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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
 Posted - 16 Oct 2012 : 07:30:30
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On Erik's site in discussing the Sundering, if I remember correctly (sorry if I misquote you, Erik), he mentioned that we may see future novels featuring homosexual couples. I would love, love this if it is true!! Many of my characters I roleplay (via writing, not D&D), and story tell with friends, are male with male lovers, so this idea resonates with me. I say go for it!
This may be a sensitive topic to some people, but please, please be civil.
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Sweet water and light laughter |
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Chosen of Asmodeus
Master of Realmslore
1221 Posts |
Posted - 16 Oct 2012 : 07:47:02
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I recall a topic similar to this a year or so ago that ended...badly, so I don't expect this topic to stay open very long.
More ontopic, though. I think it's a step in the right direction, I'm always for progressiveness in fantasy. I'm a big fan of the Dragon Age setting, for instance, where no one bats an eye at it.
Personally I have several characters of flexible sexuality- I think that's a better way to go, really. The catagorizing of gay/straight/bi is really more of a recent phenomena. In past societies sexuality wasn't so strictly defined. So I think that'd be the way to do it, avoid the labels.
I remember a few years back(I've told this story on here a few times), I was running an rp where one player was playing a male drow wizard. And we had set up prior that his character had lost a love interest but it hadn't been specified as to the gender of said love interest. I approached the player asking if he would mind his character's love interest being another man, as I'm always looking for diversity in my plotlines and it was my interpretation of his character that he'd only get romantically involved with someone based on mutual respect- something that is nigh impossible between male and female drow.
The player in question actually asked me if homosexuality existed in the realms, so it's something I think needs more exposure. |
"Then I saw there was a way to Hell even from the gates of Heaven"
- John Bunyan, Pilgrim's Progress
Fatum Iustum Stultorum. Righteous is the destiny of fools.
The Roleplayer's Gazebo;
http://theroleplayersgazebo.yuku.com/directory#.Ub4hvvlJOAY |
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Eldacar
Senior Scribe
438 Posts |
Posted - 16 Oct 2012 : 08:48:29
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Personally, I don't care one way or the other, as long as the homosexual aspect (or heterosexual, for that matter) isn't made into the entire character of the individual. As an example from pop culture, compare Kurt Hummel from Glee with Agent Jinks from Warehouse 13. They're both very different, despite the fact that they're both homosexual. Personally, I very much prefer Jinks. He can exist with or without it quite easily (it is a part of him, but does not take unnecessary importance over other parts), while with Kurt it basically is the entirety of his character. When an author/writer is trying to metaphorically beat me over the head with a non-heterosexual relationship or sexuality, it just gets annoying (see: Karen Traviss in the Legacy of the Force book series and her related commentaries on some websites).
I suppose that more or less sums up my viewpoint. I really don't mind as long as it doesn't take on the character/quality of a soapbox rant and/or detracts from the main narrative of the story. When an author starts turning a book (or comic, or TV show, or movie, or whatever) into their own personal podium for their personal views (i.e. the characters basically become the mouthpiece for the author to lecture readers), it creates a problem with the narrative. As long as that can be avoided, I'm fine with whatever. |
"The Wild Mages I have met exhibit a startling disregard for common sense, and are often meddling with powers far beyond their own control." ~Volo
"Not unlike a certain travelogue author with whom I am unfortunately acquainted." ~Elminster |
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Lord Bane
Senior Scribe
Germany
479 Posts |
Posted - 16 Oct 2012 : 09:23:22
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| I could be mistaken but homosexual relationships in the realms are looked upon with an odd look and a shake of the head. |
The driving force in the multiverse is evil, for it forces good to act. |
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 16 Oct 2012 : 18:47:05
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@CoA: I only joined this site last month, so a lot of the topics are new to me. I am aware that this is a sensitive topic, and this thread may not last long, but it's why I asked for politness. If people don't have anything nice to say, then they probably shouldn't comment. Several of my characters aren't given personal sexual preferences either (some are, but not all), and when they fall in love with a person of the same gender, and gender ceases to matter
@Eldacar: I'm not implying it has to be the focus of the story (relationships are usually only one plot within fantasy, anyway), I just think it'd be a nice aspect. |
Sweet water and light laughter |
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Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
4598 Posts |
Posted - 16 Oct 2012 : 19:00:14
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Thank you for the thread, CD. I don't know how long it will stay open, but let's try and be civil and respectful. If you, prospective poster, have a big problem with alternative sexualities, please just find another thread. What we're talking about here is the role of such things in the Realms, in game and in the novels (that's what CD originally asked about).
And to clarify, I wasn't saying that we "would" see future novels featuring non-heteronormative couples, but only that I'd support it. It's strictly up to authors what they deal with in their novels, and if they don't want to (or can't) deal with questions of sexuality, I'd much rather they didn't feel pressured to make the attempt.
Also, my Realms novels have dealt with alternative sexualities (sometimes just having non-straight characters, sometimes playing up a non-straight love story) since I started writing in the Realms. I think the only Realms story I've ever written that didn't have non-straight characters/themes was "The Hunting Game," in Realms of the Dragons 2. Ever since then, it's been there, either subtly or not. My Shadowbane series makes extensive use of the theme.
quote:
Originally posted by Eldacar
Personally, I don't care one way or the other, as long as the homosexual aspect (or heterosexual, for that matter) isn't made into the entire character of the individual.
...
I suppose that more or less sums up my viewpoint. I really don't mind as long as it doesn't take on the character/quality of a soapbox rant and/or detracts from the main narrative of the story. When an author starts turning a book (or comic, or TV show, or movie, or whatever) into their own personal podium for their personal views (i.e. the characters basically become the mouthpiece for the author to lecture readers), it creates a problem with the narrative. As long as that can be avoided, I'm fine with whatever.
Full agreement with that statement, though I'm not familiar enough with your examples to discuss them. Characters should be multi-dimensional and their sexuality should just be one aspect of them. Sure, they can go through story arcs where it's relevant or even core to the story, but that shouldn't be their ONLY story arcs or the entire point of the character.
It's much the same as the "feminist agenda character," where the only reason the character (an Amazon princess, for instance, or rippling muscle woman who can't help but argue/challenge every man she meets) is there is to show that women are badasses who don't need men. That's an interesting character for all of one chapter, and then the reader is left asking, "well, what else?"
That isn't to say you should never do that--writers use characters for all sorts of reasons, and a one-note character can be useful in certain situations. But generally speaking, if you're going to take a pseudo-controversial theme like "not-straight" and apply it to a longevity character, it can't be the be-all/end-all of that character.
quote:
Originally posted by Lord Bane
I could be mistaken but homosexual relationships in the realms are looked upon with an odd look and a shake of the head.
It depends. In some places (primarily rural or societies that have very firmly established gender roles that include heteronormative behavior), that's definitely the case. But I think generally the Realms is much more open and much less hung up about it than the RW. It's much more like Dragon Age in that respect.
Cheers |
Erik Scott de Bie
'Tis easier to destroy than to create.
Author of a number of Realms novels (GHOSTWALKER, DEPTHS OF MADNESS, and the SHADOWBANE series), contributor to the NEVERWINTER CAMPAIGN GUIDE and SHADOWFELL: GLOOMWROUGHT AND BEYOND, Twitch DM of the Dungeon Scrawlers, currently playing "The Westgate Irregulars" |
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Lord Bane
Senior Scribe
Germany
479 Posts |
Posted - 16 Oct 2012 : 19:14:49
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| People are not hung up about it but they are not shrugging either about it. They may no drive them off with torches and pitchforks but i can see them get some remarks here and there. While not oppressed they would still recieve some reserved behaviour. |
The driving force in the multiverse is evil, for it forces good to act. |
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Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
4598 Posts |
Posted - 16 Oct 2012 : 20:28:09
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quote:
Originally posted by Lord Bane
People are not hung up about it but they are not shrugging either about it. They may no drive them off with torches and pitchforks but i can see them get some remarks here and there. While not oppressed they would still recieve some reserved behaviour.
You read my post about "it depends," right?
Individuals have whatever opinions they have. I know lots of people in the RW who don't accept or consider all sorts of things weird.
Cheers |
Erik Scott de Bie
'Tis easier to destroy than to create.
Author of a number of Realms novels (GHOSTWALKER, DEPTHS OF MADNESS, and the SHADOWBANE series), contributor to the NEVERWINTER CAMPAIGN GUIDE and SHADOWFELL: GLOOMWROUGHT AND BEYOND, Twitch DM of the Dungeon Scrawlers, currently playing "The Westgate Irregulars" |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 16 Oct 2012 : 22:31:56
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After the 'women/heroines in the Realms' thread, I decided the general consensus was correct on the much broader topic of sexuality.
It shouldn't just be used for 'shock value'. If its part of the story, then fine, but folks shouldn't do it just to do it. I think that can get as condescending as not portraying them at all.
The first few times I saw girl-on-girl relationships in prime time I was like "cool!". But now its becoming so overused as a gimmick I'm pretty sick of it. Thats what we should avoid at all costs. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 16 Oct 2012 22:32:16 |
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The Red Walker
Great Reader
USA
3567 Posts |
Posted - 16 Oct 2012 : 23:22:34
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Having been in a relationship for over twenty years.....I vote that all future Realms relationship stuff should be offscreen regardless of oreintation |
A little nonsense now and then, relished by the wisest men - Willy Wonka
"We need men who can dream of things that never were." -
John F. Kennedy, speech in Dublin, Ireland, June 28, 1963
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Edited by - The Red Walker on 16 Oct 2012 23:23:04 |
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Thrasymachus
Learned Scribe
195 Posts |
Posted - 17 Oct 2012 : 00:48:10
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quote:
Originally posted by CorellonsDevout
On Erik's site in discussing the Sundering, if I remember correctly (sorry if I misquote you, Erik), he mentioned that we may see future novels featuring homosexual couples. I would love, love this if it is true!! Many of my characters I roleplay (via writing, not D&D), and story tell with friends, are male with male lovers, so this idea resonates with me. I say go for it!
This may be a sensitive topic to some people, but please, please be civil.
quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
“Thank you for the thread, CD. I don't know how long it will stay open, but let's try and be civil and respectful. If you, prospective poster, have a big problem with alternative sexualities, please just find another thread. What we're talking about here is the role of such things in the Realms, in game and in the novels (that's what CD originally asked about)..”
I have often found it amusing that for all the pushing for an expansion of diversity that you start so many threads with these restricting guidelines that call for buy in to your premises to post. It seems that in a forum a diversity of opinion is part of the point.
Anywhoo, I still qualify for posting because I don’t have a care in the world about the sexual, religious, political, or racial makeup of anyone anywhere, I do have a problem with the push to use the Realms as a plank to promote a real world agenda; Sexual, religious, political, or racial. And what I am speaking to is products. What anyone does at their gaming table is of course their business IMHO.
It’s a fantasy game, and really it should be bare bones enough to allow for gamers to decide how much of any of that they want at their game table without it being baked into the setting and forced upon them.
And if we’re bringing in real world sensibilities, are we going to remove slavery? Is Thay the next landmass on the chopping block? Following the Real Life argument it darn well should be, or do we take the stance that it’s a fantasy game and that Wizards doesn’t advocate slavery.
Or do they? Come to think of it weren’t those Pokemon trapped in their cramped Pokeballs actually more like slaves? Is Wizards really a proponent of slavery after all?
No, it’s fantasy game.
But here’s the track record of how easy it is to goof this up.
Oriental Adventures 1985
Oriental Adventures 2001
In hindsight “Oriental” should probably been replaced with “Asian”, but better yet “Kara-Tur Adventures” would have been better still because it would have been fantasy. It’s harder to crank up someone’s sensibilities in a fantasy world.
Want to touch the racial diversity storyline, You have half-elves. The very nature of Half-elves can hit those racial taboo role play buttons.
Want to touch religious war you can have the fighting between Cyrists and Banites, and if some gamer at his table really grooves on wiping out one of those groups will anybodys real life religious beliefs feel infringed upon? Nope
Want to touch political and any kingdom offers that. Cormyr has enough detail for instance.
Want to touch racial issues, take Evermeet’s stance of Elves only, or the only good Drow is a dead one.
Part of the beauty of the Realms is that you can have as much of that as you want at your game table. Another part is that you can have as little at your game table.
IMHO
@ CorellonsDevout
@ Erik Scott de Bie
I doubt I convinced either of you, and since you seem to be on this diversity kick for good I ask you the following…
In the spirit of diversity - As the religious centers in the Forgotten Realms where would you integrate Islam, and Christianity and why?
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Former Forgotten Realms brand manager Jim Butler: "Everything that bears the Forgotten Realms logo is considered canon". |
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 17 Oct 2012 : 05:53:24
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@Erik: you're welcome :) and yeah, I'm not sure how long it will last--I'm aware it could go in the wrong direction, but we'll see. And I did say "may" not "would". I'm glad you're in support of it!
@Thrasymachus: we can share our differing opinions and still be polite about it. It's not about restriction, it's about manners and being respectful. |
Sweet water and light laughter |
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Lord Bane
Senior Scribe
Germany
479 Posts |
Posted - 17 Oct 2012 : 09:33:16
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I read your post entirely Erik.
I am with you on the "it depends" aspect, but we also have to consider what may be more likely.
Creatures with such tendencies in the realms are not a common sight, they are a minority and minorities are always prone to different treatment than larger factions of society.
Faiths of deities of love or freedom may encourage them and in individual circumstances a peasent may just shrug it off and get on with life but the majority will not percieve them as "normal" and have reservations about the sexual orientation and behave differently around them.
Also do not forget that the society is partly "father was a farmer,son is a farmer,grandson will be a farmer" with lineage taking up work of the previous one unless they take a different approach due to outside influences. Most of the realms inhabitants are not as cosmopolitan as you might want them to be as it does cost money to travel and the common peasent who is not the "extreme" of an adventurer has not the monetary weight to travel wide and afar and get to know the world around him because he is busy making a living and survive.
Homosexual creatures might be treated differently in cities than smaller hamlets due to the fact that cities are home to more people and are more likely to attract travelers of other cultures.
Cultures may vary, some may be more open and others more restrictive to homosexuality and they may import such mindsets to places who are frequented by the culture but it does not mean they are widely accepted within the places, a hamlet who rarely has outside visit will deal completely different when they encounter homosexual behaviour because it may be the first time they experience such a thing.
Now let us picture a farmer with one child, a son, who, in his known mindset of the world wishes for his family to work the fields for generations to come and prosper, he may has never known much out of the piece of land he lives in, never went to great cities and has never encountered people with homosexual orientation. He has a son who has such an orientation and he is struck with disbelief because he has not known anything like it before and maybe considers it an illness or a curse and will mostlikely try to get him healed with a local person knowledgable in herbs and medicine or a cleric who may be near by.
They too may not have encountered a person with homosexual orientation though the cleric may have heard of it and tells the farmer of it, who then is in shock because his mind can´t comprehend why it is him that has to endure this "hardship" and knows that his heirs won´t be working the fields he will leave them because his son won´t be having children to work them, his "world" crumbles.
The common people who make up the majority of the realms are much more prone to superstition and accusing someone who they do not know for hardships that may have befallen them. My example given for a male person who is of homosexual orientation is a side of the coin, people who never encountered it may not understand it and act accordingly. Same would happen with a female person of homosexual orientation but let us be blunt and honest, she would be much more prone to arranged marriages and sexual abuse because just like the male version, she is not a "hero", she is a ordinary person bound by the chains of her upbringing and the society around her like everyone else.
Attitudes towards it may change from region to region due to culutral aspects or simply the fact that a big city is near where such people are not an uncommon sight due to travel or the number of population within the city and the chance of more than one person having such sexual tendencies being inside it but i doubt that they majority of the realms is indifferent about it.
I hope the explanation was understandable. I am with Erik in the "it depends" faction but wish to raise the awarness of the matter to be thought over in a more realistic scope of things.
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The driving force in the multiverse is evil, for it forces good to act. |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 17 Oct 2012 : 11:25:33
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Meh. Quite frankly, I'm tired of 'diversity' topics. I'm GAY, and proud (but don't attend the ridiculous parades); however, it doesn't mean I'd be so damn picky in my choice of novels to read [some gay guys would actually read only those books that have strong 'gay theme,' regardless of the genre]. If that were the case, I wouldn't have discovered the treasure that is the Realms.
I would reserve further comments if I actually SEE an out-in-the-open gay character in the Realms. There must be many of them; it's utterly preposterous if there aren't. I understand WotC's current stand on NOT showing them in B&W. There simply are closed-minded people who would spurn them. While most, if not all scribes here, are mature and open-minded enough, remember that we're not the only FR fans in the world. There are way, way many out there, probably visiting this site as guests, and thinking, 'Yeah, you're right.' |
Every beginning has an end. |
Edited by - Dennis on 17 Oct 2012 21:44:40 |
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Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
4598 Posts |
Posted - 17 Oct 2012 : 22:01:14
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It's not about pushing an agenda--it's more about providing various perspectives and characters multiple people can relate to. Say you're a straight white male, if I gave you a set of books with no straight white male characters, would I be justified in expecting you to read them? What if only 1% of fantasy books had straight white male characters? Would you look at fantasy as a genre that invites you?
It's about being open and welcoming to lots of people, regardless of color, creed, or orientation.
Cheers |
Erik Scott de Bie
'Tis easier to destroy than to create.
Author of a number of Realms novels (GHOSTWALKER, DEPTHS OF MADNESS, and the SHADOWBANE series), contributor to the NEVERWINTER CAMPAIGN GUIDE and SHADOWFELL: GLOOMWROUGHT AND BEYOND, Twitch DM of the Dungeon Scrawlers, currently playing "The Westgate Irregulars" |
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Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
4598 Posts |
Posted - 17 Oct 2012 : 22:33:03
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@Thras: I hear you, and as CD said, all we asked for was civility, which is just an echo of the Candlekeep Code of Conduct.
And you are definitely correct that WotC, TSR, and lots of game companies don't have great track records on diversity. Real world analogues are not good for fantasy, but being attracted to members of the same sex isn't a racial or institutional thing. It's biology and part of human nature, as much as being attracted to members of the opposite sex. And to contend that it doesn't exist in the realms would defy logic and canon (since we have actual/in-print examples).
I would not integrate any real world religion into the realms, as that isn't the function of the Realms, and as I said before there's too much room for mockery. As I said before, including non-straight characters serves the same function as including female characters, non-pale skinned characters, etc: to provide a diverse group of characters for readers to relate to, and increase the breadth of story.
@LB: I absolutely hear what you're saying. We should be wary of projecting too much of our RW attitude onto the Realms, though. Their society doesn't play by the same rules. In the case of the gay farmer, there are lots of children to be adopted, as well as surrogate mothers and (of course) magic. I think a cool story could be told about a man in this situation desperate to find a way for him and his husband to have children.
Also, we should break free of the strict gay-or-straight paradigm, where we see a character as either interested in the same sex or the opposite (or in rare cases, equally into both). In the Realms, sexuality is generally more fluid, and your gay farmer may be interested in men for a time but go for women at a later date. It's more like Greek male sexuality in that respect: where men were expected to have liaisons with older men as youths (then youths as older men) as well as women in order to produce children for property reasons. In a similar way, folk in the realms may go different ways at different times in their lives and different situations. This is not me saying all people in the realms are bisexual. Rather, who people sleep with depends on more factors tan their equipment.
Fantasy as a genre is changing. It's not just for straight white boys anymore. People of diverse backgrounds are coming to the table, and I for one would like there to be more diverse heroes waiting to greet them. Sexuality is an important element of this, and one that transcends things like skin tone or political structure.
But to get back to the OP, will we see more non-straight relationships in novels going forward? Maybe, and it's something I would support if we did. It's not about advancing an agenda--it's about being welcoming to diverse readers. Some of whom may be getting a little tired of having to pretend Drizzt is into the boys. 
Cheers |
Erik Scott de Bie
'Tis easier to destroy than to create.
Author of a number of Realms novels (GHOSTWALKER, DEPTHS OF MADNESS, and the SHADOWBANE series), contributor to the NEVERWINTER CAMPAIGN GUIDE and SHADOWFELL: GLOOMWROUGHT AND BEYOND, Twitch DM of the Dungeon Scrawlers, currently playing "The Westgate Irregulars" |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 18 Oct 2012 : 00:48:13
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quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
But to get back to the OP, will we see more non-straight relationships in novels going forward? Maybe, and it's something I would support if we did. It's not about advancing an agenda--it's about being welcoming to diverse readers.
It's annoying to hope or expect. If it happens, then good. If not, well, I don't really care that much. There are plenty of GLBT-themed novels out there I can read.
quote:
Some of whom may be getting a little tired of having to pretend Drizzt is into the boys.
Oh, he's not? I heard otherwise.  |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
4598 Posts |
Posted - 18 Oct 2012 : 00:52:43
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quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de BieBut to get back to the OP, will we see more non-straight relationships in novels going forward? Maybe, and it's something I would support if we did. It's not about advancing an agenda--it's about being welcoming to diverse readers.
It's annoying to hope or expect. If it happens, then good. If not, well, I don't really care that much. There are plenty of GLBT-themed novels out there I can read.
I keep recommending that de Bie guy's books and you keep saying, "but I like wizards!" Impasse.
Though of course there's Myrin and once you get to Eye of Justice there's Hessar to consider... But I digress.
quote:
quote:
Some of whom may be getting a little tired of having to pretend Drizzt is into the boys.
Oh, he's not? I heard otherwise.
Well, this IS fantasy.
Cheers |
Erik Scott de Bie
'Tis easier to destroy than to create.
Author of a number of Realms novels (GHOSTWALKER, DEPTHS OF MADNESS, and the SHADOWBANE series), contributor to the NEVERWINTER CAMPAIGN GUIDE and SHADOWFELL: GLOOMWROUGHT AND BEYOND, Twitch DM of the Dungeon Scrawlers, currently playing "The Westgate Irregulars" |
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farinal
Learned Scribe
Turkey
270 Posts |
Posted - 18 Oct 2012 : 01:05:53
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quote:
Originally posted by Lord Bane
I could be mistaken but homosexual relationships in the realms are looked upon with an odd look and a shake of the head.
Not in drow society and especially among females. |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 18 Oct 2012 : 01:19:32
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quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de BieBut to get back to the OP, will we see more non-straight relationships in novels going forward? Maybe, and it's something I would support if we did. It's not about advancing an agenda--it's about being welcoming to diverse readers.
It's annoying to hope or expect. If it happens, then good. If not, well, I don't really care that much. There are plenty of GLBT-themed novels out there I can read.
I keep recommending that de Bie guy's books and you keep saying, "but I like wizards!" Impasse.
Though of course there's Myrin and once you get to Eye of Justice there's Hessar to consider... But I digress.
Your books must be good, if the comments of the scribes here be the basis. However, based on what I heard so far (from scribes, you, and others), I know it's not really my cup of tea. The presence of wizards is just one of the things I seriously consider, and there are may others: the villain, the setting, the conflict, the supporting characters, etc. I've ignored a lot of non-Realms novels that featured wizards as protagonists/antagonists for the same reason, like some of Christopher Stasheff and David Drake. Heck, I didn't even manage to get past chapter 2 of Paul's The Hammer and The Blade even though one of the main 'heroes' is a wizard, albeit kinda inept. I'd like to be proven myself wrong, but so many past experiences have taught me well enough.
People change. That's the way of things. So another place, anther time, I might give those books a sample. [Didn't I mention that I was into Urban Fantasy long before I began to love epic/high fantasy? Now, I can hardly stand Urban Fantasy. Very, very rarely do I read UF nowadays. This year alone, I have read not a single thing.] |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
4598 Posts |
Posted - 18 Oct 2012 : 01:25:28
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@Dennis: Well, if you ever decide to give it a shot, you're more than welcome. Here are a couple free samples:
"The Last Legend of Gedrin Shadowbane," prequel to the series: http://wizards.com/dnd/files/GedrinShadowbane.pdf
"Chosen of the Sword," a bridge piece between Downshadow and Shadowbane: http://wizards.com/dnd/files/ChosenSwordFinal.pdf
quote:
Originally posted by farinal
quote:
Originally posted by Lord Bane
I could be mistaken but homosexual relationships in the realms are looked upon with an odd look and a shake of the head.
Not in drow society and especially among females.
Drow are a great example of "it depends." My sense is that female-female relationships are acceptable, if not preferred, while male-male relationships are especially subversive and punishable by harsh measures (because that threatens female power). Not that it's ever explicitly stated that's the case--it's just the sense I got from WotSQ.
Cheers |
Erik Scott de Bie
'Tis easier to destroy than to create.
Author of a number of Realms novels (GHOSTWALKER, DEPTHS OF MADNESS, and the SHADOWBANE series), contributor to the NEVERWINTER CAMPAIGN GUIDE and SHADOWFELL: GLOOMWROUGHT AND BEYOND, Twitch DM of the Dungeon Scrawlers, currently playing "The Westgate Irregulars" |
Edited by - Erik Scott de Bie on 18 Oct 2012 01:30:55 |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 18 Oct 2012 : 01:30:50
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Anyway, on topic: Ever wonder why Hadrhune remained so loyal to Telamont? Of course, that's to be expected from a seneschal. But his loyalty kinda bordered on blind admiration. Yes, he had plans of his own to better his standing. But fro someone who's with the Most High almost every second of the day, one would think he could have already discovered Telamont's well-guarded secrets and turn it again him, if he had the balls to do it.
So maybe he did have a thing for his lord? A thing that started right when they were still humans?
Of course, I could just be reading more into it. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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The Red Walker
Great Reader
USA
3567 Posts |
Posted - 18 Oct 2012 : 01:31:44
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quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
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Originally posted by Erik Scott de BieBut to get back to the OP, will we see more non-straight relationships in novels going forward? Maybe, and it's something I would support if we did. It's not about advancing an agenda--it's about being welcoming to diverse readers.
It's annoying to hope or expect. If it happens, then good. If not, well, I don't really care that much. There are plenty of GLBT-themed novels out there I can read.
I keep recommending that de Bie guy's books and you keep saying, "but I like wizards!" Impasse.
Though of course there's Myrin and once you get to Eye of Justice there's Hessar to consider... But I digress.
Your books must be good, if the comments of the scribes here be the basis. However, based on what I heard so far (from scribes, you, and others), I know it's not really my cup of tea. The presence of wizards is just one of the things I seriously consider, and there are may others: the villain, the setting, the conflict, the supporting characters, etc. I've ignored a lot of non-Realms novels that featured wizards as protagonists/antagonists for the same reason, like some of Christopher Stasheff and David Drake. Heck, I didn't even manage to get past chapter 2 of Paul's The Hammer and The Blade even though one of the main 'heroes' is a wizard, albeit kinda inept. I'd like to be proven myself wrong, but so many past experiences have taught me well enough.
People change. That's the way of things. So another place, anther time, I might give those books a sample. [Didn't I mention that I was into Urban Fantasy long before I began to love epic/high fantasy? Now, I can hardly stand Urban Fantasy. Very, very rarely do I read UF nowadays. This year alone, I have read not a single thing.]
Start by trying Downshadow. Very un-wizardly very much de Bie. And I can't remember have you read his Ghostwalker? |
A little nonsense now and then, relished by the wisest men - Willy Wonka
"We need men who can dream of things that never were." -
John F. Kennedy, speech in Dublin, Ireland, June 28, 1963
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Chosen of Asmodeus
Master of Realmslore
1221 Posts |
Posted - 18 Oct 2012 : 01:33:22
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quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
quote:
Originally posted by farinal
quote:
Originally posted by Lord Bane
I could be mistaken but homosexual relationships in the realms are looked upon with an odd look and a shake of the head.
Not in drow society and especially among females.
Drow are a great example of "it depends." My sense is that female-female relationships are acceptable, if not preferred, while male-male relationships are especially subversive and punishable by harsh measures (because that threatens female power). Not that it's ever explicitly stated that's the case--it's just the sense I got from WotSQ.
Cheers
I've actually asked Ed about this and THO confirmed that homosexuality falls into the purview of "Everything goes so long as you don't get caught", the cardinal rule that governs all drow society.
Though, given the predilections of several powerful women I know in real life, it wouldn't surprise me if some drow women delight in seeing drow men together, even forcing them together when they're own preferences don't lean that way, for their own visual amusement. |
"Then I saw there was a way to Hell even from the gates of Heaven"
- John Bunyan, Pilgrim's Progress
Fatum Iustum Stultorum. Righteous is the destiny of fools.
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http://theroleplayersgazebo.yuku.com/directory#.Ub4hvvlJOAY |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 18 Oct 2012 : 01:34:05
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quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
My sense is that female-female relationships are acceptable, if not preferred, while male-male relationships are especially subversive and punishable by harsh measures (because that threatens female power). Not that it's ever explicitly stated that's the case--it's just the sense I got from WotSQ.
A threat how? They've allowed wizards to band together. Surely they will also allow them to bond.
quote:
Originally posted by Chosen of Asmodeus
Though, given the predilections of several powerful women I know in real life, it wouldn't surprise me if some drow women delight in seeing drow men together, even forcing them together when they're own preferences don't lean that way, for their own visual amusement.
Very likely. In Melanie Rawn's unfinished The Ruins of Ambrai series, such thing happened. Women there were as 'bad' as the drow priestesses, and at times, worse. |
Every beginning has an end. |
Edited by - Dennis on 18 Oct 2012 01:42:29 |
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Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
4598 Posts |
Posted - 18 Oct 2012 : 01:38:43
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Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't Hadrhune originally an elf? Maybe I'm thinking of someone else. (Away from my books.)
Either way, probably?
Cheers |
Erik Scott de Bie
'Tis easier to destroy than to create.
Author of a number of Realms novels (GHOSTWALKER, DEPTHS OF MADNESS, and the SHADOWBANE series), contributor to the NEVERWINTER CAMPAIGN GUIDE and SHADOWFELL: GLOOMWROUGHT AND BEYOND, Twitch DM of the Dungeon Scrawlers, currently playing "The Westgate Irregulars" |
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Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
4598 Posts |
Posted - 18 Oct 2012 : 01:44:29
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quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
My sense is that female-female relationships are acceptable, if not preferred, while male-male relationships are especially subversive and punishable by harsh measures (because that threatens female power). Not that it's ever explicitly stated that's the case--it's just the sense I got from WotSQ.
A threat how? They've allowed wizards to band together. Surely they will also allow them to bond.
Heh!
Forbidding the sexual expression of an oppressed minority is a mode of control. Straight men in positions of power do it to women and non-straight people all the time in our world. But not to dwell on the RW too much.
Male drow who forge relationships with each other are excluding female drow from the equation, thus keeping them from having power over the male drow. The last thing female drow would want is to have the menfolk forging those tight bonds and getting uppity.
Cheers |
Erik Scott de Bie
'Tis easier to destroy than to create.
Author of a number of Realms novels (GHOSTWALKER, DEPTHS OF MADNESS, and the SHADOWBANE series), contributor to the NEVERWINTER CAMPAIGN GUIDE and SHADOWFELL: GLOOMWROUGHT AND BEYOND, Twitch DM of the Dungeon Scrawlers, currently playing "The Westgate Irregulars" |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 18 Oct 2012 : 01:47:20
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quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't Hadrhune originally an elf? Maybe I'm thinking of someone else. (Away from my books.)
Either way, probably?
Cheers
Right. What I meant was when they were still pure mortals, before they embraced shadedom. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Chosen of Asmodeus
Master of Realmslore
1221 Posts |
Posted - 18 Oct 2012 : 01:56:39
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quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
My sense is that female-female relationships are acceptable, if not preferred, while male-male relationships are especially subversive and punishable by harsh measures (because that threatens female power). Not that it's ever explicitly stated that's the case--it's just the sense I got from WotSQ.
A threat how? They've allowed wizards to band together. Surely they will also allow them to bond.
Heh!
Forbidding the sexual expression of an oppressed minority is a mode of control. Straight men in positions of power do it to women and non-straight people all the time in our world. But not to dwell on the RW too much.
Male drow who forge relationships with each other are excluding female drow from the equation, thus keeping them from having power over the male drow. The last thing female drow would want is to have the menfolk forging those tight bonds and getting uppity.
Cheers
That would be the case if such things as monogamy or consent existed in drow culture. Drow women are under no expectation of respecting the fact that a pair of drow males are in a relationship, nor do any drow males, regardless of orientation, have the right to refuse the advances of a drow woman- at the very least they don't have the right to refuse a noble born or priestess of Lolth.
So while I see your point and don't entirely disagree with it, to me, it's something of a non-issue. Unless the specific drow female in question has a personal vendetta against one of the men in question and seeks to deny the individual any form of pleasure, I'd imagine most drow women would allow the men their dalliances, secure in the knowledge that they can take what they want from them at any time. |
"Then I saw there was a way to Hell even from the gates of Heaven"
- John Bunyan, Pilgrim's Progress
Fatum Iustum Stultorum. Righteous is the destiny of fools.
The Roleplayer's Gazebo;
http://theroleplayersgazebo.yuku.com/directory#.Ub4hvvlJOAY |
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Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
4598 Posts |
Posted - 18 Oct 2012 : 01:58:41
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That's what I thought you meant. Elves are notably more experimental than humans, and have a reputation for being more flexible in the boudoir. So it's certainly possible. Love is a great motivation to bind people together--or exploit to keep someone loyal.
Cheers |
Erik Scott de Bie
'Tis easier to destroy than to create.
Author of a number of Realms novels (GHOSTWALKER, DEPTHS OF MADNESS, and the SHADOWBANE series), contributor to the NEVERWINTER CAMPAIGN GUIDE and SHADOWFELL: GLOOMWROUGHT AND BEYOND, Twitch DM of the Dungeon Scrawlers, currently playing "The Westgate Irregulars" |
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
Posted - 18 Oct 2012 : 01:58:55
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Dennis, you blaspheme, LOL! Not like Stasheff??!! Granted, the Warlock books might not be your cup of tea, but the Wizard in Rhyme series should very well suit you, I think. You might appreciate Piers Anthony, as well- at least his Phaze/Proton series, the Incarnations series, or the Xanth novels. (Well, the last series might be questionable.) And interestingly, Anthony is quite progressive himself regarding the concept of sexuality, especially in the meaning of love and relationships. I recall some VERY diverse pairings in those books! (Harpy and goblin? Talk about interracial couples! Then again, if a pegasus and a dragon....)
Well, if I could have my way, the Realms might just get a little diversity. I'd love to be the one to write the first openly gay character(s). Guess I need to finish some of those stories I've been playing with. |
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"Where Science ends, Magic begins" -Spiral, Uncanny X-Men #491
"You idiots! You've captured their STUNT doubles!" -Spaceballs
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http://sylinde.deviantart.com/#/d2z6e4u |
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Future Relationships in the Realms
