| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Jakk |
Posted - 21 Mar 2012 : 18:29:35
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Not to 'step on toes' or anything, but I have always assumed that the names in the Netheril box were translations into common/English for our benefit.
And hopefully (hint hint), someday someone will write an article about 'ancient Netheril' and we could get some of the Netherese names (UNtranslated).
I have to admit, this has been one of my fondest wishes for quite some time (since I found out where those names really came from). Maybe 5e can fix this? PLEEEEEEASE?
I'm curious now... where are these names from? I know that other published Netheril lore was brought in from another IP, but I don't recall which... can Mark or anyone else help out here? Many thanks. |
| 30 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| Dennis |
Posted - 31 May 2012 : 07:07:50
quote:
Originally posted by Lord Karsus
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
I wonder, though, why some don't have translations at all, and simply retained their Loross names, like Sakkors and Jockteleg. The latter should have been called Quantoul's Enclave. [Could Quantoul's popularity (lesser than most archwizards whose enclaves are known by their names, e.g. Karsus and Ioulaum) have to do with it?]
-That is probably simply a metagame shift in naming conventions. The Netheril box set pretty much only uses the "translations", while sources that have been written since- especially in 3e- have gone back and forth between the two (when applicable).
Or simply a writer's preference.
In Lords of Darkness, the name used to refer to the City of Shade is Thultanthar. While in Troy and Paul's novels, it's usually (or only?) Shade Enclave.
How many remember Xinlenal and Eileanar? Most people refer to them as Ioulaum's Enclave and Karsus' Enclave, respectively. |
| Lord Karsus |
Posted - 06 Apr 2012 : 17:28:40
-There is only one Kang, and he is a conqueror!
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
@LK - Gary did it, as Jorkens points out, back when it was just a humble little game between friends, which grew much bigger, but the names stuck. It was part of the game's original charm.
-I then blame the people who continued to add montage after montage, then. I mean, one or three are fine, not eight or nine. |
| The Sage |
Posted - 06 Apr 2012 : 06:03:56
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
There's 'good' Klingon? 
What's wrong with Kang?  |
| Markustay |
Posted - 06 Apr 2012 : 05:22:11
There's 'good' Klingon?
@LK - Gary did it, as Jorkens points out, back when it was just a humble little game between friends, which grew much bigger, but the names stuck. It was part of the game's original charm.
When I was a GH DM, I was a 'punny' DM - the worst of a bad lot. Once, during a session, the radio was playing and the song came on, "Ain't no woman like the one I got...", which one of my brother-in-laws friends was singing to (badly), and I instantly came up with the monster "the one-eyed gott". It was a rather ugly hag (resembling a small cyclops with a canine-like snout), but it would use illusions to lure men to their doom (she mated with them and then ate them... yeah, yeah, I know... save the corny jokes). She usually dropped the illusion at the finale of the sexual act, just to enjoy the look of horror on the victims face (and just before she starting eating that same face).
After the impromptu session and encounter, those guys forevermore sung that song, "There ain't no woman like the one-eyed gott..." (which is precisely how the bad rendition by the player sounded to me).
Actually, that was probably one of my better ideas. I had far, far worse - my GH campaign read like a bad Xanth novel.
And now that I am thinking back, my co-DM and I (we took turns) based a LOT of adventures on songs, and I still occasionally get ideas from one. I guess I should cut Slade some slack. |
| Ayrik |
Posted - 04 Apr 2012 : 03:08:04
Krashos is actually a fine name for an evil dragon. An anagram like Karsosh or Kargosh would just read like bad Klingon to me ... but then, I am probably biased. |
| George Krashos |
Posted - 04 Apr 2012 : 03:02:11
quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
Steve, if that's the worst you had to endure then you got off pretty lucky, my DMs and players are relentlessly punny. I suppose some of the most prominent names in the game have anagrammed, punned, or downright dull name inspirations and minor homages ... Mordenkainen = Minion Drake? Elminster = Ed's Minister? Krashos Morueme = Grandmaster George, etc. The names in Netheril are really no better or worse than any other, being based off old bands doesn't really change Netheril in any way, at least Slade didn't name the Pun-Pun Scrolls.
I did ask Eric to use an anagram - something simple like Karsosh would have been better ... 
He was on a tear in DDGttU however - it's probably got more in jokes than any other product I'm aware of.
-- George Krashos
|
| Ayrik |
Posted - 03 Apr 2012 : 23:55:01
Steve, if that's the worst you had to endure then you got off pretty lucky, my DMs and players are relentlessly punny. I suppose some of the most prominent names in the game have anagrammed, punned, or downright dull name inspirations and minor homages ... Mordenkainen = Minion Drake? Elminster = Ed's Minister? Krashos Morueme = Grandmaster George, etc. The names in Netheril are really no better or worse than any other, being based off old bands doesn't really change Netheril in any way, at least Slade didn't name the Pun-Pun Scrolls. |
| Lord Karsus |
Posted - 03 Apr 2012 : 22:18:25
-The worst was when, in a game I was in, we were betrayed by a woman who we had befriended going into a dungeon, or abandoned cave, or whatever it was, named Nogardama. |
| Ayrik |
Posted - 02 Apr 2012 : 20:07:29
Aye, many adventurers in original D&D fell to gibbering populations of endlessly anagrammed punishments which inhabited Kraywheg and other worlds. I personally think it's just part of the unofficial inexplicable weirdness that is D&D, an unwritten Monty Python rule, in fact it's something that later game editions gradually lost with each translation away from the High Gygaxian tongue spoken by their elders.
So it's no surprise to me that a few 2E products feebly attempted to mimic the Old Ways, especially during those wildly vacillating times preceding the long Dark Age. If that means sneaking in some awful half-hidden references to mundane groaners then so be it ... most DMs of the Gygax era, true to their nerdly wargaming pedigree, were masters of this dark art. Most DMs of following generations lost these skills, they could still be bad but only very badly. |
| Jorkens |
Posted - 02 Apr 2012 : 11:48:01
What Gary did fit the world he was doing it in, Greyhawk. Anagrams and puns fitted naturally in to that world, as the "Real world" elements fitted Known World/Mystara. And because of that I don't think Gary's style was ever a problem unless you took the whole thing far to seriously. The Netheril references here didn't fit the world or the product they were included in at all.
All of this in my always humble opinion of course. |
| Lord Karsus |
Posted - 01 Apr 2012 : 15:48:00
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Don't EVER bad-mouth Gary Gygax around me. The sandbox we all love and play in - the Realms - is just one place inside of Gary's even bigger sandbox. The man changed the way we play games, and modern computer & console games even owe him a huge debt.
And if you think Gary was such a bad guy, just look up Keoghtom's Ointment (the real history behind the name, and why he created this magical item). IIRC, the story is in the final issue of the real Dragon magazine (I say 'real' because magazines are made of paper - that other thing is just a website). Most of those early names were part of the 'inside joke' between him, Dave Arneson, and his players, and I respect that - they started it all.
It only annoys me when it came later, after D&D matured and became AD&D - then that sort of narcissism/nepotism should have stopped. Its jarring when you are reading an FR/D&D source and come across a RW reference - it degrades the immersion factor.
-How does this change the fact that Gary Gygax was the worst in terms of doing what we're discussing? |
| The Sage |
Posted - 01 Apr 2012 : 01:45:12
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Actually, Jorkens, I have no knowledge of a group called 'Slade', but he was a rather cool (but despicable) villain in the Teen Titans anime series. I picture our Slade like that. I think he finally went to hell... and then came back... you can't keep a good 'bad-guy' down. (something that came up in another thread - its okay when villains do it).
Deathstroke the Realmsinator?
Oh, Markus, you get points for that. |
| Markustay |
Posted - 01 Apr 2012 : 00:27:42
Actually, Jorkens, I have no knowledge of a group called 'Slade', but he was a rather cool (but despicable) villain in the Teen Titans anime series. I picture our Slade like that. I think he finally went to hell... and then came back... you can't keep a good 'bad-guy' down. (something that came up in another thread - its okay when villains do it).
quote:
Originally posted by Lord Karsus
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Gary Gygax did this A LOT, but it it is an 'inside joke' - more of a homage to his original players. Thats fine. Slade just rubs me the wrong way entirely (mostly by ignoring Ed's Netheril notes almost completely).
-Ugh, Gary Gygax is/was the worst. How many derivatives of 'Gary Gygax' are there? Seven? Eight?
Don't EVER bad-mouth Gary Gygax around me. The sandbox we all love and play in - the Realms - is just one place inside of Gary's even bigger sandbox. The man changed the way we play games, and modern computer & console games even owe him a huge debt.
And if you think Gary was such a bad guy, just look up Keoghtom's Ointment (the real history behind the name, and why he created this magical item). IIRC, the story is in the final issue of the real Dragon magazine (I say 'real' because magazines are made of paper - that other thing is just a website). Most of those early names were part of the 'inside joke' between him, Dave Arneson, and his players, and I respect that - they started it all.
It only annoys me when it came later, after D&D matured and became AD&D - then that sort of narcissism/nepotism should have stopped. Its jarring when you are reading an FR/D&D source and come across a RW reference - it degrades the immersion factor. |
| Jorkens |
Posted - 30 Mar 2012 : 10:47:27
quote:
Originally posted by Quale
I like the name Opus...
Now there is a band I personally dislike. |
| Quale |
Posted - 30 Mar 2012 : 07:58:07
I like the name Opus, tough that name would fit better for a city of Jhaamdath. |
| Lord Karsus |
Posted - 29 Mar 2012 : 15:50:52
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
I wonder, though, why some don't have translations at all, and simply retained their Loross names, like Sakkors and Jockteleg. The latter should have been called Quantoul's Enclave. [Could Quantoul's popularity (lesser than most archwizards whose enclaves are known by their names, e.g. Karsus and Ioulaum) have to do with it?]
-That is probably simply a metagame shift in naming conventions. The Netheril box set pretty much only uses the "translations", while sources that have been written since- especially in 3e- have gone back and forth between the two (when applicable). |
| Jorkens |
Posted - 29 Mar 2012 : 07:18:24
quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
Fair enough.
It is, after all, impossible to please all of the people all of the time. Especially over an audience which spans several decades and game editions. This even applies to Ed Greenwood.
And the dumbest thing WotC could do, in my opinion, would be to listen to grumblers like me. |
| Dennis |
Posted - 29 Mar 2012 : 07:14:28
I was referring to the time before the Fall. Eileanar was also known as Karsus' Enclave, then; and Xinlenal, Ioulaum's Enclave. |
| Ayrik |
Posted - 29 Mar 2012 : 06:29:54
Sakkors literally disappeared from the face of Toril after Netheril's Fall, lost and forgotten to Faerûn's historians, then reappeared only through the actions of the Shadovar. It's logical for them to refer to Sakkors by the name that was passed to them through history (in their own language) rather than invent a Common/English name like "New Shade" or "Sunken Enclave", and it's their uncontested property so nobody else is really entitled to name it.
I suppose they might choose to name Jockteleg as Quantoul's Enclave if Quantoul was still around or was an archwizard of particular note. If Jiksidur ever rose to the skies again they might call it Larloch's Enclave. |
| Dennis |
Posted - 29 Mar 2012 : 06:05:43
quote:
Originally posted by Lord Karsus
quote:
Originally posted by Quale
I prefer old Netherese names, e.g. City of Shade more than Thulthantar, and other english ones
-I generally use "City of Shade", or "Karsus' Enclave" more than the Netherese 'translations', and only really see problems when people use the two in conjunction- certain places have "basic" names only, while others have "Netherese" names.
I suppose most people do. The English/Common translations are easier to remember. I wonder, though, why some don't have translations at all, and simply retained their Loross names, like Sakkors and Jockteleg. The latter should have been called Quantoul's Enclave. [Could Quantoul's popularity (lesser than most archwizards whose enclaves are known by their names, e.g. Karsus and Ioulaum) have to do with it?] |
| Ayrik |
Posted - 28 Mar 2012 : 23:07:20
Back in those days characters were just a lot less serious. People generally didn't spend a lot of time building their characters because long odds were stacked against them and the vast majority of characters didn't last long; a fair chunk of the party would die every adventuring session. So characters with silly names like Melf the Elf and backgrounds limited to quick sentences along the lines of "the youngest son of a landless knight" were common and sufficient. If your character survived the low-level culling then you'd begin to add depth beyond mere game mechanics - in some ways this was superior to current methods because your character grew in interesting ways, he was really built more from his most memorable lowbie experiences and what he brought to the table. These days character death is averted as much as possible, largely because many hours and many pages are often invested into characters before they even enter play. It used to be a character sheet, now it's often a character binder thicker than the original D&D rulebooks.
I personally think this is primarily because early D&D (and early RPGs in general) were an evolution of war gaming, where adversarial competition among players was simply designed within the game itself - Players-vs-DM was just the natural progression and dying "with style" was something of a rewarding goal, nobody was really bothered much about it because our current RPG sophistications hadn't yet even been invented. Grognardia has many excellent articles (and a forum) summarizing the attitudes of Gygax-era D&D quite well. |
| Lord Karsus |
Posted - 28 Mar 2012 : 20:52:18
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Gary Gygax did this A LOT, but it it is an 'inside joke' - more of a homage to his original players. Thats fine. Slade just rubs me the wrong way entirely (mostly by ignoring Ed's Netheril notes almost completely).
-Ugh, Gary Gygax is/was the worst. How many derivatives of 'Gary Gygax' are there? Seven? Eight? |
| Ayrik |
Posted - 28 Mar 2012 : 19:48:27
Fair enough.
It is, after all, impossible to please all of the people all of the time. Especially over an audience which spans several decades and game editions. This even applies to Ed Greenwood. |
| Jorkens |
Posted - 28 Mar 2012 : 19:30:13
I do ignore it. And at the same time I have to ignore a huge part of the Realms, as you said, the material has been pretty essential for later developments. I am OK with that, but it keeps me from seeing a lot of speculations from both fans and designers that might be a lot more interesting, in addition to blocking me from hearing Ed’s original ideas. That’s why I said I would prefer no published Netheril over this version.
Ah, don't mind me. Its just my usual bad tempered grumbling. |
| Ayrik |
Posted - 28 Mar 2012 : 18:22:04
If you find the material objectionable then why not simply ignore it? |
| Jorkens |
Posted - 28 Mar 2012 : 17:53:42
quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
But however they're assigned, the names are names and they now designate specific things. So published Netheril is different from Ed's Netheril, it's still Netheril and all told (I think) it's pretty good. People discuss mythallars, Karsus, Larloch, and the Shadovar endlessly; even if none of these were created within Ed's original vision of Netheril. If Slade didn't write up Netheril then either we wouldn't have Netheril at all (which would be bad) or Ed would have to write it ... well Ed's always working on writing something, so if he had to write Netheril then he wouldn't written something else (which would also be bad). I don't think I would choose to trade if the price of a "better" (or at least different) Netheril was, say, one of Volo's Guides.
I think we will just have to agree to disagree there. I would rather have no published Netheril. I prefer nothing to something I don't like, as it then at least is open to ones own interpretation. Netheril was a mystical source of magic and wonder that simmered in the back of my mind until that bloody box appeared. I still cant insert the elements into the Realms in my mind. I might not like Ed's version either, but at least that would have an interest for me as a part of the settings historic development. |
| Jorkens |
Posted - 28 Mar 2012 : 17:47:21
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Sorry Jorkens - my comment was biased (against Slade). I have listened to Deep Purple when I was younger (and they were current), but I feel like he has sullied them now. Isn't it weird how your attitudes can change about something, just because of an association to something else?
You need to go listen to In Rock again to clear your head of these thoughts.
And I have to ask then, how is your relationship to the band Slade? |
| Ayrik |
Posted - 28 Mar 2012 : 16:34:49
Well, when you boil it all down in the crucible of objectivity ... the Realms are a fictional setting and every name in every Realms product is entirely fictional, some are invented fabrications and others are reinvented inspirations. By now the names of people and places and things in the Realms probably have more "inside" references than all other D&D products combined, given the sheer number of contributing authors it's impossible to ever know them all - some are admirable tokens of homage or respect, others are fundamentally lame.
But however they're assigned, the names are names and they now designate specific things. So published Netheril is different from Ed's Netheril, it's still Netheril and all told (I think) it's pretty good. People discuss mythallars, Karsus, Larloch, and the Shadovar endlessly; even if none of these were created within Ed's original vision of Netheril. If Slade didn't write up Netheril then either we wouldn't have Netheril at all (which would be bad) or Ed would have to write it ... well Ed's always working on writing something, so if he had to write Netheril then he wouldn't written something else (which would also be bad). I don't think I would choose to trade if the price of a "better" (or at least different) Netheril was, say, one of Volo's Guides.
More to the point: Ed is still in the game and always creating more Realmslore, some of which is always about Netheril. He's able to accept the "bad" names and move forward, he's able to insert bits of his vision (original or new recipe) into published Netheril lore. |
| Markustay |
Posted - 28 Mar 2012 : 16:16:27
*meh*
One of the very few things that ever irked me in the Greyhawk setting was hepMONAland, which was nod to Erik Mona (not sure if it was his idea).
I don't mind people sneaking this stuff in, but only if it fits the setting (and very little of the Netherese box fit the setting, IMO), and if it is about someone else (and preferably someone NOT famous).
Gary Gygax did this A LOT, but it it is an 'inside joke' - more of a homage to his original players. Thats fine. Slade just rubs me the wrong way entirely (mostly by ignoring Ed's Netheril notes almost completely).
Sorry Jorkens - my comment was biased (against Slade). I have listened to Deep Purple when I was younger (and they were current), but I feel like he has sullied them now. Isn't it weird how your attitudes can change about something, just because of an association to something else?
I thought the enclave-names were taken form song-titles, but obviously I was way off base with that one.
Some of them sound like they'd make good song titles, though... especially New Age. |
| Lord Karsus |
Posted - 28 Mar 2012 : 15:02:52
quote:
Originally posted by Quale
I prefer old Netherese names, e.g. City of Shade more than Thulthantar, and other english ones
-I generally use "City of Shade", or "Karsus' Enclave" more than the Netherese 'translations', and only really see problems when people use the two in conjunction- certain places have "basic" names only, while others have "Netherese" names. |
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