| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Shadowlord |
Posted - 31 Jan 2004 : 22:38:12
I was wondering if there was more info for Jalynfein, The Spider Mage, a Master of Sorcere in Menzoberranzan, as the only reference I can find is in Realms of the Underdark Anthologies, in the Zaknafein Story. I think I can recall his stats in Dragon Magazine, but I can't remember which issue. I have heard from my "sources" that Jalynfein is more powerful than Lord Dyrr, or Gromph! |
| 30 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| Alystra Illianniis |
Posted - 29 Jun 2014 : 04:26:33
Hmm, I could have sworn I'd read that he said something to that effect. I need to read all my Menzo books again- my memory has gotten a bit rusty of late, but then I've been mostly reading my TMNT comics and working on my fics lately, rather than any FR materials. Although (happy dance!!!) my local library just started an RPG game twice a month, using Pathfinder rules. First game was fun, even though we were using pre-gen PC's for all the newbies to learn on. So at least I'll be getting to play again!! |
| BEAST |
Posted - 29 Jun 2014 : 03:00:53
quote:
Originally posted by Alystra Illianniis
Actually, I believe Jalenfain WAS a Vhaeraunite, as per the story about Zaknafein in Realms of the Underdark. I'd have to look it up, but I'm pretty sure it was mentioned.
"The Fires of Narbondel" isn't explicit about what the Spider Mage is for--only about what he is against: Lolth and her priestesses.
The fact that Jalynfein intimates that he shares Zak's code of honor doesn't seem to match up with my admittedly limited understanding of Vhaerun's personality, though.
quote:
I think a better question would be whom did Zak himself serve? He obviously didn't end up in either of their domains when he died, as Drizzt learned. So where DID he end up? Whose realm did he pass on to? THAT is one question I'd love to see answered some day.
Mum's the word, from Bob.
All we know is that Zak's ghost said that he was at peace, and he promised his son that they would meet again. |
| Alystra Illianniis |
Posted - 29 Jun 2014 : 00:02:40
Thanks for the clarifying, Wooly, but as Masked Mage pointed out, his prime alleagience was to the Sorcere, although I'm inclined to think that he wouldn't be particularly AGAINST the Masked Lord, or might at least be sympathetic to their cause. As for the origin of the bowl itself, we may never really know, but I'm inclined to think it was HIS. Just the fact that he had it and knew what it signified seems to imply that he was willing to risk someone else (meaning Shakti) seeing it. That tells me he may have had OTHER "gifts" from Vhaeraun, as well. (Like the intel he had on Shakti herself, perhaps- just as she had received info from the god on Liriel, and later, when he cured her myopia.)
Actually, I believe Jalenfain WAS a Vhaeraunite, as per the story about Zaknafein in Realms of the Underdark. I'd have to look it up, but I'm pretty sure it was mentioned. I think a better question would be whom did Zak himself serve? He obviously didn't end up in either of their domains when he died, as Drizzt learned. So where DID he end up? Whose realm did he pass on to? THAT is one question I'd love to see answered some day. |
| The Masked Mage |
Posted - 26 Jun 2014 : 03:18:01
I think you guys are missing the most obvious possibility. As Archmage of Menzo, Gromph is also the leader of the Masters of Sorcere. Many of these have forsaken their ties to their families (an the city's priestesses). Undoubtedly there have been numerous masters who were secret servants of Vhaeaun. When these masters died their possessions would become the property of the Masters of Sorcere, so any of them, including the Archmage could have one without any fealty to the god.
That said, I definitely think there are only two ways to read the passages from above. Either 1) Shakti is reading too much into things - very likely in my mind; or 2) the writer wanted to make Gromph a Vhaeraunite to show that anyone could be one.
For my money, other books that feature Gromph - especially during Lolth's silence - would have made more of it. Indeed, he actively fights against Vhaeruanites on occasion, choosing instead to ally with the city's high priestesses. All this despite the fact that in his original description in the boxed set, he hates the matron mothers with a passion.
Now, back to the original topic - the spider mage. He is devoutly opposed to Lolth and the evils done in her name in Menzo, but I think once can assume he would be equally opposed to Vhaeraun, given their similarities. |
| Lilianviaten |
Posted - 24 Jun 2014 : 05:21:18
This conversation has been interesting to follow. I've always been a Gromph fan, and I've never thought he followed the Masked Lord. Gromph doesn't strike me as the type to devote himself to any cause besides furthering his own survival. An Artemis Entreri, if you will (though Gromph would surely resent the comparison). |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 24 Jun 2014 : 05:00:18
I have stated, repeatedly, that I do think Gromph follows Vhaeraun.
My entire objection here has been to the assertion that since he summoned an apparently identical scrying bowl, it definitively proves his loyalty to Vhaeraun.
It is strongly implied, yes, on that I will agree. I just need more than "he has a bowl, therefore he follows Vhaeraun." |
| Alystra Illianniis |
Posted - 24 Jun 2014 : 04:05:58
And as I've said repeatedly, I'M not saying he couldn't, either- but the evidence FROM THE BOOKS seems to indicate that he got it the same way she did. It never comes right out and blatantly admits it, but the evidence is right there.
The problem is that that scene is from HER perspective, and we really don't get to see his thoughts, because the story is more about her, and his appearance is brief and seen through Shakti's eyes, so we get her thoughts, and not much else. But it's clear enough from what we have that he was intended to be viewed as a faithful of Vhaeraun. Maybe he's been painted otherwise in the WotSQ books (though I don't recall anything being mentioned in those about it) but at least in the Liriel books, what we see of him indicates that he DOES follow the Masked Lord. Why is that so hard to understand or believe? Elaine wrote that description in for a reason, and I'm inclined to think it was to show his leanings. He more or less even comes out and says as much! In a round-about way, of course. Also, while I can't recall where, I believe it has been stated that he never took the test of loyalty, much like Lireil's teacher Karza'Kzad. He was leaning toward joining, until his disasterous spell-battle with Nysstire.
Gromph also mentions that his reasons for wanting Liriel back alive during his conversation with Shakti is that he wants her loyalty to be to him and to wizardry over the priesthood of Lolth- which is a pretty interesting statement in itself. It shows that he has some interest in directing the priesthood in general, or perhaps steering House Baenre specifically. His motives are pretty suspect considering whom he's talking to, and what he has revealed to her. If he wasn't testing the waters with her regarding the direction of the city's future, what else was he doing? It is possible he had purely personal motives, but given the circumstances and the topic of discussion at the time, it seems more likely he was attempting to feel her out as an ally and see which way she really leaned.
Someone also mentioned that he wasn't oppressed or outcast, or whatever, as his followers often are, but I disagree. As a MALE drow, and especially one in such a position of responsibility that virtually ensures that he can't leave the city or even pursue his own agendas personally, but has to act through proxies (because as archmage, he has to keep Narbondel going) he most certainly IS oppressed, if subtlely. Even HIS position has less respect and power than even a common-born priestess. That has to rankle with him, and would be a good enough reason for him to switch loyalties to the god of drow males.... |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 23 Jun 2014 : 05:17:17
quote:
Originally posted by Alystra Illianniis
Sheesh, you completely missed the point. Wooly asked for some evidence, so I have been going through the books to find relevant passages. So far, everything I've found supports my position, and that was all just in the FIRST BOOK.
I've yet to see anything that convinces me there is no other reasonable explanation, not the least of which is Gromph simply playing Shakti in order to manipulate her.
I should like to say I'm not trying to be difficult or anything, I'm just not seeing anything that definitively states there is no other way Gromph could have gotten that bowl, and that he felt obligated to reveal his secrets to someone else.
Gromph being a follower of Vhaeraun is the simplest explanation, but I disagree that it is the only reasonable explanation. |
| Alystra Illianniis |
Posted - 22 Jun 2014 : 23:29:06
Sheesh, you completely missed the point. Wooly asked for some evidence, so I have been going through the books to find relevant passages. So far, everything I've found supports my position, and that was all just in the FIRST BOOK. And I never said he COULDN'T get one from elsewhere, just that it was VERY unlikely. Also, I never said they ALL come from Vaerhaun himself, but given that Shakti got hers DIRECTLY from him as a gift, the idea that they are made outside of his faith seems utterly ludicrous at this point. These ARE holy items, after all. Gromph COULD get one from elsewhere, but given that he CLEARLY knows what it is and what it means, why WOULD he, unless he was actually a follower already? That is a very damning piece of evidence to have in one's home! And he surely knows that.
Which brings me back to the point of Shakti being allowed to see it. She converted after searching through Liriel's room and finding books of human lore, along with Lireil's own notes on the Windwalker. She meets with Nisstyre(sp?), and reveals that she knows he's a heretic. Then he invites her to become a spy for them- a traitor priestess- for the promise of greater power than she has under Lolth. Then Vaerhaun himself begins offering her gifts and power, and it just goes from there. The fact that Gromph apparently not only KNEW she had converted (something not even any of the high priestesses knew!!) but showed her a bowl he kept in his possession, points to his gaining that knowledge from a HIGHER source. He's a powerful wizard, yes, but he has far better things to do than scry on minor priestesses whose only real claim to importance was finding out Liriel's secret of the Windwalker- which no one outside of the High Council knew, anyway. Gromph was barred from that meeting by magic, and couldn't even scry on it. He had no way to know her role in that meeting, where Lolth called for a truce between the Houses, and Shakti accused Liriel of heresy and keeping a powerful amulet for herself that should belong to the Matrons. Never mind that none of them would have been able to use it.
He meets with Triel after the Council meets, but Shakti's name is never brought up, nor anything about her role in the affair. He DOES speak to her later(in Tangled Webs), but apparently the only subject under discussion was her skill as a manager. Yet in the second book he literally has Shakti yanked out of her own bedchamber through a portal for the meeting where he shows her his bowl- and promptly tells her that he knows she had been poking around the Elemental Water plane- which NO ONE ELSE KNEW! This is not hard to figure out. Even the description of it- "It grew rapidly until it was IDENTICAL IN EVERY RESPECT to the scrying bowl GIVEN TO SHAKTI BY THE DROW GOD Vhaeraun." (my emphasis). That description was there for a reason.
The book goes on to show Shakti's thoughts on this. "Shakti's mind reeled as she tried to take in the implications of Gromph Baenre's words. How could he know so much? And more importantly, what did he plan to do with this knowledge?" He also says "I am sure that you, of all people, can understand the importance of one who has a foot firmly in two camps." He goes on to discuss how he had always known Liriel would become a priestess, but that he wanted her to consider herself a wizard FIRST, for his own purposes. He also tells her: "If you require more, I will know. Kindly do not approach me directly. That might be...inconvenient." It's not an admission, but the very NEXT passage goes on to expleain. "Shakti could well imagine why. She would never accuse the archmage of Menzoberranzan of consorting with Vhaeraun, but what other explanation could there be? Where else could Gromph have acquired that scrying bowl? OR HAVE LEARNED SO MUCH ABOUT HER PLANS?(my emphasis) Or have gotten past her GOD_GIVEN WARDS on her bedchamber?(again, my emphasis) Yes, she had a very good idea why Gromph Baenre had no wish to be seen in the presence of his sister's TRAITOR-PRIESTESS. (my emphasis again) He didn't come right out and say it, but he didn't need to. In typical drow fashion, he imparted more than what he actually said.
|
| TBeholder |
Posted - 22 Jun 2014 : 04:18:20
quote:
Originally posted by Alystra Illianniis
All this is true to a point, but as I stated earlier, it was mentioned IN THE BOOK that his was not only identical, but that she herself had received hers as part of HER CONVERSION. That was why she recognized it, AND its significance, in the first place!
You typed many an exclamation point so far, but still didn't establish an unambiguous causal link between this significance and anything else. Other than "Gromph knew of this significance and let her see it on purpose", which is also quite obvious but has no unambiguous causal link to anything.
quote:
It's also a holy item in that faith, as mentioned before, which I doubt anyone else is going to duplicate randomly.
Beside any point involved.
Someone somewhere somewhen duplicated it... on purpose. This proves exactly what?
quote:
And NO other source mentions anything like that PARTICULAR item anywhere but within his faith. Not even in the Encyclopedia Magicka!
How many times other sources (including Encyclopedia Magicka) did mention anything like that item within his faith?
Not that it mattered much, for lack of casual links.
quote:
It was never mentioned in any other novels not pertaining to the drow and Vaerhaun in particular, nor in any novels involving wizards either, AFAIK.
Even if so, what of it?
quote:
Had Liriel not been sent to the Academy, he would have never even had a reason to become aware of her at all!
Beside any point involved.
It already happened, so he did.
quote:
And while he may venerate Mystra, hich is both plausible and likely, it seems that he may also follow Vearhaun as well. Actually, there's no reason why he couldn't follow both.
My point exactly: "except for fanatics, clergy, or the oppressed [...] all intelligent beings in the Realms..." and so on (per answer linked below). When did Gromph ever seem to be any of these?
quote:
He could be a Chosen of the Masked Lord, even if he only follows him casually.
Well, yes. Or he could be six squirrels with a headdress, robe, and ring of levitation and illusions(c)  There's about as much proof for this version.
You continue to make wondrous claims and still fail to support a single brick in the whole air castle, except ones no one else bothers to poke anyway as obvious to the point of banality.
quote:
There is also a passage in Daughter of the Drow wherein Liriel tells her father of her meeting with the Eilistraeean drow on the surface. She tells him that they have magic and powers that the ones Below didn't, and part of it says: "...The expression on her father's face when she'd spoken of a rival deity made her wonder if it had been wise to involve him."
This makes it sounds as if Gromph already knows something about Eilistraee, and isn't happy about Liriel meeting with Her followers, though he never punishes her for it, not even says anything about it.
So, it's reasonable to assume that he knows the name of - and at least some very basic details about - a deity worshipped by more than 1/5 (!) of total drow population in his world. Which proves... exactly what? That Gromph isn't a fool and occasionally pays attention to what happens outside of the town too, at least if it can somehow affect him or what he considers his business (like perhaps some Vhaerunite merchants smuggling components and spellbooks) in any way? Well, yeah, Gromph is a high-up wizard in his city, it would be really weird if he was that ignorant.
quote:
The book also makes reference to Shakti's bowl as specifically a "ruby scrying bowl of Vaerhaun." It notes elsewhere that it is made of black ruby, which is the rarest kind. Gromph's bowl being so clearly described as identical makes it highly unlikely that he would have gotten it from anywhere but the source.
A haystack of non sequitur.
Besides the ludicrous idea that nothing can carve a bowl out of reddish stone other than Vhaerun's divine hand? Technically we still don't know whether Gromph in his long and no doubt interesting life actually did see such a bowl at all before Shakti got one. Much less owned - let alone owned rightfully. Though he could, of course. |
| Alystra Illianniis |
Posted - 22 Jun 2014 : 03:18:16
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
We have already given reasonable alternate reasons why he could have chosen to let her see it. And you have not yet given definitive proof that there are no dark red crystal scrying bowls, anywhere in the Realms, that are not owned by Vhaeraunites. Just because group A had a red one, and group B had a black one, it does not mean that no other groups could ever own bowls of the same color.
And why do you spy on a small fry? Because no major threat ever emerged that was not, at one time, a small fry. You watch for potential threats so you can deal with them before they become major threats. You don't wait for enemies to show themselves, you make sure you know as much about them as you possibly can, before they come at you.
All this is true to a point, but as I stated earlier, it was mentioned IN THE BOOK that his was not only identical, but that she herself had received hers as part of HER CONVERSION. That was why she recognized it, AND its significance, in the first place! It's also a holy item in that faith, as mentioned before, which I doubt anyone else is going to duplicate randomly. And NO other source mentions anything like that PARTICULAR item anywhere but within his faith. Not even in the Encyclopedia Magicka! It was never mentioned in any other novels not pertaining to the drow and Vaerhaun in particular, nor in any novels involving wizards either, AFAIK.
And Shakti as a threat? That's laughable. She was barely even the equal of Liriel even BEFORE she started her training at Arach-Tinilith, much LESS being a threat to Gromph himself. Take Liriel's pranks on her- she was the butt of SEVERAL joke by the young wizard-girl, simply because of her stuffy attitude, her jealousy, and her basic ineptitude in certain areas. As threats go, she was barely on anyone's radar- for good reason. She was far more concerned with her family's rothe-breeding operation than she was even with her priestess training, and wanted nothing more than to get back to it. At least until she ended up being "called" by the Masked Lord to gain more power- which she only did due to her feud with Liriel. Gromph was LEAGUES beyond her in power. Had Liriel not been sent to the Academy, he would have never even had a reason to become aware of her at all! She had little aptitude for wizardly magic, her priestess training had been interrupted and was therefore way behind others, and she was basically a glorified book-keeper for a family of farmers. Not really much of a threat by ANY standards.
And while he may venerate Mystra, hich is both plausible and likely, it seems that he may also follow Vearhaun as well. Actually, there's no reason why he couldn't follow both. In fact, I kind of wonder if his situation isn't somehow similar to Quilue's, or Liriel's. Both of them had two patron deities, so it's not a stretch to think he could, as well. In fact, that actually makes the most sense. Mystra over-all, but Vearhaun as a "personal" patron? Just as Quilue followed both Mystra and Eilistraee, and was a Chosen to both. He could be a Chosen of the Masked Lord, even if he only follows him casually. (As the most powerful male drow in Menzo, that might be just the sort of thing that Vaerhaun would do....)
Here's one quote to illustrate the difference in the Lolthite and Vaeraunite bowls. "....Liriel hurried toward her room to collect her scrolls and her scrying bowl. The latter was a standard-issue affair, round and black and perfectly smooth, and it would do until she was able to have another one made to her liking. There was a fine artisan down in the Manyfolk district who could carve a bowl from a single piece of obsidian and set it in a silver holder engraved with runes and scenes honoring Lolth."
There is also a passage in Daughter of the Drow wherein Liriel tells her father of her meeting with the Eilistraeean drow on the surface. She tells him that they have magic and powers that the ones Below didn't, and part of it says: "...The expression on her father's face when she'd spoken of a rival deity made her wonder if it had been wise to involve him."
This makes it sounds as if Gromph already knows something about Eilistraee, and isn't happy about Liriel meeting with Her followers, though he never punishes her for it, not even says anything about it.
The book also makes reference to Shakti's bowl as specifically a "ruby scrying bowl of Vaerhaun." It notes elsewhere that it is made of black ruby, which is the rarest kind. Gromph's bowl being so clearly described as identical makes it highly unlikely that he would have gotten it from anywhere but the source. |
| jerrod |
Posted - 21 Jun 2014 : 11:45:35
All signs including his methods and power point to mystra as his goddess |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 17 Jun 2014 : 07:09:29
We have already given reasonable alternate reasons why he could have chosen to let her see it. And you have not yet given definitive proof that there are no dark red crystal scrying bowls, anywhere in the Realms, that are not owned by Vhaeraunites. Just because group A had a red one, and group B had a black one, it does not mean that no other groups could ever own bowls of the same color.
And why do you spy on a small fry? Because no major threat ever emerged that was not, at one time, a small fry. You watch for potential threats so you can deal with them before they become major threats. You don't wait for enemies to show themselves, you make sure you know as much about them as you possibly can, before they come at you. |
| Alystra Illianniis |
Posted - 17 Jun 2014 : 06:25:45
I've seen his stats, and he does have some divination ability, to be sure, but why would he have been scrying on a relative "small fry" like Shakti? Outside of the Liriel books, she never had any importance at all. She was the book-keeper and breeder for her family's rothe-herding operation, which Gromph would have had little interest in. He had little reason to have any interest in her at all, aside from her rivalry with Liriel, which he had no reason to even care about. He's not much of a father-figure even under the most generous definition. Aside from what he could use her for, he barely even cared about is own daughter!
If I remember, Vaerhaun's followers have a mandate to retrieve any holy items or followers that fall into the hands of their enemies by whatever means possible, or to destroy such evidence when necessary. They will go out of their way to assist drow who are loyal to him, or who are allies to their cause. Part of their dogma even states that they are to help drow males against the followers of Lolth, or any who sympathize with their faith. That includes keeping holy items away from non-believers. So yes, they DO have ways of enforcing it- they steal them back or kill whomever has one without his blessing. Just as effective as Lolth's driders, considering they will often receive a message or vision of the item or individual, as well as location.
Yes, it was an actual item, as described in the books. Those bowls were described elsewhere as well, (I forget where- I think it might have been in the Demihuman Deities book or the original 2nd ed Drow of the Underdark set.) as a Vaerhaunite holy item, so even having one is more or less a declaration of being a follower. Shakti herself had never even seen one until she became a traitor-priestess, but she seemed to know OF them, IIRC. Gromph might have known of them, as well, but if so, he would have known their significance, so it wouldn't make sense for him to MAKE something that so closely resembles an item that is considered holy to that particular faith.
The fact that he DID allow her to see it indicates that yes, he knew she had become one of Vaerhuan's followers, and that he wished her to know that he was one as well- else why let her see it? He has always wanted to stick it to Lolth's fanatic followers, and what better way then to gain an ally from among them in a traitor to the faith? He was using Shakti, but he was letting her know that he was an ally, as well. In true drow fashion, of course. What's the saying? "If it can't be proven, than it never happened...."? He didn't TELL her he was one- he didn't HAVE to. But since all she saw was the bowl, he could easily deny it if she decided to narc on him. No one would be able to find the thing to prove it.
The passage where Shakti first receives hers seems to make it clear that these bowls have specific abilities and appearance, and IIRC, she hears his voice telling her how to use it and that it must be kept hidden to avoid suspicion. Also, In the Realms of the Underdark story, Drizzt's family has a scrying bowl of its own, but it's made of obsidian, and is a holy item dedicated to Lolth, so the red one seems to be distinctly different from those used by Lolthites. Again, it shows that they are unique.
Well, he DID have the crystal BOWL, so he probably could scry her through it, but would've had little reason to without some sort of directive or hint from Vaerhaun indicating that she was of interest to him. She WAS after all, a simple farmer and a low-ranking priestess. (House ranking not-withstanding....) |
| TBeholder |
Posted - 16 Jun 2014 : 17:35:18
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Alystra Illianniis
Doesn't make sense though. How would he even know about it or how it's created unless he WAS one? [...]
There is always scrying magic; he could have been spying on her.
And here we remember that Gromph is known to pay attention and use scrying from time to time - and in at least two versions of stats he's a diviner.
quote:
Originally posted by Alystra Illianniis
It is, IIRC, a holy item that AFAIK is EXCLUSIVE to his faith.
How is this possible to maintain?
Enforcing magically like Lolth with driders? That's expensive and would eventually open him to a direct tug-o-war with a more powerful deity. The difference being that Lolth can be reasonably sure Corellon's priests wouldn't even think to try and turn each other into driders to mess with her a little.
quote:
It wasn't a SPELL (although his summoning it might have been one) but an ITEM.
Is there any reason to be sure of this? 
quote:
So his having one at all is a VERY strong indicator that he was a follower as well
It's obvious that this was the whole point of showing it: to say he is one, without actually saying - thus he can't be caught on neither truth or lie, neither by her nor another.
quote:
The bowl has a specific appearance, as well, and for her to make not that his is identical speaks volumes.
You lost me here. What do you mean?
quote:
And as mentioned, Shakti's bowl was given to her DIRECTLY from Vaerhaun himself, which is why she was surprised to see him with one. It meant that he probably got it the same way she did.
Howwwww?!
quote:
The bowls are specific to his followers- and usually priests or "Chosen" at that. That is why Shakti had one. And she had to hide it, because of fear that any other Lolthite who saw it would know she was a traitor-priestess. [...]
And why else would he allow her to see it? He knew she was one as well;
Quite possibly. And in this case, would a drow archmage take such thing from his extraplanar safehold and... allow some semi-expendable small fry like Shakti to see it?..
Gromph usually plays it safe - that's exactly why he's still alive at such a position, after all.
I mean - even if he actually owns one as a personal gift from Vhaerun, exactly why he would do something so incriminating?
About the first thing that comes to mind - no truth-telling spell can beat it if you're actually saying the truth, however beside the point. "I was fairly sure that this one is a double priestess and that our archpriestess is in control of the situation, so of course I let her see a common scrying bowl disguised via simple spell to resemble the version known to be used by the Vhaerunites. What the big deal is supposed to be?".
quote:
it's a fair bet that he received a message or vision from Vaerhaun about her.
No, it's a safe bet that he received a vision via his wide-screen crystal ball, to see all the details. Because, again, he would do it either way. 
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
And perhaps Gromph wanted Shakti to know that he knew her secrets, and thus conjured the same type of bowl. Few things can scare someone like knowing a powerful potential enemy knows their secrets.
More likely, carrot and stick together.  |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 16 Jun 2014 : 03:47:11
I want to see it written in print somewhere that no one else in the Realms can have dark red crystal scrying bowls. Until I see that, I don't see that there is anything special about it, even if it came directly from Vhaeraun... Some deities send gemstones as signs of their approval; it doesn't mean that all such examples of those gemstones come from the deity.
The reason she had to hide it could have been nothing more than Lolth favoring black onyx scrying bowls (hypothetically), and using something different would have been taken as a sign of disfavor.
And perhaps Gromph wanted Shakti to know that he knew her secrets, and thus conjured the same type of bowl. Few things can scare someone like knowing a powerful potential enemy knows their secrets. |
| Alystra Illianniis |
Posted - 16 Jun 2014 : 03:41:47
It is, IIRC, a holy item that AFAIK is EXCLUSIVE to his faith. It wasn't a SPELL (although his summoning it might have been one) but an ITEM. The bowls are specific to his followers- and usually priests or "Chosen" at that. That is why Shakti had one. And she had to hide it, because of fear that any other Lolthite who saw it would know she was a traitor-priestess. So his having one at all is a VERY strong indicator that he was a follower as well, or he never would have let her see it. The bowl has a specific appearance, as well, and for her to make not that his is identical speaks volumes. And as mentioned, Shakti's bowl was given to her DIRECTLY from Vaerhaun himself, which is why she was surprised to see him with one. It meant that he probably got it the same way she did. And why else would he allow her to see it? He knew she was one as well; it's a fair bet that he received a message or vision from Vaerhaun about her. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 16 Jun 2014 : 01:35:59
Where is it written that dark red crystal scrying bowls are the exclusive property of Vhaeraun?
And what would Vhaeraun do to someone making their own? Deities have temples and altars get destroyed by members of rival faiths, without taking direct action, and/or artifacts of their church get stolen... A deity can't smite someone for something like that; they would have to send their followers to do something about it. And the Archmage of Menzoberranzan is a pretty hard target...
Again, I'm not arguing that Gromph follows Vhaeraun. I'm just saying, again, that I don't think the casting of a single spell with an unremarkable effect is proof positive of that. |
| Alystra Illianniis |
Posted - 16 Jun 2014 : 01:02:44
Having read the book myself, I never got that impression. It was very clear that him having the exact same device (and those are only given to Vaerhaunites BY HIM) indicated that he was a follower. I do not think that Vaerhaun would ever allow someone who was not a follower to acquire or create a scrying bowl that is a special "gift" from him to his followers. As an archmage, Gromph would be well aware that doing so would rouse the deity's wrath toward him, and I seriously doubt he'd ever risk that. As much as he hates Lolth, he'd never do something to directly anger ANY deity. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 16 Jun 2014 : 00:49:42
quote:
Originally posted by Alystra Illianniis
Doesn't make sense though. How would he even know about it or how it's created unless he WAS one? I've always thought he was a Vaerhaunite, too, by some of the things he said and thought throughout the books. He may keep it a closely guarded secret- for self-preservation if nothing else- but he seems more likely to follow Vaerhaun than anyone else. I seriously doubt he'd follow Ghaunadaur, but Vaerhaun seems to fit him quite well, given his taste for intrigue and deception.
There is always scrying magic; he could have been spying on her. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 16 Jun 2014 : 00:48:03
I'm not disputing that he is a follower of Vhaeraun; I'm just saying that the similarity of a scrying device isn't proof of faith. As the quoted passage implies, one possibility was that he deliberately mimicked the bowl she had as a message to her. |
| Alystra Illianniis |
Posted - 15 Jun 2014 : 20:46:36
Doesn't make sense though. How would he even know about it or how it's created unless he WAS one? I've always thought he was a Vaerhaunite, too, by some of the things he said and thought throughout the books. He may keep it a closely guarded secret- for self-preservation if nothing else- but he seems more likely to follow Vaerhaun than anyone else. I seriously doubt he'd follow Ghaunadaur, but Vaerhaun seems to fit him quite well, given his taste for intrigue and deception. |
| Zireael |
Posted - 15 Jun 2014 : 19:48:22
Well, I can easily imagine Gromph coming up with such a spell independently of the Vhaeraunite clergy, as he's an archmage after all. |
| TBeholder |
Posted - 15 Jun 2014 : 18:31:39
quote:
Originally posted by Shadowlord
Since he doesn't follow Lolth, do you think he follows Eilistraee, Vhaeraun, Kiaransalee, Ghaunadaur, or some other deity?
Why not just like anyone who isn't a fanatic or even particularly devoted - a little of everything he doesn't actively dislike?
quote:
Originally posted by Shadowlord
In Realms of the Underdark, he helps Zaknafein, who is a good drow, thusly leading me to believe he does not follow Vhaeraun. Vhaeraun's clergy helps males in need, but they do not help good-aligned drow.
We know he isn't a priest anyway, so non sequitur.
Moreover, even if he was a priest, and Zaknafein was good, so what? It makes sense that they don't go out of their way to help someone they don't expect to convert or even help them much, but why would they miss a chance to wreck the plans of matrons just because it benefits someone less important whom they don't like? Out of some bizarre "Tru Evil!" sanctimony? They're thieves and saboteurs, not Death Metal fans.
quote:
Originally posted by Bladewind
Love this guys description. Really icky. And the act of breaking a finger and subsequently casting 24 magic missiles is both gross and awesome. I wish I'd been this creative with my magic-using villain designs.
IIRC, a fairly common drow trick, called "body weapon". Can't remember where it was described, but there were examples of weirder triggers.
Non-drow related spells include Blood Lightning and Laeral's Disrobement. |
| Blackwhite |
Posted - 15 Jun 2014 : 17:58:06
From Tangled Webs - Page 129
"The Archmage helo out his hands to her, palms up. Although they had been empty a moment before, cradled between them was a tiny bowl of dark red crystal. It grew rapidly until it was identical in every respect to the srying bowl given to Shakti by the drow god Vhaeraun. The priestess stared, too stunned to hide her astonishment."
Then the next page
"Shakti could well imagine why. She would never accuse the archmage of Menzoberranzan of consorting with Vhaeraun, but what other explanation could there be? Where else could Gromph have acquired that scrying bowl? Or have learned so much about her plans? Or have gotten past the god-given wards on her chamber? Yes, she had a very good idea why Gromph Baenre had no wish to be seen in the presence of his sister's traitor-priestess."
So you must accept, if that passage is to be taken literally that Gromph serves Vhaeraun. And if not then which other god? Ghaunadaur? Certainly not Lolth or Eilistraee. He certainly has a deity as that would be the only way to break the god-wards of the masked lord.
Off topic - Pretty sure Jarlaxle is a Chosen of Ghaunadaur. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 15 Jun 2014 : 10:00:42
Apologies to TBeholder... He had a duplicate post, and it looks like he went back to delete one at the same time I was deleting the other! Sorry about that, TB!  |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 14 Jun 2014 : 20:28:36
quote:
Originally posted by Blackwhite
I know this topic is old but I just happen to come across it. In the Starlight and Shadows series, Shakti Huzrin is a double agent Drow for both Lolth and Vhaeraun. She meets with Gromph Baenre (can't rememeber which book exactly) and watches him summon a scrying crystal from thin air. She notes that it is the same one she is able to bring into existence by the power of Vhaeraun. I'd be almost 100% sure that Gromph Baenre is a Vhaeraunite, can't say for sure about Jalynfein as it seems so little is known of him.
While I do think Gromph is a follower of Vhaeraun, I have to apologize for saying I think that basing this on just a single common spell is very, very weak. There are a lot of spells shared among the various priesthoods, and there is a lot of arcane magic that duplicates divine magic, and vice versa. And some clerics do gain a few arcane spells, too.
Not only that, but summoning a scrying crystal is hardly the most unique application of magic. Even if there wasn't already an arcane version of the spell, Gromph could have seen it used and developed his own version. Or some past cleric could have developed a divine version of the spell, after seeing a wizard use it.
So having one unremarkable bit of magic in common is not, to me, conclusive proof of anything. It's barely even worth notation, in my opinion.
Actually, given how closely Gromp plays everything to the chest, and how long he'd live as a known Vhaeraunite, I'd expect that if it was a Vhaeraun-only spell, he'd not use it at all unless he knew there would be no non-Vhaeraunite witnesses about.
No, for me, the indications of where Gromph's loyalties lie are in everything we've seen about his personality and character, and in particular his dissatisfaction with Lolth's priesthood and her grip on the city. |
| Blackwhite |
Posted - 14 Jun 2014 : 14:17:06
I know this topic is old but I just happen to come across it. In the Starlight and Shadows series, Shakti Huzrin is a double agent Drow for both Lolth and Vhaeraun. She meets with Gromph Baenre (can't rememeber which book exactly) and watches him summon a scrying crystal from thin air. She notes that it is the same one she is able to bring into existence by the power of Vhaeraun. I'd be almost 100% sure that Gromph Baenre is a Vhaeraunite, can't say for sure about Jalynfein as it seems so little is known of him. |
| Alystra Illianniis |
Posted - 15 Jan 2013 : 20:28:29
I only remember him from the short story, but he was very intriguing. I liked his take on giving Lolth the "finger", as it were. |
| Bladewind |
Posted - 15 Jan 2013 : 16:41:54
Love this guys description. Really icky. And the act of breaking a finger and subsequently casting 24 magic missiles is both gross and awesome. I wish I'd been this creative with my magic-using villain designs. |
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