| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Galuf the Dwarf |
Posted - 06 Mar 2012 : 02:58:43
Okay, so we can essentially confirm the following were formally mortal:
- Azuth
- Bane
- Bhaal
- Cyric
- Finder Wvyernspur
- Fzoul Chembryl (post-Spellplague)
- Gargauth (if you count being a devil as mortal)
- Kelemvor
- Myrkul
- Mystra (in her Midnight incarnation)
- Obould Many-Arrows (post-Spellplague)
- Uthgar
- Velsharoon
Some that are believed to be former mortals:
- Deep Duerra
- Gwaeron Windstrom
- Shevarash
- The Red Knight
- Torm
Can anyone confirm sources that confirm the latter, or even more than that? I swore I saw an entry in the Grand History of the Realms that confirmed Deep Duerra, but I can't vouch for that. That, and I'm a little busy with household responsibilities as of late, especially since my brother getting married next month.  |
| 30 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 04 Jan 2013 : 16:03:19
quote:
Originally posted by LordofBones
I like that Velsharoon write-up. It's a creative take on him I haven't seen before, and the Skull Staff looks really cool.
Thanks. I've really liked binders ever since I saw them. I've discussed wanting to run a campaign during the rise of Thay one day, and if I did Velsharoon would head up a faction of necromancers, binders, and anima mages, and they will have found a means to bind the vestige of Thayd (thus why he became popular) and were studying lore from the Theurgist Adepts. My viewpoint is that the lack of these binders in present day Thay has to do with the rise of the Zulkirs (who hunted them down to secure their rule).
On a similar note, while I was doing Velsharoon, I also did another former red wizard that I had felt was possibly a tenuous ally of his (i.e. Zhengyi). For Zhengyi though, rather than going dread necromancer, I had him be a warlock serving Orcus (so 20th lvl as a wizard, 19th lvl "casting" as a warlock, and 11th lvl binder doing 6th lvl vestiges). An interesting side note here, due to his typical bindings, Zhengyi possesses two big tusks and a very hollow/guttural voice.... which ironically given the number of goblinoids serving him may have given him added respect (i.e. he's a big skull with tusks and a jutting lower jaw).
Zhengyi the Witch-King
5th wizard (necromancer) (2 lvls after lvl 20) / 3rd warlock / 10th eldritch theurge / 1st binder / 10th anima mage (last 3 lvls go to warlock not wizard) / 1st geometer (go to warlock not wizard)
lich template
spell-stitched template
spells as lvl 20 as wizard (opposition schools, enchantment and illusion)
invocation/eldritch blast using as 19 warlock
binder as 11th lvl binder (but up to 6th lvl vestiges due to improved binding)
STR 10 base = 14 total = +4 enhancement
DEX 14 base = 18 total = +4 enhancement
CON null - undead
INT 21 (31)base = 37 total = +6 enhancement +5 inherent from wishes + 3 age +2 lich
WIS 10 (15)base = 21 total = +6 enhancement + 3 age +2 lich
CHAR 18 (27)base = 33 total = +6 enhancement +4 inherent from wishes + 3 age +2 lich
Feats (12) - craft wondrous item, improved binding, craft contingent spell, spell mantle, reaping spell, spell focus (necromancy), greater spell focus (necromancy), corpsecrafter, destruction retribution, improved spell capacity (10th lvl), improved spell capacity (11th lvl), epic spellcasting
bonus feats from wizard: scribe scroll, enervate spell
AC +35 (+39 if shield spell up) total = +4 dex +9 armor +5 natural armor from lich +2 insight from prescience +5 deflection
AC v/s incorporeal touch attack +30 (+34 if shield up)
HP 30d12 = 210 Init +6 total = +4 dex +2 insight from prescience
BAB +13 total = +1 wiz +2 warlock + 5 eld thg + 5 epic
Eldritch Blast 10d6 (ranged touch attack, range 60 feet)
Paralyzing Touch 1d8+5 negative energy dmg (will save 1/2 DC 36) + paralysis (Fort save DC = 36 total = 10 + 1/2 hit dice + 11 CHAR)
FORT +20 total = +1 wiz +1 warl + 3 eld th +2 binder +1 anima +5 epic +5 resistance +2 profane from spell-stitched
REFLEX +35 total = +4 dex +1 wiz +1 warl + 3 eld th +1 anima +5 epic +5 resistance +2 profane from spell-stitched (+11 luck bonus from Dark One's Own Luck eq CHAR bonus) (+2 insight from prescience)
WILL +35 total = +5 wisdom +3 wiz +3 warl + 7 eld th +2 binder +3 anima +5 epic +5 resistance +2 profane from spell-stitched
Immunities - undead immunities, cold, electricity, polymorph, mind-affecting attacks
Special Notes: evasion from ring of evasion, and able to move through freedom of movement
Damage Reductions: DR 5/cold iron (warlock), DR 15/bludgeoning and magic(lich), DR 5/ magic and silver (spell-stitched), DR 10/magic (kiss of the vampire)
Spell Resistance: 21 total = 10 + Char modifier Turn Resistance: + 6 turn resistance (+4 lich +2 spell-stitched)
Senses: has blindsense, scent, deathwatch, and can see in normal and magic darkness due to below abilities
wizard spells (caster lvl 20th) (DC 23+ spell lvl or 25 + spell lvl v/s necromancy)
0-lvl ( 4 + 1 necromancy)
1-lvl ( 7 + 1 necromancy, or 14 +2 nec through ringof wiz) shield x5, magic missile x2, ectoplasmic armor
2-lvl ( 7 + 1 necromancy, or 14 +2 nec through ringof wiz) death armor x3
3-lvl ( 6 + 1 necromancy, or 12 +2 nec through ringof wiz) non-detection, vampiric touch, magic circle against evil
4-lvl ( 6 + 1 necromancy) Otiluke's suppressing field, dimensional anchor,
5-lvl ( 6 + 1 necromancy, or 12 +2 nec through ringof wiz) overland flight, fire shield, mestil's acid sheath, lesser planar binding
6-lvl ( 6 + 1 necromancy) contingency, planar binding
7-lvl ( 5 + 1 necromancy) retributive enervation (CM), blackfire (CA)
8-lvl ( 5 + 1 necromancy) Greater Planar Binding, horrid wilting
9-lvl ( 5 + 1 necromancy) Chain contingency, wail of the banshee
10-lvl ( + 1 necromancy)
11-lvl ( +1 necromancy)
Contingent spells through spells: Contingency spell (teleport if dropped below 40 hit points)
Chain Contingency (varies)
Contingent spells through Craft Contingent Spells (NOTE: spell mantle feat allows these to be cast as a standard action if he needs. Note, the below are the common contingencies that he crafts, but whenever heading into a known danger, he often creates additional contingencies <particularly attack spells that he can release with spell mantle or have auto released on attackers>):
If attacked in melee combat and hit- death armor (magic of faerun)
If attacked in melee combat and hit - shield spell
if attacked by a magic missile spell - shield spell
If attacked by a fire effect - fire shield (chill shield)
if attacked by a dispel magic effect - ethereal jaunt
If attacking in melee combat using his touch attack - undead torch (magic of faerun)
if attacked in melee combat and hit while modestly wounded (75% of max health) - fire shield (chill shield)
if attacked in melee combat and hit while modestly wounded (75% of max health) - mestil's acid sheath (PGtF)
if attacked in melee combat and hit while half-dead (50% of max health) - karmic backlash (complete mage)
if attacked in melee combat and hit while half-dead (50% of max health) - spore cloak (underdark)
if attacked in melee combat and hit while half-dead (50% of max health) - prismatic aura (complete mage)
if attacked in melee combat and hit while half-dead (50% of max health) - retributive enervation (complete mage)
if attacked in melee combat and hit while half-dead (50% of max health) - horrid wilting, centered upon his person
if attacked in melee combat and hit while severely wounded (25% of max health) - karmic retribution (complete mage)
if attacked in melee combat and hit while severely wounded (25% of max health) - wail of the banshee
if near death (10% of max health - remember he can release this earlier using spell mantle) - prismatic sphere
if he has no undead within 200 feet which are under his control - create greater undead (devourer)
if he has no undead within 200 feet which are under his control - create undead (morhg)
spell-stitched spells per day: magic missile (x2), know protections (x2), scent (already cast), snilloc's snowball swarm (x3), greater magic weapon(already cast), magic circle against evil, caligarde's claw, dimensional anchor
Warlock Invocations:
Least Eldritch Spear - Blast range increases to 250 feet.
Dark One's Own Luck - Gain a luck bonus on one type of saves (uses this daily for luck bonus on reflex saves)
Devil's Sight - See normally in darkness and magical darkness.
Lesser Mask of Flesh - Touch attack imposes ld6 Cha penalty and transforms you to look like target.
Eldritch Chain - Blast jumps from initial target to secondary targets.
Flee the Scene - Use short-range dimension door as the spell, and leave behind a major image.
Spell Blast (from eldritch theurge eldritch essence invocation) - put an area effect spell into an eldritch blast
Greater Eldritch Cone - Blast takes the shape of a cone.
Vitriolic Blast (eldritch essence) - Blast ignores spell resistance and deals acid damage for several rounds. NOTE: used with eldritch spellweave at times
Devour Magic: Use targeted greater dispel magic with a touch and gain temporary hit points based on the level of spells successfully dispelled.
Great Reach Blast (from eldritch theurge eldritch essence invocation) - put a touch spell into an eldritch blast
Dark Eldritch Doom - Blast affects all enemies within 20 feet.
Retributive Invisibility - Use greater invisibility as the spell (self only) that deals damage in a burst if dispelled.
Typical Bindings (chupoclops and Balam, with Dantalion in vestige phylactery )
Balam (note, must display sign, so voice gains a peculiar quality, becoming hollow and guttural)
Balam's Cunning - You can reroll on attack, save, or skill check. Must wait 5 rounds between uses
Icy Glare - gaze attack, 2d6 cold
Prescience - +2 insight bonus to init, reflex saves, and AC
Weapon Finesse - as the feat
Chupoclops (note, must display sign, so lower jaw is increased and two tusks grow upward from it)
Aura of Despair - every creature within 10 feet takes -2 penalty on attack rolls, checks, saves, and weapon dmg rolls. You can suppress this. This is a mind-affecting fear ability (and therefore doesn't affect undead)
Ethereal Watcher - as a move action, become ethereal. Stay ethereal as long as you take no actions, you return to material plane after taking a move, standard, or full-round action. must delay 5 rounds between uses.
Ghost Touch - your melee attacks strike incorporeal creatures
Poison Bite - (this one is always given up for a high lvl spell using exploit visage)
Pounce - if you charge a foe, you can make a full attack at the end of the charge
Soulsense - locate living creatures within 10 feet as if having blindsense and deathwatch up (and detect their strength and type). This is continuously active.
Skills: (281 points)
concentration (con) 33 total = 33 ranks
Decipher Script (int) 46 total = 33 ranks + 13 int
Disable Device (dex) 16 total = 4 ranks +4 dex +8 from lich
Hide (dex) 12 total = 0 ranks +4 dex +8 from lich
Intimidate (cha) 15 total = 4 ranks + 11 char
Knowledge (arcana) (int) 46 total = 33 ranks + 13 int
Knowledge (dungeoneering) (int) 20 total = 7 ranks + 13 int
Knowledge (geography) (int) 15 total = 2 ranks + 13 int
Knowledge (history) (int) 46 total = 33 ranks + 13 int
Knowledge (local, Thay) (int) 20 total = 7 ranks + 13 int
Knowledge (local, Vaasa) (int) 20 total = 7 ranks + 13 int
Knowledge (local, Damara) (int) 20 total = 7 ranks + 13 int
Knowledge (local, Impiltur) (int) 15 total = 2 ranks + 13 int
Knowledge (local, The Great Dale) (int) 15 total = 2 ranks + 13 int
Knowledge (local, Rashemen) (int) 15 total = 2 ranks + 13 int
Knowledge (local, Narfell) (int) 20 total = 7 ranks + 13 int
Knowledge (local, the Moonsea) (int) 15 total = 2 ranks + 13 int
Knowledge (nature) (int) 15 total = 2 ranks + 13 int
Knowledge (nobility & royalty) (int) 20 total = 7 ranks + 13 int
Knowledge (religion) (int) 25 total = 12 ranks + 13 int
Knowledge (the planes) (int) 35 total = 22 ranks + 13 int
Listen (wis) 18 total = 0 ranks+ 10 wis +8 from lich
Move Silently (dex) 12 total = 0 ranks +4 dex +8 from lich
Search (int) 21 total = 0 ranks + 13 int +8 from lich
Sense Motive (wis) 14 total = 6 ranks +8 from lich
Spellcraft (int) 50 total = 33 ranks+13 int +4 synergy
Speak Language (Imaskari, Thorass, Aragrakh, Netherese, Nar) 8 ranks
Spot (wis) 18 total = 0 ranks +10 wis +8 from lich
Use Magic Device(cha) +17 total = 6 ranks + 11 char
Languages: Imaskari, Thorass, Aragrakh, Netherese, Nar, Damaran, Rashemi, Mulhorandi variant (i.e. Thayan), abyssal, infernal, draconic, giant, gnoll, goblin, orc, common, elven, dwarven
special Abilities:
detect magic - at will from warlock
fiendish resilience 2 - once/day as a free action, gain fast healing 2 for 2 minutes
eldritch spellweave - (3 + char mod) times per day, apply eldritch essence invocation to a targeted or ranged touch attack spell that deals damage (i.e. vitriolic blast). Spell must be at least 6th lvl since vitriolic blast is a 6th lvl eldritch essence invocation
exploit vestige - give up one vestige ability to get a free max lvl spell
vestigial awareness - when make good pact, get +2 to init
vestige metamagic 3/day - give up power of a vestige for a round to add metamagic effect to a spell, typically used to add reaping spell to spells which he believes will slay an enemy that he doesn't want returning.
vestige casting - once /day cast a memorized spell as an immediate action as if the spell was silent and stilled
Glyph of Warding: A geometer adds glyph of warding to his spellbook as a 3rd-level arcane spell. He can prepare and cast the spell just like any other spell he knows.
Spellglyph (Su): A spellglyph is an arcane diagram that substitutes for a specific spell’s verbal and material components (if any). When a geometer casts a prepared spell in conjunction with a spellglyph scribed for that spell, he can cast the spell as if it were affected by the Silent Spell feat. The spellglyph replaces any material components
(other than a focus) normally required by the spell. A geometer chooses at the time of casting whether to use a spellglyph. An expended spellglyph disappears, just like
any other material component. Spellglyphs are normally scribed on parchment, much like scrolls. Preparing a spellglyph requires 1 hour and the use of rare inks costing 25 gp per spell level. If the spell normally requires an expensive material component (with a value of more than 1 gp), exotic inks and treatments of equal cost must be used in the preparation of the spellglyph.
Magic Items:
crown of intellect, wisdom +6
cloak of charisma +6
gauntlets of str and dex +4
cloak of protection and resistance +5 (+5 deflection to AC, +5 resist to saves)
implements of binding +8 (+8 to binding checks)
adamantine battle axe +1 (+5 through greater magic weapon) skillful, dancing
chasuble of fell power, greater (this gives +2d6 to eldritch blast) & undead mastery (as from rod of undead mastery,allows him to control 8 HD of undead per lvl)
vestige phylactery (typically contains vestige of Dantalion)
mithril chain shirt +5 twilight
ring of evasion
ring of wizardry I, II, III, and V (doubles 1st lvl, 2nd lvl, 3rd lvl, and 5th lvl spells)
belt of freedom of movement
boots of striding and springing
3 seals of the visage (Balam, Chupoclops, and Dantalion)
wand of inflict light wounds
in addition, Zhengyi will have access to potions, scrolls, wands and staves, as well as various "utilitarian" magic items such as bags of holding, etc..
Servants:
Demons: Zhengyi is always accompanied by at least 4 demons (a marilith and a glabrezu whom he keeps on protection duty, and a succubus whom he keeps for subversive missions against low level but influential targets, and a dretch that he summons along with the marilith just so they have something to punish for fun), and should they die or be banished and he has a chance to summon new demons he will.
Undead: Zhengyi will always be accompanied by a variety of undead (the design of which is left up to the DM). It is recommended that this inner circle of undead have character levels to round out his group (for instance, a spectral mage, perhaps a mummy priest of Orcus, a vampiric fighter, a ghost rogue with ghost touch armor/weapons, etc... and perhaps a number of frost giant skeletons that have been awakened through awaken undead). Note that due to his character level and chasuble, he is able to control a total of 240 HD of undead, but he will never have more than 80 HD with him, leaving 40 HD of undead to guard his most inner sanctums, and 120 HD of undead guarding various other portions of his empire (he is particularly favored of spectres, powerful umbral creatures (see Libris Mortis), and Morhg's since they can control additional undead)
|
| Markustay |
Posted - 04 Jan 2013 : 13:38:51
The idea is to fix the mistakes, the way they had the old 'no-prize' thing in Marvel comics (when fans came up with logical explanations for continuity gaffs).
Yes, if all I was doing was trying to fix the original Teylas problem, then Occam's razor would apply. However, the matter was further complicated by the 4e lore, and my favorite thing to do is use one problem to fix another (causing them to cancel-out).
It IS a simple solution: Primordials DON'T bother with religion. Other gods handle their portfolios. Done. |
| LordofBones |
Posted - 04 Jan 2013 : 04:51:49
I like that Velsharoon write-up. It's a creative take on him I haven't seen before, and the Skull Staff looks really cool. |
| Ayrik |
Posted - 04 Jan 2013 : 00:38:58
That's edging into pedantic arguments about definition and terminology. For example: if there is an "author" for our universe, any mistakes he might make are still part of our universe.
Although yes, people can make mistakes in any universe. In the Realms there are also all sorts of local hybrid aspect deities, even a few interloping foreign deities, and a pattern of certain deities frequently impersonating others to further their own plots. |
| Chosen of Asmodeus |
Posted - 04 Jan 2013 : 00:27:57
That can be easily rectified by saying someone in universe made a mistake in identifying Teylas as Akadi. An author making a mistake out of universe doesn't make that mistake true in universe. |
| Ayrik |
Posted - 04 Jan 2013 : 00:18:52
I thought it was implicitly understood that some author/designer made a mistake, and the purpose of this discussion was to figure out how to make that mistake consistently fit within the lore?
Interestingly, Tyr is actually the perfect Skyfather archetype, and contrary to the (Christian) records of Norse religions, some interpretations of Norse mythology accept Tyr as mightier than Odin, apparently the majority of Germanic and Slavic (pagan) religions preferred a version of Tyr over a version of Odin/Thor. In the Realms, however, Tyr is a bit of a predictable and pitiful weakling, apparently so blinded by an obsession with perfect Law that he's become something of the half-useless god of belligerent lawyers and bureaucrats rather than an icon of truth and justice.
I think this is a symptom of the same problem which affected Leira: authors tend to characterize (and caricaturize) only the most obviously relevant (and convenient) narrow personality extremes when dealing with godlike beings who are supposed to be complex and multifaceted superhuman entities. Tyr has far more dimension than what is published in Realmslore, his priests (and laws, and wisdom, and justice) govern the day to day lives of countless people all across Faerûn ... I think Leira was also far more significant than the few paragraphs in the sourcebooks can convey. |
| Chosen of Asmodeus |
Posted - 04 Jan 2013 : 00:05:58
I don't know, Marky-Mark. Seems a little too complicated to me. I prefer Occam's Razor; the simplest solution is that someone made a mistake, whether in-universe or in real life.
Talos-Gruumsh and Chauntea already fit into the Skyfather/Earthmother archetypes(granted, without being connected in the faerunian pantheon) without cosigning with the elemental lords. |
| Markustay |
Posted - 03 Jan 2013 : 23:42:48
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Chosen of Asmodeus
Granted, we are so far beyond this post that me bringing this up is practically a moot point, but I'm gonna do it anyway.
It seems more likely to me that the identifying Teylas with Akadi is simply an in-universe mistake along the lines of the Romans identifying Odin with Mercury of all people.
Though whatever the case, the Teylas=Talos(and therefore, Gruumsh) connection is the one I use(or rather, strongly hint at) in my own realms.
Until I saw it noted elsewhere that Teylas was Akadi, I assumed Teylas was a regional name for Talos. It makes more sense, especially since we first see the name is when Hoekun Yamun Kahan is out in a storm being struck by lightning. Also, his nature seems well-suited to being a follower of Talos.
My own personal 'fix' was something I was mulling over in the old Utter East thread (at the WotC boards), and after all the fallout from 4e was over (sort-of) an I started thinking about how to use the new lore, I realize that my thinking on the 4e elemental lords (now primordials) dovetailed perfectly with the Akadi/Teylas problem.
Facts:
A) Primordials can't receive worship or grant spells, only deities can
b) All Elemental lords are primordials
c) Before 3e, we know they did grant spells
... or did they? 
So here's what I came up with: The Elemental Lords can't be bothered with faith - they are too alien to really interact with mortals. Deities, on the other hand, can, and are always trying to gain more power. Ergo, I propose that certain deities (at least four, and probably more) worked out a deal with the elemental lords - they would handle their portfolio in regards to worship and spells, and they would 'split the profits' (the divine energy that comes with having a church).
So Teylas = Akadi, but Teylas also = Talos, because Talos is handling her 'business' in the Hordelands. This is also why the Elemental Lord of Air is presented as a male figure in the Taan region.
Grumbar is represented by a female (and called Etugen), which could be an aspect of the Earthmother, some local power like Hro'nyewachu (an Archfey?), or some unknown eastern power.
So depending upon where in Toril you are, you could be praying to all different elemental gods, but its the 'big four' getting at least half the action. Gods are like mafia - someone always gets 'their cut'.
I also think Chauntea may work much the same way - the Earthmother having been a (possibly defunct) primordial, and Chauntea handles her business now. This isn't really very different to how saints/demigods work.
Wow... they have an 'upline'... like Amway. 
Heaven is just a big pyramid scheme! |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 03 Jan 2013 : 23:10:00
quote:
Originally posted by LordofBones
quote:
Originally posted by Galuf the Dwarf
Anyways, so here's what I thought would be appropriate levels for the formerly mortal deities I mentioned that were under 60+ HD, including some not presented at all in F&P:
- Bhaal: Rogue 20/Fighter 20/Assassin 10/Blackguard 10
- Deep Duerra: Fighter 20/Psion 20/Psychic Warrior 15/War Mind (XPH) 5
- Gwaeron Windstrom: Ranger 20/Fighter 20/Giant Hunter (MotW) 10/Giant-Killer (SM) 10
- Kelemvor: Fighter 20/Cleric 20/Rogue 10/Hunter of the Dead (CW) 10
- Myrkul: Necromancer 15/Dread Necromancer 20/Cleric 6/Archmage 5/True Necromancer (LM) 14
- Torm: Paladin 20/Knight 20 (PHB2)/Fighter 12/Cleric 8
- Uthgar: Barbarian 20/Ranger 20/Druid 10/Frenzied Berserker (CW) 10
- Velsharoon: Necromancer 20/Cleric 20/Red Wizard 10/Archmage 5/True Necromancer 5
More to come later.
I know I'm very, very late to the party, but as someone currently doing avatar stats for deities, the stats here just hit a chord in me. They kind of suffer from giving deities a bunch of class levels they don't need, from both a mechanical and flavour standpoint.
<snip to just the Velsharoon piece>
Velsharoon's the god of specialist wizards - necromancers specifically. He doesn't need cleric levels or True Necromancer levels, as those can simply be modeled with special abilities. I have his avatar as a Necromancer 25, Archmage 5, Master Necromancer 10, Arcane Lord 10 with the ability to command undead as a cleric of his HD and a desecrate aura, and also the ability to draw Necromancy spells from all spell lists. I also gave him some of the benefits of Red Wizardhood.
Since I know you like old Vel, I figured I'd share this. It was my take on him not as an avatar, but rather as a human before he enacted the ritual that turned him immortal/undead/godly. I specifically stayed away from any concept of him having divine spellcasting, as being one of the founding red wizards, I definitely see him as someone who wanted religion out of his way. However, I went a little different in that he's a non-specialist wizard who is also a member of the dread necromancer class. He's also a binder using the anima mage class, so his focus in life has been more on spirit based magics. The build makes him a 32nd lvl character, but since he was powerful enough to raise himself to godhood.... I didn't think this would be an unheard of power level (i.e. just slightly above Szass Tam who was one of his several enemies in life). It also made him able to memorize spells as a 20th lvl wizard (plus some extra epic spell slots) and 18th lvl dread necromancer, plus being the equivalent of an 11th lvl binder that can bind 6th lvl vestiges. I had also written up Thayd (i.e. the last Imaskari, and the man for which Thay was named) as a vestige.
Velsharoon the Vaunted, Lord of the Forsaken Crypt
5th wiz (note: 5th lvl gained after epic) / 1st dread necro/ 10th ultimate magus / 1st binder / 10th anima mage / 3rd loremaster / 2nd archmage
class level 32
STR 10 base 16 modified (+6 enhancement) <note: this may be higher if he's in a different body>
DEX 14 base 20 modified (+6 enhancement) <note: this may be higher if he's in a different body>
CON 12 base 18 modified (+6 enhancement) <note: this may be higher if he's in a different body>
INT 25 base 35 modified (+3 from aging , +4 inherent through wish, +6 enhancement)
WIS 13 base 19 modified (+3 from aging, +6 enhancement)
CHAR 20 base 29 modified (+3 from aging, +3 inherent through wish, +6 enhancement)
AC: total = 43 (note if wielding defending longsword this may change) = 10 + 4 armor bonus +4 shield bonus +5 dex + 5 enhance + 5 deflect +5 nat armor +2 insight +3 luck
NOTE: against incorporeal attacks, he has ectoplasmic armor up
BAB total = +16 / + 11 / + 6 / +1 = 2 (wiz) + 5 (Ultimate Magus) + 2 (anima mage) + 7 epic
Cold iron Longsword +1 (+5) dancing & defending +29/+24/+19/+14 dmg 1d8+9 ( +16 BAB +5 enhancement + 2 competence +3 strength +3 insight)
Adamantine Longsword +1 (+5) construct bane & undead bane & ghost touch +29/+24/+19/+14 dmg 1d8+9 ( +16 BAB +5 enhancement + 2 competence +3 strength +3 insight)
Skull Staff of Necromancer +1 (+5) unholy & vile & souldrinker & ghost touch & surestrike+27/+22/+17/+12 dmg 1d6+8 ( +16 BAB +5 enhancement +3 strength +3 insight)
FORT +25 (+30 v/s spells & spell-like) = +1 (wiz) +2 (binder) + 3 (UM) + 1 (AM) +6 (epic) +4 con +5 resist +3 insight +5 luck v/s spells & spell-like abilities
REFLEX +26 (+31 v/s spells & spell-like) = +1 (wiz) + 3 (UM) + 1 (AM) +6 (epic) +2 from loremaster secret +5 dex +5 resist +3 insight +5 luck v/s spells & spell-like abilities
WILL +27 (+32 spells/spell-like +29 divine enemies +34 divine wielding spells/spell-like) = 4 (wiz) + 2 (DN) + 3 (UM) + 6 (epic) + 4 wis +5 resist +3 insight +5 luck v/s spells & spell-like abilities +2 profane v/s divine
armor proficiency - light armor weapon proficiency - simple weapon, longsword
Wizard spells per day (caster level 24, due to spellpower +4)base wizard caster level = 20 (5 wiz + 7 ultimate magus + 8 anima mage)
Note: he typically uses certain spell slots to protect himself, and those are listed below
0-lvl (4)
1st-lvl (7) ectoplasmic armor, quickswim, shield (persistent via augmented casting), expeditious retreat (persistent via augmented casting)
2nd-lvl (7) death armor (persistent via augmented casting)
3rd-lvl (7) planar tolerance (from planar handbook)- not cast, but he keeps one handy, spell vulnerability (from planar handbook) not cast, but he keeps one handy
4th-lvl (6 <12 due to ring of wizardry>) fire shield (chillshield version) (persistent through vestige metamagic), greater magic weapon (extended) x2, Ilykur's mantle (persistent via augmented casting)
5th-lvl (6) - improved blink (persistent through vestige metamagic),
6th-lvl (6)-
7th-lvl (6) -
8th-lvl (5) - mind blank (cast every morning), lightning ring (persistent through vestige metamagic)
9th-lvl (5)
10th-lvl (2)
11th-lvl (2 + 1 additional spell slot from exploit visage)
Dread Necromancer spells per day (caster level 22, due to spellpower +4) base dread necro caster level = 18 (1 dread + 10 ultimate magus + 2 anima mage + 2 archmage + 3 loremaster)
1st-lvl (8 spontaneous spells from following list) Bane, bestow wound*, cause fear, chill touch, detect magic, detect undead, doom, hide from undead, infl ict light wounds, ray of enfeeblement, summon undead I*, undetectable alignment, magic missile (due to expanded knowledge)
2nd-lvl (8 spontaneous spells from following list) Blindness/deafness, command undead, darkness, death knell, false life, gentle repose, ghoul touch, inf lict moderate wounds, scare, spectral hand, summon swarm, summon undead II*, mirror image (due to expanded knowledge)
3rd-lvl (8 spontaneous spells from following list)Crushing despair, death ward, halt undead, inflict serious wounds, ray of exhaustion, speak with dead, summon undead III*, vampiric touch, dispel magic (due to expanded knowledge)
4th-lvl (8 spontaneous spells from following list) Animate dead, bestow curse, contagion, death ward, dispel magic, enervation, Evard’s black tentacles, fear, giant vermin, inflict critical wounds, phantasmal killer, poison, summon undead IV*, stoneskin (due to expanded knowledge)
5th-lvl (7 spontaneous spells from following list - NOTE: 4 uses gone using augmented casting ) Blight, cloudkill, fire in the blood*, greater dispel magic, insect plague, lesser planar binding, magic jar, mass inflict light wounds, nightmare, oath of blood*, slay living, summon undead V*, undeath to death, unhallow, waves of fatigue
6th-lvl (7 spontaneous spells from following list)Acid fog, circle of death, create undead, eyebite, geas/quest, harm, mass infl ict moderate wounds, planar binding, waves of exhaustion
7th-lvl (7 spontaneous spells from following list <now 6 one slot given up for arcane reach from archmage>) Control undead, destruction, finger of death, greater harm*, mass inflict serious wounds, song of discord, vile death*
8th-lvl (6 spontaneous spells from following list<now 5 one slot given up for arcane reach from archmage>) Create greater undead, horrid wilting, mass inflict critical wounds, symbol of death
9th-lvl (3 spontaneous spells from following list) Energy drain, imprison soul*, mass harm*, plague of undead*, wail of the banshee
*New spell (see Dread Magic, starting page 125).
base binder level = 11 typical bindings (binds 2 vestiges per day of up to 6th lvl, but uses exploit vestige on Balam )
Acererak (gives detect undead (at will), hide from undead (at will), lich's energy immunities (see above), speak with dead (at will), undead healing (negative energy heals rather than damaging)
Balam (gives Balam's Cunning (once per 5 rounds you can reroll a saving throw), icy glare (2d6 cold dmg gaze attack, will negates), prescience (+2 insight to initiative, reflex saves, and AC)
Feats - (12, note 3 are epic) - skill focus (gives +3 spellcraft), craft wondrous item, enervate spell, fell animate, acidic blast reserve feat, spell focus(necromancy), spell focus(invocation), greater spell focus (necromancy), improved binding, epic spellcasting (at lvl 24), improved spell capacity (10th lvl at lvl 27), improved spell capacity (11th lvl at lvl 30)
bonus feat from loremaster (note gained at epic levels) - improved metamagic (reduces metamagic spell level cost by 1)
bonus feat from wizard (note gained at epic levels) - scribe scroll, epic spell focus (necromancy)
bonus feats from ultimate magus - extend spell, persistent spell
bonus feat from having balam bound - weapon finesse (NOTE: this feat is usually given up using exploit visage)
skills - total = 227 = 20 wiz 1st + 15 wiz 2-4 + 5 dread nec + 15 (UM1-3) + 42 (UM 4-10) + 6 binder + 6 (AM 1) + 56 (AM 2-9) + 8 (AM 10) + 8 wiz 5 + 16 (archm) +30 (lorem)
bluff (cha) total = +19 = 10 base +9 cha
concentration (con) total = +39 = 35 base +4 con
craft alchemy (int) total = +15 = 3 base +12 int
decipher script (int) total = +31 = 19 base +12 int
gather information (cha) total = +29 = 20 base + 9 cha
intimidate (cha) total = +19 = 10 base +9 cha
knowledge (arcana) (int) total = +45 = 35 base +12 int
knowledge (dungeoneering) (int) total = +15 = 3 base +12 int
knowledge (history) (int) total = +22 = 10 base +12 int
knowledge (religion) (int) total = +22 = 10 base +12 int
knowledge (the planes) (int) total = +22 = 10 base +12 int
search (int) total = +25 = 8 base + 5 competence (goggles) + 12 int
sense motive (wis) total = 8 = 4 base +4 wis
spellcraft (int) total = 60 = 35 base +3 skill focus + 10 competence bonus + 12 int
use magic device (cha) total = 24 = 15 base + 9 cha
immunities - mind affecting & scrying (due to mind blank) , cold (from acererak binding), lightning (from acererak binding), magic missile (persistent shield spell), also note chill version of fireshield
Special abilities:
Lore - from loremaster, add 3 + int modifier to lore check
Secrets (from loremaster class) - +2 to reflex saves and bonus feat
exploit vestige - give up one vestige ability to get one spell of highest level, but take a -5 on binding attempt...
vestigial awareness - when you make a good pact, +2 to initiative for duration of pact
vestige metamagic 3/day - give up powers of a vestige for 5 rounds, apply any one metamagic feat to a spell
vestige casting 1/day - cast a spell as an immediate action as if modified by silent and still spell
rebuke undead from dread necromancer 11/day
augmented casting 8/day - give up spell from one arcane class to pay for metamagic on other class. Uses 4 uses per day persisting spells
High Arcana from archmage - arcane reach (uses up 7th lvl slot), elemental mastery (uses up 8th lvl slot)
Magic Items:
cloak of natural armor +5 and protection +5 (125,000),
Crown of Mystics <int enhancement +6 and wisdom enhancement +6 and competence skill bonus spellcraft +10> (105,000),
belt of dexterity +6 and strength +6 (90,000),
amulet of health +6 and charisma +6 (90,000),
ring of regeneration (90,000),
ring of wizardry IV (100,000),
mithril chain shirt +5 moderate fortification & twilight (81,000),
cold iron longsword +1 <+5 with greater magic weapon> dancing & defending & ghost touch (100,000),
adamantine longsword +1 <+5 with greater magic weapon> construct bane & undead bane & ghost touch (35,000),
3 wands of inflict light wounds (50 charges each),
bracers of longsword mastery, greater (+2 competence bonus to hit +1 dmg when using a longsword) (25,000) ,
lenses of night & insightful combat (gives darkvision 60', and +3 insight to saves, +3 insight bonus to hit) (75,000),
figurine of wondrous power: obsidian steed (28,500),
figurine of wondrous power: ebony fly (10,000),
vest of disguise & resistance +5 <gives +5 resistance bonus to saves and works as hat of disguise>(27,700),
gloves of storing & lucky misses <+3 luck bonus to AC, plus each glove can work as a glove of storing> (52,500),
boots of speed & winged (34,000),
staff of evocation (65000),
portable hole (20,000).
Artifact: Skull Staff of the necromancer (Imaskari artifact) - Powers of Skull Staff:
Spells: command undead at will, gentle repose at will, animate dead 3/day, create undead 2/day, control undead 2/day, finger of death 2/day
+1 quarterstaff, unholy, vile, souldrinker, ghost touch, sure striking <note +5 with greater magic weapon)
increases the number of hit dice of undead controllable by caster to 10 HD per caster level
The Skull Staff of the necromancer also functions as a Vestige Phylactery (see Tome of Magic) and a Soul Lens (see Tome of Magic)
The Skull Staff of the necromancer provides a +4 bonus to binding checks to bind a vestige (this bonus becomes +6 if binding Balam)
(Int 19 Wis 10 Char 19 AL NE Ego 31 Communication: speech, telepathy Senses: 120 ft darkvision, blindsense, and hearing
Languages: Abyssal, Infernal, Celestial, Draconic, Aragrakh (Old High Wyrm), Imaskari, Roushoum, Mulhorandi, Untheric and reads magic
Lesser powers: detect magic (at will), Staff has 10 ranks in Knowledge (religion), Knowledge (history:Imaskar),and Knowledge (the planes)
Greater powers: magic circle against good at will, fear 3/day
Special Purpose: Defeat/slay divine spellcasters Special Purpose Power: wielder gets +2 profane bonus on saves
The Skull Staff of the Necromancer is a powerful Imaskari artifact wielded by several Lord Artificers before the fall of Imaskar. It was constructed by a powerful anima mage named Murghos who very commonly bound the vestige known as Balam to himself. As a result, Murghos was influenced over time by Balam to hate the servants of the gods (even moreso than the norm for an Imaskari). Murghos created the Staff of the Necromancer as a tool with which to strike at his hated enemies. Over time, Murghos transformed himself into a lich, using the staff as his phylactery. After a few centuries more, Murghos felt his hold on this plane loosening and Murghos began the ritual to invest himself with even greater power as a demi-lich. However, something went wrong with the ritual sacrifice (some believe that the vestige of Balam that was in the staff's phylactery at the time had something to do with this) and Murghos' soul was wrenched into the place where Vestiges reside and the demi-lich's skull became fused to the staff (thus its new name of "The Skull Staff of Necromancers") . However, a small portion of Murghos' own sentience remained trapped in the staff, endowing it with even greater magical power and turning it into an artifact.
In addition to these items, at any given time Velsharoon will likely have access to numbers of scrolls, potions, wands, and staves.
|
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 03 Jan 2013 : 21:32:36
quote:
Originally posted by Chosen of Asmodeus
Granted, we are so far beyond this post that me bringing this up is practically a moot point, but I'm gonna do it anyway.
It seems more likely to me that the identifying Teylas with Akadi is simply an in-universe mistake along the lines of the Romans identifying Odin with Mercury of all people.
Though whatever the case, the Teylas=Talos(and therefore, Gruumsh) connection is the one I use(or rather, strongly hint at) in my own realms.
Until I saw it noted elsewhere that Teylas was Akadi, I assumed Teylas was a regional name for Talos. It makes more sense, especially since we first see the name is when Hoekun Yamun Kahan is out in a storm being struck by lightning. Also, his nature seems well-suited to being a follower of Talos. |
| Chosen of Asmodeus |
Posted - 03 Jan 2013 : 21:28:56
quote:
Originally posted by Icelander
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
For instance, in the Horde material, it says Tuigan worship an 'air power' named Teylas, and the text goes on to say this is Akadi. However, not only is the power MALE and the name sounds more like Talos, but when you read Horselords it sounds precisely like Talos being described (Yamun Khahan was clearly a Chosen of Teylas). While this could just be an error (or not), and whoever wrote the Horde box got the two deities (with similar portfolios) mixed-up, I'd like to think it was something deeper.
I like to imagine that the author of the Horde, in accordance with what were then established company policies, used real-world Tengrism mythology without repeating any names directly.
Thus;
Teylas = Tengri = Lord of the Sky (lit. name 'sky')
Etugen = Eje = Mother Earth.
At the time, the closest Faerunian powers to the descriptions of the two deities must have been the elemental powers of air and earth. On the other hand, the worship of the Tuigan is far enough removed from the elemental powers in question so that I would believe it likely to create from their essence aspects to correspond to it and/or provide a 'deific-shaped' hole into which a mortal might step and assume the divinity as a subordinate of the elemental powers.
On the other hand, it is by no means certain that Teylas was always as central to the Tuigan as he is now, while they are united under a man who believes stronglly in that god. In fact, Chanar Ong Kho appears to swear by different gods and the Turko-Mongol shamanism this is based on was an older faith than the 'new-fangled' Tengrism. It is will possible that Teylas was only a minor deity on the steppes once, with a god of the sun as the most powerful one.*
Of course, Etugen-worship was clearly originally worship of the Earthmother, but as that deity became limited to cultivated lands, she must have stopped being able to respond to wilder worshippers. In my cosmology, this happened without her being able to stop it, because the farmers who formed most of her worshippers shaped her personality and nature, but in an alternate one, she somehow decided to fade into a more limited power.
I do find it somewhat strange that Akadi and Grumbar were the first to pounce on such an unattended group of worshippers. They didn't strike me as being that focused on mortals. But I suppose the extremely elemental nature of the Tuigan worship, with sacrifices made to the appropriate elements associated with the gods and such, might have attracted them and made it harder for other powers to answer these prayers without them.
In any event, the 'sex' of elemental beings like Akadi and Grumbar doesn't strike me as important here. We know them as female and male because that's what Faerunian worshippers think of them. The actual powers are not dioecious by their innate nature. And, even if we believe, as I do, that the expectations of worshippers and their belief shapes the nature and personality of powers, this effect, if any, is still going to depend on all their worshippers.
There is absolutely no guarantee that the Faerunian worshippers are closer to the true nature of these powers than worshippers in Kara-Tur, Osse or elsewhere. Or on the Hordelands, where it looks like there is quite a lot of worship. I'm comfortable with there being a male and female version of Grumbar and Akadi and I don't think that this is an unreasonable thing at all. This is how gods seem to work on Toril.
After all, when Lathander's priests start worshipping a radically different version of him under another name and with another dogma, he doesn't cut off their spells or cast them out. Ditto for Ilmater. And almost any god. They'll allow worshippers to think almost what they like as long as their worshipping.**
*If people like the Tripartite Sun theory, the one preceding Aumanator, the god of the high sun. Ironically, the author of Horselords calls the Tuigan sun god Tengris, even closer to the Mongol sky-god. It makes more sense when you keep in mind that the proto-Altaic root word for 'God' is 'te©¯ri' and all gods thus were named '[attribute] tengri' or something similar. Also, the various Turkic peoples worshipped a god of the sky or the sun or both, with many shared attributes.
**The fact that in my cosmological view, the god might find that it has become more and more like the majority of their worshippers believe them to be is beside the point. It's an effective system of godly evolution, ensuring that there will be gods for everything that people find important enough to call on them for and that gods that neither have any relevance in people's life any more nor the potential to change with their worshippers are eventually forgotten.
Granted, we are so far beyond this post that me bringing this up is practically a moot point, but I'm gonna do it anyway.
It seems more likely to me that the identifying Teylas with Akadi is simply an in-universe mistake along the lines of the Romans identifying Odin with Mercury of all people.
Though whatever the case, the Teylas=Talos(and therefore, Gruumsh) connection is the one I use(or rather, strongly hint at) in my own realms. |
| CorellonsDevout |
Posted - 02 Jan 2013 : 05:17:42
Dangit, I always get behind in the cool threads. Everyone has already said what I would have said, so I have nothing to really contribute, except for maybe this (and I'm sorry if someone already said this): I don't know about Shevarash being a second incarnation. He was mortal and then underwent apotheosis, but when he became a god, he absorbed the aspect of the Yuirwood elven god Elikarashae, according to Demihuman Deities. I wouldn't really call that a second incarnation though.
Also, Midnight, the 2nd (or third?) incarnation of Mystra was mortal. So were Cyric and Kelemvor.
Again, sorry if this has been said already. |
| LordofBones |
Posted - 02 Jan 2013 : 04:58:57
quote:
Originally posted by Galuf the Dwarf
Anyways, so here's what I thought would be appropriate levels for the formerly mortal deities I mentioned that were under 60+ HD, including some not presented at all in F&P:
- Bhaal: Rogue 20/Fighter 20/Assassin 10/Blackguard 10
- Deep Duerra: Fighter 20/Psion 20/Psychic Warrior 15/War Mind (XPH) 5
- Gwaeron Windstrom: Ranger 20/Fighter 20/Giant Hunter (MotW) 10/Giant-Killer (SM) 10
- Kelemvor: Fighter 20/Cleric 20/Rogue 10/Hunter of the Dead (CW) 10
- Myrkul: Necromancer 15/Dread Necromancer 20/Cleric 6/Archmage 5/True Necromancer (LM) 14
- Torm: Paladin 20/Knight 20 (PHB2)/Fighter 12/Cleric 8
- Uthgar: Barbarian 20/Ranger 20/Druid 10/Frenzied Berserker (CW) 10
- Velsharoon: Necromancer 20/Cleric 20/Red Wizard 10/Archmage 5/True Necromancer 5
More to come later.
I know I'm very, very late to the party, but as someone currently doing avatar stats for deities, the stats here just hit a chord in me. They kind of suffer from giving deities a bunch of class levels they don't need, from both a mechanical and flavour standpoint.
Bhaal's fighter levels are fine, but going off his propensity for martial arts in the ToT books, I'd give him Monk levels instead of Rogue, and use the epic Assassin progression. I statted his avatar as a Fighter 15, Monk 15, Assassin 20, Soul Reaver 15.
Soul Reaver is from Dragon 297; essentially what assassins want to be when they grow up.
Deep Duerra I know little about, but I'd suggest a Paladin of Tyranny/Psion blend.
Gwaeron Windstrom doesn't need Fighter levels. He's a Ranger god. Ranger 20, Bloodhound 10, Giant-Hunter 10, Giant-Killer 10 sounds fine, or just Ranger 40, Bloodhound 10.
Kelemvor doesn't need rogue levels. Fighter 30, Cleric 25, Hunter of the Dead 10 fits his character and ethos.
Myrkul suffers from MAD and a head-scratchingly weird class allotment. I have his avatar statted as a Cleric 15, Necromancer 26, Pale Master 10, True Necromancer 14 with a bunch of unique abilities replicating the powers of the Crown of Horns and control over the undead. He doesn't need archmage.
I like Torm's knight levels, but the rest are just strange. He's the archetypal paladin. I have his avatar statted as a Paladin 33, Knight Protector 10, Divine Champion 5, Triadic Knight 7.
Uthgar doesn't need Druid levels.
Velsharoon's the god of specialist wizards - necromancers specifically. He doesn't need cleric levels or True Necromancer levels, as those can simply be modeled with special abilities. I have his avatar as a Necromancer 25, Archmage 5, Master Necromancer 10, Arcane Lord 10 with the ability to command undead as a cleric of his HD and a desecrate aura, and also the ability to draw Necromancy spells from all spell lists. I also gave him some of the benefits of Red Wizardhood.
Arcane Lord is essentially what the archmage wants to be when he grows up.
EDIT: As for Bane, F&A has him possessing human aristocrats, whose appearances change to fit his form (Any person Bane possessed quickly assumed the appearance of a handsome, black-haired man of oily looks and a derisive, even cruel, manner)
The whole giant green buff orc slavemaster seems to be artistic license, since he never appears in any form even similar to that in any novel appearance. |
| MrHedgehog |
Posted - 02 Jan 2013 : 02:04:16
Fighting an avatar is fun. I like in the video game Icewind Dale 2 when you fight Iyachtu Xvim |
| Alystra Illianniis |
Posted - 02 Jan 2013 : 00:33:53
Perhaps it was meant to reflect their power relative to other deities? Some deities have a larger influence/presence in the Prime(in this case, the REalms) than others, so they would naturally have more "HD". Basically, higher stats for a deity may simply be a way of (imperfectly, mind you) reflecting their overall power. |
| Mirtek |
Posted - 01 Jan 2013 : 23:23:47
quote:
Originally posted by Jeremy Grenemyer
Why bag on other people's play styles, Markus?
I've run games where players went up against (seriously de-powered) avatars of Orcus and Kiaransalee. Modified City of the Spider Queen to do it.
This doesn't mean I or my players had some secondary "need" we wanted to fulfill.
We were just doing what we'd already been doing throughout the campaign: having fun.
quote:
Originally posted by Galuf the Dwarf
Well, yes, essentially. ... I've been searching, but haven't found anything yet.
Unfortunately I didn’t get a chance to read F&P last night (went to dance lessons with the fiancé instead—I hope I’m as spry as some of those 60 year olds boogying down on the dance floor when I’m there age).
My thoughts are that any class levels the deity might have had as a mortal are already reflected in its write-ups. If a deity was a 10th level fighter in life before ascending (for example) and it has twenty levels of fighter as s deity, ten of those levels came from when it was a mortal.
<casts Summon Mirtek just to see if anything happens>
Well, it's been a long time and I am hoping that no one accuses me of thread necromancy, but the stats in F&P are supposed to be the true deities themselves (as much as I loathe it).
F&P also has the avatar salient divine ability and for some deities does provide stats for their avatars beside the stats for the deities themselves.
Why they have been so inconsistent with the treatment regarding total HD / outsider HD only the designers can answer |
| The Sage |
Posted - 23 Mar 2012 : 15:36:06
quote:
Originally posted by Galuf the Dwarf
An interesting point, Sage. By the way, did you get my recent PM? 
SageBrowser has been causing me a lot of grief over the past week, so it's likely that I've missed it.
Could you resend it?
|
| Galuf the Dwarf |
Posted - 23 Mar 2012 : 14:20:14
An interesting point, Sage. By the way, did you get my recent PM? |
| The Sage |
Posted - 23 Mar 2012 : 01:26:50
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
STAT the Spellplague? 
On the other hand... a Surgemental...
That actually sounds better than some of the ideas I've seen elsewhere for working up stats for the Spellplague.
One idea I've been intrigued by, however, is the notion of working the Spellplague into either the portfolio of a old deity, or creating wholesale an entirely new deity which embodies the concept of the Spellplague. |
| Icelander |
Posted - 22 Mar 2012 : 20:00:30
I don't think that players wanting to battle the gods is necessarily something that needs to be condemned out of hand.
I do, however, think that presenting stats for the deities of any of TSR's and WotC's campaign settings that I've read in a normal D&D format is wrong. The mechanics do not match the established nature of the beings so statted.
Deities are established as having an existence that is different from a purely physical one and their adherence to the laws of the physical world seems to be somewhat optional. Stats for them must take this into account.
If the D&D rules system is to stat gods, it needs a new set of rules to do that, because making them monsters with a certain HD and then character levels added on to that does not fit the source material. They choose to appear in certain forms with such stats, but they are their realms, their portfolios, the sum of the beliefs of their worshippers, etc. just as much as they are these physical forms.
Statting a god without paying attention to this just yields bad stats and a play experience that makes little sense within the metaphysics of the established setting. |
| Jeremy Grenemyer |
Posted - 22 Mar 2012 : 19:53:12
Markus, you’ll recall you started this line of thought by asking why certain gamers like to battle the gods, and implied there’s some strange need that must be fulfilled.
Since you focused on other gamers, I hope you’ll forgive me for having some difficulty in adjusting to the idea you were writing from the PoV of your own campaign needs.
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Because stating Gods interferes with MY play style. What am I supposed to do? Tell my players those stats don't apply in my games? I can do that, but then I look like a jerk. Its far easier for me to run a setting where the deities are NOT stated.
Are you talking about your own personal campaign or in general?
I think that on average this is only ever a problem for your new-to-the-game kid DM who has to contend with players who think the deity stats are set in stone (after allowing for the fact that this kid might see the what’s in Faiths and Pantheons and think “Really big deity stats…awesome! I wonder how much money mom has in her purse?”)
For experienced DMs, I just can’t see deity stats as being anything other than one great big gigantic tremendously tremendous non-issue.
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Shouldn't official material appeal to the largest common denominator?
Yep. By and large it should. And funny you should mention that, because at the time F&P was being written, the push to have more crunch in Realms products was under way.
That’s why the crunch was in there: because the bean counters thought that’s what fans wanted.
Why did they think that? Because they’d observed that rules heavy books outsold fluff heavy books. They didn’t appreciate why the fluff was important.
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
How many folks are running god-killer campaigns? Why produce something most folks won't ever use?
Those are good questions. I agree: don’t produce stats for monsters (if we may call the gods that) which most campaigns won’t ever do battle with.
I’ll add this ought to be doubly true since WotC’s own research (if I recall correctly) had already told them that campaign which start at level 1 pretty much never reach Epic Level (mine was an exception: we played over a ten year span from levels 1-24).
Of course players and DMs do like building from-scratch high level characters. Always fun to have a grind session every now and then.
Of course this research was done when WotC was WotC and had not yet been sold to Hasbro, so there you go…
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Avatars are different - thats old-school and fine in my book. They should still be epic, but if someone wants to kill one, then it’s their funeral (after all, a God can produce a bunch more... or show up in-person).
Well no, it’s not automatically their funeral
There was never one right way to use the deities in a game (not saying *you* are claiming this, only trying to point out different play styles do exist).
See, that’s part of what F&P did: coach DMs on how to use the deities in their games if they felt like going there.
I felt like F&P could have devoted a whole lot more space to greatly expanding on the 2nd Edition work in Faiths & Avatars and Powers & Pantheons. To this day I wish they’d given us more practical-to-the-DM information (more examples of fortified churches, temples, temple names, locations, temple NPCs, cool and unique manifestations, schisms within divine orders and so on).
Still, it was one hell of a writing achievement in my not so humble opinion for the two Erics (Erik Mona and Eric Boyd) to get all those deity stats written up.
|
| Markustay |
Posted - 22 Mar 2012 : 19:03:06
STAT the Spellplague?
On the other hand... a Surgemental...
quote:
Originally posted by Jeremy Grenemyer
Why bag on other people's play styles, Markus?
Because stating Gods interferes with MY play style. What am I supposed to do? Tell my players those stats don't apply in my games? I can do that, but then I look like a jerk. Its far easier for me to run a setting where the deities are NOT stated.
So instead of me - and everyone else who feels the same way - being forced to pay for stats they neither need nor want, why not have the DMs who do enjoy that level of play create their own stats? Shouldn't official material appeal to the largest common denominator? How many folks are running god-killer campaigns? Why produce something most folks won't ever use?
Avatars are different - thats old-school and fine in my book. They should still be epic, but if someone wants to kill one, then its their funeral (after all, a God can produce a bunch more... or show up in-person). |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 22 Mar 2012 : 18:22:26
quote:
Originally posted by Lord Karsus
quote:
Originally posted by Jakk
I agree here... although I've been tempted to ask WotC for the stats of the Spellplague, so my overpowered 2e party (eight PCs all over 20th level) can kill it... 
-Apply the 'Living Spell' template to a Wish spell.
And make it a wild surge, as well.  |
| Lord Karsus |
Posted - 22 Mar 2012 : 14:44:04
quote:
Originally posted by Jakk
I agree here... although I've been tempted to ask WotC for the stats of the Spellplague, so my overpowered 2e party (eight PCs all over 20th level) can kill it...
-Apply the 'Living Spell' template to a Wish spell. |
| Jakk |
Posted - 21 Mar 2012 : 17:22:05
quote:
Originally posted by Lord Karsus
-Anyone else agree, I've always felt giving things like deities Levels was kind of no reason to? Hit Dice, stats, powers, whatever, if one wants to give them stats, but traditional levels? Nah, never really got it.
I agree here... although I've been tempted to ask WotC for the stats of the Spellplague, so my overpowered 2e party (eight PCs all over 20th level) can kill it... |
| Lord Karsus |
Posted - 20 Mar 2012 : 16:58:01
-Anyone else agree, I've always felt giving things like deities Levels was kind of no reason to? Hit Dice, stats, powers, whatever, if one wants to give them stats, but traditional levels? Nah, never really got it. |
| Galuf the Dwarf |
Posted - 20 Mar 2012 : 01:57:31
Anyways, so here's what I thought would be appropriate levels for the formerly mortal deities I mentioned that were under 60+ HD, including some not presented at all in F&P:
- Bhaal: Rogue 20/Fighter 20/Assassin 10/Blackguard 10
- Deep Duerra: Fighter 20/Psion 20/Psychic Warrior 15/War Mind (XPH) 5
- Gwaeron Windstrom: Ranger 20/Fighter 20/Giant Hunter (MotW) 10/Giant-Killer (SM) 10
- Kelemvor: Fighter 20/Cleric 20/Rogue 10/Hunter of the Dead (CW) 10
- Myrkul: Necromancer 15/Dread Necromancer 20/Cleric 6/Archmage 5/True Necromancer (LM) 14
- Torm: Paladin 20/Knight 20 (PHB2)/Fighter 12/Cleric 8
- Uthgar: Barbarian 20/Ranger 20/Druid 10/Frenzied Berserker (CW) 10
- Velsharoon: Necromancer 20/Cleric 20/Red Wizard 10/Archmage 5/True Necromancer 5
More to come later. |
| Galuf the Dwarf |
Posted - 16 Mar 2012 : 16:44:43
I saw Tempus & Corellon Larethian in there, however it's not quite what I envisioned them as. Tempus I saw as a Fighter 20/Barbarian 10/Swordsage 10 or Fighter 20/Swordsage 20. Corellon Larethian, at least in the sense of how he is in Faerun struck me more as a Duskblade 20/Wizard 24/Elven High Mage 5. Granted, I'm going more by standard 3.5 Edition rules, since I'm still studying Pathfinder rules; haven't quite grasped a hold of it yet.  |
| Lord Karsus |
Posted - 16 Mar 2012 : 02:45:05
quote:
Originally posted by Galuf the Dwarf
quote:
Originally posted by Lord Karsus
-If you're looking to make stuff yourself, this should help: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/archive/index.php?t-111306.html
Thank you. 
I take it that's a format to cut, paste and modify the details to make due for each deity?
-I didn't look through the whole thing, but it's a bunch of deities that people statted out by the rules. At some point, Forgotten Realms ones might have been done. If nothing else, it gives a sense of comparison for how other deities would/should be written up. |
| Galuf the Dwarf |
Posted - 16 Mar 2012 : 01:29:43
quote:
Originally posted by Lord Karsus
-If you're looking to make stuff yourself, this should help: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/archive/index.php?t-111306.html
Thank you.
I take it that's a format to cut, paste and modify the details to make due for each deity? |
|
|
