| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| CorellonsDevout |
Posted - 16 Oct 2012 : 07:30:30
On Erik's site in discussing the Sundering, if I remember correctly (sorry if I misquote you, Erik), he mentioned that we may see future novels featuring homosexual couples. I would love, love this if it is true!! Many of my characters I roleplay (via writing, not D&D), and story tell with friends, are male with male lovers, so this idea resonates with me. I say go for it!
This may be a sensitive topic to some people, but please, please be civil. |
| 30 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| Alystra Illianniis |
Posted - 15 Nov 2012 : 22:29:50
Hmm, now I'm wondering if my transplanted bard might be interested in creating a few lurid chapbooks of his own. Or maybe a ribald tune or three? |
| xaviera |
Posted - 15 Nov 2012 : 19:54:44
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
I'm pretty sure Ed's hinted at something like this already occurring in chapbook form and found throughout the Realms.
No doubt poorly-bound and inexpensive books scribbled or stamped on cheap papyrus or low-quality paper and illustrated with crudely-rendered erotic woodcuts and titles such as:
"Secrets of the Elves"
"In the Syl-Pasha's Hareem"
"The Triadic Knights: Comrades in Arms"
"In the Service of Sharess"
"The Spider's Web: A True Tale of Drow Depravities"
"In Bondage: The Whips of Loviatar"
"The Minotaur's Lair"
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| Markustay |
Posted - 15 Nov 2012 : 19:47:52
Let us not forget the successfully suppressed Volo's Guide to All Things Sensual. 
Wherein we discover another, well-hidden talent of the inquisitive rogue, and how he uses it to procure obscure information. |
| Erik Scott de Bie |
Posted - 15 Nov 2012 : 19:11:14
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
quote:
Originally posted by Alystra Illianniis
... Pillow Talk"? JK.
Jocularity aside, I'm pretty sure Ed's hinted at something like this already occurring in chapbook form and found throughout the Realms. It involves some of the Seven Sisters... particularly, Storm.
It was Ed's response to part of a racy Realms literature query that Jamallo and I made several long years ago. I'll need to check up on this.
I have directly revealed several titles of these chapbooks in my novel, Downshadow. A particularly popular one is "Lascivities of a Loveable Lothario," a mostly fictionalized series that follows the bumbling and sexy misadventures of the notorious "Old Mage." 
Cheers |
| Alystra Illianniis |
Posted - 15 Nov 2012 : 03:01:21
Yeah, I seem to recall seeing something about it. I'd love to see some of those little chapbooks actually get produced, a la MtG's "Unglued" and other such humorous products. It would be a great April Fool's gag product, no? |
| The Sage |
Posted - 15 Nov 2012 : 01:54:33
quote:
Originally posted by Alystra Illianniis
... Pillow Talk"? JK.
Jocularity aside, I'm pretty sure Ed's hinted at something like this already occurring in chapbook form and found throughout the Realms. It involves some of the Seven Sisters... particularly, Storm.
It was Ed's response to part of a racy Realms literature query that Jamallo and I made several long years ago. I'll need to check up on this. |
| Dennis |
Posted - 15 Nov 2012 : 00:53:44
Erevis Cale: The Dark Lover. I can imagine Paul cringing at this. |
| Alystra Illianniis |
Posted - 15 Nov 2012 : 00:39:17
Perhaps one day we might even be able to expect such tales as "Elminster in Love", or "The Lonely Drow", LOL! "Maybe, "Erevis Cale- Pillow Talk"? JK. But seriously, I'd love to see some tales where relationships are a major part of the story, regardless of the gneder combination thereof. |
| Dennis |
Posted - 14 Nov 2012 : 23:54:49
quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
The Realms is not a romance setting, so while there might be romance and it might be significant, it should never be the main focus of the story.
True for the Realms. Although other settings get to use it just fine, like Lynn Flewelling's Nightrunner series, and Rachel Haimowitz's Song of the Fallen series. The romance is woven/integrated well into the epic scale of the conflict. |
| Erik Scott de Bie |
Posted - 21 Oct 2012 : 06:43:25
MZB is a great model for a lot of things. This is one, I agree.
Also, your character sounds awesome, Xaviera!
Cheers |
| xaviera |
Posted - 20 Oct 2012 : 00:41:25
quote:
Originally posted by Chosen of Asmodeus
Unless the specific drow female in question has a personal vendetta against one of the men in question and seeks to deny the individual any form of pleasure, I'd imagine most drow women would allow the men their dalliances, secure in the knowledge that they can take what they want from them at any time.
Though I rather suspect that some drow females would be inclined to kill one of the males (or force the other male to do it!) just to establish their own dominance unequivocally.
quote:
Originally posted by Alystra Illianniis
I've already got JUST such a tale (or three) in progress, and if WotC ever made a line of adult Realms novels (or any other setting) I'd be right there with a submission! [...] If you want to get an idea of it, check the link for mickey's-comic-tavern in my siggy, and go to the "Darksong: Mature Fantasy" thread. It's quite steamy!
As the player of a bisexual Sharessan ex-prostitute ("Men for business, women for pleasure"  ) I certainly have no objection to non-heteronormative (as Erik likes to say) relationships in fantasy RP. And I'd definitely consider buying a decent erotic adult fantasy novel (or do I mean an indecent one?). Even on the web they're few and far between *goes off to browse link*
quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
As I've said at least once, I agree 100%. There's a difference between having gay characters as part of a story and having gay characters that OMG THEY'RE GAY as part of a story.
Marion Zimmer Bradley's "Darkover" novels had a few gay male characters. In that world homosexuality was accepted, if somewhat sneered at, and of course if you were a noble you still had to beget an heir regardless of who you slept with the rest of the time. Sexual orientation usually played only a minor role in character interactions and so to me quite well fit the bill of being 'part of the story' rather than the main thrust of it (if you'll pardon the expression). Even the human + hermaphroditic alien love scene in one of her books was quite tastefully handled.
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| Erik Scott de Bie |
Posted - 18 Oct 2012 : 17:24:07
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
quote:
Originally posted by Diffan
I think more people who read Realms novels are interested in the story and not just one aspect of a relationship between the characters within.
Agreed. The relationship should add flavor to the story, but should not become the 'meat' itself. Otherwise, that would feel too un-Realmsian for me.
As I've said at least once, I agree 100%. There's a difference between having gay characters as part of a story and having gay characters that OMG THEY'RE GAY as part of a story. If the only role your gay characters have in the story is to be gay and highlight some issue of being gay, then they get defined by their gay-ness, which is just as insulting as not including them at all (if not more so). Caricature is just as bad as exclusion.
The Realms is not a romance setting, so while there might be romance and it might be significant, it should never be the main focus of the story.
Cheers |
| Alystra Illianniis |
Posted - 18 Oct 2012 : 07:40:00
Ooh, now THAT is something I could get behind! Matter of fact, I've already got JUST such a tale (or three) in progress, and if WotC ever made a line of adult Realms novels (or any other setting) I'd be right there with a submission! Sadly, the work in question is far too rique for their current lines, and to tone it down enough for them would literally loose half the story's impact and plot. If you want to get an idea of it, check the link for mickey's-comic-tavern in my siggy, and go to the "Darksong: Mature Fantasy" thread. It's quite steamy! |
| Dennis |
Posted - 18 Oct 2012 : 07:28:16
quote:
Originally posted by Diffan
I think more people who read Realms novels are interested in the story and not just one aspect of a relationship between the characters within.
Agreed. The relationship should add flavor to the story, but should not become the 'meat' itself. Otherwise, that would feel too un-Realmsian for me. |
| CorellonsDevout |
Posted - 18 Oct 2012 : 05:39:30
Oh, Erik that's naughty! Realms for mature readers ;) Haha but I would read them, too XD In fact, I'd be quite interested, even if reading about sex makes me blush sometimes (which is ironic considering some of my characters are, uh, sexually active, and books I've read outside the Realms, while in the fantasy section of the bookstore, are certainly "adult"). And sometimes and if a scene is too gory I have to set the book down and breathe for a bit before going back to it, but if it's tastefully done, I'd read it :) |
| Erik Scott de Bie |
Posted - 18 Oct 2012 : 05:27:42
Agreed with Diffan and CD. The mere act of adding non-straight people to Realms novels doesn't necessarily change their content or theme. Heck, my last four realms novels have had major non-straight characters that you'd only know weren't straight based on small clues and reading between the lines, because it doesn't come up hardly at all. Well, except Ilira, whose actions make it pretty darn clear.
Also, I would love to see a subset of Realms novels that are for "mature readers only": more sex, more gore (maybe--some of what we have is pretty gory), etc. I would write such a novel in a heartbeat.
Cheers |
| CorellonsDevout |
Posted - 18 Oct 2012 : 05:22:25
quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
Well, priests of Vhaeraun hate female drow just as much as (if not more than) priestesses of Lolth hate male drow, so the logic of male-male pairings in Vhaeraun cults is sound. I know that's a big thing in my personal Realms campaign.
I also have played a long running male drow thief who is bisexual, having plied his intimate form of persuasion on equal numbers of male and female NPCs (and the occasional PC). He is currently running a thieves' guild in partnership with a male drow assassin who tried to kill him but became his uneasy lover (still wants to kill him, no doubt). The next arc of that campaign features his "sister," though it may just be him dressed as a woman (in a Chevalier d'Éon sort of way). It's a fabulous campaign.
Cheers
That's true (and, honestly, I would have liked to have seen more "romantic"--though that is a bad term considering we are talking about drow here--interaction between males. I don't necessarily mean sex, just...implications? I guess?). However, I also seem to remember reading somewhere--the book escapes me, sadly. I want to say it was Elaine Cunningham's Starlight and Shadows trilogy, but I could be wrong, that Vs actually wanted more females, because they need to reproduce, and they did believe in equaliy. Again, I could be completely off.
And sounds like an awesome campaign!
@Diffan: oh gosh, that's a scary thought! The Realms isn't a romance genre, so of course the relationship or the character's sexuality wouldn't be the center of the story. |
| Diffan |
Posted - 18 Oct 2012 : 05:05:58
I think more people who read Realms novels are interested in the story and not just one aspect of a relationship between the characters within. If it's a good story, then I don't think it really matters one way or another. If I recall, one book in particular got away with a girl-on-girl scene (Baldur's Gate II: Shadows of Amn) but I'm not sure if that was a TSR book or one published by WotC?
Either way, diversity is great and all, so long as it doesn't encompass other traits of the character that might have a more focus on the story. Who knows? Perhaps in a few years we'll see a more adult line of books akin to Fifty Shades of Grey (haven't read it, but my wife has). They'd have to call it make it more 'Realmsian' like Fifty shades of.......Shades (or something) |
| Erik Scott de Bie |
Posted - 18 Oct 2012 : 04:51:31
Well, priests of Vhaeraun hate female drow just as much as (if not more than) priestesses of Lolth hate male drow, so the logic of male-male pairings in Vhaeraun cults is sound. I know that's a big thing in my personal Realms campaign.
I also have played a long running male drow thief who is bisexual, having plied his intimate form of persuasion on equal numbers of male and female NPCs (and the occasional PC). He is currently running a thieves' guild in partnership with a male drow assassin who tried to kill him but became his uneasy lover (still wants to kill him, no doubt). The next arc of that campaign features his "sister," though it may just be him dressed as a woman (in a Chevalier d'Éon sort of way). It's a fabulous campaign.
Cheers |
| CorellonsDevout |
Posted - 18 Oct 2012 : 03:58:14
@AI: heh, I would love to write a Realms book with an openly gay male too! (or, at least one who has a male lover, even if he isn't a "homosexual"). I have several male characters who have a lover of the same sex.
Annnd, some of these characters are drow (who have found love in spite of their culture). I would actually think that male drow would gravitate towards each other sexually (especially Vhaeraunites), because of the suppression they get from females. |
| Alystra Illianniis |
Posted - 18 Oct 2012 : 02:20:06
Heh. One of my favorite moments in fantasy was from the first book in that series, Her Majesty's Wizard, when Matt first meets the evil wizard that imprisoned Princess Alisande. They get into an impromptu spell-battle, and he nearly defeats the guy (in chapter three, no less!) with a rhyme that makes his heart disappear, with the metaphorical implication that he is heartless. Made me laugh, and the rhyme that summons the dragon was even funnier! (Oops. I just asked for a light...) |
| Dennis |
Posted - 18 Oct 2012 : 02:06:04
I did mention some, right? I read a couple of Stasheff's when I was a kid [which I almost totally can't remember now]. Didn't really grab me, though his system of magic is interesting enough. |
| Erik Scott de Bie |
Posted - 18 Oct 2012 : 02:03:34
I see your point as well, CoA. To the drow, fundamentally sex is all about the transfer of power--mostly taking it or being forced to give it. Sex isn't a relationship to them--the really subversive thing is an actual relationship built on love and trust.
I guess we should fall back on "it depends."
Cheers |
| Alystra Illianniis |
Posted - 18 Oct 2012 : 01:58:55
Dennis, you blaspheme, LOL! Not like Stasheff??!! Granted, the Warlock books might not be your cup of tea, but the Wizard in Rhyme series should very well suit you, I think. You might appreciate Piers Anthony, as well- at least his Phaze/Proton series, the Incarnations series, or the Xanth novels. (Well, the last series might be questionable.) And interestingly, Anthony is quite progressive himself regarding the concept of sexuality, especially in the meaning of love and relationships. I recall some VERY diverse pairings in those books! (Harpy and goblin? Talk about interracial couples! Then again, if a pegasus and a dragon....)
Well, if I could have my way, the Realms might just get a little diversity. I'd love to be the one to write the first openly gay character(s). Guess I need to finish some of those stories I've been playing with. |
| Erik Scott de Bie |
Posted - 18 Oct 2012 : 01:58:41
That's what I thought you meant. Elves are notably more experimental than humans, and have a reputation for being more flexible in the boudoir. So it's certainly possible. Love is a great motivation to bind people together--or exploit to keep someone loyal.
Cheers |
| Chosen of Asmodeus |
Posted - 18 Oct 2012 : 01:56:39
quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
My sense is that female-female relationships are acceptable, if not preferred, while male-male relationships are especially subversive and punishable by harsh measures (because that threatens female power). Not that it's ever explicitly stated that's the case--it's just the sense I got from WotSQ.
A threat how? They've allowed wizards to band together. Surely they will also allow them to bond.
Heh!
Forbidding the sexual expression of an oppressed minority is a mode of control. Straight men in positions of power do it to women and non-straight people all the time in our world. But not to dwell on the RW too much.
Male drow who forge relationships with each other are excluding female drow from the equation, thus keeping them from having power over the male drow. The last thing female drow would want is to have the menfolk forging those tight bonds and getting uppity.
Cheers
That would be the case if such things as monogamy or consent existed in drow culture. Drow women are under no expectation of respecting the fact that a pair of drow males are in a relationship, nor do any drow males, regardless of orientation, have the right to refuse the advances of a drow woman- at the very least they don't have the right to refuse a noble born or priestess of Lolth.
So while I see your point and don't entirely disagree with it, to me, it's something of a non-issue. Unless the specific drow female in question has a personal vendetta against one of the men in question and seeks to deny the individual any form of pleasure, I'd imagine most drow women would allow the men their dalliances, secure in the knowledge that they can take what they want from them at any time. |
| Dennis |
Posted - 18 Oct 2012 : 01:47:20
quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't Hadrhune originally an elf? Maybe I'm thinking of someone else. (Away from my books.)
Either way, probably?
Cheers
Right. What I meant was when they were still pure mortals, before they embraced shadedom. |
| Erik Scott de Bie |
Posted - 18 Oct 2012 : 01:44:29
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
My sense is that female-female relationships are acceptable, if not preferred, while male-male relationships are especially subversive and punishable by harsh measures (because that threatens female power). Not that it's ever explicitly stated that's the case--it's just the sense I got from WotSQ.
A threat how? They've allowed wizards to band together. Surely they will also allow them to bond.
Heh!
Forbidding the sexual expression of an oppressed minority is a mode of control. Straight men in positions of power do it to women and non-straight people all the time in our world. But not to dwell on the RW too much.
Male drow who forge relationships with each other are excluding female drow from the equation, thus keeping them from having power over the male drow. The last thing female drow would want is to have the menfolk forging those tight bonds and getting uppity.
Cheers |
| Erik Scott de Bie |
Posted - 18 Oct 2012 : 01:38:43
Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't Hadrhune originally an elf? Maybe I'm thinking of someone else. (Away from my books.)
Either way, probably?
Cheers |
| Dennis |
Posted - 18 Oct 2012 : 01:34:05
quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
My sense is that female-female relationships are acceptable, if not preferred, while male-male relationships are especially subversive and punishable by harsh measures (because that threatens female power). Not that it's ever explicitly stated that's the case--it's just the sense I got from WotSQ.
A threat how? They've allowed wizards to band together. Surely they will also allow them to bond.
quote:
Originally posted by Chosen of Asmodeus
Though, given the predilections of several powerful women I know in real life, it wouldn't surprise me if some drow women delight in seeing drow men together, even forcing them together when they're own preferences don't lean that way, for their own visual amusement.
Very likely. In Melanie Rawn's unfinished The Ruins of Ambrai series, such thing happened. Women there were as 'bad' as the drow priestesses, and at times, worse. |
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