| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Eilserus |
Posted - 02 Jul 2013 : 21:22:40
So what do people want to see the Zhentarim doing in 5E? I'm kind of wondering if it wouldn't be a nice change to have them based in Mulmaster. Perhaps have Fzoul return as a banelich to head the Church of Bane? Do you think they would still be pursuing mercantile domination or a different means to fund their operations? |
| 30 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| Derulbaskul |
Posted - 24 Dec 2013 : 05:25:12
quote:
Originally posted by The ArcanamachOk I REALLY like this idea despite the fact that I'm a bit sick of the emphasis on Manny's clones. Manshoon has so much potential as a villian in the Realms...it really makes me sick how he was depicted in many novels. (snip)
Fair enough... but this can be the last clone that ever appears in your game. :)
quote:
(snip) On a side note...BRING BACK THE SHADOWSIL or at least create a few more evil women for the Realms. Villainy often seems so one sided with male characters (whilst the ladies are usually treated as enlightened and good-hearted). Spread the love, erm HATE, I say.
By contrast, I was looking at my various campaign outlines that I have written up that I plan to run over the next couple of years and most of them feature a BBEG who is female.
I was worried for a moment that I had discovered that I was a repressed misogynist! :) |
| The Arcanamach |
Posted - 02 Dec 2013 : 07:20:19
quote:
I would also bring back a younger Manshoon clone created when Manshoon was first learning how to craft clones. This younger Manshoon would have a fire in his belly and his motivations would be much like the original Manshoon and so he would want to see the Zhentarim great again. Perhaps it's the beholders who bring this younger Manshoon back because they want "their" Zhentarim again. Yeah, I would definitely increase the role of beholders in the 5E version of the Zhentarim.
Ok I REALLY like this idea despite the fact that I'm a bit sick of the emphasis on Manny's clones. Manshoon has so much potential as a villian in the Realms...it really makes me sick how he was depicted in many novels.
On a side note...BRING BACK THE SHADOWSIL or at least create a few more evil women for the Realms. Villainy often seems so one sided with male characters (whilst the ladies are usually treated as enlightened and good-hearted). Spread the love, erm HATE, I say. |
| Alruane |
Posted - 30 Nov 2013 : 05:36:36
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I'd like to see the Zhents back as they were in 3E. I did not like what 4E did to them.
Agreed! |
| Derulbaskul |
Posted - 30 Nov 2013 : 05:04:38
I have already mentioned wanting to see Ed's vision of the Zhentarim for the reconstituted Realms but I would also like to see them introduced in a manner that sets them up as really good long-term villains.
In my own game, Zhentil Keep is beginning to be rebuilt. This is causing a trade boom in the area surrounding Zhentil Keep - primarily the Moonsea and the Dalelands - and that has provided the spark for the Zhentarim to get its act together, which includes shucking off a lot of the Cyricist influence.
The Zhentarim are, once again, looking to control those trade routes and more. In short, the rebuilding of Zhentil Keep is meant to rebuild the Zhentarim financially.
(For a real world example of this, look at the current situation in the Philippines. The recent devastating earthquake and even more devastating super-typhoon has resulted in a lot of foreign aid being directed toward the Philippines. The entire government apparatus from the president down is completely corrupt and expect to earn their usual 20%+ from the rebuilding. So, yes, thanks to various countries, rebuilding is going to take place... but the president and his cronies will finish their terms far wealthier than when they began their terms.)
Also, the need for massive quantities of raw materials will see:
- the Mines of Tethyamar will become a figurative gold mine... and the Zhents will want control of Dagger Falls to ensure an unimpeded flow of ores to Zhentil Keep;
- the Border Forest is going to logged extensively putting the Zhentarim at odds with the local elves, other fey and the druids;
- Daggerdale (not just the aforementioned Dagger Falls) and Shadowdale have the potential to become battlegrounds again as the Zhents seek to dominate those trade routes;
- Phlan could also become a battleground as it's the waypoint for ores and ingots from the Dragonspine mountains;
- etc....
These and similar ideas then provide lots of reasons for adventurers to get involved: the adventures largely write themselves with this sort of set up.
I would also bring back a younger Manshoon clone created when Manshoon was first learning how to craft clones. This younger Manshoon would have a fire in his belly and his motivations would be much like the original Manshoon and so he would want to see the Zhentarim great again. Perhaps it's the beholders who bring this younger Manshoon back because they want "their" Zhentarim again. Yeah, I would definitely increase the role of beholders in the 5E version of the Zhentarim.
Anyway, that's how I am running the Zhents in my 4E campaign but I think it would work well for the new Realms as well... provided Ed gets to write the Zhentarim the way they were originally meant to be written instead of the pale mockery given to us because of TSR's comics code-like philosophy. |
| Derulbaskul |
Posted - 30 Nov 2013 : 04:09:00
quote:
Originally posted by Lord Bane
quote:
Originally posted by Derulbaskul
quote:
Originally posted by Lord Bane(snip) Fzoul is still chosen of Bane and heads the church with Manshoon making a complete switch to Bane(not likely though as he is atheist)and runs the organisation with Fzoul again. (snip)
Atheist?
I would re-read the Zhent section of Elminster's Guide to the Forgotten Realms before thinking that.
Manshoon went with Bane as it was the best choice for his ambition. That does not mean he is a devout follower of Bane and he is more interested in gaining power for himself and not any deity. If it would be up to him, he would not bow to the whim of any deity at all and sees them more as a means to achieve something. He is not clergy and that makes him less reliable on Bane“s good will, mind you he would not be so stupid to outright offend Bane but i see him more as a "i am my own master" person.
Here's what Ed had to say in Elminster's Guide to the Forgotten Realms:
quote:
(snip) To guard against Mystra and Azuth foiling his ambitions with their dictates, Manshoon sought the personal patronage of Bane, and won it.
Though his fortunes have risen and fallen with Bane's, ever since, the two have aided each other effectively. Bane's return was rooted in creatures readied by Manshoon's magic. In gratitude - and from a desire to maintain one of his most useful mortal pawns - Bane has rescued Manshoon time and time again. (snip)
When I read that I realised that the relationship with Manshoon and Bane was far closer than we had previously seen.
|
| SirUrza |
Posted - 30 Nov 2013 : 03:37:57
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
Ultimately, I'm looking for what I felt when I read the 2e FRCS. Every so often, you'd find a tidbit about the Zhentarim having secret agents or infiltrators in this or that region or town. They were THE 2e-era bad guys bent on controlling everyone and everything between Zhentil Keep and the Sword Coast. Really, I'd like to see a return to just that once more.
This.. with an occasional attempt to invade the Dales. |
| The Madmage |
Posted - 30 Nov 2013 : 02:07:01
quote:
Originally posted by The Arcanamach
Gonna add me own opinions here. First, I want to see the Black Network rise again but, this time, in a more clandestine manner. I see them as a sort of 'anti-harper' organization. That is, working mostly in secret to achieve their goals...even working within the bounds of the law as often as possible (to give them a level of legitimacy). That said, they can have some locations that are 'open secrets' (such as Twilight Hall for the Harpers) whilst keeping their truly secret plots buried elsewhere.
quote:
Originally posted by The Arcanamach
Fourth, Markustay's idea of 'guildhalls' that operate similar to the Thayan Enclaves is spot on. This gives them the legitimacy they need while still allowing for nefarious dealings, but I would keep the bulk of their illegal/evil activities out of their backyard by taking steps to ensure that the guildhalls don't actually participate in such activity (where possible). The bulk of the workers should have little or no idea that they are part of a criminal syndicate.
I'd see them working openly within lands they control like say Zhentil Keep and the surrounding lands but work through operatives or intermediaries in hostile territories. More on that below.
quote:
Originally posted by The Arcanamach
Second, I'm in the rebuild Zhentil Keep camp. As mentioned above, cities are rebuilt for a reason (trade and resources, not to mention bulk of population that can't leave the area). So it makes sense that the Keep would be rebuilt. Madmage hit upon a great idea in that the 'face' of the project could be a true patriot. He doesn't necessarily have to be a member of the Network, just an individual who wants to see his home regain the influence it once had. I see him (or her) as a very charismatic leader of NON-EVIL alignment (I think N or LN) who accepts backing from the Network to see his city and its power rebuilt.
Working with the Zhentarim and knowing what the organization is would certainly count as being complicit with its activities so even being a LN or N might be stretching it. The old 2e [Lawful] Neutral (with evil tendencies) might be more applicable. I'd see the character as someone that is relatively benign or even populist when it comes to domestic policy:
- The leader could've banned slavery of any Zhent citizen, but slavery of foreign peoples remains legal.
- Keeps crime low and limits graft and corruption but at the same time, the penalties for crimes are quite harsh by even medieval standards.
- Bans live sacrifices of Zhent citizens by the local faiths.
- Ensures that citizens and legal immigrants get good wages while working on construction efforts to encourage them to stay.
- Spends generously on public works that at least on the surface benefit the population.
- Self-aggrandizement through his many "charitable works".
- Compulsory military service.
- Offers land grants to retiring Zhentilar/Zhentarim members and their families for settlement.
- Invite foreign states to build embassies within the city.
Basically, his/her power base would be based on the "power of the people". A master at propaganda who inspires national pride and uses fear of foreign powers to keep the populace motivated and in check. Meanwhile, he/she's as vile as anyone else on the Inner Council when it comes to foreign policy. The character's view of the Zhentarim is that of a sort of extension of Zhentil Keep's foreign interests combined with the CIA. While he/she might see a Zhent slave as abhorrent, he/she wouldn't bat an eye if a Cormyrean was being sold in the slave market of the city unless said individual would be more useful as a political or military hostage.
The Zhentarim would work openly within the Keep but on the surface appear to act as a separate entity. The Zhentilar is the police force and national guard/reserve when it comes to warfare. But during peace time, the Black Network would actively recruit from the ranks for postings in "foreign" lands like Darkhold or the Citadel of the Raven, or anywhere else the Zhentarim is pursuing its objectives.
From a mercantile perspective, the Zhentarim would benefit from privileges like exemptions on tariffs or monopolies on certain goods (drugs and weaponry come to mind). Foreign merchants would then not feel totally screwed by doing trade within the Keep. Furthermore, it would then allow the organization to reach out and form partnerships with some merchants for their own purposes.
Basically, the Zhentarim's overt influence on the city is exerted with a light touch with the purpose of making the Keep the ideal recruiting ground for the organization as a whole. Serving the Zhentarim would not just be a self-serving goal but a patriotic one as well.
quote:
Originally posted by The Arcanamach
Third, the idea of a council works best, IMO. I would limit it to 10-12 members with Manshoon being a 13th (cliche, I know) who acts as a tie-breaker but who has largely begun to move on to 'greater' concerns. For him, the Network is just a means to an ends (and a very secret one at that). So, he is the leader of the Network but leaves the bulk of their operations to the council, stepping in only to break ties or to ensure that certain things get done (he can always dominate them if necessary).
10-12 is a bit much IMO as I feel like individual "cells" or infiltration groups wouldn't merit an Inner Council position. They would be too vulnerable to capture and thus harmful to the organization's greater goals. "Too many chiefs, not enough Indians" comes to mind.
quote:
Originally posted by The Arcanamach
Fifth, I really don't want the Network to be an extension of any one deity. So the idea of a Banite presence balanced by the presence of Loviatar's clergy works for me. The two churches are 'allies' but that doesn't prevent them from working at odds to promote their own religions. I don't see the return of Fzoul as a good thing, btw. He is a divine being now and his return would either be too disruptive or, in the case of his demotion from Exarch, too unbelievable to be feasible.
I'm in the same camp. The old Moonsea and Ruins of Zhentil Keep book had characters of different faiths operating within the lands under their sway or working with the Zhentarim. I recall a priest of Tempus at the Citadel of the Raven for example. They would be limiting themselves to perspective recruits by limiting themselves to a single religion. The network's assassins could turn to the returned Bhaal who once served under Bane. The wizards might revere Mystra or one of her subordinate gods of magic. The common soldiers or mercenaries might favour Tempus, Waukeen or even Helm while military commanders enforce discipline based on the tenets of Bane.
Not to mention their non-human members or even beholder cults! |
| The Madmage |
Posted - 30 Nov 2013 : 00:30:02
The "Thaymarts" were one of the 2 big changes from 2E to 3E I was not a fan of. It reduced the sense of wonder for magic by making it just a commodity or tool. That said, I wouldn't mind seeing the Zhentarim work through more legitimate concerns or at least through other so merchant consortiums as cover or a front for their illicit dealings. |
| The Arcanamach |
Posted - 30 Nov 2013 : 00:10:26
Gonna add me own opinions here. First, I want to see the Black Network rise again but, this time, in a more clandestine manner. I see them as a sort of 'anti-harper' organization. That is, working mostly in secret to achieve their goals...even working within the bounds of the law as often as possible (to give them a level of legitimacy). That said, they can have some locations that are 'open secrets' (such as Twilight Hall for the Harpers) whilst keeping their truly secret plots buried elsewhere.
Second, I'm in the rebuild Zhentil Keep camp. As mentioned above, cities are rebuilt for a reason (trade and resources, not to mention bulk of population that can't leave the area). So it makes sense that the Keep would be rebuilt. Madmage hit upon a great idea in that the 'face' of the project could be a true patriot. He doesn't necessarily have to be a member of the Network, just an individual who wants to see his home regain the influence it once had. I see him (or her) as a very charismatic leader of NON-EVIL alignment (I think N or LN) who accepts backing from the Network to see his city and its power rebuilt.
Third, the idea of a council works best, IMO. I would limit it to 10-12 members with Manshoon being a 13th (cliche, I know) who acts as a tie-breaker but who has largely begun to move on to 'greater' concerns. For him, the Network is just a means to an ends (and a very secret one at that). So, he is the leader of the Network but leaves the bulk of their operations to the council, stepping in only to break ties or to ensure that certain things get done (he can always dominate them if necessary).
Fourth, Markustay's idea of 'guildhalls' that operate similar to the Thayan Enclaves is spot on. This gives them the legitimacy they need while still allowing for nefarious dealings, but I would keep the bulk of their illegal/evil activities out of their backyard by taking steps to ensure that the guildhalls don't actually participate in such activity (where possible). The bulk of the workers should have little or no idea that they are part of a criminal syndicate.
Fifth, I really don't want the Network to be an extension of any one deity. So the idea of a Banite presence balanced by the presence of Loviatar's clergy works for me. The two churches are 'allies' but that doesn't prevent them from working at odds to promote their own religions. I don't see the return of Fzoul as a good thing, btw. He is a divine being now and his return would either be too disruptive or, in the case of his demotion from Exarch, too unbelievable to be feasible.
All together, I see the Rise of the Black Network as a REALLY good thing. It moves the setting back to its roots and, hopefully, they will be used the way Ed originally meant them to be. Cheers. |
| The Madmage |
Posted - 29 Nov 2013 : 14:19:50
quote:
Originally posted by Aldrick
After reading the thoughts of others, I'm going to have to agree and say leave Zhentil Keep in ruins. Give them control over the Citadel of the Raven and Darkhold as open bases of operations.
The problem with that is Darkhold and the Citadel of the Raven were military fortifications only. Well, the Citadel was starting to have a small community built around it after the fall of the Keep. If the Zhentarim are to return to their mercantile roots, they need a population to serve as the basis of an economy. Unless you want to turn them into a parasitic organization like say the Cult of the Dragon's old hold on Sembia.
quote:
Originally posted by Aldrick
As for who leads the group, I once again state that I would NOT like to see Fzoul or Manshoon take up the mantle, and would prefer some type of council. (This could allow for power plays WITHIN the Zhents themselves among the various members of the council.) Have the council operate similarly to the Hidden Lord's of Waterdeep. There would be some open members of the Council, who deal with the various matters of the Zhents publicly. However, the majority would be completely hidden and unnamed. I really like that suggestion by Krafus.
Honestly, I wouldn't mind seeing Fzoul and Manshoon still around but pursuing their own agendas while working with the Zhentarim too. The Inner Council could include more members (a replacement for Semmemmon as leader of Darkhold at the very least) with each pursuing their own objectives. Some might be wholly devoted to the day to day operations of the Black Network, while Fzoul splits his efforts between the Church of Bane and the Zhents. Manshoon would be a sort of "chairman of the board" that guides the discussion and goals of the organization but leaves the Modus operandi to the others. A revamped council might look like Manshoon, Fzoul, "ruler of Zhentil Keep", commander of Darkhold, commander of the Citadel of the Raven, the caravan master of their trade routes, a counterspy inquisitor type, etc. I'd keep the number to fewer than 10. Any larger and it just becomes bogged down with bureaucracy or paralysis in the face of crises. Say 6 or 8 members with Manshoon reserving an extra tie-breaking vote for himself.
With such a structure there can be a bit of infighting in the group:
1) Both commanders of Darkhold and Citadel of the Raven vying to ascend to a role of overall commander of the Zhentilar/Zhentarim military forces or to get more troops assigned to their strongholds. The commander of Darkhold's main concern is fear of attack from Cormyr so he constantly makes demands to strengthen the hold or weaken Cormyr without pissing them off too much.
2) The caravan master having to constantly struggle with getting said commanders to relinquish more men to guard caravans, etc.
3) The "ruler" of Zhentil Keep could be a true Zhent patriot who seeks to rebuild the city to its former glory. His main objective within the Zhentarim is to use it as a vehicle to obtain resources for the reconstruction. He/she would be less interested in the various plots to spend resources in trying to expand influence in far off locations.
4) The Counterspy/inquisitor could be a priest (priestesses are too cliché) of Loviatar who excels at interrogation through both physical and mental means. He'd had some interest in keeping the Zhentarim from becoming wholly converted to Bane because of his devotion to his deity. The character might have a vendetta against a group like say the Harpers and his inclusion in the Zhentarim serves his need for revenge.
5) What I'd do with the Caravan master is an evil follower of Waukeen. Someone who lost in a bid to become the head of the Church in Amn and joined the Zhentarim to amass wealth and influence to take down the current head. In the mean time, promoting trade as the primary method of "conquest" serves Waukeen in a perverse way.
6) As for Fzoul (or any proxy of the Church of Bane), his primary goal is the spread of the worship of Bane. The Zhentarim's traditional Bane worship is a tool he is willing to exploit to that end.
7) As for Manshoon himself, I'd like to see an expansion of the concept where his own goals have almost transcended the Black Network. The resources of the organization allows him a free hand to pursue his own pet projects. Maybe the whole bid of the Manshoon Wars was to gain great personal power as alluded to in some sources (Dragon mag and the last Elminster book). Or perhaps he seeks godhood for himself but he is doomed for failure because he is too embroiled in his own personal vendettas or temporal interests to rise above the mortal coil; stuck in a semi-divine state where he cannot shed his hatred of Elminster and/or other rivals, involvement in the Zhentarim, former goals to conquer the Realms, etc.
quote:
Originally posted by Aldrick
Members of the council would be located all over Faerun. They'd all have a magic item that would allow them to be contacted by other members of the Council at any time for the purposes of long range communication. The item would also allow them to project an illusionary image of themselves in the Council Chamber (an image which they could also speak and see through as if they were there personally), allowing them to conduct council meetings remotely. If they are in physical danger the item should allow them to teleport to the Council Chamber.
I'd never give the exact location of where the Council meets, and it's likely that most of the members of the Council wouldn't know either... though I'd hint that it was carved out inside a mountain located somewhere in the Greypeaks... which pretty much puts it out in the middle of nowhere. The only way to gain entrance would be through magic as there would be no physical entrance or exit.
Been watching Naruto? :P
|
| Lord Bane |
Posted - 29 Nov 2013 : 13:24:54
quote:
Originally posted by Derulbaskul
quote:
Originally posted by Lord Bane(snip) Fzoul is still chosen of Bane and heads the church with Manshoon making a complete switch to Bane(not likely though as he is atheist)and runs the organisation with Fzoul again. (snip)
Atheist?
I would re-read the Zhent section of Elminster's Guide to the Forgotten Realms before thinking that.
Manshoon went with Bane as it was the best choice for his ambition. That does not mean he is a devout follower of Bane and he is more interested in gaining power for himself and not any deity. If it would be up to him, he would not bow to the whim of any deity at all and sees them more as a means to achieve something. He is not clergy and that makes him less reliable on Bane“s good will, mind you he would not be so stupid to outright offend Bane but i see him more as a "i am my own master" person. |
| Mapolq |
Posted - 29 Nov 2013 : 13:08:29
Also, as of 3e I think the Red Wizards of Thay were a step ahead of any other organisation. The Thayan Enclaves were an awesome idea, IMO. This single strategy gave the Red Wizards actual, meaningful Faerūn-wide reach (and DMs the potential to present them in a more "shades of gray" manner). Literally they had real influence from Thay to Waterdeep, from Estagund to Mulmaster. Then the Zulkirs really blew it all up, which kinda makes sense, they were never all in it from the beginning. But it was a let down for me... maybe it was just too fast. |
| Mapolq |
Posted - 29 Nov 2013 : 12:54:28
I say rebuild Zhentil Keep. Largely because I want the Realms map to look as close to the 2e and 3e one (yeah, the 3e one was distorted and some places were missing, but we could usually shoehorn, say, Erlkazar or Shaarreach near the places they were because they weren't explicitly destroyed at least).
But I say this with way more propriety than when I want characters to come back, because I actually think it makes a lot of sense. There's a reason burned, sacked and/or abandoned cities get rebuilt. Even if there's no infrastructure left, anyone would like a good chunk of real estate at the mouth of the Tesh, Zhentarim or not.
The Citadel of the Raven is a similar issue... now, I don't know how much the Shades wrecked it, but it was a system of fortifications which would be ranked as one of the best in Faerūn. If it's still in decent shape, someone will be in there, in force. Even if it's a ruin, someone will still probably be in there (which might be bad for a Zhentarim renaissance).
So... I want to see the Zhentarim back pretty much the way they were. I wouldn't necessarily like Fzoul and/or Manshoon at the helm, but wouldn't mind it either. But what I'd like to see most is Zhentil Keep rebuilt, but not necessarily at the hands of the Zhentarim. It could actually be a pretty awesome scenario to have the Zhentarim fighting the "new Zhents" to take over their home city. The new Zhents could actually be from Hillsfar or Sembia. Would make sense that the Shades would like to send someone to settle there, or support such a venture. I'd prefer Sembia free of Shade but if it's not, it's a good excuse. |
| Derulbaskul |
Posted - 29 Nov 2013 : 11:45:08
quote:
Originally posted by Lord Bane(snip) Fzoul is still chosen of Bane and heads the church with Manshoon making a complete switch to Bane(not likely though as he is atheist)and runs the organisation with Fzoul again. (snip)
Atheist?
I would re-read the Zhent section of Elminster's Guide to the Forgotten Realms before thinking that.
As for Fzoul, there is no way he should have become a demipower of Bane after failing. I think that needs to be reversed.
But put the Zhents back in the middle of the Heartlands again where they belong, but make them more careful and a lot sneakier. Frankly, give Ed complete control over their write-up and let them be written the way they should have been from the very beginning.
And bring back the Pride of the Brotherhood, the original stylised Z symbol. |
| Markustay |
Posted - 05 Jul 2013 : 13:47:15
quote:
Originally posted by Aldrick
After reading the thoughts of others, I'm going to have to agree and say leave Zhentil Keep in ruins. Give them control over the Citadel of the Raven and Darkhold as open bases of operations. <snip>
I forgot about Darkhold...
Maybe have the Cormyrians take the citadel- there are two important reasons for that: Cormyr has been expanding in a major way (and become more militarized, from what we've seen), and the Zhents have fallen from power. In the face of that, how would a decentralized and low-powered Zhent group have kept the Keep in the face of what Cormyr has become? (an Empire)
But here's the REAL deal.... remember that ex-Purple Dragon living in the swamps? Thaalim Torchtower? Weeeeelll... it turns out he was a double-agent for Cormyr. He was planted there in order to infiltrate the Zhents at Darkhold and undermine their operations. Eventually this came to pass - his 'bandits' arrived in te nick-of-time to help some beleagured Zhents drive off a group of Purple Dragons who were attacking them (this was all staged), and they were invited to join the organization. This was all part of Azoun's plan, and it was working fine... but then Azoun died. Thaalim had sworn a personal (and secret) oath to the King, and after Azoun's death he had mixed feelings about how to proceed. Then the Spellplague struck, and he saw his opportunity to seize the Citadel, with all the magic-users out of commission.
So a century later, the Citadel is run by Cormyr, or rather, Torchtower's grandson. Only problem is, they are secretly in league with the Zhents, and have been all along (THaalim became a double-double agent!) Cormyr thinks it runs the Citadel, but the truth is the gaurds there are all personally loyal to Torchtower, and the place is full of graft and corruption (but done in such a way that no-one back in the capital suspects a thing). Zhent 'gaurded' caravans come and go through the region, and nothing has really changed, except that it is all going on right under Cormyr's nose and they don't even know they should be doing something about it.
And THAT is how I would have it all fall out.... 
As for Citadel of the Raven, I would leave it similar to Zhentil Keep - a husk of what it once was, with a secret cabal of Zhent Mages operating out of the place. It would be more like a magical school to train their wizards - the Guildhalls being their military arm and spread all over. No-one should suspect there is any Zhentish activity there any longer - the wizards should keep some monsters around (real or illusionary) to drive off inquisitive types (maybe even a family of dragons). |
| Lord Bane |
Posted - 05 Jul 2013 : 09:19:37
That would support my hypothesis that Bane becomes the new deity of undeath  |
| lordsknight185 |
Posted - 05 Jul 2013 : 07:48:35
quote:
Originally posted by Eilserus
I imagine demi-gods could give up their divinity. They're probably not completely "gone" like a full fledged deity would be. Baneliches were supposedly quasi demipowers of Bane. I'd lean to him being a banelich thus easing the process if they were to bring him back.
Hmm banelich Fzoul and vampire Manshoon...Undead EVERYWHERE...I like it >.>; |
| Eilserus |
Posted - 05 Jul 2013 : 02:12:06
I imagine demi-gods could give up their divinity. They're probably not completely "gone" like a full fledged deity would be. Baneliches were supposedly quasi demipowers of Bane. I'd lean to him being a banelich thus easing the process if they were to bring him back. |
| lordsknight185 |
Posted - 05 Jul 2013 : 02:01:47
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I, personally, would like to see Zhentil Keep rebuilt. It would fit in with prior lore, since they've rebuilt it once before, in a short amount of time. And I vehemently dislike the way it was casually wiped off the map by the Shades, too, and would dearly like to see that undone.
As for the leadership, I'm undecided on that. I do like Manshoon, and should like to see him around, but I don't know that I'd put him back on top. And I can take or leave Fzoul.
What might be fun is if "Lord Orgauth" had sired a half-fiend son before he was slain, and that son -- or a descendant -- was now ruling the Keep.
I agree, Zhentil Keep is a staple of the realms to me. and vampire Manshoon should remain in a high position, even if he falls back to a more sub-leader as he was in 3e but I still want to see him there.
The biggest question I have is about Fzoul. He is technically a demi-god now. can demi-gods be demoted back to mortalship? (Being mortal chosen of Bane would still be a step down from demi-godhood) |
| carbos |
Posted - 04 Jul 2013 : 21:57:07
I would like them to stay dead. Out of all 3e->4e mess, destruction of Zhentil Keep is one of very few things I fully approve. |
| Eilserus |
Posted - 04 Jul 2013 : 01:28:12
Heh, the Shadovar most certainly have something coming up that's gonna cause some problems for them. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 04 Jul 2013 : 00:00:21
I, personally, would like to see Zhentil Keep rebuilt. It would fit in with prior lore, since they've rebuilt it once before, in a short amount of time. And I vehemently dislike the way it was casually wiped off the map by the Shades, too, and would dearly like to see that undone.
As for the leadership, I'm undecided on that. I do like Manshoon, and should like to see him around, but I don't know that I'd put him back on top. And I can take or leave Fzoul.
What might be fun is if "Lord Orgauth" had sired a half-fiend son before he was slain, and that son -- or a descendant -- was now ruling the Keep. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 03 Jul 2013 : 23:53:38
quote:
Originally posted by Lord Bane
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
When were the Zhents ever the greatest threat to Faerūn? In times past, they've been more prominent than other threats, yes, but they were far from being the greatest -- they were simply one among many.
They were one of many but among those many they had by far the biggest impact on Faerun when it came to political weight and influence combined with the means to shake things up. The only other organisation who came close were the Red Wizards of Thay but they were less "the world is ours" and more "profit and power".
They may have had a bigger impact than most other groups, but I'd not say their impact -- outside of the Moonsea area and the Dales -- was dramatically more than anyone else's. 10 copper is more than 7 copper, but it's still far less than a gold piece.
Don't get me wrong, I like the Zhents -- I just don't think they are that huge a threat to all the Realms. |
| Krafus |
Posted - 03 Jul 2013 : 23:25:35
quote:
Originally posted by Lord Bane
A return to the Church of Bane as one of it“s enforcing instruments and purging of all the cyricist influences. You may argue with me but they were the most powerful as Fzoul had them entrenched with the Church of Bane and this combination is what makes the Zhentarim the danger they need to be.
Actually, it's when Fzoul became leader of the Church of Bane and the sole leader of the Zhentarim that I began to lose interest in the latter. In 3e, the Zhentarim became IMO little more than a subordinate branch of the Church of Bane - and how could it be otherwise, when the Church's leader was also the sole leader of the Zhentarim?
To truly be a fearsome threat, the Zhentarim need IMO to be their own masters, and not have to answer to a religious leader who will inevitably put his religion's interests above those of the Zhentarim. This is why I support Aldrick's idea of a ruling council for the Zhentarim - so that no single individual can twist the organization to his or her purposes.
quote:
A blow dealt to the Shade that serves as retaliation and worthy reclaiming as most important evil organisation in the realms(would love to see them wipe some of the Shade cities out of the sky).
This I can wholeheartedly support. The shades were interesting new villains when they first made their appearance, but by now they're starting to feel as omnipresent and even stale as the drow did a few years ago.
quote:
Fzoul is still chosen of Bane and heads the church with Manshoon making a complete switch to Bane(not likely though as he is atheist)and runs the organisation with Fzoul again.
Manshoon converting to Bane and serving as co-leader of the Zhentarim would IMO make the organization too Bane-inclined and too likely to once again become a subordinate branch of the Church of Bane. |
| Aldrick |
Posted - 03 Jul 2013 : 23:13:28
After reading the thoughts of others, I'm going to have to agree and say leave Zhentil Keep in ruins. Give them control over the Citadel of the Raven and Darkhold as open bases of operations.
Let them have smaller "infiltration" groups and mercenary company recruiters stationed in the various Moonsea cities, perhaps with an open office in Mulmaster.
As for who leads the group, I once again state that I would NOT like to see Fzoul or Manshoon take up the mantle, and would prefer some type of council. (This could allow for power plays WITHIN the Zhents themselves among the various members of the council.) Have the council operate similarly to the Hidden Lord's of Waterdeep. There would be some open members of the Council, who deal with the various matters of the Zhents publicly. However, the majority would be completely hidden and unnamed. I really like that suggestion by Krafus.
Members of the council would be located all over Faerun. They'd all have a magic item that would allow them to be contacted by other members of the Council at any time for the purposes of long range communication. The item would also allow them to project an illusionary image of themselves in the Council Chamber (an image which they could also speak and see through as if they were there personally), allowing them to conduct council meetings remotely. If they are in physical danger the item should allow them to teleport to the Council Chamber.
I'd never give the exact location of where the Council meets, and it's likely that most of the members of the Council wouldn't know either... though I'd hint that it was carved out inside a mountain located somewhere in the Greypeaks... which pretty much puts it out in the middle of nowhere. The only way to gain entrance would be through magic as there would be no physical entrance or exit.
I'd have an estimated twenty-five members of the council, with the option of adding more over time. Only three would be "open" and a total of eight would be detailed and known to DM's. One of the ones known would be the appointed chair of the council, basically an executive position - the person who handles the day-to-day issues facing the organization. Other individual members of the Council could be appointed with special tasks, titles, and positions of greater importance.
To become a member of the council you'd require sponsorship by at least two existing members of the council, and a majority vote by the rest.
Each member of the council would be an individual of power, wealth, and influence (and no doubt prominence as well) in a specific location or region in the Realms. They'd largely be focused on their local and regional concerns.
If they are exposed publicly, and they're hidden the consequences for that is death. The other members of the council will have them killed, so that they cannot be captured and information obtained from them. If a member of the council reveals secret information, especially one of the identities of one of the hidden members of the council, then they would be killed as well, and considered to be traitors. The open members of the council must have aspects of their memories magically wiped clean or modified so that they cannot identify other members. During meetings, they adopt false names and fake projected images of themselves to help conceal their identities. |
| Lord Bane |
Posted - 03 Jul 2013 : 23:03:15
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
When were the Zhents ever the greatest threat to Faerūn? In times past, they've been more prominent than other threats, yes, but they were far from being the greatest -- they were simply one among many.
They were one of many but among those many they had by far the biggest impact on Faerun when it came to political weight and influence combined with the means to shake things up. The only other organisation who came close were the Red Wizards of Thay but they were less "the world is ours" and more "profit and power". |
| Diffan |
Posted - 03 Jul 2013 : 22:22:41
I just want to see some NEW developments in the organization. This means building a new place of power. The ruins of Zhentil Keep would make a GREAT adventuring cite for PCs to go and explore and it should be built up as such. Have the Zhents create a new base of power to start from. Further, I want to see NEW faces and NEW threats become the organization's leaders. People who are truly ruthless and cunning and have exceptionally preverse movtives and sinister ways of going about it. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 03 Jul 2013 : 22:06:59
When were the Zhents ever the greatest threat to Faerūn? In times past, they've been more prominent than other threats, yes, but they were far from being the greatest -- they were simply one among many. |
| Lord Bane |
Posted - 03 Jul 2013 : 18:33:26
The Zhentarim in 5e?
Feel free to call me biased but i do want them to return as the greatest threat for Faerun like they were before 4e came around.
A reorganisation of the Black Network to return them completely back to what they were best in as a expansionistic greed/power driven force as either behind the curtain or outright conquest.
A return to the Church of Bane as one of it“s enforcing instruments and purging of all the cyricist influences. You may argue with me but they were the most powerful as Fzoul had them entrenched with the Church of Bane and this combination is what makes the Zhentarim the danger they need to be.
A reconstruction of Zhentil Keep in greater glory as one of the Black Networks main bases, as a message to Toril that how hard they may try to stop them, they won“t prevail.
New interesting members of the organisation that bring back a feeling of a vibrant hub of vile and cruel agendas set out to further the influence coming along with territorial expansion across Faerun.
A blow dealt to the Shade that serves as retaliation and worthy reclaiming as most important evil organisation in the realms(would love to see them wipe some of the Shade cities out of the sky).
Fzoul is still chosen of Bane and heads the church with Manshoon making a complete switch to Bane(not likely though as he is atheist)and runs the organisation with Fzoul again.
So yes, i“d love to see them return as the big baddies as i do personally feel that the Shade were only put into that role to attract some new people for 4e and they were not up to the task and only benefitted by better writing.
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| Krafus |
Posted - 03 Jul 2013 : 13:52:39
I love Markustay's ideas for spreading the Zhentarim and their influence throughout Faerun, and likewise Aldrick's idea of a ruling council for the organization. I'd also like the Chruch of Bane and the Zhentarim to be separated, or at least for the latter to no longer be a mere subordinate appendage of the former under Fzoul's leadership. I'm not sure if I'd want Manshoon to be on that hypothetical ruling council, but one thing I'd love is for, at most, only half of that council's members to be named and described, with the rest deliberately being left to DMs. |
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