| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Dennis |
Posted - 23 Mar 2013 : 13:06:14
This topic is inspired by Richard’s essay Search For Truth, Justice, American Way, 2013 Style .
I'm gay, and I'm definitely not buying any Card novels. Protests and the like bore me, so you wouldn't see me actively joining those “concerned” citizens in the streets. But they have my (silent) support. You see, ‘tis one of the reasons I sometimes wish to know as little about an author as possible, because half the time, I discover something about them that either makes me hate them or completely ignore them.
This got me thinking too:
quote:
So I think the attempt to separate Mr. Card from DC is both ethical and understandable. But it may also be harsh, especially if, as seems likely, the story he would write would have nothing to do with gay rights, pro or con.
Harsh, maybe. But would we rather wait till Card makes a solid foothold on DC with his stories and eventually does as he pleases with his future projects, including (Nine Hells forbid) gay bashing? What’s worse, he’s writing about the only DC character I care about.
Now, what if an author like Card who’s vocal about his stand against same-sex relationship gets invited by WotC to write a Realms novel? Will his personal view matter to you? Or will it not, so long as it does not permeate his writing (e.g. As part of a subplot, he writes about a knight falling in love with his male friend, a fellow knight who has been led astray from their chosen path, and then for some reason they are both struck by lightning)? |
| 30 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| MrHedgehog |
Posted - 05 Apr 2013 : 19:17:10
In Canada the courts legalized gay marriages in all but a province (my province - the premier threatened to use some clause to get out of it. Alberta has the lowest public support for gay rights, gay marriage, etc. at 45% or so.) and two territories. But then the federal government (House of Commons) legalized it nationwide (essentially just forcing it on my province). The current Prime Minister (of the Conservative Party) said he would try to abolish it but once he came to power he hasn't actually done anything about it. Just recently a bill protecting sexual minorities (transgendered, transexual, etc. ) Many of those who opposed it just thought it was redundant because people were protected from discrimination based on their sex. A Member of Parliament from my city said it would allow men to dress as women and rape women though, he's a special person.
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| Old Man Harpell |
Posted - 05 Apr 2013 : 05:48:35
quote:
Originally posted by MrHedgehog
Courts decide the constitutionality of Gay Marriage. Your vote doesn't matter sleyvas. Democracy is not mob rule.
Courts may decide the constitutionality of gay marriage. It all depends on the arguments used, evidence presented, and the interpretations of the Constitution used by the individual justices. I actually expect the Supreme Court to punt on the entire affair, and send it back to the lower courts.
There's a joke circulating in Washington State: "You know how the Bible says if a man lies with another man, he is to be stoned? We've just enacted gay marriage and the legalization of marijuana. Coincidence? I think not."  |
| MrHedgehog |
Posted - 05 Apr 2013 : 01:20:53
Courts decide the constitutionality of Gay Marriage. Your vote doesn't matter sleyvas. Democracy is not mob rule. |
| Thauranil |
Posted - 04 Apr 2013 : 13:33:59
I agree with Erik, if they have the right to propagate their hate filled views then we certainly have the right to oppose said views.
All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing. |
| Erik Scott de Bie |
Posted - 04 Apr 2013 : 06:23:49
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
yep, Markustay and I think alike again. People going after people's livelihood by contacting their boss in an organized effort to get them fired for supporting something they believe in is wrong. It wasn't right when they black-listed people as communists and made them lose their jobs during McCarthy's time either. The more I hear of it, the more likely I am to vote no on not just gay marriage, but pretty much any similar complaint because I don't want to help any group that stoops so low (stress here on the word any... yep, if some KKK people did it, I'd think just as low of them... think on that for a second and how it reflects this cause in my eyes).
There is no call for a black-list. There is no call for Card being "fired" from a job he was never "hired" for. He's a freelance writer offered the chance to write Superman. He could be doing it for a million dollars an issue or for free--that's irrelevant.
To follow your analogy, the people you are berating are not McCarthy. They are the ones STANDING UP to McCarthy. It's seriously like you're arguing that "people should never object to what someone in the media says, no matter how bigoted, racist, or hate-filled." Following this logic, the Germans should never have spoken out against Hitler, the Russians against Stalin, and so on and so forth, because those people were entitled to their opinions and calling for them to be removed from office is just wrong.
Writers and artists are public figures. Particularly if they put themselves out there are opponents or proponents of an a particular issue. What they say has consequences. Card has every right to say whatever he wants. His audience has every right to be offended by what he says and call for him not to ruin something they enjoy. Seriously.
Also, why would you see this issue as a reason to vote AGAINST equality? The gay marriage movement and the movement against Card are not the same movement. While I doubt anyone who supports same-sex marriage would be particularly happy about Card writing Superman, a lot of them simply don't care. To them, marriage equality is more important. This is like saying "Well, Bill Clinton committed adultery, so I'm going to vote against Al Gore, because they're both democrats."
Also, hundreds of thousands of people doing one thing you disagree with makes you vote against civil rights for tens of millions of people? I . . . I don't really know what to say to that. 
Cheers |
| The Sage |
Posted - 04 Apr 2013 : 01:53:51
quote:
Originally posted by Mapolq
Well, I think the crucial point is: Is Mr. Card actually using the proceedings of his work and/or his position as a respected person in some media to support and fuel violence against homosexuals? How much, and in what ways, exactly?
I wouldn't think so. DC Comics usually has pretty stringent rules on this kind of thing. |
| Mapolq |
Posted - 03 Apr 2013 : 22:04:06
Well, I think the crucial point is: Is Mr. Card actually using the proceedings of his work and/or his position as a respected person in some media to support and fuel violence against homosexuals? How much, and in what ways, exactly?
Clearly, a boycott would be a reasonable reaction in many stances. I won't say which, that is, in the end, up to each individual. In other stances, it would probably be an overreaction. I honestly don't know enough to make a decision, since I don't need to. I don't think I ever bought a DC comic, and I know little about LGBT rights in America, so I'm hardly anybody in this arena. Those who are, though, probably ought to do some research and decide for themselves.
I don't want to ridicule the fight of LGBT groups. They are, by and large, very reasonable in their demands. But it is apparent that some people are trying to make gay marriage sound like the end-all be-all of civil rights equality. The truth is the government plays a wretched game with our "rights" all the time - that's true in Brazil as it is in America. Hells, single people don't have the same rights as married people do. Isn't that the whole point of pressing for marriage equality? It kinda seems to discriminate against single people to me, though. So now if you're a proponent of man-and-woman civil marriage only, you're a bigot. If you're a proponent of man-and-woman, woman-and-woman, man-and-man marriage, then you're a champion of equality. What about polygamous marriages (oh, that's taboo!)? What about people who are NOT married, as I pointed out? Should we be asking the State to put a stamp of approval on our relationships anyway? The whole thing is a damn lobbying game, so excuse me if I don't think the slightly-worse side should really be attracting so much flak.
On the other hand, violence against homosexuals is a real problem (much more than whether the government calls their union a marriage or not). I'd be much more concerned about an author's stance on that matter (if I had any reason to buy one of his works anyway). |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 03 Apr 2013 : 21:00:19
quote:
Originally posted by The Red Walker
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
DD, I think there's a misunderstanding here. No one is saying Card shouldn't write (though I'm sure there are some people who think that), and no one is attacking him personally. Only that people are saying they will not buy or support Card writing a Superman story. I see nothing morally contradictory here, and I don't think that makes those people anything like Card himself.
Actually... it makes them much worse. 
What if you said something that a lot of people didn't agree with, and that group decided to put pressure on the company you work for to fire you? Thats just what they are doing. They are targeting someone who doesn't agree with their own views and causing him to loose his livelihood, one of the worse things you you could do to a person. Its not just an attack against him (because of his beliefs), its an attack against his family.
When people who "only agree with ME" are the only folks allowed to write in this country, its time for me to find another country. To quote a famous man, "I may not agree with what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it".
Or in this case, THINK IT. This 'politically correct' BS has got to stop... its anti-American, IMHO. What next? We start hauling away those people who bad-mouth the establishment? You don't have to agree with an idiot to defend his right to BE an idiot.
that was very well said, but be careful....you will now be called out as a Card supporter.
yep, Markustay and I think alike again. People going after people's livelihood by contacting their boss in an organized effort to get them fired for supporting something they believe in is wrong. It wasn't right when they black-listed people as communists and made them lose their jobs during McCarthy's time either. The more I hear of it, the more likely I am to vote no on not just gay marriage, but pretty much any similar complaint because I don't want to help any group that stoops so low (stress here on the word any... yep, if some KKK people did it, I'd think just as low of them... think on that for a second and how it reflects this cause in my eyes). |
| Erik Scott de Bie |
Posted - 03 Apr 2013 : 18:00:35
quote:
Originally posted by Old Man Harpell
To inject something here, there are some who would not appreciate the comparison of the status of gays to those of women and minorities. While I personally do believe that being born gay is a function of nature, there are many who do not. Women and minorities are obviously what they are as a result of biology and genetics.
And while you and I may say the same about those in the gay community, there is enough resistance to the idea among many parties, not all of them what you'd call 'lunatic fringe', to keep that particular question ('biology versus choice') fueled for quite some time (and quite often, among some members of these obviously biologically diverse communities). We may say that the debate is over, but many others don't see it that way at all.
Well, there are many people who don't believe in evolution or climate change or the Flying Spaghetti Monster. And while they're perfectly welcome and allowed to believe that, it's irrelevant as regards the subject at hand. Whether or not being gay is a choice or biology, gay people are still endowed with certain inalienable rights and are just as worthy of respect and equal protection under the law as anyone else.
And I see no reason not to discuss the push for LGBT rights as parallel to the push for civil rights for any minority group, because that's what it is. I see people as people, and we should all see them that way.
quote:
I was never enamored with Superman to start with. I always found him to be...well...boring. Not even the Card controversy could change that, I'm afraid.
You know, I've found JMS's recent run on Superman to be an interesting reinvention of the character, one that does not fall prey to the same things that at times has made Supes kind of a boring character to read.
Though when it comes to DC, I prefer Wonder Woman and Batman, honestly.
quote:
And I apologize for again extending the discussion. I live with people who are prone to beating a dead horse, it's likely rubbed off on me.
I know the feeling. 
quote:
On a side note, Erik, I did not realize you were a panelist at Norwescon until well after the time had passed. That's what I get for not having my pocket program handy.
Alas! Well, there's always next year. Or GenCon.
Cheers |
| Old Man Harpell |
Posted - 01 Apr 2013 : 22:17:11
quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
Is standing up to racism or sexism "politically correct"? Do you honestly think that the people supporting the Civil Rights or Women's Suffrage movements did so just to look like nice people or win karma points?
This is about justice. This is about equality.
The LGBT community and its allies took a stand on this point, and I think it's a powerful one. Superman represents truth, justice, and the American way. Card's vitriol and expressed intentions contradict that on every level.
Cheers
To inject something here, there are some who would not appreciate the comparison of the status of gays to those of women and minorities. While I personally do believe that being born gay is a function of nature, there are many who do not. Women and minorities are obviously what they are as a result of biology and genetics.
And while you and I may say the same about those in the gay community, there is enough resistance to the idea among many parties, not all of them what you'd call 'lunatic fringe', to keep that particular question ('biology versus choice') fueled for quite some time (and quite often, among some members of these obviously biologically diverse communities). We may say that the debate is over, but many others don't see it that way at all.
I was never enamored with Superman to start with. I always found him to be...well...boring. Not even the Card controversy could change that, I'm afraid.
And I apologize for again extending the discussion. I live with people who are prone to beating a dead horse, it's likely rubbed off on me.
On a side note, Erik, I did not realize you were a panelist at Norwescon until well after the time had passed. That's what I get for not having my pocket program handy. |
| MrHedgehog |
Posted - 01 Apr 2013 : 22:00:12
Very few people are LGBT (3%?) I am pretty sure it is because the majority of the population don't want insane bigots writing about their favourite hero. |
| Erik Scott de Bie |
Posted - 01 Apr 2013 : 19:25:12
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
DD, I think there's a misunderstanding here. No one is saying Card shouldn't write (though I'm sure there are some people who think that), and no one is attacking him personally. Only that people are saying they will not buy or support Card writing a Superman story. I see nothing morally contradictory here, and I don't think that makes those people anything like Card himself.
Actually... it makes them much worse.
What if you said something that a lot of people didn't agree with, and that group decided to put pressure on the company you work for to fire you? Thats just what they are doing. They are targeting someone who doesn't agree with their own views and causing him to loose his livelihood, one of the worse things you you could do to a person. Its not just an attack against him (because of his beliefs), its an attack against his family.
When people who "only agree with ME" are the only folks allowed to write in this country, its time for me to find another country. To quote a famous man, "I may not agree with what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it".
Or in this case, THINK IT. This 'politically correct' BS has got to stop... its anti-American, IMHO. What next? We start hauling away those people who bad-mouth the establishment? You don't have to agree with an idiot to defend his right to BE an idiot.
This is not to put MT on the spot, as I think we all know I like and respect him. And I don't really want to clog up this thread with more discussion of the Card situation, but a couple points need to be clarified:
*What if you said something that a lot of people didn't agree with, and that group decided to put pressure on the company you work for to fire you? Thats just what they are doing.*
By analogy, if I said I hate women, firmly believe they should be considered second-class citizens without the rights that I enjoy as a man, forwarded over 20% of my income to organizations that actively seek to strip them of their rights, and scream about waging war on any government that tries to acknowledge women, then announced I was being tapped to write a story about the Seven Sisters or Wonder Woman or some other strong female character, then yes, I'd fully expect my audience to pressure the company to shelve that piece.
It isn't what Card says. It's what he DOES. What he has chosen to represent.
*They are targeting someone who doesn't agree with their own views and causing him to loose his livelihood, one of the worse things you you could do to a person. Its not just an attack against him (because of his beliefs), its an attack against his family.*
Again, it's not about his views or beliefs; it's about his actions. It's what he has chosen to stand for--the opposite of the hope and justice Superman represents to a huge number of people.
It'd be like finding the most rabidly anti-Drizzt writer (one who disagrees with everything Drizzt stands for) to write a Drizzt novel. Not only would it be an insult to the creator of the character (RAS) and to the thousands of Drizzt fans out there, but it would infect the character with this extremely toxic association.
And if one thinks Card *needs* this job to support his family, then one is confused about what it means to be a successful full-time author with as much clout as Card has.
*When people who "only agree with ME" are the only folks allowed to write in this country, its time for me to find another country.*
For the third time, it isn't about "agreeing" or not. I couldn't care less what Card thinks or believes--he's completely free to hold whatever beliefs he wants, crazy or logical. But he needs to be held accountable for what he *says* and *does*: he's free to do the things he does, but there's nothing in the first amendment that guarantees freedom from consequence. It is not un-American for people to react negatively to his rhetoric and actions and call for a boycott of this particular piece.
And it isn't about Card hating gay people--I honestly can't reach inside his head and see how he really feels, and I really don't care--it's about him actively working against them.
Or would you rather people be REQUIRED to support the work of rabid homophobes because it would be "PC" or "un-American" to take their business elsewhere? How anti-American is that?
*This 'politically correct' BS has got to stop... its anti-American, IMHO.*
Is standing up to racism or sexism "politically correct"? Do you honestly think that the people supporting the Civil Rights or Women's Suffrage movements did so just to look like nice people or win karma points?
This is about justice. This is about equality.
The LGBT community and its allies took a stand on this point, and I think it's a powerful one. Superman represents truth, justice, and the American way. Card's vitriol and expressed intentions contradict that on every level.
Cheers |
| Dark Wizard |
Posted - 01 Apr 2013 : 05:05:04
Didn't read the whole thread, just skimmed it. Not sure if it's been pointed out, but I'm chiming in to add, the people against Card's involvement in the Superman title didn't technically do anything. They complained and sent letters and promised a boycott. The same thing both sides or any side does when there's something people disagree with.
DC actually stuck with Card for a bit. However, it was the artist on the title, Chris Sprouse, who decided the media/social network attention and delays wasn't something he wanted to deal with. That delay effectively killed the title. Whether he agreed with or was against Card doesn't matter. In the end enough people felt this endeavor wasn't worth the effort and called it quits.
Personally I would say Card's heavy involvement with an actual organization with their own specific agenda makes him more than a run-of-the-mill author who is just vocal on his views. He has an active leadership position in an organization working to bring about a that specific agenda. That shifts him from a private citizen to a public figure and the rules change slightly. In the end freedom of speech is not freedom from consequences and Card has made his views abundantly clear.
This could happen to anyone with any view, such as in this recent example:
http://www.forbes.com/sites/kashmirhill/2013/03/21/sexism-public-shaming-via-twitter-leads-to-two-people-getting-fired-including-the-shamer/
This happened to people who actually need their jobs for their livelihood. Card is far more active and veritably (technically just a posted photo combined with someone else's interpretation of their comment) controversial than these two. He knew the situation when he made his statements and his contributions to said organizations. He is no different than anyone else who loses their job over statements they've made. As shown above, people have lost their jobs for less. |
| The Red Walker |
Posted - 01 Apr 2013 : 02:44:06
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
DD, I think there's a misunderstanding here. No one is saying Card shouldn't write (though I'm sure there are some people who think that), and no one is attacking him personally. Only that people are saying they will not buy or support Card writing a Superman story. I see nothing morally contradictory here, and I don't think that makes those people anything like Card himself.
Actually... it makes them much worse.
What if you said something that a lot of people didn't agree with, and that group decided to put pressure on the company you work for to fire you? Thats just what they are doing. They are targeting someone who doesn't agree with their own views and causing him to loose his livelihood, one of the worse things you you could do to a person. Its not just an attack against him (because of his beliefs), its an attack against his family.
When people who "only agree with ME" are the only folks allowed to write in this country, its time for me to find another country. To quote a famous man, "I may not agree with what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it".
Or in this case, THINK IT. This 'politically correct' BS has got to stop... its anti-American, IMHO. What next? We start hauling away those people who bad-mouth the establishment? You don't have to agree with an idiot to defend his right to BE an idiot.
that was very well said, but be careful....you will now be called out as a Card supporter. |
| MrHedgehog |
Posted - 01 Apr 2013 : 01:56:55
Well who cares if its what you call anti-american? Ed Greenwood is from Toronto! The realms were thought up in his Canadian brain.
Card is well beyond just being politically correct he thinks people shouldn't have rights who do things he doesn't agree with. Freedom for all seems like what being the ideal of "America" is.
I would not want to buy books written by someone who thinks such awful things I'd be afraid of it seeping into my mind. Like has already been said I am sure those who are squawking would not be offended if an author was being silenced who wrote something they didn't like. |
| The Masked Mage |
Posted - 31 Mar 2013 : 18:27:39
As far as political correctness goes, there seems to be nothing more PC than firing those who express opposing opinions, are accused of crimes, or are simply not what we enjoy. It happens every day is is normally celebrated by mass media in storms of editorial thumbs up stories. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 31 Mar 2013 : 15:45:01
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
DD, I think there's a misunderstanding here. No one is saying Card shouldn't write (though I'm sure there are some people who think that), and no one is attacking him personally. Only that people are saying they will not buy or support Card writing a Superman story. I see nothing morally contradictory here, and I don't think that makes those people anything like Card himself.
Actually... it makes them much worse.
What if you said something that a lot of people didn't agree with, and that group decided to put pressure on the company you work for to fire you? Thats just what they are doing. They are targeting someone who doesn't agree with their own views and causing him to loose his livelihood, one of the worse things you you could do to a person. Its not just an attack against him (because of his beliefs), its an attack against his family.
When people who "only agree with ME" are the only folks allowed to write in this country, its time for me to find another country. To quote a famous man, "I may not agree with what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it".
Or in this case, THINK IT. This 'politically correct' BS has got to stop... its anti-American, IMHO. What next? We start hauling away those people who bad-mouth the establishment? You don't have to agree with an idiot to defend his right to BE an idiot.
Saying you will not buy something written by a person is not the same as pressuring the company to fire him.
And even if it was, I'm sure he's not a DC staffer. Even if he was, he's got a lot of books to his credit -- so it's not like losing one gig would hurt him.
Politically correct or not, we all have the right to buy products from whomever we choose, and we have the right to not buy from whomever we choose.
His words were that he's going to work against the idea that everyone has the same Constitutionally-protected rights. I think that's a hell of a lot more anti-American than the statement "I don't agree with this guy's objectives, so I'm not going to support him."
Heck, not supporting someone you don't agree with is a fundamental part of our democracy: we exercise that right in the voting booth every few years. |
| Markustay |
Posted - 31 Mar 2013 : 14:24:48
quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
DD, I think there's a misunderstanding here. No one is saying Card shouldn't write (though I'm sure there are some people who think that), and no one is attacking him personally. Only that people are saying they will not buy or support Card writing a Superman story. I see nothing morally contradictory here, and I don't think that makes those people anything like Card himself.
Actually... it makes them much worse.
What if you said something that a lot of people didn't agree with, and that group decided to put pressure on the company you work for to fire you? Thats just what they are doing. They are targeting someone who doesn't agree with their own views and causing him to loose his livelihood, one of the worse things you you could do to a person. Its not just an attack against him (because of his beliefs), its an attack against his family.
When people who "only agree with ME" are the only folks allowed to write in this country, its time for me to find another country. To quote a famous man, "I may not agree with what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it".
Or in this case, THINK IT. This 'politically correct' BS has got to stop... its anti-American, IMHO. What next? We start hauling away those people who bad-mouth the establishment? You don't have to agree with an idiot to defend his right to BE an idiot. |
| Trebor |
Posted - 31 Mar 2013 : 08:49:02
I don't really know how much more I can say that hasn't already been said, but I'll go for it anyway.
I really love the Forgotten Realms. The setting has been one of my favorite things since I got into the novels and game back in '05. To me, the Realms has become a sort of character in its own right, and I feel like there needs to be some basic considerations made when it comes to who we let color that character. I'm sure anyone can agree that writers trusted with working in the Realms have a job that's equal parts adoption and creation. A Forgotten Realms author weaves their own work around--and with--the threads of the giant tapestry that makes up FR's history.
I wouldn't trust someone like Card to add to that inclusive and progressive tapestry without trying to also color it with their own hurtful agendas. It only takes one artistically-misused character to really hurt someone who might have otherwise become a fan for life. Everyone has wrong opinions, but artists have a special kind of responsibility when it comes to how they express them. If someone is willing to go out of their way to make sure everyone knows exactly what their prejudices are, how could you ever trust them to keep them from informing their work?
In short, I would feel very betrayed if a bigoted person like Card was allowed to drip even a little of their venomous viewpoints into a setting that's meant to embrace anyone who needs a place for their imagination to get lost in. |
| MrHedgehog |
Posted - 31 Mar 2013 : 04:55:42
Any franchise has to protect its image. What card says is extreme even if you don't believe in treating sexual minorities fairly. I would not want my business associated with that. (I found Ender's game homoerotic when I read it...) |
| BEAST |
Posted - 29 Mar 2013 : 21:47:14
quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden
I am sitting in Salt Lake City right now...the hypocrisy is thick all around me. This city, nice as it is, is a constant reminder to me of how often the persecuted become the persecutors in our society.
The history of the European migration from the Old World to the American colonies tells a similar tale. They ostensibly left European religious persecution, only to set up similar such religious establishments in the colonies. They ran away from bullies, only to become bullies on their own.
I would be willing to bet that Realms history is full of similar such examples, even if I can't think of specific examples at the moment. Egalitarianism and liberty for all cannot have been the norm for the Realms for all time, right?
|
| Dalor Darden |
Posted - 29 Mar 2013 : 19:22:01
I am sitting in Salt Lake City right now...the hypocrisy is thick all around me. This city, nice as it is, is a constant reminder to me of how often the persecuted become the persecutors in our society.
I only hope the pendulum of chaos doesn't swing too wildly this time. |
| Erik Scott de Bie |
Posted - 29 Mar 2013 : 18:17:55
DD, I think there's a misunderstanding here. No one is saying Card shouldn't write (though I'm sure there are some people who think that), and no one is attacking him personally. Only that people are saying they will not buy or support Card writing a Superman story. I see nothing morally contradictory here, and I don't think that makes those people anything like Card himself.
Also, equal rights regardless of sexual orientation is not a purely political matter. It's a moral, ethical, societal, and cultural one.
But we're getting fairly far afield here.
Cheers |
| Dalor Darden |
Posted - 29 Mar 2013 : 18:11:16
I still disagree with going after a person at their work. We have a political arena...and that is where all political matters should be resolved. Card suks...but we would suck more if we get personal. Lowering a debate to a personal level only makes us as low.
If card donates money to a group against lgbt then that is his courseoutsof action. If he spouts hate...that is his action.
We should be better...how can we be better? By not being anything even similar to those we oppose. |
| Jorkens |
Posted - 27 Mar 2013 : 08:15:41
quote:
Originally posted by BEAST
By fighting for "gay rights", people are actually just fighting for equal rights. So they're really fighting for all of us. They're fighting for freedom from legislative discrimination, segregation, and divisification. (OK, I made that last word up, but it sounded good! )
Once in a rare while someone says what I would have tried to say perfectly. Thanks. |
| BEAST |
Posted - 27 Mar 2013 : 00:57:27
Gotchya, Erik. I was waiting for some more insight from Aldrick on Card. Thanks for your timely response. |
| Erik Scott de Bie |
Posted - 26 Mar 2013 : 23:20:19
To answer your question, BEAST, Card has actively given LOTS of money to anti-gay campaigns and uses his author's pulpit to cry havoc against the cause of equal rights. So yes, he isn't just "voicing his beliefs"--he's actively engaging in the political and social arena to resist the force of progress.
And no one is "going after his day job." I suspect Card hasn't had a day job since he sold Ender's Game. He is a professional writer, and there are always gigs out there for a high-caliber professional writer like him.
Not to sound cheesy or starry-eyed fanboy about it, but writing Superman is a privilege and a responsibility, and it is about more than writerly chops. No doubt Card could create the story and dialogue and do it amazingly well. But buried within that story will be a core of intolerance, and that makes the whole thing fall flat.
Speaking from my own experience (I only ever speak for myself), authors cannot help but put themselves into the stories they write. Everything I write is deeply personal, and I am deeply emotionally invested in my characters, plots, and message. If I didn't believe it, I wouldn't write it. Will there be hate and bigotry and intolerance in my work? Sure, but never in a way that glories such things.
And regarding RAS and his "realmsiness," Bob is the second most important voice in the Realms, behind Ed Greenwood. Looking at his books and saying "that isn't the Realms" is a little nonsensical.
Cheers |
| BEAST |
Posted - 26 Mar 2013 : 20:17:27
quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
quote:
Originally posted by The Red Walker
The idea that my favorite Realms author not named Elaine, would single me out and provke me never crossed my mind So we're all good right?(as in I'm still welcome at the candlekeep GenCon Event?)
Of course. I *might* have to throw a water balloon at you, though. That's ok, right? I mean, it is August in Indianapolis.
As an alternative, I was thinking you could maybe add "Card Lover", or "Card Defender" at least, to his con namebadge or something. Maybe get Matt and Brian to make up some special, limited-run pins.  |
| BEAST |
Posted - 26 Mar 2013 : 20:12:35
quote:
Originally posted by The Red Walker
The government is sticking their nose in because we allowed it to happen. We allowed them to take control of a religious ceremony and make it "law". So much for seperation of church and state. We granted our Gov't the power over this. And we also allowed the gov't the power to say what happens to our goods and properties when we fall ill or pass on. WTF....why did we allow this?
Well, actually, sad to say, I think marriage actually began as a property matter, rather than as a religious one. As I was telling Aldrick elsewhere, the word "marriage" appears to have originally come from the Proto-Indo-European word mari, meaning "a young woman". A man equipped, furnished, gifted, or supplied with a young lady of his own was said to be maritus, or "married". It was like saying he was "propertied", or "landed", or "monied".
So, seen in that light, it's understandable that the idea of property rights and probate procedures might become attached to marriage.
(I don't know which irks me more, though: that religion got into it, too; or that men treated women like property in the first place!)
Q to all: Is there record of people in the Realms having this sort of history when it comes to marriage? Has marriage in the Realms always been about mutual love? Or has it been about cold-hearted, pragmatic property rights, too?
quote:
it's our own fault. We dropped the ball and allowed the gov't(when I use this i am talking federal government) to usurp our rights.
Well, I'd say we dropped the ball when we, men collectively, ever stooped to the Cretan level of viewing women as material objects and property to be acquired and owned.
The government, which was run almost exclusively by men until only quite recently in world history, only served to protect the rights of its primary agents: those same men.
The process of changing all that, to make things more inclusive and more egalitarian has been slow and gradual. But in large part, it has come by way of working within the governmental and legal systems, to change things from the inside. Ever-expanding perspectives of equality and justice are the positive results of this bickering and contentiousness and, yes, though I hate to admit it, litigiousness.
So while it stinks that we got it started off on the wrong foot, it's actually a good thing that people are using the system to belatedly make wrong things right.
This is, of course, despite the protests of people like Card.
quote:
We need to wake up at some point and see it is much, much bigger than who is going to write a Superman story or gay rights, or civil rights at stake. It is truly our FREEDOM itself under attack and we are(not all but far too many) sitting wringing our hands worried about where we are going, but not willing to do anything about it.
By fighting for "gay rights", people are actually just fighting for equal rights. So they're really fighting for all of us. They're fighting for freedom from legislative discrimination, segregation, and divisification. (OK, I made that last word up, but it sounded good! )
And in so doing, they are moving us all, one step at a time, further and further away from that old, crusty, sexist, property-based mindset. Maybe someday we'll evolve even further, to the point where we can get government and religion both completely out of it, and just leave it up to consenting adults to make up their own minds for themselves.
But what do I know? I'm just a fantasy fiction reader. I'm just a dreamer. |
| BEAST |
Posted - 26 Mar 2013 : 19:45:51
quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
You are free to make your own choices as to where your money goes.
OK, we're in agreement there, Erik.
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If you want to punish people for their beliefs, that's a pretty sucky thing to do, and that isn't at all what I'm advocating. The movement against Card has little to nothing to do with his beliefs--its his ACTIONS and WORDS that people object to.
Here's where things get murky, for me. His words are just statements of his beliefs, aren't they? They haven't been turned into action yet, have they? So essentially he is being harassed for his stated beliefs.
Now, I would kinda understand the animosity toward Card if he made Superman anti-gay and anti-equality. That would be out-of-character for Superman, and an abuse of Card's position. So that would be a situation in which fans would be justified, perhaps, in calling for Card to be fired.
quote:
If your food vendor sells food at a discount to white people but hikes up prices for black people because he just doesn't like those [insert slur here], then yes, you should feel justified shopping elsewhere.
If your FedEx guy screams at you every day for having guns and puts signs out in your yard that say you and your family are abominations of nature because you have guns, yeah, you'd be justified in trying to get him fired.
If your teacher awards every blonde and blue-eyed student an A without expecting anything like academic study or work because in her view they are blessed by some sort of god, but gives all dark-haired students a F regardless of how hard they worked because she just doesn't like brunettes and wants them to go away, then yes, you'd be justified in trying to get her fired.
If the coach in your example leads the team to a 12-0 victory, then calmly explains to the kids that it's because the other team is composed of [insert gay slurs here] who'll never amount to anything and will go to hell because of their vile ways, then yeah, by all means, get him dislodged from his post.
You see where I'm going with this?
OK, do you see that in all of those examples, the jerks were displaying their offensive behavior on the job?
But here, don't we have people giving Card a hard time, not over his job performance, but over his personal views voiced on a blog, or in interviews? They're taking non-job-related comments and then trying to place his job in jeopardy. That's a non sequitur, IMO.
Again, I can totally understand that fans may not want to support any celebrity/entertainer once that individual has taken an unpopular stance on any given issue. Once that person opens his/her big mouth, then fans are free to respond with their wallets. Really, we shouldn't be so petty. We should be able to differentiate between a celeb's personal beliefs and his/her professional performance. But we're all human. Stuff gets to us, sometimes. Fine, whatever.
But going after the guy's job seems un-American to me. Sure, it's modern American, with all the dirty litigiousness and strife. But it's not classic American, where we agree to let even unpopular opinions be aired, without petty retaliation.
There are people out there who have occasionally claimed that Bob Salvatore's stories are not "real Realms". Should they, then, try to get him removed from Realms fiction? (I know; I know--fat chance of that ever happening!  And Bob is like the furthest thing from Card there could ever be!) But still, is that the correct course of action for them to take? If they feel Bob doesn't write magic properly, or he doesn't characterize Lady Alustriel right, or consarn it! elves just don't close their eyes in reverie, then would it be right for them to call for his head?
Doesn't that sound like overkill?
Even for the guy who took a drow, and then turned him all goodly and heroic? Isn't it overkill even to try to get that guy fired?
Well, AFAIK, Card hasn't even done anything remotely similar to that.
Again, it's fine to passively not buy his stuff. But it's something else to actively try to get him fired from his day job because of what he has said on his off-time. I say, don't buy his stuff, let his spin on the comic finish a short run, and then wait for DC to get someone new when they think it makes good business sense. Superman is far bigger than Card, so the big guy will be all right. Just let Card's era wither on the vine and fade away. But leave the toxic pesticide out of it. (Not that you, personally, are doing or saying anything toxic, Erik. That's more directed at the termination-mongers.) |
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