| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Icelander |
Posted - 27 Feb 2012 : 06:06:20
Semphar and Yaimmunnahar
In 1359 DR, Caliph Abu Bakr of Semphar surrendered to Hubadai's second, a general left to invest the Madinat. Abu Bakr sworse fealty to Yamun Khahan and was allowed to rule Semphar as satrap of the Khahan. This 'mercy' had one purpose, to allow Abu Bakr to tax his immensely wealthy people at a ruinous rate and turn most of the profits over to his suzerain. In this, he was assisted by a garrison of 5,000 Tuigan warriors, to enforce his increasingly unpopular edicts among his own people. More than half of these warriors later (1360 DR) left Semphar and joined the Tuigan advance to the West, but the remaining 2,000 still backed the Caliph's authority.
Insurrection was brewing, however, and it was not clear that this small garrison could contain Semphari resentment. The taxes may have been lowered, in any event, their gathering was less aggressive in the absence of enough Tuigan warriors to form warbands large enough to safely send into the lands of the provincial nobility and independent-minded tribal leaders. Caliph Abu Bakr, no fool and no stranger to intrigue, started a whispering campaign that his unpopular actions had all been forced by the Tuigan, under great duress.
No more is heard about Semphar for several real-world years and more or less twelve years in Realmstime. In 1372 DR, we are informed by the FRCS, Caliph Abu Bakr rules in Semphar and the nation is 'completely sovereign'. Evidently, Caliph Abu Bakr is no longer dependent on Tuigan approval for any of his actions. This is further strengthened when he is presented in LEoF as dreaming of establishing his own empire and seeking artifacts of lost Solon to 'defend his kingdom from the armies of Skuld'. The only threat he can see to his dream of a Semphari empire is Mulhorand, apparently, and there is no mention of him having any fear of Yaimmunnahar.
So, then, what happened between 1360 and 1372 DR that left the discredited and hated Abu Bakr as sole Caliph once more in Semphar, beholden to no foreign oppressor?
Where did the 2,000 Tuigan that were left in Semphar go? Were they massacred? Did they 'go native' and now form a loyal part of the Caliph's new army? Did they leave peacably?
Why did Hubadai Khahan, self-proclaimed heir to Yamun Khahan, not insist that Abu Bakr's oath of fealty to the Great Khan bound him to Yaimmunnahar after the fall of Yamun? Even if the treacherous Caliph could not care less for the empty wind of words, why did Hubadai, commander of tens of thousands of fierce warriors even at the lowest ebb of his fortunes immediately after the defeat in Thesk, not send an army to retake Semphar?*
It is very unlikely that the necessary rebuilding of a local military capability could proceed fast enough to match the pre-war strength in the time it would take the Tuigan to ride there, so it would be even easier than before. And they only needed 50,000 warriors before, achieving an easy victory which netted them an immensely rich prize. Hubadai's ambition was for a strong Tuigan nation. Why would he not want Semphar as the treasure chest and trading hub of that nation?
Did the unwillingness of Hubadai to enforce his claim over Semphar have anything to do with the threat of Solon? Did Ambuchar Devayam in his short-lived campaign of conquest from 1360-1362 DR control an army of undead** so large that even engaged in war with Ra-Khati and various independent settlements within the Katakoro, even when he was engaged against the hundreds of thousands of the Shou Lung empire, the spectre of his wrath still intimidated the mighty Khahan enough to make him afraid to send a military force within a few hundred miles of him?
Because if he did, there are going to be some pretty exciting things in the area around Solon. Anything intelligent and ambitious among the Rajah's armies is going to claim the area around ruined Solon. But from the LEoF, maybe all that excitement is already done with and Solon is once more a quiet ruin. If so, how did that happen? Was there no fall-out from such a powerful conquering army losing its commander? If there was fallout, on whom did it fall? Semphar? Ulgarth?
Even if Solon was the reason that the Tuigan did not react when Caliph Abu Bakr started to ignore their dictates and behave as he pleased***, why did Yaimmunnahar not conquer Semphar in 1363 DR or later, whenever the fallout over Solon had subsided enough?
It seems to me that Hubadai must have acceded gracefully to the Caliph's desire for independence and that he has somehow managed to convince Abu Bakr, who has every reason to fear the new nation of Yaimmunnahar is a threat to his country, that he means them no harm. How did he do this? Does he really mean them no harm?**** Why does he want an independent Semphar?
So, what are the modern relations between Semphar and its erstwhile suzerain in Yaimmunnahar? Are they allied? Trading partners? Neutral? Mutually ignoring the existence of each other like people who got drunk at the office Christmas party and made out in the copy room?
*If 5,000 Tuigan were enough to be considered able to hold it against native resentment (and 2,000 at least not considered an automatic suicide and abdication of authority), it follows that the 25,000+ man Semphari military described in The Horde Campaign had been substantially destroyed in the initial invasion (though it seems that less than a third of it was actually killed) or that it had been disbanded and disarmed to a great degree after the Tuigan occupation.
**And possibly other things. Constructs? His Durpari dissidents from 50+ years ago (and more likely, their descendants)? People of Solon who had lived there when he conquered it? Hill and mountain tribes of former Solonese territory recruited to his banner, with stories of their Imperial past? Oni, ogre magi, hobgoblins? Orcs from the Dustwall? Goblins? What could possibly have been enough force for Hubadai to fear that if he took Semphar, Solon could challenge his armies on the open plains of that country and pose such a threat to him that it was not worth the risk to take such a rich country?
***And possibly massacred their garrison, if only to placate his furious people and conciliate his more patriotic noble rivals.
****I can't imagine Abu Bakr being naive enough to ignore Yaimmunnahar completely as a threat without Hubadai giving some pretty strong assurances. If Abu Bakr fears distant Mulhorand, fully engaged in a quagmire of a war far to the west, more than neighbouring Yaimmunnahar, full of Tuigan clamouring for loot, glory and war, it is because he is certain that Hubadai will never invade Semphar. So either he's a world-class naive idiot (which doesn't seem to fit with the canny instinct for survival and political maneuvering he's shown in the past) or he has good reasons to be so sure.
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| 30 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| Icelander |
Posted - 11 Mar 2012 : 22:57:27
1373 DR, the State of the Ruins, Solon after the Raja
I have established to my satisfaction that Raja Ambuchar Devayam controlled Solon at least since ca 1300 DR and that he went to war against Ra-Khati a total of three times in that period. First was the war at the turning of the century, the one where Khuskh was destroyed. Second was the time he seized the chance during Yamun Khahan's campaigns to threathen Ra-Khati, but suffered a defeat to Hubadai Orlok at the Great Chain Bridge in Eleint of 1359 DR. The third was his invasion of Ra-Khati early in 1360 DR, when he successfully brushed aside meager resistance and his undead horde poured into the Katakoro plateu.
The final goal of Raja Ambuchar Devayam/Tan Chin appears to have been the conquest of the former lands of Anok-Imaskar, including a lot of modern Shou Lung. As a result, Solon, probably picked fairly bare of powerful Imaskari magic by the lich, was now pretty much useless to him. So did he just leave it empty for anyone to occupy?
He may have. But in my campaign, he did not. It was mentioned that among his armies there were human priests, rakhasha, oni and others who were not among the living dead. Since he once had an army of Durpari dissidents, it seems that he once had people with goals different to his under his command. Of course, he could merely have tricked all these people and monsters into helping him.
But a good villain is one with the ability to forge a team out of individuals with different, but compatible goals and to maximise the synergistic benefits from horizontal intergration. In other words, a good villain is happy to cooperate with other villains who want to bring their own particular brand of tyranny to markets where he does not intend to compete.
As such, I believe that he enlisted some powerful rakhasha, not to mention heretical wizards and clerics from the Shining Lands, as well as some oni and perhaps even undead from the Raurin and Semphar, and promised them that in return for their help in defeating the kingdoms of the Katakoro Shan, they would be free to rule the former lands of Solon once he was once more Emperor of Anok-Imaskar. Of course, they would owe him ultimate fealty, but he'd not be a troublesome overlord, as he didn't really care much for Semphar or anything to the south of it.
While I don't see any reason for him to weaken his own forces before his war in Shou Lung, I also think that taking self-willed creatures who don't want to be there with him would have been counterproductive. Rakhasha lords, evil priests, undead evil priests, evil wizards and liches, etc., if these beings were focused on ruling a revitalised Solon and not on a war against Shou Lung, they would provide Tan Chin with a more valuable service in preventing any threat to him from the West than in being dragged unwillingly with his armies into Shou Lung.
Which is why I imagine that if Caliph Abu Bakr carries out his intention of sending someone to explore the ruins of Solon in 1374 DR, he will be rather amazed to discover a thriving city ruled by monsters and undead, busily building strength* for a future campaign of terror against their neighbours.
Oh, and while power over Solon would be shared in accordance with complex and paranoid agreements with failsafes and guarantees worked out over a century or so, that still wouldn't be enough to prevent the ruling nobility of monsters and undead from double-crossing one another in various complex ways not mentioned in the exhaustively detailed magical agreements by which they are all bound.
I expect that many of the undead that made the area between Khazari and Semphar hazardous in the last decade actually came from there and not former Ra-Khati, as the Taangan and Semphari previously believed. After all, Solon had been covered by a volcanic eruption! There couldn't still be activity there, it must be hordes of undead on the former territories.
I find the idea of trade between the undead realm on the Katakoro and the undead/human/monster realm of Solon fascinating. Zombies and skeletons don't eat, but ghouls do. New undead are created by magical power, which is something that can be harvested and traded with the appropriate means.
Captured sentients are always valuable, being useful for sacrifices that release magical energies. The Solonese live in lands where most of the Imaskari artifacts easily found have been discovered by Tan Chin, but the Katakoro undead probably have less magical lore and scholarship in the decades after Tan Chin's fall. They might welcome insights from the former Durpari dissidents who are now either obscenely old humans or newly made intelligent undead, as well as powerful priests of terrible deities or wizards of blasphemous studies.
*While among the rulers would be fairly powerful mages, priests and rakhasha lords, none of them had the kind of uber-duber-Imaskari artificier powers that enabled Tan Chin to create thousands of undead per day. |
| Icelander |
Posted - 11 Mar 2012 : 21:14:22
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
I would think she stayed in Ra-Khati, and then in Guge (the new kingdom of Hantumah), as she fought a defensive retreat (over the years). I don't think she would have had any time to play mommy to anyone. Her 'knightly' skills could possibly be attributed to short time learning horse-warfare at Hubadai's side, before the invasion of her homeland (and those skills, along with her Wujen abilites, would have increased as she fought a more and more desperate war).
At what point would she have seperated from Hubadai and why?
Unless the unnamed adventurers took some rather strong steps to prevent it, she would have stayed by his side throughout his ride through Ra-Khati* and the long, hard campaign in Shou Lung.
When she desired to return to Ra-Khati, it was only to gain her father's consent for marriage to Hubadai. And she accepted Hubadai's plan of obtaining such consent with the implicit threat posed by him riding there to ask with four tumen of warriors.
As long as the threat to Ra-Khati was (seemingly) averted by Hubadai and the unnamed adventurers on the Great Chain Bridge, why would she have desired to stay any longer in a country she is mentioned as disliking? She had no desire to be the ruler of Ra-Khati and was looking for any way out of it. Once she had that way, not to mention the apparent favour of Yamun Khahan as well as Hubadai's love, why would she stay behind?
After half a year with Hubadai, she was a good Tuigan wife in the third adventure. She was proud that he was riding to war and was giving the Khahan advice on how best to conquer more lands and rule them well. She was never going to be accepted by the Ra-Khatians as a spiritual leader. She was about as spiritual as the average go-go dancer!
*In fact, if the adventurers were to have failed in a particular piece of diplomacy, she is mentioned as accepting the sacking of Sakhoi by Hubadai without blaming him. She only asks that he spares the survivors, which he does happily by taking them along as slaves. In the campaign against Shou Lung, of course, they would all have died apart from those able to flee and find something to eat in the scorched lands left by Batu Min Ho.
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
I think a fanfic piece is in order. I have to 'go dark' for a week (probably starting later today) - that will give me loads of time where I have nothing to do (no cable/internet for at least a week).
I'm picturing something both epic and tragic, with Hubadai coming to her aid toward the end, only to be defeated by her side (they die holding hands). There's a really good story in there.
I agree that there is a good story in there, yes.
I do think that the story needs to include Khazari as well, accounting for 'Prince' Jadaran's fate . Also, the Invisible Tigers need to appear and contribute to the defeat of the Raja of Solon.
Incorporating Dura al-Mustasib and her wily father, Atabeg Ali al-Mustasib, would be a nice bonus.
Personally, I wouldn't write such a story until I had settled to my satisfaction how all loose ends stand at the beginning of the story. I'm getting there, but unfortunately, I'm in the process of the Icelandic version of a Bar-exam for the next two weeks, taking a total of five exams (the first of which starts in 12 hours and 47 minutes and is scheduled to run for 24 hours).
So I would not feel able to devote more than a passing thought to it until the end of March.
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Hantumah seems to have been built upon the ashes of ancient Anok-Imaskar (same territories). I can definitely use that.
Well, it seems quite a bit smaller. But the desire is there. 
We know that it incorporates former Ra-Khati and either parts or the whole of the Katakoro plateu. Whether or not Khazari, in part or whole, is under undead rule is unclear. Similarly, how much of Shou Lung is subjugated or at least threathened is left somewhat ambigious.
If we take the geographic description in Open Grave literally, I'd say that only Ra-Khati and the Katakoro are included.
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Then Tan-Chin can go over to Thay and start slapping-around Szass-Tam for being the wanna-be newb that he is (along with Shoon VII, Larloch, Iouluam, Aumvor, Lady Saharel, etc, etc.. - all of them need to slap that upstart around). Sorry.. went off-topic there... I really do hate Szass-Tam; I used to just dislike him, but this new 'Plateau of Leng' thing just makes me nuts. Bad-enough he was a mere stripling compared to those others, but now he's going all 'pin-head' on us. 
I'm actually leaning toward the 1362 DR defeat having been final to the extent that he's not Tan Chin any longer. His consciousness was shattered and while he may have been able to infect and take over others, this doesn't mean that his personality will ever be whole again or that these four are capable of rational or sane thought. |
| Markustay |
Posted - 11 Mar 2012 : 20:45:21
I would think she stayed in Ra-Khati, and then in Guge (the new kingdom of Hantumah), as she fought a defensive retreat (over the years). I don't think she would have had any time to play mommy to anyone. Her 'knightly' skills could possibly be attributed to short time learning horse-warfare at Hubadai's side, before the invasion of her homeland (and those skills, along with her Wujen abilites, would have increased as she fought a more and more desperate war).
I think a fanfic piece is in order. I have to 'go dark' for a week (probably starting later today) - that will give me loads of time where I have nothing to do (no cable/internet for at least a week).
I'm picturing something both epic and tragic, with Hubadai coming to her aid toward the end, only to be defeated by her side (they die holding hands). There's a really good story in there.
Hantumah seems to have been built upon the ashes of ancient Anok-Imaskar (same territories). I can definitely use that.
Then Tan-Chin can go over to Thay and start slapping-around Szass-Tam for being the wanna-be newb that he is (along with Shoon VII, Larloch, Iouluam, Aumvor, Lady Saharel, etc, etc.. - all of them need to slap that upstart around). Sorry.. went off-topic there... I really do hate Szass-Tam; I used to just dislike him, but this new 'Plateau of Leng' thing just makes me nuts. Bad-enough he was a mere stripling compared to those others, but now he's going all 'pin-head' on us. |
| Icelander |
Posted - 11 Mar 2012 : 20:19:44
Given prior lore on death knights, I would think that in order for Bhrokiti to become one, she would need to become a powerful knight first.
So I'd put her corruption and fall long after the rise of Kourmira and temples to the Red Knight there. While she learned to ride with the Tuigan in 1359 DR onwards, she only turned her full energies to learning the arts of war from the priesthood of the Red Knight once she learned the full story of what had happened to Ra-Khati and her family.
Hubadai would have been able to prevent her from any rash acts by appealing to her motherly duties to their children*, but when she's in her forties, her children will be old enough so that this does not work any more.
As for the heroes who confronted Tan Chin... I wonder. Do they have to be the same ones as those who were tricked under Solon or are two years such a long time in adventuring time that it is likely that they had either succeeded in growing rich and thus retired, or succumbed to some other ill-considered adventure?
I am tempted to include at least some familiar names from the Hordelands among them. After all, the rulers of Ra-Khati and Khazari both had stakes in the outcome and both were the sort to feel a duty to their people. And one was a divine caster of epic power while the other was at least a mid-level Samurai with enough wealth to equip himself in the raiments of God-Kings.
Even if four heroes faced him in the final battle, that doesn't mean that there weren't six to eight heroes who went down there in the first place. Just saying...
My initial scenario for the death of 'Prince' Jadaran Khan doesn't work, because the Solonese invaded Khazari from the east, not the west, but I'm still tempted to make some use of concepts for it. I still think that Jadaran died in Khazari, fighting the Raja Ambucher Devayam, even if it turned out slightly differently than I originally thought.
I can't actually find any canon that says that Khazari ever recovered from the Solonese occupation. In fact, the booming trade over the Golden Way, despite the many tribes of Taangan who did not accept Yaimunnahar and thus will continue to raid caravans on it, argues rather persuasively that the shorter and more convenient route through Khazari is either even more dangerous or simply completely closed.
*Naturally they had children. In 1373 DR, Hubadai may not have made an umambigious choice of 'First Empress', still holding out hope for a Cormyrean bride, but he has plenty of potential heirs. |
| Markustay |
Posted - 11 Mar 2012 : 19:54:37
I was thinking along the same lines myself. That she lead the rebellion (Hantumah Resistance sidebar), and was eventually forced to confront him directly. The text makes it seem like this happened swiftly after Raja Thirayam's invasion, but it could have been a decade or more later that the 'final battle' occurred.
If that is the case, then Hubadai may have been one of the other 'Great Heroes' that confronted him (Bhrokiti could have been gaining in power during that time). I would say the other two heroes were the only two survivors of the first conflict - the one at the end of the modules (I note that Brian also mentions the Stone Scepter, which means Tan-Chin wasn't defeated at all, as I have already surmised).
The Stone Scepter - by it's nature - should NOT turn into a cursed item until after Tan-Chin's final defeat (and destruction). So long as the artifact retains its original purpose and powers, Tan-Chin must still be active on the Prime material plane somewhere.
I forgot about the 'soul-splitting' thingy - I will have to think on that more. I like it... just not sure how to spin it.
EDIT: At that point, Tan-Chin must have established himself as an Exarch (because he now has the equivalent of 'avatars'). Not sure, though... even demi-powers only get one avatar... perhaps he can only take full control of one at a time? (the rest of the time he is just seeing through their eyes, making sure they don't betray him).
On the other hand, I am thinking that Meilan may be a spirit currently possessing Bhrokiti... I once pegged her a succubus (she appears in quite a bit of K-T lore), but now I think she was an Alu-Fiend, at best (summoned by the Black Panther to help ruin the first empire - details of that is in Ronin Challenge). Ergo, and Alu-Fiend could still die a 'mortals death', and have a ghost 9as ssen in the Black Courser module). |
| Icelander |
Posted - 11 Mar 2012 : 19:41:21
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
BTW, Bhrokiti is the Deathknight Sceptenar Vasabhakti (pg.19, Open grave), so I don't think she was with Hubadai.
Even if she's the Sceptenar Vasabhakti in 1479, that doesn't mean that she wasn't with Hubadai in 1360-1363 DR.
After all, she was a 2nd level Wu-Jen without Wu-jen powers in 1360 DR. She can't have been one of the four heroes who destroyed Tan Chin, those would have been heroes of an epic scale. We're talking wielders of the Godslayer of Hit Points and shooters of Arrows of Slaying like the ones they used to kill Zeus.
She might have been with them, of course. Consider that the story of the 'four heroes'/'four Sceptenars'/'four-parted soul' is something known to pretty much everyone (it's a DC 15 roll to know). It's much more likely to be rather more complex in reality.
In any case, the corruption of the Sceptenars appears to have been a slow process. As the daughter of the spiritual leader of the land, it is possible that the corruption of the land affected her, even if she was far away.
Hubadai and Bhrokiti might have tried to destroy the undead legions on former Ra-Khati after they got back. They might even have financed and backed the resistance movement at first, only acting themselves when they discovered the existence of the other Sceptenars and that Bhrokhiti was fated to share their fate when she died. |
| Icelander |
Posted - 11 Mar 2012 : 19:31:40
This also sheds some light on Hubadai's personality. In the beginning of 1359 DR, he is a gifted teenage son simultaneously obsessed with earning his father's approval and so headstrong and impetuous that other khans find it easy to argue that he should not be left in sole command for the Semphar invasion.
He's not cruel, but he comes from a harsh culture. He's listed as Chaotic Neutral and he has a Wisdom score that's mediocre at best (10) compared to older khans (12).
In conquering Semphar, he demonstrates what can only be called staggering genius for a boy in sole command for the first time. He uses three seperated armies with consummate strategic brilliance, coordinates logistics with so much perfection that a complex supply chain never even becomes an issue and defeats a numerically superior force defending a series of advanced fortifications with losses that can only be called miniscule.
Even more impressively, he shows political acumen in turning Atabeg Ali al-Mustasib's ambitions to his advantage and in taking his daughter into his yurt and siring sons on her, he made sure that his role in Semphari politics could one day be something other than merely 'foreign conqueror'.
It is when he falls in love with Bhrokiti that he begins to move away from the precepts of his harsh culture. Growing up moves him from Chaotic to Lawful*, but it is Bhrokiti's influence that makes him receptive to King Azoun IV positive example rather than becoming an embittered avenger of his father, whom he previously idolised.
The modules also revealed a softer side of Yamun Khahan. In D&D simplistic alignment system, it might indeed be right to call him Lawful Evil, but that didn't change the fact that he was a loving father to Hubadai. He just took great care never to acknowledge such an 'embarrassing' sentiment in public, and, thus, unfortunately never really allowed Hubadai to know this.
To a great extent, this was probably because he was afraid that if he showed his fierce pride in and love for the son of his First Empress and his heir-to-be, he would spoil the boy, ruining what he loved in him.
*Nearly all Tuigan adults are Lawful, signifying that the customs and law of the tribes are considered paramount, even if these laws are very different from the laws of Faerun. |
| Markustay |
Posted - 11 Mar 2012 : 19:17:40
Obviously, he gives good yurt. 
BTW, Bhrokiti is the Deathknight Sceptenar Vasabhakti (pg.19, Open grave), so I don't think she was with Hubadai. |
| Icelander |
Posted - 11 Mar 2012 : 19:07:18
As for why Hubadai didn't come back, that is easy to answer.
In 1361 DR, he is probably in Cormyr. In 1362 DR, he was most likely in Waterdeep.
In either case, anything he hears about events in Ra-Khati is months or years old, confused and distorted. It's easy to assume that it refers to what had already come to pass and continue to believe that Tan Chin is no longer a threat.
Add to that, why would Bhrokiti be in danger? If she and Hubadai believed Ra-Khati safe after the Tuigan broke the Solonese at the ruins of Khushk and the unnamed adventurers were headed to Solon to destroy the lich's phylactery, she would have ridden with him to the West.
After the Golden Way, it is not implausible at all that she travelled Faerun with him, in a kind of extended honeymoon.
Of course, what she thinks of his existing concubines, particularly Dura al-Mustasib, mother to two strong sons of his, not to mention his courtship of Cormyrean noblewomen, is an open question.
Hubadai Khahan may have been a peaceful leader largely because his hardest battles are fought in the yurt.  |
| Icelander |
Posted - 11 Mar 2012 : 19:00:26
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
All of the modules had to have occurred during the first novel in the series (Horselords). Unfortunately, the novel covering that exact same period of time in that same region does not mention any of those events (pretty poor planning, on TSR's part).
While Hubadai's first meeting with the unnamed adventurers does occur during Horselords, it is not especially strange that it is not mentioned by Koja of Khazari. After all, he doesn't meet Hubadai until after the events of that novel and thus would have no way of hearing his story.
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Just re-read your other post - the events of the modules take place BEFORE the events of the invasion of Shou-Lung (in the first novel, when he captured Semphar). It begins with Hubadai looking for an alternate route (which is weird, considering his dad was already working his way through Khazari around that time).
The Tuigan army in the first and second modules is the army with which Hubadai took Semphar and which he is bringing to his father. He had orders to go through the Katakoro Shan and fall on Khazari from the less protected east side, in case that the Tuigan proved unable to press through the fortresses of the passes in the west.
Had Khazari not surrendered after the first battle, Hubadai would have been able to savage their defensive posture. It was a masterful stroke of strategy and shows that both father and son were strategists, not just full-steam-ahead-and-damn-the-consequences warlords.
Not having a contingency plan for anything less than perfect success is a bad idea in military strategy.
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
As the modules progress 9the 2nd & 3rd ones), Yamun Kahan has invaded Shou-Lung - it was during that time period that the 2nd & 3rd modules take place, before he turned around and decided to attack Rashemen (his re-crossing the steppes is never covered by any novels - it just occurs between novels)
Ergo, the ending of the modules occurs right around the time he has finished in Shou and re-enters the Steppes.
Just so. In late Eleint 1359 DR. |
| Markustay |
Posted - 11 Mar 2012 : 18:56:29
Brian already told me he assumed the adventurers did fail when he wrote that (which I found as strange as you are finding it).
I edited my above post - I didn't quite understand what you were getting at the first time I read it.
The events of the modules mostly took place during the second novel, while Yamun was busy in Shou. They start immeditaely following his defeat of Semphar (1st novel) and just as he is looking for a 'back door' into Shou Lung (which makes you wonder why he bothered with the Dragonwall at all). They end just as Shou Lung is defeated, and he turns his attentions to the West (the long period between novels 2 & 3). Since the adventures take place during the entire shou-campaign, I would say they had more then ample time to do everything they did. |
| Icelander |
Posted - 11 Mar 2012 : 18:51:45
To clarify, I'm not objecting to the idea that the adventurers failed. Reading over the adventures, in order to succeed, a very specific string of coincidences and heroic acts had to come together. A tiny misstep anywhere would spell failure.
What I principally found odd was that the first reference to the events of the adventures was the last thing that happened, chronologically.
On the other hand, maintaining the integrity of the published adventures as well as the reference in GHotR is possible.
We simply assume that the reference to Tan Chin assembling an army of undead and invading Ra-Khati in 1360 DR refers to his third attempt to invade that kingdom.
The army he raised in 1359 DR failed to cross the chain bridge because of the actions of some unnamed adventurers and Hubadai Orlak with his two tumen of Tuigan warriors.
Those unnamed adventurers then parted in friendship with the Tuigan, who rode to Thay and into history, and planned an expedition into Solon to destroy the evil lich for once and all. After much hardship, they believed that they had succeeded. At the turning of the year between 1359-1360 DR, they caused the eruption noted in GhotR and made it out again alive.
Exiunt omnes, pursued by a bear.
However, Tan Chin was not permanently destroyed, just worried about the Stone Scepter of Shih and unwillng to test his powers against it quite yet. Once he was sure that the adventurers carrying that damnable item were safely away, he intstructed his undead legions to rise again and marched on Ra-Khati once again.
Easy conquest, on to the Katakoro plateu to take the remnants of Guge and various ruins of Imaskar and Anok-Imaskar. Wintering there to loot ancient ruins. In the next spring, onwards into Shou Lung, sacking, burning and killing all sent against them and 'recruiting' them into his armies. At the end of the campaigning season of 1361 DR, seizing Khazari to plunder its store of Anok-Imaskari artifacts that Tan Chin alone now knew how to find.
The adventurers with the Stone Scepter presumably heard about this all and were not amused. Tan Chin, meanwhile, probably had all the new magic he thought he'd need to counter the Stone Scepter of Shih.
At some point in 1362 DR, things come to a head and the final conflict occurs under Skarou in Khazari, in ancient catacombs. That's not all that far away from where Thakos would have been located, so it's not an implausible location for a necropolis where artificers had chambers prepared for eternal rest, accomplished with arcane magic to escape the tyranny of gods who presumed to judge mortals, of course.
Tan Chin comes off second best in that conflict. Of course, it is entirely up to the DM how permanent his defeat is or how the unnamed heroes emerge from it. |
| Markustay |
Posted - 11 Mar 2012 : 18:42:18
I was working on a 'corrected' version of the K-T timeline (merging it with the Horde material, Imaskari stuff, Raumathar & Narfel, the Utter East, Zakhara, etc), but then the GhotR came-out and Brian just kinda... I don't know... did what he thought was best?
I would just consider any of the later dating (in regards to the East) in that tome to be an "estimate by Faerunian scholars" of the events that transpired. All of the modules had to have occurred during the first novel in the series (Horselords). Unfortunately, the novel covering that exact same period of time in that same region does not mention any of those events (pretty poor planning, on TSR's part).
EDIT:
Just re-read your other post - the events of the modules take place BEFORE the events of the invasion of Shou-Lung (in the first novel, when he captured Semphar). It begins with Hubadai looking for an alternate route (which is weird, considering his dad was already working his way through Khazari around that time). As the modules progress (the 2nd & 3rd ones), Yamun Kahan has invaded Shou-Lung - it was during that time period that the 2nd & 3rd modules take place, before he turned around and decided to attack Rashemen (his re-crossing the steppes is never covered by any novels - it just occurs between novels)
Ergo, the ending of the modules occurs right around the time he has finished in Shou and re-enters the Steppes.
|
| Icelander |
Posted - 11 Mar 2012 : 18:33:22
Tan Chin's original purpose was to invade Shou Lung and according to the GHotR, he sacked Shih Tuh, Yenching and Lo Tu in 1361 DR. |
| Markustay |
Posted - 11 Mar 2012 : 18:27:39
Correct - I had similar discussion with Brian, and he told me he decided that the adventurers were 'unsuccessful' (thus invalidating three very good modules, which is why designers never before went the 'failed attempt' route before).
So if they failed, Tan-Chin can then later invade Guge (he never invaded Shou-Lung... Guge has never been part of Shou-Lung... no-one wants Guge, ts considered 'cursed'). However, if the adventurers failed, the volcanic eruption should not have happened 9as you have pointed out).
While I was still working on this stuff, I resolved it by saying Tan-Chin (Abuchar Devayam) replaced one of the 4 artifacts in the pocket-dimensions with a fake (he is a very clever planer, after all). He did this in the event of the adventurer's success, in order to fool Chih Shih (which worked). When the adventurers thought they succeeded (destroying all 4 artifacts), a contingency-effect created by Tan-Chin set-off the 'eruption' (which was mostly just illusion to cover his trickery) - the actual damage was very localized (just the area the PCs were in), and fairly easy to repair once things settled down.
Tan Chin 'jumped' into one of the adventurers when they thought him destroyed, and he made his escape along with the party. In a pyro-technic display, he teleports his former body (Ambuchar) to his secret hide-away in the Jhorat Citadel (to remain in stasi until eeded).
This allows for several things - it appeared Tan Chin was defeated (thus keeping the integrity/playability of the modules intact), and they witnessed an eruption (as described in the GHotR). Tan Chin really survived to invade Guge (and was defeated yet-again... but also not permanently... why waste a good McGuffin?). An adventurer was 'possessed' by tan Chin - a DM can use this if he wants, or simply say that Tan-Chin vacates at the first opportunity (leaving the PC very bewildered). It also leaves one of the Black artifacts of Imaskar in-play, which DMs can also use, or not (and is also left undetailed, so the DM can choose which he wants to leave).
It also allows the PCs to keep the Stone Scepter of Shih in-play. Because Tan-Chin was not truly defeated, the Stone Scepter would remain in its normal form (and not become the Cursed Berserker -2 as specified in the adventure). However, one can assume in most cases it will be discarded by the aPCs as Shihg had instructed: In that case, tit could still be enclosed in the rock in that chamber in Solon (I wouldn't have Tan-Chin recover it.. unless it was part of a new adventure), or, it could have been destroyed by the molten lava (I said the localized stuff would be real), but since Tan-Chin wasn't defeated, it re-forms elsewhere in The Realms (since artifacts cannot be destroyed permanently unless specific conditions are met... and those weren't if you go with my explanation).
So that should explain-away the inconsistencies, and provide at least three new plot-devices for DMs to use (the Stone Scepter can even reappear in Waterdeep, etc, which is a great way to launch a new string of eastern adventures).
I just want to know why Hubadai didn't come to Bhrokiti's rescue... or did he? 
EDIT:
As for the inconsistencies in time/travel, other 'fixes' were applied to the GhotR, and I would simply say all of the events (of the modules) happened when they were supposed to have happened, in 1359 DR.
|
| Icelander |
Posted - 11 Mar 2012 : 17:25:53
The volcanic eruption of Solon
Despite Brian R. James' kind explanation, I find the mystery of the volcanic eruption in 1360 DR as inexplicable as ever.
It is noted in the list of events for the year before the invasion of Ra-Khati by Tan Chin and his undead legions.
A careful reading of the trilogy of adventures these entries are based, on, however, features a volcanic eruption only as the consequence of adventurers destroying Tan Chin's phylactery and thus exiling him from the Realms.
Even if we were to concede the GHotR sequence of events in 1360 DR as being scrambled and that the eruption was actually meant to post-date the invasion, that still leaves Tan Chin 'alive' and very active for two years after the eruption that was supposedly caused by his defeat.
Tan Chin was clearly not defeated in 1360 DR, or he wouldn't have been able to defeat Ra-Khati, Katakoro settlemets, the western provinces of Shou-Lung and Khazari in the years after that.
Also, the adventure trilogy clearly takes place in 1359 DR, not 1360 DR. Events in it coincide with the 1359 DR Tuigan invasion of Khazari and the 1359 DR Tuigan campaign against Shou Lung. The battle between the Solonese undead and the defenders of Ra-Khati can be dated as taking place very shortly after Eleint 9, 1359 DR, when Yamun Khahan's army left Shou Lung through Khazari. In fact, the outcome, in the adventure, depends on the speed with which the characters manage to accomplish their tasks and whether they manage to meet the Tuigan at Alashan on Eleint 12-13 and lead a force of Hubadai's men to the aid of Ra-Khati.
The distance is about a four day's ride, at the killing pace set by Hubadai and the Tuigan arrive only after the battle is well in train.
There is simply no way that this battle took place in 1360 DR, as by then Hubadai, Yamun Khahan, Batu Min Ho and Chanar Ong Kho, all important figures in the adventure, were already in Rashemen. In fact, they were in Thay only fifty days after these events.
On the other hand, if no adventurers defeated Tan Chin, he would have spent 1360 DR finishing his conquest of Ra-Khati and the Katakoro plateu. That's true enough. As long as no one suggests that he did not raise his armies until that year.
|
| Icelander |
Posted - 11 Mar 2012 : 02:29:02
Caliph Abu Bakr
I had always gone by the description given for him in the Horde Boxed Set, as a lackluster son of a great father, with a much higher opinion of his military skill than his successes warranted.
On the other hand, the fact that he was statted as an 11th level Fighter implied, at least, that he was lackluster in comparison to his great father and inspired generals like those of Yamun Khahan, not, perhaps, in comparison with all national leaders. Add to that the fact that he was only 28 years of age, but had already managed to cleanly and competently remove what appears to have been his father's Regent*, Atabeg Ali al-Mustasib, and Abu Bakr begins to seem like at least marginally competent.
If the Caliph was not an innate genius or natural athlete, he seemed at least to have learned a great deal of skill at arms from his father and fine teachers and while he had some fatal misconceptions about warfare and managed to gut a fine army by not keeping it adequately insulated from politics, he seemed to have a solid grasp on the art of survival and preservation of his own power base.
I had previously marvelled at how Caliph Abu Bakr came through what seemed a very unfavourable situation smelling like roses and with his own power and the sovereignity of his nation both apparently secure. Now, I note that not only did the ca 12 years since his appearance in the Horde materials and the Empires trilogy have him crawl out from under Tuigan suzerainty and into a bright new era, he also apparently gained five levels as a Fighter in the meantime. He is now a 16th level Fighter, which is in the region of the level of Hubadai and his father Yamun Khahan before him.
Now in his early forties, Caliph Abu Bakr, while perhaps no more of an athlete or brilliant scholar, must be accounted as one of the highest level warriors in all the lands between Faerun and Kara-Tur. I suppose a lot of explanations can be advanced for how he rates such a high Fighter level, but the one I think I prefer myself is that in a reign characterised by a series of indolent miscalculations that land him in terrible danger and slyly inspired maneuvering that gets him out of it, he's learned from his mistakes and never made the same one twice.
I'm convinced that Hubadai Khahan was, in 1363 DR, truly determined to gain the trust of his neighbours instead of attempting to conquer them. I base this mostly on the idea that if he had wanted to conquer Semphar and Khazari again in that time, it would not only have been well within his means, but also politically to his benefit. The only reason not to do it would have been ideological, i.e. a desire to be more like a just, beloved king such as Azoun IV than a feared conqueror.
If he was so determined, I think that Caliph Abu Bakr was able to promise a trade allegiance and favourable exchange rates on certain acricultural necessities and gain in return a promise form Hubadai to defend Semphar in the event of an attack by nomads who reject Yaimunnahar, as well as an undertaking by Hubadai Khahan to regularly patrol the dangerous area for caravans between Khazari and Semphar.
Most importantly, I think that the Caliph was able to get Hubadai Khahan to formalise what had been the fact for several years now, that the 2,000 Tuigan left in Semphar would become a part of Semphar's military and train up several changs of mailed Semphari horse archer cavalry.
In fact, I believe that Caliph Abu Bakr started to rebuild the Semphari military as soon as the major part of the Tuigan garrison had left his lands. The threat from Solon would be such an obvious reason to do so that even the most autocratic and stiff-necked Tuigan noyan left in charge could not object. As satrap of Yamun Khahan, the Caliph was after all responsible for maintaining the integrity of this part of the Khaganate.
The authority of the Caliph under the Tuigan was, of course, severely curtailed when the old Regent, Atabeg Ali al-Mutasib, who had ruled in his name until forcibly removed by the Abu Bakr long after he came of age. I imagine that immediately upon starting the rumours about the Tuigan having forced him into all his unpopular decisions, the Caliph took care to include inflammatory references to the perfidity of that inveterate servant of the Tuigan, Ali al-Mutasib. By 1361 DR at the latest, he would have been in a position to make a very plausible claim to the commander of the remaining garrison that in order for him to be able to hold Semphar as a satrap in trust for any heir of Yamun Khahan, it was necessary to remove Atabeg Ali al-Mutasib.
Of course, that worthy was by all accounts a seasoned plotter and intriguer himself and he would have seen the writing on the wall well before. Well aware that he lacked enough royal blood to risk having the people choose between him and the Caliph, as well as knowing well enough that by publicly siding with the Tuigan he had squandered almost all goodwill he ever had in Semphari politics, the Atabeg would have been faced with having to look to some foreign land for sanctuary.
With Hubadai lost since the Second Battle of the Golden Way, no amount of rumours of his survival or his planned return to the steppes to claim his inheritance would have been likely to convince al-Mutasib to place all his eggs in a hypothetical baseket. If he was not in direct contact with Hubadai, he would look elsewhere for his safe haven. If Hubadai travelled alone in Faerun, his concubines would have been left with whomever had command of the Yunichaar that once belonged to Yamun Khahan. There al-Mutasib could find his daughter, Dura. On the other hand, he could hardly expect to pry her from the hands of ten thousand slave-warrior fanatics by himself and it is not likely he would expect much hope for advancement in a travelling harem guarded by an army of slaves.
No, I would expect Atabeg Ali al-Mutasib to try a variation on an old trick. Last time he tried to use the Tuigan to help him get back the power he wanted, now he tries to get the Mulhorandi to do the same. He'll go to Skuld. He might travel to Thay first, seeking news of Hubadai, but he'll end up in Skuld, trying to convince the Pharoah to retake Semphar and make him governor in the Pharoah's name.
Meanwhile, Caliph Abu Bakr, now free of the baleful influence of his uncle**, would have campaigned with the Tuigan noyan left in charge of Semphar against bands of undead out of Solon***. Recruiting among those veterans who still lived and had not been conscripted for the Tuigan Grand Army, he would have taken care to choose a new crop of officers of a birth humble or provincial enough to be awed by the Caliphate and prepared to regard him as near-divine. From the fact that he is still alive in five levels higher, I conclude that he proved able to learn and learn well from the Tuigan noyan who must have done much of the real generaling at first.
Given a decade of friendly relationship with Yaimunnahar after Hubadai came back, I imagine that Caliph Abu Bakr is busily trying to rebuild Semphari fortunes. While trade with Shou Lung is still only a trickle, Abu Bakr was no doubt able to earn back much of the tribute he paid into Tuigan coffers by selling Hubadai everything he needed to found a modern realm on the Taan. While Yaimunnahar still exports little of value to 'civilised' folk, Semphari traders are no doubt able to make a small profit from commerce with the fledgling realm.
Lack of monetary reserves would be the primary obstacle in the way of rebuilding the Semphari military. I imagine that as Semphari mail and good steel weapons would sell at a premium to Yaimunnahar, it would be hard to re-equip the military at the same time. No doubt Caliph Abu Bakr has subtly encouraged his two thousand Tuigan to spend part of what Hubadai pays them to garb themselves in glittering mail, even magical mail for the more cosmopolititan among them.
As for his re-emerging local army, I expect that so far, it is small and lightly equipped, with the exception of any armaments that were successfully hidden during the occupation. But to make up for this, what cavalry the Semphari now have is trained to the standard of the Tuigan garrison, as well as being educated in the theory of combined arms and high strategy.
Caliph Abu Bakr no doubt has had ample opportunity to repent of his treatment of the mages in his old military and would try his best to entice them back. As an added bonus, they require no equipment from national armories.
Sappers and siege engineers would pay for themselves, in being hired out to his ever-useful allies, the Tuigan, in building Kourmira.
The infantry is probably the weakest. There is no reason to expect them to be better trained than before the war and the lack of money for heavy armour would hurt them more than the cavalry, because they can't adopt harassing tactics like light horse archers can. Still, you can't defend fortresses or take and hold ground without infantry, so they are necessary. Also, Caliph Abu Bakr has, in my opinion, learned his lesson about the necessity for joint operations and smooth cooperation between branches of the military.
He's probably still searching for good instructors for his infantry, as well as trying to raise enough money to equip a few good niqoms with good mail. Nothing like a well-armoured professional military.
In the long term, Semphar looks good to have a strong army and solid (if self-interested) government. As soon as Yaimunnahar starts to export something of real value or the Silk Road starts to bring wealth from Shou Lung again, about five years of tidy revenue ought to be enough to finish rebuilding the Semphari military. And Caliph Abu Bakr, if perhaps not the son that al-Hamid, the Lion of Semphar, would have wanted, is definitely no longer a 'lackluster son' of a greater sire. He is his own thing and if it is not a glamorous and admirable role, it is still more than many other national leaders can say.
*And unwilling to give up his power.
**By courtesy, at least, and I suspect that he may well be a maternal uncle. It would account for the elaborate means of comfortable exile instead of a simple execution. Refusal to step down as Regent is indubitably treason and warrants execution in almost any jurisdiction. There has to be some reason for allowing the sentence to be commuted to a benign form of home confinement.
***While Raja Ambuchar Devayam didn't seem to invade Semphar in force, I can't imagine that he was all that concerned with whether any bands of ravening ghouls happened to pop over the borders between duties. If nothing else, I imagine that he would have been quite happy to release self-replicating undead in all directions if it would interfere with the ability or willingness of any power to come to the rescue of Ra-Khati, Katakoro, Shou Lung and Khazari. |
| Icelander |
Posted - 07 Mar 2012 : 12:34:30
quote:
Originally posted by Lord Karsus
-The size of the steppes and surrounding environs is a lot larger than I've always given them credit for (though, they are presented as on the large side on maps, mind you).
The supercontinent of Faerun, Kara-Tur and Zakhara is large. Toril is 12% bigger than Earth and this supercontinent is at least 60-70% of the landmass on Toril.
I eyeball it as being larger than Eurasia and North Africa combined.
I always get a laugh out of estimates like the population of Faerun being 70 million. Considering the evidence of widespread urbanisation, high yield of developed farmland, a degree of economic specialisation on a national level that in our world post-dated mercantilism and as a corollary of this, the obvious cosmopolitan trade network** that links all human communities of Faerun in the 1300s DR, any attempt to apply medieval economics to the Realms falls flat.
Since the medieval world remained the medieval world only as long as capital accumulation apart from real estate was difficult, extensive trade with on that scale and efficiency shoots any resemblence to a medieval society down in tatters. There are independent cities whose subsidence needs are met almost entirely with imported foodstuffs from regions that specialise in food production with magical assistance, and as a result, food is manufactured extremely efficiently. As anyone will note who cares to compare the cost of food staples with the cost of metal** or any kind of skilled labour.
Fortunately, Ed doesn't seem to be aiming to portray a medieval society, featuring as he does the social struggle between merchants and aristocratic landowners as a theme in many works. The Realms seems quite deliberately to exist at a level of technology achieved with fairly integrated magic and, thus, is entirely its own and not precisely analoguous to any Earth society. But if we were to assign the setting to a 'tech level' based on economic factors and the consequent societal processes, it wouldn't be far wrong to peg it close to the 19th century.
This also means that the surface of Faerun alone could support at minimum 300 million people (with a theoretical carrying capacity at their current technology levels of far more than that), with Shou Lung and Hu' Lung probably supporting even more. The Underdark appears to be a huge ecosystem with no equivalents on Earth, so I won't speculate about that.
Why aren't all these people listed in products? Well, no supplement I've read claims to count all the people who live on land not claimed by any organised nation, and, in any event, the 70 million claim is derived from adding together the listed population for only the major powers, even when such populations might well include only full 'citizens' that are counted in a census, not any foreign traders, adventurers, caravan guards and suchlike, nor, perhaps, slaves, foreign labourers or even, in the most extreme cases, anyone not owning land.
Most importantly, the 'uncivilised' races are many, many times more numerous than the 'civilised' ones. Even though a lot of the orcs and goblins that occasionally gather in hordes and fall upon civilised lands will for the most part counted in the 'Underdark' ecosystem, living as many of them seem to do in caves and warrens, no doubt such creatures also hunt and scavenge on the surface, using up a lot of the 'spare' carrying capacity.
At best tangentially related, but I thought of it and it has to do with recent events on the steppes, I very much dislike when authors who don't know the Realms well try to transplant 'medieval' stories there wholesale. It doesn't work very well. As an example, it jarred me a lot to hear the lords of Cormyr's cities pledge hundreds and thousands of 'their' troops to the King's cause against the Tuigan, ostensibly in lieu of their own service in his armies.
Cormyr isn't a feudal monarchy. Nobles aren't allowed private armies. Even if they were, the lords of the cities of Cormyr are not representatives of its hereditary noble classes, they are appointed officials of the King and command Purple Dragons sworn to and paid by the Crown.
The appropriate analogy for Cormyr's noble families is not the barons of feudal England, the most powerful of whom might have incomes and field armies larger than the Kings, but rather the aristocracy of a centralised monarchy like Tudor England, where nobles have certain rights and a lot of prestige, but are not a 'state-within-the-state' allowed to field armies that do not answer to the King.
On the other hand, I can easily believe, and in fact, would argue for were it not already present, that societies that are not part of the extensive network of trade which enables efficient economic specialisation are effectively at a much lower 'tech level'. Individuals there might be able to obtain technological artifacts made by the most advanced craftsmen, but the economy of these places will still be driven by much more 'medieval' and even 'Migrations period' factors.
And in those cases, we get 'primitive' societies like the Tuigan existing next to far richer and more 'advanced' societies.*** This also means that their population density will be only a fraction of the more efficient food-production societies or those who can afford to trade with them, but when your territory is huge, even sparse people add up.
This also neatly explains how 200,000 Tuigan in their first huge battle rode roughshod over a Shou regular army of 300,000 and noble armies of almost that much, but 100,000 Tuigan (of which many must have been veterans) were slaughtered by 30,000 Allegiance troops. The Shou army is out-of-date and neglected, while the soldiers of the Allegiance had access to such technological**** force multipliers as solid metal plates being cheap enough to equip a lot of them with light and strong body armour, as well as having a coordinated group of mages providing intelligence, command & control, battlespace shaping and precision strike capability.
*Using sailing technology which had reached late 16th century equivalents on Earth by ca 1300 DR and continues advancement at that pace, to judge by such advanced proto-types as Deudermont's Sea Sprite and the Osprey in Ravens Bluff, both 19th century clippers, the absolute pinnacle of sailing ship design. Shipbuilding in the Realms, whether deliberately or accidentally by certain designers and authors, has been canonically established as being lightyears ahead of anything in the medieval world.
**Itself far cheaper in the Realms than historical Earth, due to the greater ease of mining when magic is available, as well as the possibility of bringing the more valuable metals from other planes. Pretty much the only thing that is expensive in the Realms are labour costs, which is pretty normal for a world where the utilisation of resources and production methods are made efficient by magic and by regional specialisation. What has the most impact on the final price of finished product is the same thing that usually affects cost the most in our world. How valuable is the time of the people who have to prepare it for you?
***Incidentally, unless Shou Lung greatly improves trade routes, both internally and to the rest of the world, as well as moving away from their assumption of automatic cultural and technological superiority, they'll fall ever further behind Faerun. Any advantage that Shou Lung previously held has been made up and surpassed and Shou Lung needs to start building fleets and trading extensively with Zakhara, as well as circumnavigating it and trading with Chult, Amn, Calimshan and the Shining South.
****In the Realms, magic is technology. It's less democratic than technology usable by everyone, but that only limits its spread, it doesn't alter the fact that it has precisely the same effects on economics and warfare as having higher technology does. |
| Lord Karsus |
Posted - 06 Mar 2012 : 22:52:48
-The size of the steppes and surrounding environs is a lot larger than I've always given them credit for (though, they are presented as on the large side on maps, mind you). |
| Icelander |
Posted - 06 Mar 2012 : 20:48:19
quote:
Originally posted by Lord Karsus
-How viable is that number, realistically looking at things? If there are 300,000 troops, you also figure there is a semi-sizable number of women, children, and the elderly as well. Say that makes a total of 500,000 living on the steppes. Add to that their aversion to magic, and nomadic lifestyles (numerous, numerous horses to graze, etc.), is that a remotely feasible number, looking at things critically instead of, "Eh, it's a fantasy world, it doesn't need to make sense" (as seen in that Cormyr lineage thread, for example)?
Well, for 300,000 warriors, assuming that the population is relatively stable, you need far more than 200,000 women and children.
As noted earlier, a plausible number for that many would be 1,500,000 steppe nomads in total. 1,000,000 is the absolute minimum it could have been, but that would have been pushing plausibility.
On the other hand, given that the territory that the nomads can range over is approximately 1,500,000 square miles, this puts their population density somewhere between the absolute lowest for hunter-gatherers and 1/4th of modern Mongolia.
Given that modern Mongolia is, on average, worse land* than the Endless Wastes and that herders usually live in more dense communities than hunter-gatherers, it wouldn't be implausible to double that population and still remain within the bounds of the perfectly reasonable.
On the other hand, that's how many could live there in relative comfort without adopting any new technology or methods. The reason for the low number of only 1,500,000 before Yamun Khahan's wars would be found in the endemic warfare and raiding of the tribes, which not only kills the participating men, but leaves many women and children without providers and many smaller ordus without animals to sustain life.
So the people of the Taangan were depopulated before the wars and are going to be worse off when Hubadai comes home from them. Which is why it makes perfect sense that he'd want to change their way of life for something less harsh and unforgiving.
*The elevation and the fact that it's completely landlocked, much further away from open water than the Hordelands of Faerun, mean that the best land of Mongolia is about equal to the normal steppeland, but areas such as the Great Amber Steppes and strips close to mountains and even the coast of the Yal Tengri (cold, but moderated by the sea) are more livable. Also, there is no evidence that the climatic extremes on the Hordelands are as severe as in Mongolia, which is one of the primary reasons it's almost impossible to survive there. |
| Lord Karsus |
Posted - 06 Mar 2012 : 20:08:04
-How viable is that number, realistically looking at things? If there are 300,000 troops, you also figure there is a semi-sizable number of women, children, and the elderly as well. Say that makes a total of 500,000 living on the steppes. Add to that their aversion to magic, and nomadic lifestyles (numerous, numerous horses to graze, etc.), is that a remotely feasible number, looking at things critically instead of, "Eh, it's a fantasy world, it doesn't need to make sense" (as seen in that Cormyr lineage thread, for example)? |
| Icelander |
Posted - 06 Mar 2012 : 08:19:27
Size of the Tuigan Horde
I guesstimated the number of 'Tuigan' under Yamun Khahan at 300,000. Reading Horselords and Dragonwall, the largest number I've seen him command at one time is between 215,000-260,000, depending on the size of the Semphar garrison at the time that particular report arrives. This excludes any ordus employed in guarding the borders of his lands and those warriors still at home, defending against the remnants of defeated ordus.
Edit: Analysis of the available data puts the total number of warriors under Yamun Khahan at the Dragonwall at 210,000. Added to that number must be 40,000 warriors under Hubadai that did not manage to join with the main force until at Yenching, 10,000 warriors under 'Prince' Jadaran Khan campaigning in Khazari and 5,000 warriors garrisoning Semphar. Excluding any other garrisons and warriors who are needed to provide at least minimal security to each ordu on the steppes, Yamun Khahan therefore commanded fully 265,000 full-time warriors as he rode against the Shou, incorporated into military units and living outside the economy of the steppes.
Even with this many in the field, Yamun Khahan apparently seriously considered that going back to the steppes to raise another army if he lost at the Dragonwall was a viable option. He might have been boasting, but given that the possibility is discussed as part of a private (and rare) admission that he can be defeated, I doubt that he was.
So 300,000 warriors whose khans pledged to Yamun Khanan isn't an unreasonable guess. On the other hand, I can see that I underestimated the losses of the Tuigan.
They actually lost something in the vicinity of 200,000 warriors in the wars. At least 90,000 in Shou Lung, 70,000 at the Golden Way and a lesser number in other battles. On the other hand, even after the Lake of Tears and a winter of Rashemi guerilla warfare, the Tuigan had 25,000 more warriors in the spring than they took into Thay. So a very large draft of replacements between Szass Tam's exact count and the count of the Witches of Rashemen at the beginning of the next campaigning season.
Edit: I underestimated the losses in Shou Lung and overestimated those in Thesk. The Tuigan actually lost 130,000 men in Shou Lung, leaving only 120,000 warriors to ride away from there. Some of the 'lost' might have become casualties, but still lived to reach the steppes again, but I wouldn't bet on them being many. The Shou might have been almost broken on the battlefield and unable to mount effective cavalry pursuit in any case, but their peasant farmers in Mai Yuan would not have been kindly disposed to wounded Tuigan trying to escape.
After losing approximately 8,000 of their number in two small battles against Thay, almost exactly 100,000 Tuigan warriors invaded Rashemen. Given that they picked up new recruits around the Lake of Mists and the Icerim Mountains, it seems that at least 10,000-20,000 of those who made it back home from Shou Lung did not participate in the western war. No doubt these were men who had taken bad wounds but still managed to keep up with the army in Shou as well as those whose families were not likely to survive winter without them.
Some may only have been granted leave, of course, as there was an enormous influx of new troops in the spring, men who must have ridden from the steppes through Thay or Rashemen to enter Thesk with the main army.
In the invasion of Rashemen, the Tuigan lost few men at first. There are no precise numbers given, but their number is given as 100,000 total both before and after the first months of fighting. I'd put it below 5,000 in losses. Over the winter, at least 5,000 Tuigan lost their lives in ambushes and skirmishes, as well as to the elements. Finally, in the battle of Lake Ashane (or the Lake of Tears), the Tuigan lost some 15,000 men, reducing them to a total of just over 60,000*.
However, shortly after that, when spring arrived, the Tuigan had received enough reinforcements to be able to field an army of 100,000 in Thesk while leaving in place the 25,000 warriors assigned to keeping Rashemen too occupied to be able to resist the Thayans or follow the Tuigan horde and fall on their rear as they faced enemies in Thesk.
This means that they received 40,000 new warriors, which, even if we assume that the ones they left on the steppes before invading Thay mostly came back from leave, still demands that close to 30,000 warriors that were previously not used for any of Yamun Khahan's campaigns were called up. Well, 3,000 of them came from Semphar's garrison and so have been counted before, but that leaves 27,000 that either came from stripping other garrisons and reserve forces or were simply the fruits of a new age cohort growing to maturity.
I thought that the Allegiance of the West had chewed up the Tuigan after Yamun Khahan fell, but I note now that the Faerunian forces did not pursue. This means that apart from the 30,000 Tuigan who fell in the first battle, the losses from the second battle were negliable. Yamun fell with 50 of his attendants, not several thousand as I thought I remembered, which suggests that his Kashik was still mostly intact. The main body of the Tuigan horde was not so much defeated on the field in the second battle as it was tricked so that Azoun IV could bring Khahan to single combat.
While a lot of horses might have been crippled by the illusory ground hiding pit trips, it's implausible to assume that the first rank of a cavalry charge against 15,000 men would concentrate more than 15,000 cavalry in front of them, with the rest arriving in successive lines (standard tactics for any successful cavalry force, precisely to avoid getting the whole force tangled up in case of casualties) or trying to flank.
And these 15,000 would not all arrive at the exact same line at the exact same time. Tuigan are great horsemen and many would have been able to swerve or stop. In addition, while a crippled horse and a bad fall might result in death or serious injury for the rider, the skill, experience and agility of the rider are vital variables in how likely this is. All told, even if 4,000-8,000 horses fell into the traps, this wouldn't be likely to cause more than 2,000-4,000 permanent casualties** to the Tuigan, who rode to war with at least two spare horses per man (and who would have extra spares from the previous days casualties).
That should leave ca 65,000-70,000 veterans of the Horde to make their way back, in addition to the ca 25,000 in Rashemen. No doubt the Rashemi force was quick to abandon their siege and ride to the steppes. The Rashemi are unlikely to have interfered with their attempt to leave, being war-weary already and lacking a cavalry force to give credible pursuit at any rate.
On the other hand, analysis of the last chapters of Crusade indicates that the actual strength of the Tuigan who kept ranks and made it back might have been nearer 50,000 warriors. It is not mentioned where the rest went and the inference is that they became casualties in the battle, but given that many Tuigan remained behind in Thesk for years and Rashemen, Thesk and Thay were forced to expend a lot of effort and blood in getting rid of bands of Tuigan raiders, I'm going to assume that 10,000-15,000 Tuigan stayed behind and/or later fell in skirmishes with Rashemi forces and mercenaries hired to open the Golden Way.
This new data indicates that apart from men who became casualties, but somehow made it home by other means than as part of the retreating armies from Shou Lung and Thesk, around 75,000 'Tuigan' came home from Yamun Khahan's foreign wars. That's from some 300,000 who were engaged at various times.
In addition to those would have been some minimal garrisons back home, of whom we know about the 10,000 warriors subduing Khazari lords under 'Prince' Jadaran Khan and the 2,000 Tuigan in Semphâr.
Assuming (in the absence of better data) that tribal losses were distributed about evenly and without reference to post-war politics, Hubadai ought to eventually inherit ca 60% of these veterans, based on the list of supporter tribes. Assuming a correlation between loyalty to Yamun's heir and fighting to the death in his last battle (as opposed to e.g. a reverse correlation of the worst affected tribes rejecting any supratribal rule) and/or some opposition even among veterans from those tribes whose Khans support Hubadai, let's say he ends up with around 30,000 veterans.
It is canon, meanwhile, that at least one other son than Hubadai was with the army and survived the battles. Also that Chanar Ong Kho still lived and was gathering strong support among those who had resented the Khahan's rule.
Without any firm evidence, I'll place Tomke in command of three tumen*** in Rashemen. He appears to be Yamun Khahan's eldest son and trusted to operate independently. In addition, the tasks he is assigned supports an interpretation that he is adept at raiding and terrorising the enemy. Given that Yamun Khahan claimed to be holding him in reserve before riding on Khazari and was joined with significant numbers of troops from all directions just before invading Shou Lung, I'll assume he was with the army since the Dragonwall.
It also makes sense that if Yamun Khahan sent for reinforcements from the steppe that one of his sons would have gone and taken command of them. That could have been either Hubadai or Tomke, since 'Prince' Jadaran Khan was never relieved from his duties in Khazari and the only other named son of Yamun Khahan was mentioned only to die. Besides, if Tuigan law is based on Turkic-Mongol law, it seems rather clear that there existed many sons born to concubines who were valued only if they showed promise.
Hubadai, as the only son of a 'Chief Wife'/'First Empress' among them would have been the only lawful heir. 'Prince' Jadaran Khan appears by title and the conversations of other characters about him to have been well-born even if he was not the son of the Khahan's First Empress and he seemed at least theoretically acceptable as Khahan. Tomke, being the eldest but never mentioned as a potential heir or given prestigious (as opposed to difficult) leadership positions, is likely to have been the son of a very low-ranking concubine, perhaps even of embarrassing blood**** .
I'm guessing that Tomke, blood or no blood, was able to retain command over his three tumen while heading home, though he may not have been able to trust them all in battle against another potential heir. On seeing that the remains of the Theskan army were larger than his own force, so even if they fought, his odds were poor, I imagine that Tomke rode to the lands in the east, where he'd been campaigning for some years (and where his origin may lie).
I doubt more than 10,000-15,000 of his men followed him. Tomke was apparently capable, but he lacked the dash and drive of his father or even his younger brothers, as Horselords makes clear. Nevertheless, many have proven endlessly ambitious and tireless haters without having more than a second-rate talent to their name. He could no doubt recruit with some success among the eastern ordus by promising warriors loot from Shou Lung, now without a wall and fighting another enemy after a war that had left them all but supine.
Chanar Ong Kho***** would have claimed the title of Khahan by right of experience, prowess and reputation. Backing him would be a number of Tuigan khans (most likely Chanar's own clan, of which is father Taidju Khan was chief, is one of the Tuigan clans) and the Khassidi, a people he defeated in a campaign fought without Yamun Khahan and whose surrender was made to Chanar and not Yamun.
A lot of Naican might also follow him and a case might even be made that Chanar is Naican. I incline against this view, given that Taidju Khan who is Chanar's father apparently commands his own people and the Naican are mentioned seperately, as being under To'orl. Also, Chanar speaks about fighting 'with the help of the Naican', but calls himself a 'prince of the Tuigan', which I think implies that he considers himself Tuigan and not Naican.
Edit: Thank you, tiny throw-away line in the beginning of The Horde Campaign that onlly makes sense when interpreted along with Yamun's story in Horselords! The Tuigan clan that Taidju Khan led and Chanar has presumably inherited is called the Basymits. He's Basymit Chanar, granted the title 'Ong Kho' by Yamun as he becomes Khahan of the Tuigan in 1335 DR and later becoming Chanar Khan of the Basymit clan on the death of his father. As the last title is somewhat less prestigious than being the Right Hand/Governor-Prince of the Khahan of all the Tuigan, he rarely used it.
In any case, I imagine that he calls himself either Chanar Ong Khahan or just plain Chanar Khahan by now. I like Chanar Ong Khahan, actually, as Ong was used alongside qaghan/khan/etc. in the real world and fits well.
Chanar would no doubt have fought Hubadai some time after the Second Battle of the Golden Way, once he'd made sure of enough khans, but Hubadai leaving would have prevented the decisive battle he wanted. Even so, I am sure that Chanar ended up with at least 25,000-30,000 veterans, since he'd be able to appeal to those of Tomke's army who didn't fancy his leadership and some of the younger men from the ordus of the unaligned khans.
Since it is canon that Hubadai chose the years immediately after his father's death to travel Faerun in secret, but was nevertheless able to successfully declare himself Khahan upon coming home, he must have made some good preparations. I expect he asked the khans of ordus and tribes who indicated a willingness to obey the law and acclaim him heir of Yamun Khahan to go home to their yurts, rebuild and avoid any commitments one way or another toward any other claimants.
His father's Yunichaar, not mentioned in any of the six detailed descriptions of battles given in The Horde Campaign, not to mention never mentioned in the Empires trilogy, is unlikely to have been with the army at all. It makes sense that Yamun Khahan would have had to leave at least some force to guard his wives and young children, not to mention the wealth of Quaraband, while he was at war. And foreign-born slave soldiers of fanatical loyalty sound perfect, because not only are they capable troops, but they don't resent being left out of the chance for glory in the war as much as Tuigan warriors.
I expect that in command of them was someone on whom Hubadai felt he could rely****** and that he asked this paragon of loyalty to take refuge with Quaraband in the lands of loyal khans until he came back. Incredibly, it looks like that succeeded, and neither Chanar 'Khahan' nor any other son of Yamun Khahan was able to get himself acclaimed Khahan in the three years that passed with Hubadai away. Nor did anyone massacre his Yunichaar.
Tomke no doubt expected a trap from Hubadai and dared not believe that he was gone, squandering his chance while he slowly built a power base in the east and raided Shou Lung. But it was a very poor showing from Chanar Ong Kho, whose poor judgment in politics was not supposed to be any reflection on his military instincts. Yamun Khahan rated him as the best of his commanders and maybe even better than himself at battlefield trickery, a 'fox on the battlefield'. We must perchance assume a political miscalculation, i.e. Chanar expected that Hubadai had fled for good and that if he covered himself with enough glory, the Yunichaar and recalcitrant chiefs would join with him.
I'll speculate more in another post about what Chanar might have been doing for these three years.
The numbers above make any surving warriors at home more numerically significant in perspective than I initially believed. It also means that by 1373 DR, both Yaïmmunnahar and the indepenent tribes will have access to a pool of potential warriors far exceeding their veterans of the Horde. I think I'll examine the probable age distribution of the steppes around Yamun Khahan's wars and the subsequent demographics in a seperate post, to find out exactly how things stand some 10-15 years.
*In addition to the 5,000 besieging Citadel Rashemen and the 20,000 dispatched all over Rashemen to forage, to loot and to draw out its armies to respond to threats that had long since ridden away.
**Men so wounded that they could not even be tied into the saddle of their other horse, to make it back home. The total lack of pursuit would have made this feasible for any but the most devastating injuries. Even injuries likely to render a Tuigan warrior hors d' combat for months might not be enough to prevent a tough man from hanging on a saddle if the alternative is capture (and by their code of behaviour, either death or worse).
***By this time, the ideal composition of the Tuigan horde did not represent its true reality. Tumen that had been heavily engaged often went down to as little as five thousand, with any that got smaller than five thousand being combined to bring a new tumen up to strength.
****Foreign nobility or even just 'high-class' concubines from the lands around are not embarrassing, but being descended from a Taangan family sunk low enough to be slaves would be. So would being from a mother who was raped in battle, as opposed to being taken as a prize and married (or given as part of a peace treaty). If the family of the mother had betrayed the Khan, it would also qualify for embarrassing enough to account for why no one ever mentions Tomke as a potential heir.
*****By Tuigan naming patterns, the clan name (counted from a matrilinear ancestor with the status of 'Chief Wife') appears to come first and then a personal name. The clan name is used only on very formal occasions (we don't know if it would also be appropriate for more intimate settings, but it is at any rate not used between friends or colleagues). If any name follows the personal name that is the only name most are known by, it is either a nick-name or a title. Yamun Khahan was thus named Hoekun Yamun, rose to become Yamun Khan and later Yamun Khahan. We know that Chanar is the personal name of Chanar Ong Kho, because he is once refered to as Chanar Khan. This means that Ong Kho is either a nickname or a title. 'Ong' was a title of rulership among real-world Turkic-Mongols, higher than 'Khan', but lower than 'Khagan'. 'Kho' is not likely to be from an Altaic root at all (except in Korean and Japanese, where it might result from Chinese influence), but given the relationship between the languages of Shou Lung and Khazari, for example, equating it with the real-world 'kho' = 'governor' might be viable. In that case, 'Ong Kho' would mean 'Prince and Regent' or something like that, i.e. marking him as the most favored of the Khahan's nobles and commanders, apart from his sons. Alternatively, 'Ong' might come from 'Onggar' or 'right hand' and 'Kho' might refer to 'feet, motion', making Chanar's title approximately 'Roving Right Hand', signifying the trust Yamun once had for him and justifying the fact that he apparently fought whole wars without input from Yamun Khahan in the past.
******Most likely someone of less-than-gentle birth and no glorious reputation, chosen for loyalty rather than tactical acumen. Without the patronage of the Khahan, he would be nothing and he would have no chance at all of becoming Khahan himself, as no one would support him. He may even be a slave himself. |
| Icelander |
Posted - 04 Mar 2012 : 20:23:04
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
I will try to find the names of those Kalmyk/Suren leaders from the novel - I will have to search my own posts.
You need not exert yourself in that any more, Markus. I've gotten the book and tracked it down.
I'll post it in my other scroll, where it fits. |
| Icelander |
Posted - 04 Mar 2012 : 13:48:23
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
I have always assumed Tros was the capital of Tsharoon - that 'lost city' in the Merket depression (Oasis).
Could very well be.
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
In my own history, the city, and then the entire nation, was stricken with madness (which I attribute to the demon, of course).
Whatever happened to them, Tsaroon was still known and not under desert in 237 DR, according to Dragon #228. So if the Copper Tyrant caused that realm to fall, he would have had to do so almost five centuries after being slain in -240 DR. Which would imply that he returned to the Realms at that time. Do we have any hints in lore that there was a second reign of terror by the Copper Demon in the 3rd century of Dalereckoning?
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
In the end, he was too powerful to control, and would usually run amok on the battlefield killing anything that moved, and so they imprisoned him... until he was able to break free when the Great Conflagration occurred (where both his tormentors fell). He went into hiding, taking over and uniting northern tribes of Horselords and influencing the growing decadence in the nation of Tsharoon, until he was ready to strike in -247 (a period of 87 years).
Note that you're working with negative numbers of years. The date of the Great Conflagration, -160 to -150 DR, is not before the date of the Copper Demon's reign, it is after it.
-247 DR is 247 years before the raising of the Standing Stone.
-160 DR is 160 years before the same event, or in other words, 87 years later.
The Copper Demon has to have escaped well before the fall of Raumathar and Narfell. As I don't view it as a subtle creature, I imagine that its escape was not too long before it enters the written record in -248 DR, but it is, of course, possible that the seizing of the eastern lands of the horse nomands was the result of an intricate plan measured in decades or centuries, and not simply an orgy of blood and conquest taking place in a few years.
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
'Sorcere' is from Earth-east,
It comes from Vulgar Latin, originally through Latin by a root related to 'sorting' which was linked to a divinatory practice of drawing lots. European and Western in origin, I'm afraid.
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
and since Imaskar has much Middle-eastern influence (having interacted with the Egyptians and others) I assume this is the origin of the term in the Realms (Sha'ir is Zakharan for 'Sorcerer').
Imaskar doesn't actually show much Middle Eastern influence, apart from having employed slaves from the area in the last age of its history. There are no signs that the Imaskari ever adopted any of the languages or titles of their Mulan slaves.
Also, what we today call the Middle East is mostly shaped by languages and cultures originating in Africa. At the time the Imaskari took slaves there, the languages and cultures that we associate with the Middle East mostly weren't there and for those who were, they were located pretty far from where the Imaskari seem to have raided.
Ancient Egyptian is less related to the real world language that gave us "Sha'ir" than English is to Russian. As for the Untheri, while one of the two languages in the Sprachbund from whence spring the Untheri is considered to belong to the same language family as Arabic, this is deceptive. The relationship is no closer than that between English and Icelandic and in many ways far more distant.
What real-world influences can be spotted in Imaskari language and culture are Central Asian.
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Also, the Imaskari have been referred to as Sorcerers in early lore (which is why I think Theraeval had some influence from the Imaskari, whether is was through Hilathar or not). There is no canon basis for that supposition - its just a very convenient way to fudge a strange bit of lore (that the Land Of Alabaster Towers has zero known about it, its an easy 'scapegoat' for these odd bits). It is my way of injecting some Imaskari into Netheril indirectly.
Pretty much every culture has some equivalent to the term 'sorcerer' and its use in descriptive text aimed at the real-world reader is not as etymologically significant as when it's used in titles that clearly apply within the culture itself.
I'm not saying that Thaeravel might not have had some connection to Imaskar. It might. Just that the fact that both had sorcerers isn't necessarily a clue. I mean, in the Realms, the drow use the word 'Sorcere' and it might just as well be an Ilithyri word.
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
It is my understanding that Quoya was fertile during the time of Tsharoon. Not only did that nation exist there, but there are indications in the Hordelands material. I even assume a waterway between a lake where the Merket depression now stands leading to Gbor Nor, and another that lead down to a another lake at the site of the Imaskari capital of Inupras (connecting various portions of the empire by sea trade).
The almost continous mountain ranges that lie between Quoya and the nearest ocean (absorbing moisture from the air, creating the forests seen around the mountains), not to mention the sheer distances from other sources of water, pretty much ensures that this will always be a very dry area. Intensive irrigation, magical or otherwise, can make it livable, but there is nothing especially surprising about there being a desert in this location.
In addition, the split of Imaskar into Upper and Lower Kingdoms being where it was indicates that there was probably not a trade highway through there, intergrating the economies of Limia or Semphar with locations in what became the Upper Kingdom. The spread of the plague that caused the Shaartra years also gives a pretty solid indication that the Upper Kingdom must have been fairly seperate from the Lower by natural barriers. The most plausible barrier is the Quoya, perhaps smaller than today, but still there.
You could use it in your own campaigns, of course, but for official lore, it's pretty doubtful.
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
I will try to find the names of those Kalmyk/Suren leaders from the novel - I will have to search my own posts. I'm not able to locate which map the imperial dynasties was on, but I'll keep looking for that. It was on a map I owned physically, and the only K-T source I owned that wasn't a pdf was the box set, and yet, I can't find it on those ATM. It could just be I got a badly scanned pdf (it happens - I bought quite a few of them before WotC stopped Paizo from selling them).
I'm trying to find a copy of Horselords, but I'd appreciate it if you come across something.
And I have no words to describe the raging stupidity that would drive a company to make it impossible to buy their products in order to protect the value of their investments in those products. It's like smearing faeces over your sandwich to make sure that no one tries to steal a bite of it.
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
While looking for certain dates, I did find THIS - the stuff on the L-List can usually be taken as canon (most of it came from designers back in the day). You may find it of some use.
Thanks. |
| Markustay |
Posted - 04 Mar 2012 : 05:31:01
I have always assumed Tros was the capital of Tsharoon - that 'lost city' in the Merket depression (Oasis).
In my own history, the city, and then the entire nation, was stricken with madness (which I attribute to the demon, of course).
Ma Yuan was in the 1e Deities & Demigods, in the Chinese pantheon - he is an archfiend/demi-power that is known as the "Killer of the Gods". He was used in someone else's homebrew here at the keep, regarding the Oriental deities during the ToT. My assumption here is that he was summoned by the Narfeli Demonbinders during the war, and then imprisoned within a special Raumathari Horned Horror (the demonic version of a Helmed Horror), and then turned against his summoners.
In the end, he was too powerful to control, and would usually run amok on the battlefield killing anything that moved, and so they imprisoned him... until he was able to break free when the Great Conflagration occurred (where both his tormentors fell). He went into hiding, taking over and uniting northern tribes of Horselords and influencing the growing decadence in the nation of Tsharoon, until he was ready to strike in -247 (a period of 87 years).
'Sorcere' is from Earth-east, and since Imaskar has much Middle-eastern influence (having interacted with the Egyptians and others) I assume this is the origin of the term in the Realms (Sha'ir is Zakharan for 'Sorcerer'). Also, the Imaskari have been referred to as Sorcerers in early lore (which is why I think Theraeval had some influence from the Imaskari, whether is was through Hilathar or not). There is no canon basis for that supposition - its just a very convenient way to fudge a strange bit of lore (that the Land Of Alabaster Towers has zero known about it, its an easy 'scapegoat' for these odd bits). It is my way of injecting some Imaskari into Netheril indirectly.
There is a quasi-canonical bit of lore regarding the two - that the Imaskari saw a flying enclave in the distance - it was an entry that got cut from the final version of the published GHotR (all it implies is that the two briefly over-lapped, but Imaskar fell while Netheril was still on the rise).
It is my understanding that Quoya was fertile during the time of Tsharoon. Not only did that nation exist there, but there are indications in the Hordelands material. I even assume a waterway between a lake where the Merket depression now stands leading to Gbor Nor, and another that lead down to a another lake at the site of the Imaskari capital of Inupras (connecting various portions of the empire by sea trade).
I will try to find the names of those Kalmyk/Suren leaders from the novel - I will have to search my own posts. I'm not able to locate which map the imperial dynasties was on, but I'll keep looking for that. It was on a map I owned physically, and the only K-T source I owned that wasn't a pdf was the box set, and yet, I can't find it on those ATM. It could just be I got a badly scanned pdf (it happens - I bought quite a few of them before WotC stopped Paizo from selling them).
While looking for certain dates, I did find THIS - the stuff on the L-List can usually be taken as canon (most of it came from designers back in the day). You may find it of some use. |
| Icelander |
Posted - 04 Mar 2012 : 01:21:03
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Acorn of Wo Mai - George Krashos and I have worked-out how the Copper Demon is actually an entrapped archfiend, in a special armor/construct similar to a Helmed Horror, created by the Raumathari and based on ancient Imaskari designs.
Very good. Sounds similar to how I imagined him. Is there any information about what Tros is and how it became the appelation of our beloved Copper Demon?
Without any further data, the most likely sources of the name are, in rough order of probability in my mind:
a) Most plausible to me is that Tros is the first region/city/other geographic area where the Copper Demon started his conquest in -248 DR. It would thus be within the dominion of the Suren, that is, south of the Kora Shan and most likely in the eastern part of the Endless Wastes, but possibly in the Katakoro Shan somewhere. It is even theoretically possible that it was in west or north-west Shou Lung. The reason this is most plausible to me is that the people (Suren, Shou or Katakorans) who 'named' the fiend were obviously not familiar enough with his origins for them to do anything but call him by his external appearance and it is thus unlikely that they even knew where he came from before he arrived in the lands that would become his dominions.
b) That before the Copper Demon reached the stage of supplanting human rulers, subjugating human populations and exercising authority (almost certainly through the remains of previous political structures) in a manner recognisable to humans, though cruel and predatory, he rampaged and killed indiscriminately, or, at most, functioned as a warlord at the head of human, humanoid and monstrous raiders who did not settle down to govern. Tros would then be the first large settlement destroyed in an orgy of violence that eventually grew into conquest. Tros would thus be somewhere south and east of Raumathari lands, but probably not as far east or south as the lands that he grew to rule.
c) That Tros is the name of the area, mountain, tomb or other landmark where the Copper Demon was trapped and from whence he escaped. This would have been somewhere within the Raumathari sphere of influence, though not necessarily anywhere within their direct dominions. Most likely area seems to be any of the mountain ranges near Winterkeep, i.e. Glittering Spires and others to the north and the Kora Shan to the south and east.
d) That Tros is the Raumathari landmark or city where the archfiend was originally bound into his copper armour. This could be anywhere within Raumathari lands.
e) That Tros is the Raumathari conjuror credited with binding and/or controlling the archfiend.
Etymologically, the word does not sound Shou at all and is not all that like the Tuiganic languages of the modern steppes.* On the other hand, a mostly flat land inhabited by mobile horse-nomads would need something really strange going on if it did not experience periodic waves of conquest backward and forward, which suggests that cultures linguistically and genetically far removed from the modern Tuigan have at various times dominated that same geographic area.
So merely because speakers of languages derived in one way or another from one language of ancient Imaskar now dominate the steppes doesn't mean that peoples who retained their own languages from pre-Imaskari days or just other Imaskari subject peoples whose languages derive from another language spoken in the Empire and whose subsequent evolution was divergent couldn't have done so earlier and left names like 'Tros'.
*In modern terms, it cannot possibly be Sino-Tibetan in origin and the combination of 't' and 'r' into one phoneme is atypical for Proto-Mongolic or any languages hypothetically related to it in an Altaic language family. To us, it must suggest Indo-European or related origin. This suggests Raumviri, Raumathari or any predecessors that might have left descendants still naming places on the steppes ca 1500-2000 years ago.
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
On my own (IMG), I have determined that the Fiend Lord is actually Ma Yuan, killer of the gods (tying it to someone else's homebrew recorded here at the keep - Ma Yuan was very active in the East during the ToT, and I wanted to establish that he had a past in FR).
Why don't I remember anything about Ma Yuan? Ma' Yuan is a province of Shou Lung, but a god-killing demon of that name draws a complete blank from me.
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
I have also connected him to the downfall of Tsharoon (brief entry in the FR timeline in Dragon #228, regarding a fallen kingdom in the once-fertile Quoya).
That's a timeline from ca 220s DR during which Tsharoon still stood, isn't it? Cool!
So, what, Quoya wasn't there? Or was it just smaller? How did it become a desert?
*Well, climatically, it should be a desert anyway without any magical explanation. Maybe Tsaroon was built by using magic to irrigate the desert and when its wizards died by dragonclaw and breath, the Quoya slowly claimed back its lands.
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Scepter of the Sorceror Kings - Netherese history. The word 'Sorcere' comes from the east, and has been linked to the Imaskari as well.
From whence comes that bit of Realms-etymology? I've been wondering what workers of battle spells who did not design or craft magical items were called in Imaskar. Surely there were those, even among that upper echelon of Imaskari who could use magic whose talents lay less in theory and design than in warfare, perhaps with less magical ability, but more tactical acumen, aggression, situational awareness and physical courage.
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Because there is nearly no other instances of the Netheres Archmages being called 'Sorcerers', I have linked this item to the Thaeravel survivors and knowledge gleaned from those people by the Netherese. I have also established (purely homebrew) that there was a little-know (by the Imaskari) Artificer Enclave in the area first settled by Hilathir and his retinue.
Thaeravel falls in -3,392 DR while Hilather is described as a 'young prodigy' when he first emerges in lore at some point after -3,234 DR (the fortress where he entraps Madryoch wasn't founded until then).
While I have no doubt that powerful arcanists engaged in various thaumaturgical shenanigans to extend their god-given three-score and ten years, I still think that it would be strange for a text written by GHotR's omniscient narrator to refer to a 170-year-old man staving off death by the power of his magic as 'young'. So I think that Hilather was probably not born until after the fall of Thaeravel.
On the other hand, the Scepter is clearly based on Imaskari principles and I would even go so far as to say that it is Imaskari in concept and in magical tradition. Unfortunately, the Book of Artifacts has what sounds very much like an episode from Imaskari history happen in Netheril.
And there is no mention of dozens monstrously powerful divine minions attacking Netheril in the history of that civilisation in Arcane Age, an omission that must rate as somewhat momentous. Surely angelic attacks repulsed by god-slaying artifacts in struggles that shake the world itself are worth mentioning?
My prefered fix would be to have Glaeros Lhaerimm and his fellow sorceror-kings be isolated from the rest of Netheril and to be steeped in Imaskari lore and philosophy. Given that tBoA has Lhaerimm suggested as responsible for the spread of the Aunaroch desert, I'd make him and his fellow Sorceror-Kings members of a renegade faction of the Ba'aetith, hidden in their stronghold of antediluvian magic and lore beneath what would become Aunaroch.
This renegade faction would believe that the deities were nothing but beings who had acquired the secrets of the multiverse by their magical prowess and resolved to end their dominion (with the unspoken addendum that the Sorceror-Kings would then be in their place, more or less).
I imagine that by this time, most of these renegades would be latter-day additions, not original Creator Race members. Probably mostly Imaskari, who had been contacted by the few 'surviving' sarrukh and batrachi sorcerors when they had noticed a magic-user of particular power and antipathy to the gods. With the rise of Netheril, some of the Netherse would have been similarily recruited. Glaeros Lhaerimm was the mighiest of these.
As the gods finally brought down the arrogant Sorceror-Kings in their stronghold, they must have done something truly terrible to them. Incidentally, and not at all connected, the name by which the mysterious race of thornback sorcerors below Aunaroch is known today is cognate with that of the crafter of the Scepter. This, of course, means nothing. But it doesn't actually say that the Sorceror-Kings were all human. And the Ba'aetith were a secret society transcending at least three racial emnities between Creator Races. A society which somehow survived the fall of Isstosseffifil to the thornbacks.
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
You can also find a good timeline of the Shou dynasties on the K-T map that came with the boxed set (like I keep saying, lore is often hidden in very strange places). That helped me a lot with my K-T timeline (which includes MANY entries taken directly from the sources, which were never included in any version of the GHotR).
Gah! Maps fall apart or are lost. Who still has maps from the boxed sets?
Which map ought I be digging for, with only a forlorn hope of success? On the back of the largest one? The one of the Imperial city?
And do you have an early version of your timeline including canon only dates?
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
*I just recalled - names for the Suren and Kalmyk leaders and some brief history can be found in the Horselords novel. I have listed these elsewhere on this site - I no longer have those sources. I remember I had to switch-around some of my musings, because one of those leaders is specifically referred to as a 'man', and I have it where the Kalmyk were a Gnoll(-led) people. It still worked for the other group, however, and it was a simple fix (the Kalmyk were lead by the Copper Demon up to a point, and after its defeat, the Suren split-off from the main group; that is the point in which it is very easy to say the human Kalmyk abandoned the demon-lead gnoll Kalymk (or vice-verse... I forget now).
Damn, I got those books from the library and I don't remember this part now. And it's not as if I can run out and borrow them again in the middle of the night.
While I understand that you prefer incorporating 'monstrous' humanoids into the history of the Endless Wastes to a greater extent (a direction which I agree with), I don't think that there are any hints in canon that the Kalmyk and Suren were anything but an amalgamation of steppe tribes like the modern Tuigan.
I'm thinking about the origin of the steppe custom of the Yunichaar, though. Given that the modern Tuigan include gnolls, orcs, hobgoblins and ogre-kin, it makes sense that the Kalmyk and Suren might have had legions of nearly any humanoid race you prefer. And real history certainly offers plenty of examples of enslaved or 'alien' warriors who fight for an elite of another 'race' coming to rule empires in the course of events.
We know that both in -150 DR and 80 DR, the Suren were described as 'horse barbarians' by the Raumviri/Raumathari on one hand and the Shou on the other. No mention is made then of them being in any way non-human or demonic.
Of course, the use of the word 'Kalmyk' and 'Suren' is an obvious echo of the real world Kalmyks* and the Oirat**. If they were to be our analogy, the fall of the Imaskari Empire probably led to an initial era of warring tribes, where the ones with the most Imaskari technology and magic displaced the ones with less.
Probably 'Proto-Indo-European-esque' people like the forerunners of Sossrim, Raumviri and Raumathari ended up with most of the northwest steppes. I imagine that the central steppes and even extending at times far into the Plain of Horses to the Arundi River were dominated by a mixed bag of former Imaskari cavalry of all sorts, speakers of languages derived from theirs just like the modern steppe nomads, but possibly ethnically more 'European' in appearance.
A much larger Solon to the north and whatever was in the former Imaskari heartlands between -2488 DR and ca -1500 DR would have made up a region where the nomads dared not go and for the beginning of the period Anok-Imaskar ruled the Katakoro and down south into the Larang valleys, extending some distance to the east into what would become Shou Lung, but not all the way to coast. After its time, most if that area became survivor states of various kinds.
By the time of the fall, Imaskar had actual cavalry, so it follows that some breeds of horses were by then large enough to supports a full-sized man, saddle and war gear. On the other hand, it is by no means certain that the survivors of the fall would have managed to bring a lot of those horses with them. The breeding stock was probably confined to Imaskari keepers, with the Taangan cavalry riding mares or geldings.
I like to think that the first centuries after the fall saw mostly chariot warfare on the Taangan, before the tribes learned to breed the few larger horses brought with them from Imaskar with the wild steppe pony to produce a marginally bigger steppe horse, large enough for cavalry. The pace of raiding and consequent migrations would thus have been slow at first, but then gradually speeded up until steppe warfare had acquired the very mobile character that it would forever retain. So if one tribe was unable to defeat a constantly raiding neighbour, they'd move away over the years. Slow, at first, but faster later.
The 'Tuiganic' peoples, most likely not as favoured under the Imaskari as other groups closer to the ruling wizards in blood and appearance, would have been at a disadvantage in tribal conflicts in the centuries after the fall, lacking the wealth of metal and magic that more trusted peoples were equipped with in their military service for the Empire. This would have caused their retreat over time, generally to the east from whence they originally came. Of course, this is a broad generalisation. A lot of genetically Tuiganic peoples instead joined with the 'Turkic-esque' Taangan tribes, starting (or continuing) the ethnic admixtures that today characterises the steppes.
The Kalmyk would be tribes who regarded themselves as primarily 'Tuiganic', but who remained on the steppes to the west of the Arundi River, protected in part by the Hagga Shan (which would moderate the weather there, making it more survivable than that of the oppen steppes leading up to it). The rise of the Kalmyks would then be the reason for the modern domination of 'Tuiganic' peoples on the steppes.
Damn, my digression grew so long I can hardly remember what it was about when I started. Yes, hobgoblins and gnolls and whatnot. As I said, I'd connect such races with the Kalmyk and Suren as legions of increasingly powerful and politically significant Yunichaar warrior-slaves who then might have founded their own kingdoms as the confederations of horselords fell apart.
*Which means 'those who remained'.
**Meaning 'those in the east', so at least there was a change of direction between real world and Realms. |
| Lord Karsus |
Posted - 02 Mar 2012 : 21:08:13
-Eh, yes and no. It's hard to alter things, though, when you can't even find information that you might eventually change to to begin with... |
| Markustay |
Posted - 02 Mar 2012 : 19:24:56
Bad for the FR historian/fan/buff, but great for the DM/designer who does need to 'fudge things'.
In a setting where people can literally 'turn back time', teleport, take the form of others, etc, etc... is it that hard to find ways around all the gaffs? We even have at least two canon instances where extremely powerful magic made entire portions of 'history' get obliterated (forgotten about by witnesses, AND even expunged from physical records!)
And thats only in the figurative sense; we have another one - The Sundering - where millenia literally got 'erased' and re-written.
This is why I maintain FR is THE most fixable setting ever created - the tools are built right into the lore. |
| Lord Karsus |
Posted - 02 Mar 2012 : 19:08:13
-The way Kara-Tur: The Eastern Realms was written makes me want to punch people. I don't particularly like that it was written from a first-person point of view, as that can make dating things and establishing the historicity of events problematic, but that is what it is. The damn book can't even present multiple chapters in the same manner- use the same damn subheadings and subchapters for every nation. Don't give us four pages about culture in Shou Lung, and then three paragraphs about culture in Wa.
-And, of course, the information about religions.  |
| Markustay |
Posted - 02 Mar 2012 : 18:42:54
2e Book of Artifacts.
Acorn of Wo Mai - George Krashos and I have worked-out how the Copper Demon is actually an entrapped archfiend, in a special armor/construct similar to a Helmed Horror, created by the Raumathari and based on ancient Imaskari designs. On my own (IMG), I have determined that the Fiend Lord is actually Ma Yuan, killer of the gods (tying it to someone else's homebrew recorded here at the keep - Ma Yuan was very active in the East during the ToT, and I wanted to establish that he had a past in FR). I have also connected him to the downfall of Tsharoon (brief entry in the FR timeline in Dragon #228, regarding a fallen kingdom in the once-fertile Quoya).
All-Knowing Eye of Yasmin Sira - Zakharan history
Blackjammer's Cutlass is tied to the Tears of Selune, but is technically a Realmspace/SJ artifact, and contains no real history.
Coin of Jisan - Zakharan History
Death Rock - although not mentioned in its entry, it is referenced in the K-T material, so it is from the Realms. No useful history, though.
Hammer of Gesen - directly linked to the Hordelands and the Great Khans.
Herald of Mei Lung - This tome is referenced in the K-T/Tabot material. Mei Lung is very important to the history of K-T.
Iron Bow of Gesen - directly linked to the Hordelands and the Great Khans.
Ivory Chain of Pao - K-T history, revolving around the Black Leopard Cult.
Monocle of Bagthalos - Interesting FR history (Helm) in the Lands of Intrigue but nothing Realms-shaking, and nothing pertinent to your avenues of interest.
Regalia of Might - technically Planescape/Great Wheel, but a very interesting read about the Godswar, which ties into FR indirectly (and perhaps directly, given some of the 4e material).
Scepter of the Sorceror Kings - Netherese history. The word 'Sorcere' comes from the east, and has been linked to the Imaskari as well. Because there is nearly no other instances of the Netheres Archmages being called 'Sorcerers', I have linked this item to the Thaeravel survivors and knowledge gleaned from those people by the Netherese. I have also established (purely homebrew) that there was a little-know (by the Imaskari) Artificer Enclave in the area first settled by Hilathir and his retinue. A little convoluted, but it establishes and early Imaskari presence in the Stonelands/Goblin Marches region, which fixes a few other continuity glitches (for instance, the name 'Sorcerer Kings' was used in the Land of Alabaster Towers, and is a hold-over from Imaskari culture).
Seal of Jafar A-Samal - Zakharan history, and fairly important to the history of Al-Qadim.
Throne of the Gods - like the Regalia of Might (above), it is more of a Planescape entry, but is therefor indirectly linked to the Realms (you'll note a lot of my cosmological musing are based upon the wider D&D universe, and not just FR).
The 4e source Open Grave has some quasi-canon/Apocryphal about Tan Chin - you can tell its about him and Ra-Khati, but the names have been slightly altered to make it more generic/core. See the Hantumah info starting on pg.18.
Brian James, the author of that bit, says it was written that way so as to enable us to ignore it if we wish to. I have included a version of it in my own 'History of the Taan', but I spun it a bit differently because he seems to have completely left-out Hubadai's involvement with Princess Bhrokiti (an interesting storyline that was unfortunately never expounded upon in future lore). I didn't ignore Brian's contribution, just used it as a very bare-bones base for my own stuff (its easy enough to fudge things in a magical world, especially if you used the 'uncertain 3rd person' approach).
I could have sworn there was one more* - I may have been thinking about my own connections between Sahu and the Utter East (Sahu being canon from tCboN, but the Utter East being a hodgepodge of very disconnected lore from several sources, some quasi-canonical).
You can also find a good timeline of the Shou dynasties on the K-T map that came with the boxed set (like I keep saying, lore is often hidden in very strange places). That helped me a lot with my K-T timeline (which includes MANY entries taken directly from the sources, which were never included in any version of the GHotR).
K-T history often disagrees with itself - each section is written as if it is from that region, which means different regions would spin events differently (especially if they were at war). This is easily rectified by the wonderful 'inaccurate history' McGuffin built into the setting (Shou emperors modifying the official histories to make Shou-Lung and themselves look better).
*I just recalled - names for the Suren and Kalmyk leaders and some brief history can be found in the Horselords novel. I have listed these elsewhere on this site - I no longer have those sources. I remember I had to switch-around some of my musings, because one of those leaders is specifically referred to as a 'man', and I have it where the Kalmyk were a Gnoll(-led) people. It still worked for the other group, however, and it was a simple fix (the Kalmyk were lead by the Copper Demon up to a point, and after its defeat, the Suren split-off from the main group; that is the point in which it is very easy to say the human Kalmyk abandoned the demon-lead gnoll Kalymk (or vice-verse... I forget now). |
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