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Originally posted by Aldrick

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Originally posted by sleyvas

Why have living slaves? Easy, they're easier to "program" to do something complex but not necessarily repetitive. I imagine life as a slave isn't ALWAYS as bad as people envision. A lot of the repetitive and heavy lifting work is probably performed by the undead and constructs. Meanwhile, the slaves may simply perform "organizational" functions (i.e. maybe the undead haul the crops to the cart, and the slaves just load the cart such that everything's not falling down.... its still rough work, but not necessarily horrid, and something that even old slaves might be able to do). Similarly, skeletons/constructs could run machinery to make cloth, and possibly even cut cloth, but I'd highly doubt their sewing skill.

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It's not about what is easier, it's about what is economical. People don't keep slaves because they're easy, people keep slaves because they are a way to harvest cheap labor. While something like a construct would no doubt cost more upfront, the years of use you'd get out of it, as well as its productivity would simply outstrip that of a slave.

A construct is pretty much guaranteed to pay for itself. Your slave could potentially suffer a disabling injury or get sick and die. You also have to provide all the basic necessities of life for your slave, food, water, clothing, and shelter. You'd do this, not because you're a nice guy, but because you want your slave to live long enough to pay for itself and earn a surplus.

All of this is completely unnecessary for constructs. The worst thing that could happen is that it'll suffer some work related damage (which may be near impossible depending on what it's supposed to do), but this can be repaired and it'll return to full operation immediately after.

In addition to all of the above, in Thay specifically, we know that they aren't using constructs and the like in their fields on a massive scale. At least pre-Spellplague. Here is a direct quote from the Unapproachable East, pg. 159: "Slaves are costly (a young human field slave sells for about 50 gp in the markets at Eltabbar), so few commoners have the means to own them. Since slaves represent a significant investment for a small farmer or artisan, common Thayans take good care of them. Slaves consigned to the broad estates of noble Thayans face a harder existence, and those unfortunate souls sold off to the vast state-run fields or mines are treated as nothing more than beasts of burden."

So, in the end, we're left with only one good reason that things like we're discussing isn't happening on a large scale - even in a place like Thay. The answer to that is the price is too prohibitive to be economical.

I also want to point out that if we were to walk down this path where magic is used to enhance mundane life and everyday tasks, then we would be faced with a serious problem. Mostly, the spells we have access to are intended for adventuring player characters and their enemies. If we were to walk down this path, we would have to acknowledge that there would be entire libraries filled with spells that wizards have created SPECIFICALLY to automate and enhance mundane life and everyday tasks.

Due to the high number of arcane magic users in the Realms as well as the number of high level ones (oodles and oodles of them), we run head first into "Here Be Dragons" territory. As Markus points out they would likely advance far beyond where we are today with our technology, and in that sense be far superior. This is obviously not taking place in the Realms, and thus we need an explanation why... the most sensible and obvious is that it isn't economical.

In fact, I'm going to call this Aldrick's Law of Economical Magic, which plays off Arthur C Clarke's third law that states, "Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic."

Aldrick's Law of Economical Magic: "Any setting with powerful and flexible magic that is also economical enough to be accessed on a regular basis by the common man will inevitably lead to magic that makes our most advanced technology look primitive."

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Originally posted by Aldrick

I would say that the magic available in the Realms is already at a point of being advanced beyond our own science though. Even if certain things aren't commonly available, spells such as teleport put every mode of transportation on Earth to shame, to say nothing of clerical healing abilities (or resurrection abilities). I agree economics (coupled with people guarding the secrets to their workings) is a likely reason for these not being widespread. I have another possible theory though.

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Originally posted by Markustay

If the construct is the machinery, you save a step.

Why wouldn't people on a magical world have fully automated machinery? We already have tons of examples of 'talking' (sentient) devices, so why not a loom (or some-such) that you simply order to produce something? You'd still have to have other people (or constructs) feeding raw-materials into the thing, but even those jobs could be automated (creating a truly complex network of Arcano-machinery).

Like in the Sorcerer's Apprentice, you don't need something pushing the broom, when you can just program the broom itself (and get equally comical results). One of my favorite parts of Disney's Aladdin movie was the flying carpet with a personality.

Me thinks that we try to hard figuring out how people from such a world would achieve what we have... but I think they would have something VERY different. Probably something far superior. Technology isn't all that great.

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Originally posted by Aldrick
I also want to point out that if we were to walk down this path where magic is used to enhance mundane life and everyday tasks, then we would be faced with a serious problem. Mostly, the spells we have access to are intended for adventuring player characters and their enemies. If we were to walk down this path, we would have to acknowledge that there would be entire libraries filled with spells that wizards have created SPECIFICALLY to automate and enhance mundane life and everyday tasks.

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Originally posted by sleyvas

Why have living slaves? Easy, they're easier to "program" to do something complex but not necessarily repetitive. I imagine life as a slave isn't ALWAYS as bad as people envision. A lot of the repetitive and heavy lifting work is probably performed by the undead and constructs. Meanwhile, the slaves may simply perform "organizational" functions (i.e. maybe the undead haul the crops to the cart, and the slaves just load the cart such that everything's not falling down.... its still rough work, but not necessarily horrid, and something that even old slaves might be able to do). Similarly, skeletons/constructs could run machinery to make cloth, and possibly even cut cloth, but I'd highly doubt their sewing skill.

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Originally posted by Aldrick

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Originally posted by sleyvas

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Originally posted by Aldrick

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Originally posted by sleyvas

However, the real reason I'm replying is the answer given about agricultural advances, because it intrigued me. I'd say that in some areas of the realms, they've reached agricultural advances that are either equal to OR even advanced beyond our own. I stress that this is in SOME areas of the realms. For instance, outside Waterdeep in Goldenfields (think that's what the Chauntean farmland is called). I would also put Thay on this list as one of the areas that may even bypass our own skill in agriculture, due to their advancements in weather magic, use of "free" labor in the form of undead, their abilities in all forms of transmutation magics, etc.... Therefore, in those areas and immediately surrounding, we may see more urbanized societies and thereby more intellectually trained societies. Now, all that being said, in the heartlands... for the most part, I'd say that we're probably a little better than 1860's technology only through the use of magic to help push against the technological advances of our own society (cheap animated constructs would be highly useful in performing repetitive tasks). Gondsmen may also be introducing labor saving devices that would aid the average farmer. Alchemists may be introducing chemicals that might save farmers things that would be rigorous (for instance, a fluid that either slow burns or dehydrates stumps for example would aid in clearing fields), though alchemical improvements aren't my forte'.

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Yes, it's called Goldenfields, and I have to agree. Places that make extensive use of magic (divine or arcane) likely surpass even what we accomplish currently in the real world. However, I think these are exceptions rather than the rule. I don't want to say magic is extensively used in agriculture in the Realms, because we don't really see any serious proof of that being done on a massive scale.

However, I agree that places such as Goldenfields, Thay, and even Halruaa before the Spellplague likely surpass even what we achieve in the modern world. Netheril may have an operation along these lines as well. Although, once again, I think it's important to note that we don't see anything like this done on a massive scale.

One of the reasons that we likely don't see it done on a massive scale is simply economics. In most cases it could be cost prohibitive to do this, and in the places that it occurs it is likely heavily subsidized. The arcane research, the regents, and the time of someone trained in the Art to cast the spells doesn't come cheap. Without subsidizing the magical agriculture something as minor as a loaf of bread could inevitably cost an entire days wages or more for the average unskilled worker.

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I'm glad you mentioned the subsidizing costs. One of the things I always thought was a misrepresentation of Thay was that they were all scheming and conniving against their masters. I submit that many of them were simply learning and loyal to their country. They didn't get involved with politics and they simply focused on advancing "life-giving" concerns through select use of necromancy for slave labor, weather magic to enhance crops, animation of constructs, etc...

However, I disagree that these costs would be prohibitive. Our world pays recurring costs for our equipment in the form of petroleum products. Our soil is enhanced further to grow better crops with petroleum products. If a mage creates a "farming construct" or sends a skeleton crew out to till a field, said constructs work without fuel needs. In both instances (magical and technological) the object doing the work does eventually break down, but repairing a tractor would tend to be a lot more effort than say casting a repair construct spell or a cause light wounds spell.

Now, is this widespread? I agree here. Its not widespread in the realms. I would expect to see it in certain areas however, and much like in our world, the resources are somewhat constrained (i.e. Thay gets good weather, so Unther suffers)

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The issue with cost, I think, has less to do with what is required to cast the spell. It has more to do with paying the wizard to cast it. It's not as if they'll work for free.

Personally, I'd treat all this as being outside of the D&D rules as I don't think it models this very well. The rules are designed with PC Adventurer's in mind. This applies to the entire system, but especially when it comes to prices. My concern is that if we were to go down that route we'd quickly begin modifying the Realms to look like something else entirely (or struggling to explain why it doesn't). At first, I think we'd come to something similar to Eberron, but then we'd quickly surpass even that due to the sheer number of arcane magic users in the Realms as well as their higher levels.

For example: We'd completely eliminate unskilled workers to be replaced by semi-intelligent constructs. We'd push the Realms toward an industrial revolution where factories are populated by said constructs instead of people, etc. Keeping in mind, of course, that they'd last pretty much forever, work 24/7, never get tired, and do it for free - you're pretty much guaranteed to earn back your investment on anything that can be mass produced. Thay would be like modern-day China when it comes to manufacturing.

Further, why would Thay deal with slaves at all unless to magically experiment upon them? Using undead and constructs would be much more cost effective. You don't have to worry about them rebelling, they don't require the level of maintenance you'd have to care for a slave (food, water, clothing, shelter, overseers), they can work in conditions that slaves can't, etc. Hell, with undead and constructs - they're perfect for mining operations which could run 24/7 without a pause.

Things like this obviously aren't the case, and the easiest way to explain why it isn't is just to say it'd be cost prohibitive and completely outside the scope of the rules.

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Originally posted by sleyvas

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Originally posted by Aldrick

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Originally posted by sleyvas

However, the real reason I'm replying is the answer given about agricultural advances, because it intrigued me. I'd say that in some areas of the realms, they've reached agricultural advances that are either equal to OR even advanced beyond our own. I stress that this is in SOME areas of the realms. For instance, outside Waterdeep in Goldenfields (think that's what the Chauntean farmland is called). I would also put Thay on this list as one of the areas that may even bypass our own skill in agriculture, due to their advancements in weather magic, use of "free" labor in the form of undead, their abilities in all forms of transmutation magics, etc.... Therefore, in those areas and immediately surrounding, we may see more urbanized societies and thereby more intellectually trained societies. Now, all that being said, in the heartlands... for the most part, I'd say that we're probably a little better than 1860's technology only through the use of magic to help push against the technological advances of our own society (cheap animated constructs would be highly useful in performing repetitive tasks). Gondsmen may also be introducing labor saving devices that would aid the average farmer. Alchemists may be introducing chemicals that might save farmers things that would be rigorous (for instance, a fluid that either slow burns or dehydrates stumps for example would aid in clearing fields), though alchemical improvements aren't my forte'.

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Yes, it's called Goldenfields, and I have to agree. Places that make extensive use of magic (divine or arcane) likely surpass even what we accomplish currently in the real world. However, I think these are exceptions rather than the rule. I don't want to say magic is extensively used in agriculture in the Realms, because we don't really see any serious proof of that being done on a massive scale.

However, I agree that places such as Goldenfields, Thay, and even Halruaa before the Spellplague likely surpass even what we achieve in the modern world. Netheril may have an operation along these lines as well. Although, once again, I think it's important to note that we don't see anything like this done on a massive scale.

One of the reasons that we likely don't see it done on a massive scale is simply economics. In most cases it could be cost prohibitive to do this, and in the places that it occurs it is likely heavily subsidized. The arcane research, the regents, and the time of someone trained in the Art to cast the spells doesn't come cheap. Without subsidizing the magical agriculture something as minor as a loaf of bread could inevitably cost an entire days wages or more for the average unskilled worker.

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I'm glad you mentioned the subsidizing costs. One of the things I always thought was a misrepresentation of Thay was that they were all scheming and conniving against their masters. I submit that many of them were simply learning and loyal to their country. They didn't get involved with politics and they simply focused on advancing "life-giving" concerns through select use of necromancy for slave labor, weather magic to enhance crops, animation of constructs, etc...

However, I disagree that these costs would be prohibitive. Our world pays recurring costs for our equipment in the form of petroleum products. Our soil is enhanced further to grow better crops with petroleum products. If a mage creates a "farming construct" or sends a skeleton crew out to till a field, said constructs work without fuel needs. In both instances (magical and technological) the object doing the work does eventually break down, but repairing a tractor would tend to be a lot more effort than say casting a repair construct spell or a cause light wounds spell.

Now, is this widespread? I agree here. Its not widespread in the realms. I would expect to see it in certain areas however, and much like in our world, the resources are somewhat constrained (i.e. Thay gets good weather, so Unther suffers)

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Originally posted by Aryalómë

I actually think that keeping the pre-conceived prejudices of the other races/species helps to create that feeling of 'otherness' that has been lacking in the Realms for a long time.

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Originally posted by Aldrick

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Originally posted by sleyvas

However, the real reason I'm replying is the answer given about agricultural advances, because it intrigued me. I'd say that in some areas of the realms, they've reached agricultural advances that are either equal to OR even advanced beyond our own. I stress that this is in SOME areas of the realms. For instance, outside Waterdeep in Goldenfields (think that's what the Chauntean farmland is called). I would also put Thay on this list as one of the areas that may even bypass our own skill in agriculture, due to their advancements in weather magic, use of "free" labor in the form of undead, their abilities in all forms of transmutation magics, etc.... Therefore, in those areas and immediately surrounding, we may see more urbanized societies and thereby more intellectually trained societies. Now, all that being said, in the heartlands... for the most part, I'd say that we're probably a little better than 1860's technology only through the use of magic to help push against the technological advances of our own society (cheap animated constructs would be highly useful in performing repetitive tasks). Gondsmen may also be introducing labor saving devices that would aid the average farmer. Alchemists may be introducing chemicals that might save farmers things that would be rigorous (for instance, a fluid that either slow burns or dehydrates stumps for example would aid in clearing fields), though alchemical improvements aren't my forte'.

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Yes, it's called Goldenfields, and I have to agree. Places that make extensive use of magic (divine or arcane) likely surpass even what we accomplish currently in the real world. However, I think these are exceptions rather than the rule. I don't want to say magic is extensively used in agriculture in the Realms, because we don't really see any serious proof of that being done on a massive scale.

However, I agree that places such as Goldenfields, Thay, and even Halruaa before the Spellplague likely surpass even what we achieve in the modern world. Netheril may have an operation along these lines as well. Although, once again, I think it's important to note that we don't see anything like this done on a massive scale.

One of the reasons that we likely don't see it done on a massive scale is simply economics. In most cases it could be cost prohibitive to do this, and in the places that it occurs it is likely heavily subsidized. The arcane research, the regents, and the time of someone trained in the Art to cast the spells doesn't come cheap. Without subsidizing the magical agriculture something as minor as a loaf of bread could inevitably cost an entire days wages or more for the average unskilled worker.

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Originally posted by sleyvas

However, the real reason I'm replying is the answer given about agricultural advances, because it intrigued me. I'd say that in some areas of the realms, they've reached agricultural advances that are either equal to OR even advanced beyond our own. I stress that this is in SOME areas of the realms. For instance, outside Waterdeep in Goldenfields (think that's what the Chauntean farmland is called). I would also put Thay on this list as one of the areas that may even bypass our own skill in agriculture, due to their advancements in weather magic, use of "free" labor in the form of undead, their abilities in all forms of transmutation magics, etc.... Therefore, in those areas and immediately surrounding, we may see more urbanized societies and thereby more intellectually trained societies. Now, all that being said, in the heartlands... for the most part, I'd say that we're probably a little better than 1860's technology only through the use of magic to help push against the technological advances of our own society (cheap animated constructs would be highly useful in performing repetitive tasks). Gondsmen may also be introducing labor saving devices that would aid the average farmer. Alchemists may be introducing chemicals that might save farmers things that would be rigorous (for instance, a fluid that either slow burns or dehydrates stumps for example would aid in clearing fields), though alchemical improvements aren't my forte'.

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"The Mulan view members of other human ethnic groups with disdain. The Turami minorities of Mulhorand, Unther, Threskel, and Chessenta are generally tolerated, (except in Unther, where they are almost universally despised), but they are always considered members of the lower class. North of the Wizards’ Reach, the Rashemi form the bulk of the lower class of Thay.

...

The Mulan get along with the gold dwarves of the Great Rift, thanks to centuries of trade, and are inclined to view all the Stout Folk in similar light, although arctic dwarves and wild dwarves might prove an exception. Rock gnomes are largely unknown, so the Mulan view them as little dwarves. Halflings are similarly rare, as the largest nearby concentration of the hin lies in far-off Luiren, and are generally treated much like dwarves as well. Elves and half-elves are almost unknown to the Mulan and the subject of great superstition, stemming in large part from the frustrations Unther’s armies experienced long ago while attempting to subjugate the Yuirwood. In Mulhorand and Unther, the Fair Folk are seen as wizards by the bureaucracy of priests, and thus are regarded with the same combination of fear and loathing as Red Wizards of Thay.

The Mulan despise half-orcs, a legacy of the Orcgate Wars handed down for centuries.

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Of the nonhuman civilized races, planetouched, particularly aasimar, are the only race looked up to by the Mulan.

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Tieflings engender fear rather than reverence...

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Genasai are scarce, although fire genasi of Mulan descent are treated as full-blooded Mulan in Thay and welcomed into the School of Evocation."

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Through most of history, the human population has lived a rural lifestyle, dependent on agriculture and hunting for survival. In 1800, only 3 percent of the world's population lived in urban areas. By 1900, almost 14 percent were urbanites, although only 12 cities had 1 million or more inhabitants. In 1950, 30 percent of the world's population resided in urban centers. The number of cities with over 1 million people had grown to 83.

The world has experienced unprecedented urban growth in recent decades. In 2008, for the first time, the world's population was evenly split between urban and rural areas. There were more than 400 cities over 1 million and 19 over 10 million. More developed nations were about 74 percent urban, while 44 percent of residents of less developed countries lived in urban areas. However, urbanization is occurring rapidly in many less developed countries. It is expected that 70 percent of the world population will be urban by 2050, and that most urban growth will occur in less developed countries.

What is an urban area? An urban area may be defined by the number of residents, the population density, the percent of people not dependent upon agriculture, or the provision of such public utilities and services as electricity and education.

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Originally posted by Aldrick

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Originally posted by Tyrant

I believe Aldrick's "99.9%" number is wildely innacurate. We have already ruled out a couple major population centers like Waterdeep and Silverymoon. I would add Hlondeth to that list given that the Yuan Ti openly rule the city. I would add Thay (though they are very racist about human races) as they incorporate Orcs and I believe Gnolls in their military and at least some of them openly traffic with demons and undead. Narfell likely has some patches of Tieflings who are allowed to live. In Damara (I think) there is that city populated primarily with Half Orcs. The Silver Marches is now grudgingly accepting an entire Orc Kingdom in their midst. Then for every region or city that accepts, or is populated by, demi-humans and non humans there have to be neighboring cities/nations that are accepting of that idea because they don't randomly launch crusades against the "monsters" and in all likelyhood trade with them. And this is pre spellplague, things get much more interesting on this front after the spellplague. Racism and being wary of them, sure. Kill on site, it can't be as common as some think.

Edit: I guess I am trying to say that if these races are playable in the Realms then there has to be somewhere that they are accepted. Otherwise, where do they come from? And if one place accepts them, their neighbors likely at least learn to live with them due to trade. Over time, unless a race is outright evil (like the Drow typically are), I think wide areas would at least learn to not try to kill them on sight. Be not so nice towards them and harbor suspicions about them, sure. Hate and fear them for no real reason, I just don't see it. That attitude wouldn't be able to survive in parts of the Realms because it would lead to isolation while those that are more tolerant thrive by dealing with new (possibly exclusive) customers who might also traffic in rare goods (maybe Orc made pottery is all the rage in Cormyr this season). In a world with so many intelligent species (all of which seem to have the ability and the desire to mate with humans) there would have to be a fair level of tolerance or there would be open, rampant warfare across the continent.

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I'm not sure how exactly you're disagreeing with me. I never said there weren't places that certain races couldn't find acceptance, or even tolerance. Thesk, for example, is rather tolerant toward Orcs and Half-Orcs and they are members of their culture and society. However, just because Thesk is more open minded toward Orcs and Half-Orcs doesn't also mean it is open minded toward other races.

I was making several points, and drawing directly from Races of Faerun to back it up. My points were the following.

1. Racial and Cultural bigotry is common in the Forgotten Realms. Bigotry goes beyond simply killing someone on site, it can take on obvious as well as subtle forms.

2. The bulk of the people of Faerun may have never even heard of some of the more exotic races, and even some of the standard core races would be unusual to see. It is important to keep in mind that the overwhelming majority of people live in very rural areas. It takes anywhere from ten to twenty individuals to produce enough food for one person living in the city. As a result, it's important to keep in mind that while urban centers may be more open minded (because they have greater exposure to the more exotic races), the rural areas wouldn't really reflect that.

In most cases what is written in the Races of Faerun is the default treatment for those races unless there is a reason for it to be otherwise.

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Originally posted by Tyrant

I believe Aldrick's "99.9%" number is wildely innacurate. We have already ruled out a couple major population centers like Waterdeep and Silverymoon. I would add Hlondeth to that list given that the Yuan Ti openly rule the city. I would add Thay (though they are very racist about human races) as they incorporate Orcs and I believe Gnolls in their military and at least some of them openly traffic with demons and undead. Narfell likely has some patches of Tieflings who are allowed to live. In Damara (I think) there is that city populated primarily with Half Orcs. The Silver Marches is now grudgingly accepting an entire Orc Kingdom in their midst. Then for every region or city that accepts, or is populated by, demi-humans and non humans there have to be neighboring cities/nations that are accepting of that idea because they don't randomly launch crusades against the "monsters" and in all likelyhood trade with them. And this is pre spellplague, things get much more interesting on this front after the spellplague. Racism and being wary of them, sure. Kill on site, it can't be as common as some think.

Edit: I guess I am trying to say that if these races are playable in the Realms then there has to be somewhere that they are accepted. Otherwise, where do they come from? And if one place accepts them, their neighbors likely at least learn to live with them due to trade. Over time, unless a race is outright evil (like the Drow typically are), I think wide areas would at least learn to not try to kill them on sight. Be not so nice towards them and harbor suspicions about them, sure. Hate and fear them for no real reason, I just don't see it. That attitude wouldn't be able to survive in parts of the Realms because it would lead to isolation while those that are more tolerant thrive by dealing with new (possibly exclusive) customers who might also traffic in rare goods (maybe Orc made pottery is all the rage in Cormyr this season). In a world with so many intelligent species (all of which seem to have the ability and the desire to mate with humans) there would have to be a fair level of tolerance or there would be open, rampant warfare across the continent.

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Originally posted by Lord Bane

One simple solution, get the paladin to arrest the rogue for slaughter and hand him over to the authorities of the Purple Dragons.
If one would pull such a thing off and i would DM it, i would make sure he quickly feels the effects of his doings that should force him to think things through or end up in chains or dead.

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Originally posted by Jeremy Grenemyer


In a recent campaign I had one player (old school 1E/2E type) who ran a Chaotic Good rogue/fighter/ranger that started out many an encounter by asking the Paladin in our group, "Is he/it/that evil?"

If he got a yes (when the Paladin deigned to respond) the old school player elected not to care about plot or story (i.e. lets keep one alive for questioning) or worry over whether the evil guy's minions were also evil--they were all as equally soon to be dead as the main evil bad guy.

This struck me as overly bloodthirsty--or at least not always Chaotic Good--but when I reflected on how I do things when I'm a player and not a DM, my style isn't too far removed from how the old school player ran his character.

After a few encounters where I had the players battle villagers pressed into service by evil nobles of Cormyr, that player saw that there was value in keeping NPCs alive, but I made sure to run more encounters with monsters and humanoid foes that were either clearly evil or clearly committed to the bag guy's cause (e.g. mercenary types, lesser clerics, etc.) so my player could do what we're all eager to do: roll the dice.

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Originally posted by Chosen of Asmodeus

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Originally posted by Markustay

Yes, what began in 4e as a reduction in alignments will end in 5e with everyone being Neutral Greedy.

You don't rescue the Princess from the dragon anymore, you slay the dragon, take its horde, and then you take the Princess' crown and anything else of value she has on and sell her to the first slaver you come across.

YAY! for heroes.

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No, these days you come to find out that the princess was a petty tyrant who rules her kingdom with all the generosity and maturity one can expect from a spoiled rich entitled teenager, and the dragon was trying to spare the population the suffering that she would inflict on them should she come to power.

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Originally posted by Chosen of Asmodeus

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Originally posted by Markustay

Yes, what began in 4e as a reduction in alignments will end in 5e with everyone being Neutral Greedy.

You don't rescue the Princess from the dragon anymore, you slay the dragon, take its horde, and then you take the Princess' crown and anything else of value she has on and sell her to the first slaver you come across.

YAY! for heroes.

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No, these days you come to find out that the princess was a petty tyrant who rules her kingdom with all the generosity and maturity one can expect from a spoiled rich entitled teenager, and the dragon was trying to spare the population the suffering that she would inflict on them should she come to power.

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Originally posted by Markustay

Yes, what began in 4e as a reduction in alignments will end in 5e with everyone being Neutral Greedy.

You don't rescue the Princess from the dragon anymore, you slay the dragon, take its horde, and then you take the Princess' crown and anything else of value she has on and sell her to the first slaver you come across.

YAY! for heroes.

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No, but I would expect your character to.

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I would angst over fictional people, and do XD

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Originally posted by Venger

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Well, it's still a question of simplicity.

How do you know they're rapists? How do you know they're murderers? Does the DM cast them as mustache twirling stereotypes? Did someone tell you they were murdering rapists? Why do you believe the person who told you that? Was it a potentially corrupt authority figure using you as a tool to eradicate the rebellious freedom fighters who're throwing a wrench into his small scale tyranny? If they are evil, why kill them as a first resort? Why not try and arrest them to face justice, killing them only when they force your hand?

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If I'm fireballing them to death I pretty much already know they're bad guys.

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I have no problem with the use of lethal force when necessary and I'm generally more liberal when it comes to what qualifies as "necessary". But I know people who have, in real life, killed other people and have had it ruled justifiable homicide. Even still, it's something that haunts them. It's something they carry with them every day for the rest of their life. They may not be angsting about it constantly, but it isn't something that is casual.

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You expect me to angst over the fictional people I kill in an RPG?

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That's pretty circular logic. "Of course I'll kill them, they're bad guys." "But how do you know?" "Well, if I'm killing them of course they're bad."

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Originally posted by Venger

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Well, it's still a question of simplicity.

How do you know they're rapists? How do you know they're murderers? Does the DM cast them as mustache twirling stereotypes? Did someone tell you they were murdering rapists? Why do you believe the person who told you that? Was it a potentially corrupt authority figure using you as a tool to eradicate the rebellious freedom fighters who're throwing a wrench into his small scale tyranny? If they are evil, why kill them as a first resort? Why not try and arrest them to face justice, killing them only when they force your hand?

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If I'm fireballing them to death I pretty much already know they're bad guys.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Chosen of Asmodeus

I have no problem with characters in universe having racist attitudes towards orcs/half-orcs, tieflings, elves, dwarves, whatever. That's fine. I include that in my own home brew, despite favoring (half)orcs and tieflings over other races personally.

What I have a problem with is the player attitude of "It's ugly, kill it" "It's not human, kill it." "It's different, kill it." I hate that attitude in players, I hate that attitude in writers. It's moral simplicity taken to an offensive level.

And while I'm fine with the in-universe racism playing a part, I do have issues with writers making it perfectly justified. Playing orcs and goblinoids up as stupid marauding brutes is boring and is done to give the heroes something they can kill without tackling the moral complexity that comes with taking a life, which is something else I find offensive. Killing is never something that should be done lightly, at least not by heroes. It is sometimes, indeed, often justified. But it should never be justified just because "they're orcs", or "they're goblins" or "they're monsters". Because something isn't like us, because it is "the other", is not sufficient reason to kill it with moral impunity. Killing an orc should have no more or less moral weight than killing a dwarf or an elf; a life is a life.

These are my issues.

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