| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| silverwolfer |
Posted - 09 Jun 2013 : 06:40:03
I know Mephistopheles ate some of Mask Divine Shard, but in what way did he actually benefit from it? |
| 30 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| silverwolfer |
Posted - 18 Jul 2013 : 23:09:44
Tired of undead and only the other one if it wakes up uthgar because he uses his jungles energy to fight your chosen one. |
| silverwolfer |
Posted - 18 Jul 2013 : 23:09:24
Tired of undead and only the other one if it wakes up uthgar because he uses his jungles energy to fight your chosen one. |
| Chosen of Asmodeus |
Posted - 18 Jul 2013 : 18:25:55
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
quote:
Originally posted by Arcanus
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
What Mephistopheles gained was just one-third of the essence of a godling who was even below the rank of a lesser god. Asmodeus stole the whole essence of a lesser god—a god who had affinity to magic. And magic is power.
Magic may be power but Asmodeus didn't get the portfolio of magic, all he got was essence of a lesser deity. Makes no odds what god you kill, if you don't get their portfolio you only get their divine essence.
Perhaps. But Azuth (whose essence Asmodeus took) was still beyond Kesson Rel (from whom Mephistopheles got a third of divine essence).
Among the numerous versions of Amsodeus' origins is that he was, at one point in the past, a true deity before being cast down and rising as an archdevil. 4e seemed to run with this(in the Realms, anyway. In Points of Light he was a deity all along), and the thinking was not that Asmodeus assumed Azuth's divine power, but rather that he used it to reignite his own divine spark and resume his former godhood.
quote:
I really want some God to fall in the lap of the Gnoll God and start up the blood war through an arms race rather then a spotless reset.
Yeenoghu? Why him? He's a bit of a one trick hyena. If it should happen to anyone it should happen to Demogorgon or Orcus. |
| silverwolfer |
Posted - 18 Jul 2013 : 16:42:39
I really want some God to fall in the lap of the Gnoll God and start up the blood war through an arms race rather then a spotless reset. |
| Dennis |
Posted - 18 Jul 2013 : 15:27:29
quote:
Originally posted by Arcanus
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
What Mephistopheles gained was just one-third of the essence of a godling who was even below the rank of a lesser god. Asmodeus stole the whole essence of a lesser god—a god who had affinity to magic. And magic is power.
Magic may be power but Asmodeus didn't get the portfolio of magic, all he got was essence of a lesser deity. Makes no odds what god you kill, if you don't get their portfolio you only get their divine essence.
Perhaps. But Azuth (whose essence Asmodeus took) was still beyond Kesson Rel (from whom Mephistopheles got a third of divine essence). |
| Arcanus |
Posted - 18 Jul 2013 : 15:02:15
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
What Mephistopheles gained was just one-third of the essence of a godling who was even below the rank of a lesser god. Asmodeus stole the whole essence of a lesser god—a god who had affinity to magic. And magic is power.
Magic may be power but Asmodeus didn't get the portfolio of magic, all he got was essence of a lesser deity. Makes no odds what god you kill, if you don't get their portfolio you only get their divine essence. |
| Dennis |
Posted - 18 Jul 2013 : 14:19:29
What Mephistopheles gained was just one-third of the essence of a godling who was even below the rank of a lesser god. Asmodeus stole the whole essence of a lesser god—a god who had affinity to magic. And magic is power. |
| jerrod |
Posted - 17 Jul 2013 : 22:48:59
My point was if mephisto gets enough divine power,it coupled with the powers of being an arch-devel can raise him to lesser or intermediate level.at which point he CAN stand a chance of killing asmodeus with a weapon of artifact level or epic level magic. |
| Dennis |
Posted - 16 Jul 2013 : 16:37:51
Invincibility is boring, not to mention a dead end story-wise. Gods are already boring in themselves, IMO, that is. Making them indestructible would just make them far more boring than they already are. That doesn’t mean they have to be easily defeated, which I think is not the case with Bane. As I and others pointed out regarding Bane’s “imprisonment” and agreement to the bargain, he could have reasons mortals might not understand. |
| jerrod |
Posted - 16 Jul 2013 : 00:37:47
I believe years ago there were method by which a mortal could kill a deity. Demigods could be slain with artifacts.demigods cluld slay lesser
God without artifact but intermidiates with artifacts but no chance of slaying greater.in other words they can slay gods of thier own rank without help |
| Razz |
Posted - 17 Jun 2013 : 22:50:03
This is why I stopped reading Forgotten Realms novels. They're all inconsistent and, yes it does matter to me, they never line up correctly with game mechanics. I don't want it to be exact (since rules change with each edition) but if these designers ever do stats from anything in the novels they need to do the game mechanics right. If Szass Tam had magic to bind a god like Bane, can a DM get the mechanics to that in case he wants an NPC, or even a group of PCs, to work their way to such a goal? That's just an example. |
| Arcanus |
Posted - 17 Jun 2013 : 16:51:16
Yes but sometimes no matter how much they plan or think they have, they are just plain wrong.
I may take on that sig suggestion lol. |
| Dennis |
Posted - 17 Jun 2013 : 14:28:05
That is sig-worthy.
Telamont is not infallible. But I think he always carefully, meticulously calculates his moves before he even executes them. Remember what he did to Mephistopheles? That was a great risk. The whole city was at risk. But he still proceeded with his plan, having known what he would gain and that Mephistopheles would hardly allow himself to linger in the Prime while his most hated rival plots in conquering his domain. I believe the matter on Rivalen’s (puny) ascension is of the same nature. It was risky, but it’s reasonable to expect his contingencies will protect him from whatever his insolent son throws at him. I’m not saying he can’t and will never be wrong. But past actions have shown him not to gamble for something he has no assurance of winning. (And as I mentioned, this still remains to be seen in The Godborn.) |
| Arcanus |
Posted - 17 Jun 2013 : 14:06:13
Btw, having immense power is one thing, using it effectively is another. Sometimes the smallest and weakest spell can bring down a castle wall. This applies to men, gods, archmages and devils all! |
| Arcanus |
Posted - 17 Jun 2013 : 14:01:17
I like the idea of Telamont being unsure about Rivalen's power and his ability to handle him. It makes for a more interesting plot. Both are powerful without a doubt but it's nice to see one of the most powerful and self confident archmages being kept on his toes.
Family eh? |
| Dennis |
Posted - 17 Jun 2013 : 12:42:51
quote:
Originally posted by Mirtek
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
That is exactly my point above. He would not allow his son to ascend to godhood (no matter how minor) without having the assurance that such move would never endanger his current position as the supreme ruler of Shade.
Or at least believing he has such an assurance.
He wouldn't be the first, especially not the first archmage, to finally find his hubris getting the better of him.
Thinking that his assurance would work when contemplating what might become of Rivalen and later seeing what really became of him are two different cups of tea
The excerpt laid bare his inner thoughts for us and he was anything but sure that he was still in total control.
That still remains to be seen. |
| Chosen of Asmodeus |
Posted - 16 Jun 2013 : 22:00:24
quote:
Originally posted by Lilianviaten
Silverwolfer, read his Cycle of Night trilogy: Shadowborn, Shadowstorm, and Shadowrealm. His upcoming novel, The Godborn, is going to build on those.
Dennis, if you read the Mephistopheles excerpt on Kemp's site, it becomes confusing. Kesson Rel was only a demigod (basically a rogue Chosen like Sammaster). Mephistopheles ends up with 1/3 of Kesson's power. In the excerpt, he laments that Asmodeus has become a full god, and plans to kill Drasek Riven and Rivalen Tanthul so he face Asmodeus on equal footing.
We know that Asmodeus is a Greater God these days. How can retrieving the full power of a demigod possibly put Mephistopheles on par with Asmodeus? Kemp is an excellent writer, but I feel like FR's rules about divine power aren't very clear.
Mephistopheles is the living embodiment of delusional pride- contrast to Asmodeus who is the living embodiment of perfectly justified pride.
What Mphistopheles believes he can do and what he actually can do are two very different things. |
| Mirtek |
Posted - 16 Jun 2013 : 20:41:37
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
That is exactly my point above. He would not allow his son to ascend to godhood (no matter how minor) without having the assurance that such move would never endanger his current position as the supreme ruler of Shade.
Or at least believing he has such an assurance.
He wouldn't be the first, especially not the first archmage, to finally find his hubris getting the better of him.
Thinking that his assurance would work when contemplating what might become of Rivalen and later seeing what really became of him are two different cups of tea
The excerpt laid bare his inner thoughts for us and he was anything but sure that he was still in total control |
| Dennis |
Posted - 16 Jun 2013 : 11:46:49
quote:
Originally posted by Lilianviaten
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
Sigh. Where did I say Telamont is the “biggest, baddest” being in the world? In fact, I did say he’s hardly the most powerful. And how in Bane’s arse does having logical contingencies fall under the category of being the most powerful?
Saying he doesn't need to worry about someone else becoming a deity because he's more powerful is a pretty clear statement that he is bigger and badder.
Sigh again. The being involved in the context where I said it is Rivalen and Rivalen alone. Just because Telamont need not worry about his son’s ascension to godling (which is pretty minor, by the way; Kesson Rel [from whom Rivalen stole one-third of divine essence] is even below a lesser deity) does not mean he need not to worry about every single being (quite more powerful than Rivalen) trying to ascend to godhood, because, again, he is hardly the most powerful archwizard there is. And if you cared to follow my earlier posts, I said Telamont deliberately allowed Rivalen to ascend. What kind of selfish archmage (who has spent his entire lifetime just to get and stay where he is) would do that without the assurance that it’s not going to endanger his position?
This means that he probably has knowledge of some ancient spells (or has invented some) that even a demigod should fear.
That said, Telamont probably has a number of contingencies that make him no less difficult to kill than Rivalen.
That is exactly my point above. He would not allow his son to ascend to godhood (no matter how minor) without having the assurance that such move would never endanger his current position as the supreme ruler of Shade.
He owed Shar and Rivalen for their survival during the harsh years in the Plane of Shadow. But he would not allow either to stop him from carrying out his ambition, that is, to expand the new Netheril Empire. He even once asked Rivalen if he was the right man for the job of stopping the Shadowstorm, knowing that such catastrophe was initiated by Shar. His command ran counter to the will of Shar, but he still gave it. |
| Lilianviaten |
Posted - 14 Jun 2013 : 15:53:27
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
Sigh. Where did I say Telamont is the “biggest, baddest” being in the world? In fact, I did say he’s hardly the most powerful. And how in Bane’s arse does having logical contingencies fall under the category of being the most powerful?
Saying he doesn't need to worry about someone else becoming a deity because he's more powerful is a pretty clear statement that he is bigger and badder.
Sigh again. The being involved in the context where I said it is Rivalen and Rivalen alone. Just because Telamont need not worry about his son’s ascension to godling (which is pretty minor, by the way; Kesson Rel [from whom Rivalen stole one-third of divine essence] is even below a lesser deity) does not mean he need not to worry about every single being (quite more powerful than Rivalen) trying to ascend to godhood, because, again, he is hardly the most powerful archwizard there is. And if you cared to follow my earlier posts, I said Telamont deliberately allowed Rivalen to ascend. What kind of selfish archmage (who has spent his entire lifetime just to get and stay where he is) would do that without the assurance that it’s not going to endanger his position?
I think it's more simple than that, Dennis. Shar is the goddess of loss and despair (for all intents and purposes, the embodiment of nihilism). From what I've seen, she never allows her followers to lead in any society. Some have high positions in order to maximize their ability to cause misery. However, her tenets explicitly forbid improving your lot in life, unless Shar commands it for her purposes.
In all likelihood, Telamont knows that Shar would never allow Rivalen to rule. Shar needs a strong empire of Netheril to engineer the apocalypse, and Rivalen must also direct the agents of her faith in other places. Practically, he has too many responsibilities to also run the empire well. As I recall, Telamont implied in the Twilight War trilogy that he could achieve some level of godhood, but chooses not to. This means that he probably has knowledge of some ancient spells (or has invented some) that even a demigod should fear.
That said, Telamont probably has a number of contingencies that make him no less difficult to kill than Rivalen. Even Halaster will likely be back in 5e, and his soul was shattered into thousands of pieces. |
| Dennis |
Posted - 14 Jun 2013 : 13:42:03
quote:
Originally posted by _Jarlaxle_
Yep, take the Sojourner for example. One of the most powerfull humanoid beings we ever saw but in the end he died of a sickness. A god can die too as we have seen multiple times, but not of sickness or old age and he doesn't need a bottle to hold his soul if his body gets destroyed. So there are a lot of advantages besides raw power in becoming devine.
At least if you really want to live forever, which I got the impression the Sojourner didn't want.
Vhostym had lived long enough. He was even older than some of the current greater gods. And he was tired. He just wanted a “grand exit,” thus the Rain of Fire. A being like him who destroyed dragons and planets with his own hands when he was young is someone a god would think twice to mess with.
Note that even the gods don’t (or cannot) live forever. Theirs is hardly a peaceful society where they all live and work in harmony. It’s a dog eats dog society. One false move, and a god can get subsumed with little to no hope of possible return. |
| silverwolfer |
Posted - 14 Jun 2013 : 08:03:17
*smacks Dennis with his ratttan stick * Go make your own thread and bicker |
| Dennis |
Posted - 14 Jun 2013 : 03:30:13
Glad you realized that. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 13 Jun 2013 : 22:29:26
Alright, I'm done. This is pointless. |
| Dennis |
Posted - 13 Jun 2013 : 20:07:55
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
Don’t be ridiculous either. It was never mentioned in canon that Telamont ever relied on nonmagical contingencies. You presented something that is far from what established lore indicates.
Not at all.We don't have every single thing that Telamont has ever done written down. We don't have anything at all that says Telamont has never done anything that didn't involve magic. And simple common sense would indicate that it's pure folly to not have multiple contingencies, especially for a ruler who has existed for contingencies.
Simple common sense would indicate that a being of pure magic would rely on multiple magical contingencies. Magic never ends. When a particular source of it is cut, one can tap on another if he knows how. |
| Dennis |
Posted - 13 Jun 2013 : 20:03:21
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
Wonderful. You continue to twist my words. By assurance, I mean magical contingencies. And I already said why. You said above that not having to worry about someone else becoming a godling (a very minor one, I must add) would him look as though he’s the biggest, baddest being in the world. And that’s what I countered by above statement.
That was not at all twisting your words.
And your assertion that he has no contingencies beyond being more powerful is very much as a statement that he's bigger and badder than a deity.
Your exact words: “Telamont is not the biggest, baddest dude in all the Realms.”
Again, how does being more powerful than a godling, who’s lesser than even a lesser god, make one the “biggest, baddest dude in all the Realms”? Vosthym could have easily swatted Rivalen like a fly had he been alive still. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 13 Jun 2013 : 19:47:59
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
Don’t be ridiculous either. It was never mentioned in canon that Telamont ever relied on nonmagical contingencies. You presented something that is far from what established lore indicates.
Not at all.We don't have every single thing that Telamont has ever done written down. We don't have anything at all that says Telamont has never done anything that didn't involve magic. And simple common sense would indicate that it's pure folly to not have multiple contingencies, especially for a ruler who has existed for contingencies.
So it is not ridiculous to assume he might have something other than magic up his sleeve. It's ridiculous to assume otherwise. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 13 Jun 2013 : 19:42:12
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
Wonderful. You continue to twist my words. By assurance, I mean magical contingencies. And I already said why. You said above that not having to worry about someone else becoming a godling (a very minor one, I must add) would him look as though he’s the biggest, baddest being in the world. And that’s what I countered by above statement.
That was not at all twisting your words.
And your assertion that he has no contingencies beyond being more powerful is very much as a statement that he's bigger and badder than a deity.
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
How about the obvious? By not telling Rivalen the spell (that he learned [with a price] from Mephistopheles) that would enable him to absorb the divine essence. Or by preventing him by force if Rivalen still insisted on going to the site where Cale and Riven planned to kill Kesson Rel and take his divinity. He is, after all, far more superior in might than his son pre-ascension.
Okay, so he perhaps could not have stopped it. And he was more powerful than his son was before -- which was not a point I was contesting. That still doesn't mean he remains more powerful. |
| silverwolfer |
Posted - 13 Jun 2013 : 18:58:39
Am going to an ass and say, is it really worth arguing over to this much of a fine point ? Especially when it has nothing to do with the original post? |
| Dennis |
Posted - 13 Jun 2013 : 18:14:20
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
To be blunt, it’s rather pointless to discuss with someone about something that someone barely reads anything about. (Ever wonder why I usually limit my “inputs” in elfy topics/debates?)
Just because I haven't read every single book Telamont has appeared in, it doesn't mean I can't discuss whether or not something is reasonable. And it is not reasonable to assume that an intelligent being, who has had to deal with multiple threats over a very long period of time, would not have contingencies that consist of something other than "More BOOM!" It is also not reasonable to assume that something could not possibly exist, just because it wasn't written down.
I see. So because it was not written, then it is possible that Elminster is a disfigured three-legged toad disguised as a human, Drizzt is a one-eyed hyena with three horns and manicured nails, Cale is a parasitic puss-emitting worm, and Laroch is the alter ego of Justine Bieber?
I already said the reasons why, in published fiction, Telamont has always relied on magic . . . I suppose I need not repeat myself.
Don't be ridiculous. All of those characters are discussed in canon, and your statements are in clear violation of that canon.
However, it is not stated in canon that Telamont has never and will never rely on anything other than magic. It is not canon, and it is not logical. Therefore, it is reasonable and not in violation of canon to assume Telly might have more that just magic up his sleeve.
Don’t be ridiculous either. It was never mentioned in canon that Telamont ever relied on nonmagical contingencies. You presented something that is far from what established lore indicates. |
