll bow out of this thread, apologies in advance if i result too abrasive.
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
If you're going to continuously hold WotC's past actions against them
Continuously?
We are talking about the first edition since the 4th, the wounds are still fresh, the memories are still vivid and part of the community has just now started to "get over it".
You can bet whatever you want that a lot of people are watching closely the actions of WOTC and will pass harsh judgement on those same actions. This is not a threat, this should be one of the best motivations for WOTC's designers and authors.
By all means, give us more City of Splendors, Cormyr and Dales, but please, for the love of all that's Realms, give us more than a taste of everything else too. |
| The Arcanamach |
Posted - 26 Oct 2013 : 19:37:28
Getting a sourcebook on Waterdeep is a given, WotC is going to do it (it's just common sense). All I want is for Wizbro to expand on their activities to include areas that never/rarely see any face time. True, with a 100 year time jump everything will be relatively new...but it will all be relatively the same as well (we will just get new names and 100 years of history).
I have no problem with them doing this...just, please, give us new areas and expand the lore that's NDA. It can't be that hard and the money will come in if Wizbro does it right.
And, personally, I think the 'negativity' is well warranted given that a designer basically came it and all but shot down our hopes for truly new content (at least that's how it seemed to me). It's not 'holding the past against them' so much as going forward with eyes open given both past decisions AND the statement that sparked the negativity.
For the record, I'm still hopeful that Wizbro will come through this time. But, IMO, the only way they are going to 'do it right' is to listen to Ed very closely.
Cheers. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 26 Oct 2013 : 16:56:32
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
I am finding it harder and harder to post on this site. I find myself constantly erasing what I truly want to say and putting in some fairly neutral dribble.
As Matt James pointed-out, we will get what they think we want, based on prior sales, and not what we may truly want, because they have NO IDEA what that is.
So yeah, more Drizzt, Waterdeep, etc... Can't wait to see what thousand-year old Cattie Brie looks like in a few more editions.
They've also been making more of an effort to listen to the fanbase, of late. I'll be the first to decry some of WotC's past actions, but I'm also going to point out that those actions were in the past.
If you're going to continuously hold WotC's past actions against them and not give them a chance to prove themselves going forward, then why bother even looking at new stuff? You're already prejudiced against it -- you're no different than the Realms-haters that WotC blew up the setting trying to cater to.
If you want to prove me wrong, then give WotC a fair chance to prove your pessimism wrong. |
| silverwolfer |
Posted - 26 Oct 2013 : 16:08:51
screw the west coast... give me some east coast ... I want some info on kara-tur. I mean if wotc is about following the money, how do we not' have any info on the east, with how big a money maker that is for western customers. |
| Markustay |
Posted - 26 Oct 2013 : 15:13:54
I am finding it harder and harder to post on this site. I find myself constantly erasing what I truly want to say and putting in some fairly neutral dribble.
As Matt James pointed-out, we will get what they think we want, based on prior sales, and not what we may truly want, because they have NO IDEA what that is.
So yeah, more Drizzt, Waterdeep, etc... Can't wait to see what thousand-year old Cattie Brie looks like in a few more editions. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 26 Oct 2013 : 14:12:16
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
I'd have to agree with Lord Bane - we really need a detailed Moonsea regional book (something along the lines of MoM, but with more lore attached).
However, my first choice would go for a detailed Vilhon Reach sourcebook.. but we will never see one, because 5e is really 4e 2.0, and they won't ever cover areas they've already obliterated. 
A Bloodstone/Demon Lands book is also much-needed.
quote:
Originally posted by Matt James
WotC is going to publish what will afford them the greatest profit. It's not to suggest the product would be, by default, rubbish. I'm a fan of Drizzt, and despite some not liking the character, he sells very very well. They'll keep asking Bob to write those novel as long as the character is popular.
Waterdeep is no different. WotC has absolutely no incentive to put a lot of time, effort, and money into developing a lesser known city that has not been established as being popular.
Accents, mine.
So, IYO, we will continue to see rehashed regions that have already been covered, rather then anything new, because they don't want to take any risks (like 4e was)?
But with a century or more of change, nothing will really be a rehash -- every single area is going to have new NPCs, new businesses/establishments, new rulers, etc. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 26 Oct 2013 : 14:10:18
I was disappointed when I read the original post in this thread... I was excited from the subject, because I thought a new Waterdeep sourcebook had been announced! |
| Markustay |
Posted - 26 Oct 2013 : 13:30:36
I'd have to agree with Lord Bane - we really need a detailed Moonsea regional book (something along the lines of MoM, but with more lore attached).
However, my first choice would go for a detailed Vilhon Reach sourcebook.. but we will never see one, because 5e is really 4e 2.0, and they won't ever cover areas they've already obliterated.
A Bloodstone/Demon Lands book is also much-needed.
quote:
Originally posted by Matt James
WotC is going to publish what will afford them the greatest profit. It's not to suggest the product would be, by default, rubbish. I'm a fan of Drizzt, and despite some not liking the character, he sells very very well. They'll keep asking Bob to write those novel as long as the character is popular.
Waterdeep is no different. WotC has absolutely no incentive to put a lot of time, effort, and money into developing a lesser known city that has not been established as being popular.
Accents, mine.
So, IYO, we will continue to see rehashed regions that have already been covered, rather then anything new, because they don't want to take any risks (like 4e was)?
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| Lord Bane |
Posted - 26 Oct 2013 : 10:39:50
Gah, not something Cormyr or Icenwind Dale, please, it gets so much stagetime in novels.
IŽd advocate Zhentil Keep, rebuilt and a proper view on the Moonsea. |
| BlackAce |
Posted - 26 Oct 2013 : 06:53:11
Personally I'm really hoping for something like FR Adventures. The gazetteer style entries were great and I'd love to see a similar product detailing the big changes that have happened. |
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