| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Dennis |
Posted - 26 Feb 2012 : 17:58:38
Sleyvas's post about Azuth and Velsharoon in Wooly's thread had me thinking... To de-empower Mystra, why not have a deity for every school of magic, allowing them to access specific parts of the Weave? Mystra would be the Goddess of Abjuration. |
| 30 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| Dennis |
Posted - 31 May 2012 : 08:05:40
quote:
Originally posted by Bakra
quote:
Originally posted by Marc
There's too few people who worship magic to have so many magic gods, that way the number of nature and agriculture gods could be 4054. Their DvR would not go higher than 1.
I disagree because we can never really have the hard numbers.
True. In addition, worshipers of magic do not come from the human population only. Not to mention some of them worship their patrons in secret, for many reasons. For one, because their faith is considered a taboo in the society where they live in. |
| Lord Karsus |
Posted - 06 Mar 2012 : 20:01:50
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
As for the gods - in the east (K-T), they have 'gods' (Kami) for each individual crop, with some being quite powerful (like the the five grain gods). They also have sprits attached to lakes, rivers, mountains, etc...
-Every grain of rice is supposed to have a Kami dancing on it. Poetic language, of course, but... |
| Markustay |
Posted - 06 Mar 2012 : 16:00:42
I really do feel FR was the 2e core world as well - it may have not been that way at the get-go, but when they saw how popular it was getting they ran with it.
Just IMO is all.
As for the gods - in the east (K-T), they have 'gods' (Kami) for each individual crop, with some being quite powerful (like the the five grain gods). They also have sprits attached to lakes, rivers, mountains, etc...
Call them archfey, or elemental spirits, Kami, Exarchs... whatever... but there are huge amounts of gods on Toril, no matter how you slice it. Maybe all of them are only demi-powers, which is why I think individual demigods for each school/source of magic could work, but they'd all be 'helpers' for a higher power. In that way, the lack of worshipers really shouldn't matter (since all would be contributing to a greater whole).
Thats why I am a big fan of FR's mini-pantheons (we really need a special name for these). Like-minded deities that work together, and are usually 'ruled' by a higher power. There are so many we never really hear about (like all those 'Saints' down in the Lands of Intrigue). The system is reminiscent of the Celestial Bureaucracy, which is a pretty good model for D&D cosmology because it is so well-structured (with mechanics built-in). High Gods rule over Greater Gods, who in-turn rule over Intermediate powers, who in-turn organize the lesser powers, who in-turn manage the Exarchs (demi-powers, Saints, Chosen, whatever).
There would be a lot of exceptions of course (like Mystra dealing directly with her Chosen), but for the most part there is a 'pecking-order'. This is also why greater gods don't just annihilate lesser gods they don't like - because each has his/her own group they belong to.
I think I just applied a 'gang' mentality to the gods. 
Tempus has a 'Posse'... LMAO.... |
| Bakra |
Posted - 06 Mar 2012 : 15:38:58
quote:
Originally posted by Marc
There's too few people who worship magic to have so many magic gods, that way the number of nature and agriculture gods could be 4054. Their DvR would not go higher than 1.
I disagree because we can never really have the hard numbers. and there were safe guards in the system. If some deities shared the same portfolio then only one could rise higher than demigod. I'm sure I just muddled things for ya. |
| Bakra |
Posted - 06 Mar 2012 : 15:34:16
I read the forward by Jeff Grubb in the FR Adventures last night. The concept of FR being the core world for 2nd edition gets reinforced in his spiel. But as someone pointed out to me, Dragon Magazine was an optional resource for players and Dungeonmasters during the 1990’s. So even though there was Mythrien Sarath, the god of abjuration and Mythals, he was an optional deity. The real question is if these deities were something totally made up by the author to fit into FR setting (seems that way to me) or if he was given a list from Ed then instructed to flesh them out by the Dragon magazine editor. Who wants to ask Ed? |
| Marc |
Posted - 06 Mar 2012 : 06:06:00
There's too few people who worship magic to have so many magic gods, that way the number of nature and agriculture gods could be 4054. Their DvR would not go higher than 1. |
| Dennis |
Posted - 06 Mar 2012 : 02:57:29
There's a reason why I never mentioned elves in my OP and why I never included any elven deities in my suggestions... |
| Markustay |
Posted - 06 Mar 2012 : 02:13:16
I don't think the concept of a 'core setting' came about until 3e (where they made Greyhawk core... and then completely ignored it).
We had Mystara (D&D) and Greyahwk (AD&D) in 1e, and in 2e we had those and Krynn/DL and FR, as well a few others... but I don't rally recall this whole 'core' argument becoming what it was until 3e. It went from something rather minor, to this big hulabaloo in 3e... it was kinda weird. I mean, the concept of 'core material' was always there, but it was never any kind of issue, in regards to the individual settings.
I have to wonder if the shear preponderance of mechanics for 3e forced this to become an issue. 
Strangely, I notice the FR material far more in 2e stuff then GH material. It could just be because thats when FR was being 'forced' upon me, and I resented it (kinda like how I over-notice the term spellplague in every novel - its like nails across a blackboard to me). So in other words, its probably just my own perception of things. For awhile, I was jealous FR was getting so much damn attention.
WE had Drow first, dammit! (and Shades!)
People often forget so much came from Mystara and Greyhawk - they should get more respect (Mystara had Avariel and Aranea first).
Heh... funny thought... maybe Realmspace's first 'deity of magic' was named Mystara. That could be the world that was 'meant to be', before it got sundered (since all worlds are but echoes of each other). |
| The Sage |
Posted - 06 Mar 2012 : 00:52:08
quote:
Originally posted by Bakra
Is it too late to add a "Good Grief, Charlie Brown Razz."
http://forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=12080
Yeah, I should've provided a link to that scroll earlier.
Anyway, that clears up what I've been rambling about here.  |
| The Sage |
Posted - 06 Mar 2012 : 00:51:33
quote:
Originally posted by Bakra
Anyhow our gaming group considered the Dragon articles from that period to be Realms related. Unless they specifically stated otherwise. e.g. "On the World of Athas".
I should've been a little clearer, before.
So long as they're not clearly identified as belonging to a particular setting or world published by TSR, then you're free to incorporate them however you wish.
But as the article itself stands, it's core D&D. And these deities have no real acknowledgement in the existing Realmslore of the time. |
| Bakra |
Posted - 05 Mar 2012 : 21:49:45
Typo or not it was something we accepted as fact in our little gaming group until 3e.
I didn't mean to side track this topic. So, I think deities of magic shouldn't be Human-centric. Some human deities could and should be on the suggested list. But other racial deities have been around a lot longer and should be on the list too... I for one wouldn't mind seeing Lurue as the goddess of Wild(Chaotic) Magic. And maybe one or two of the elven gods from the Dragon article on there too.
|
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 05 Mar 2012 : 20:12:05
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
quote:
Originally posted by Bakra
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
quote:
Originally posted by Bakra
Wasn't there a set of Elven Deities that covered all of the sub-schools of magic?
Outside of core articles in DRAGON which don't have specific application in Realms canon, no.
My logic and memory may be flawed. The Realms were the core setting for 2nd Edition or this could be my Ego saying it was the core setting. Anyhow our gaming group considered the Dragon articles from that period to be Realms related. Unless they specifically stated otherwise. e.g. "On the World of Athas".
Pg. 192 of the K-T box -
"The FORGOTTEN REALMS setting is the AD&D® campaign world, so that player characters who are not strictly AD&D® game format (such as a dwarvish cleric/thief/illusionist/paladin with a 24 natural strength) cannot enter the Realms without modification to fit the AD&D® game rules."
The use of the word "the" rather then "a" is very telling - it appears you are correct and FR was indeed THE 2e AD&D (core) setting. Most of the core books written during that era (CBoN is a great example) reference Realms material.
I think that was a typo. I had a metric buttload of 2E material, and I don't recall anything saying that there was any specific core setting.
|
| Lord Karsus |
Posted - 05 Mar 2012 : 19:39:29
quote:
Originally posted by Bakra
My logic and memory may be flawed. The Realms were the core setting for 2nd Edition or this could be my Ego saying it was the core setting. Anyhow our gaming group considered the Dragon articles from that period to be Realms related. Unless they specifically stated otherwise. e.g. "On the World of Athas".
-Greyhawk.
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
The use of the word "the" rather then "a" is very telling - it appears you are correct and FR was indeed THE 2e AD&D (core) setting. Most of the core books written during that era (CBoN is a great example) reference Realms material.
-An even greater amount reference Greyhawk- especially DRAGON Magazine articles. |
| Markustay |
Posted - 05 Mar 2012 : 16:29:41
quote:
Originally posted by Bakra
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
quote:
Originally posted by Bakra
Wasn't there a set of Elven Deities that covered all of the sub-schools of magic?
Outside of core articles in DRAGON which don't have specific application in Realms canon, no.
My logic and memory may be flawed. The Realms were the core setting for 2nd Edition or this could be my Ego saying it was the core setting. Anyhow our gaming group considered the Dragon articles from that period to be Realms related. Unless they specifically stated otherwise. e.g. "On the World of Athas".
Pg. 192 of the K-T box -
"The FORGOTTEN REALMS setting is the AD&D® campaign world, so that player characters who are not strictly AD&D® game format (such as a dwarvish cleric/thief/illusionist/paladin with a 24 natural strength) cannot enter the Realms without modification to fit the AD&D® game rules."
The use of the word "the" rather then "a" is very telling - it appears you are correct and FR was indeed THE 2e AD&D (core) setting. Most of the core books written during that era (CBoN is a great example) reference Realms material.
I think that 'modern' designers try to divorce FR as much as possible from everything written in the past in Dragon, because that is a weird can-O-worms right there (seriously - who owns the rights to all that crap? Both companies?) |
| Bakra |
Posted - 05 Mar 2012 : 16:15:55
Is it too late to add a "Good Grief, Charlie Brown Razz."
http://forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=12080
|
| Markustay |
Posted - 05 Mar 2012 : 16:13:18
Multiple deities for the same things works in nearly every other setting (including our RW mythology), but not so much in FR.
Part of the problem with FR's cosmology is the rules in which the gods must work under - they are not logical for a fantasy setting (one god per portfolio), and the rule is constantly broken anyway (with the world divided into ZoCs for different pantheons).
This is why I am for a reduction in gods through merging, but I ONLY feel this way about FR - no other world. Other worlds don't have this silly problem.
Think about the anomaly - the RPG setting with THE most official deities is the setting that limits how many gods can have a portfolio. Its counter-intuitive.
If they/we want them to stop the downsizing, then they need to get rid of this awful bit of post-ToT lore and reset the setting back to the structure it followed in the OGB. |
| Bakra |
Posted - 05 Mar 2012 : 16:02:48
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
quote:
Originally posted by Bakra
Wasn't there a set of Elven Deities that covered all of the sub-schools of magic?
Outside of core articles in DRAGON which don't have specific application in Realms canon, no.
My logic and memory may be flawed. The Realms were the core setting for 2nd Edition or this could be my Ego saying it was the core setting. Anyhow our gaming group considered the Dragon articles from that period to be Realms related. Unless they specifically stated otherwise. e.g. "On the World of Athas".
And the article I was thinking of was Gods of Magic, "Magic of the Seldarine" by Chris Perry Dragon 251. (Courtesy of the Dragon Dex website underneath Forgotten Realms Index)
|
| The Sage |
Posted - 05 Mar 2012 : 06:03:39
quote:
Originally posted by Bakra
Wasn't there a set of Elven Deities that covered all of the sub-schools of magic?
Outside of core articles in DRAGON which don't have specific application in Realms canon, no. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 04 Mar 2012 : 17:45:41
quote:
Originally posted by Bakra
Wasn't there a set of Elven Deities that covered all of the sub-schools of magic?
Not in FR canon. |
| Dennis |
Posted - 04 Mar 2012 : 17:38:20
quote:
Originally posted by Bakra
Wasn't there a set of Elven Deities that covered all of the sub-schools of magic?
Interesting. Never heard of that before.
Given my feelings towards FR elves, needless to say, my knowledge of them and their deities are very limited. So fellow scribes, can anyone answer this question? |
| Bakra |
Posted - 04 Mar 2012 : 15:47:44
quote:
Originally posted by Jakk
Divination (magical and otherwise): Savras
Necromancy and undead (esp. spellcasting undead): Velsharoon
Illusion and other magical deception: Leira
Transmutation: Azuth (it's the school with the broadest range of effects, and (apart from evocation and necromancy) the one most typically associated with wizards in the minds of the common folk)... OR (if we leave Azuth dead or (preferably) keep him as the god of wizards and other arcane spellcasters) Syluné (the latter choice can be easily written into the storyline of the Cormyr-Shadowdale-Anauroch adventure trilogy, or at least the groundwork for it).
Evocation: I have only two real candidates here: My first choice is to arrange for Khelben to ascend from Arvandor to demipower status for this promotion. The Simbul is another possible candidate, but she's still alive, and seems likely to remain so, and I'd rather not deify living iconic Realms NPCs, simply because there are so few of them now.
Abjuration: I'd like to see this one go to Alustriel, depending on her canonical status at the end of the 4e era. Protection and defence were her priorities, if not her specialization, as a wizard and as a leader and ruler.
Enchantment: We could give this one to Sune, but I like Laeral for this one, again depending on her canonical status (it "gets rid of" another Chosen, but keeps her a part of the setting, just as with Alustriel and Syluné). She's an appropriate choice because she's intimately familiar with such effects after being under the spell of the crown of horns for so long.
Conjuration: I think we could probably go with Finder Wyvernspur for this one... although Eldrus Wands would be a good choice as well, but I'm not sure if it makes any difference that he's been dead since 516 DR.
Those are the primary eight schools; if you really want exarchs/demipowers for other "schools", there are certainly a few candidates available.
Wasn't there a set of Elven Deities that covered all of the sub-schools of magic? |
| Jakk |
Posted - 03 Mar 2012 : 23:35:23
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
quote:
Originally posted by Jakk
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
Good point. Deities of magic should be neutral, either chaotic or lawful. Mystra is neutral, but what most mortals witness of her doings are leaning towards good.
There is an exception, as you'll probably notice from my post following yours, Dennis: Necromancy. By and large, necromancy is pretty much as evil as arcane magic intrinsically gets... hence Velsharoon and those who have been tossed around as successors... Szass Tam, Myrkul, Bhaal, etc... actually, Myrkul as the Realms deity of necromancy and the undead would be very cool... and if assassins are coming back in 5e, we'll have room for Bhaal to return as well... I love everything about these ideas. 
Necromancy does not necessarily have to be evil, nor does its deity. There are good liches (archliches and baelnorns), and good ghosts (Mirror). Undeath is only the means, not the end. An undead being can be good or evil, depending on many things---the foremost of which is the life he led before he followed the path to undeath. Their past usually defines their present.
Good examples, Dennis, but I'll venture to say that they're the exception, not the rule. Still, you present a solid enough argument that necromancy isn't intrinsically evil - one exception would have done, really; I try to apply the scientific method even where science is not involved, and it works rather well in this case. |
| Dennis |
Posted - 03 Mar 2012 : 22:45:18
quote:
Originally posted by Jakk
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
Good point. Deities of magic should be neutral, either chaotic or lawful. Mystra is neutral, but what most mortals witness of her doings are leaning towards good.
There is an exception, as you'll probably notice from my post following yours, Dennis: Necromancy. By and large, necromancy is pretty much as evil as arcane magic intrinsically gets... hence Velsharoon and those who have been tossed around as successors... Szass Tam, Myrkul, Bhaal, etc... actually, Myrkul as the Realms deity of necromancy and the undead would be very cool... and if assassins are coming back in 5e, we'll have room for Bhaal to return as well... I love everything about these ideas.
Necromancy does not necessarily have to be evil, nor does its deity. There are good liches (archliches and baelnorns), and good ghosts (Mirror). Undeath is only the means, not the end. An undead being can be good or evil, depending on many things---the foremost of which is the life he led before he followed the path to undeath. Their past usually defines their present. |
| Jakk |
Posted - 03 Mar 2012 : 21:40:15
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
Good point. Deities of magic should be neutral, either chaotic or lawful. Mystra is neutral, but what most mortals witness of her doings are leaning towards good.
There is an exception, as you'll probably notice from my post following yours, Dennis: Necromancy. By and large, necromancy is pretty much as evil as arcane magic intrinsically gets... hence Velsharoon and those who have been tossed around as successors... Szass Tam, Myrkul, Bhaal, etc... actually, Myrkul as the Realms deity of necromancy and the undead would be very cool... and if assassins are coming back in 5e, we'll have room for Bhaal to return as well... I love everything about these ideas. |
| Jakk |
Posted - 03 Mar 2012 : 21:35:45
Divination (magical and otherwise): Savras
Necromancy and undead (esp. spellcasting undead): Velsharoon
Illusion and other magical deception: Leira
Transmutation: Azuth (it's the school with the broadest range of effects, and (apart from evocation and necromancy) the one most typically associated with wizards in the minds of the common folk)... OR (if we leave Azuth dead or (preferably) keep him as the god of wizards and other arcane spellcasters) Syluné (the latter choice can be easily written into the storyline of the Cormyr-Shadowdale-Anauroch adventure trilogy, or at least the groundwork for it).
Evocation: I have only two real candidates here: My first choice is to arrange for Khelben to ascend from Arvandor to demipower status for this promotion. The Simbul is another possible candidate, but she's still alive, and seems likely to remain so, and I'd rather not deify living iconic Realms NPCs, simply because there are so few of them now.
Abjuration: I'd like to see this one go to Alustriel, depending on her canonical status at the end of the 4e era. Protection and defence were her priorities, if not her specialization, as a wizard and as a leader and ruler.
Enchantment: We could give this one to Sune, but I like Laeral for this one, again depending on her canonical status (it "gets rid of" another Chosen, but keeps her a part of the setting, just as with Alustriel and Syluné). She's an appropriate choice because she's intimately familiar with such effects after being under the spell of the crown of horns for so long.
Conjuration: I think we could probably go with Finder Wyvernspur for this one... although Eldrus Wands would be a good choice as well, but I'm not sure if it makes any difference that he's been dead since 516 DR.
Those are the primary eight schools; if you really want exarchs/demipowers for other "schools", there are certainly a few candidates available.
|
| Dennis |
Posted - 03 Mar 2012 : 21:04:52
Good point. Deities of magic should be neutral, either chaotic or lawful. Mystra is neutral, but what most mortals witness of her doings are leaning towards good. |
| Jakk |
Posted - 03 Mar 2012 : 20:45:23
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
How about a deity who has undergone several transformations (except Mystra)? Maybe one of the lesser deities?
Or would Lloth be right for the job? Ambitious as she is, though, I'm not sure she'd settle for only that.
Actually, Transmutation is a significant school... probably the largest (pre-4e, anyway), so I'd think Lolth would be a good choice. Another candidate would be Bane... but in both cases we're talking about an evil deity, and I really think we need morally neutral deities of arcane magic, regardless of their number. Arcane magic is inherently neither good nor evil; it's the purpose to which it is put that determines its morality, and that's up to the individual casters, not the gods. |
| Dennis |
Posted - 28 Feb 2012 : 01:41:26
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
Transmutation is a very specific and particular school of magic. I can't see just any willy-nilly upstart deity being responsible for it.
Fair enough. I was actually running out of candidates, so I chose the easiest alternative. Which, as you implied (and I agree), does not sound appropriate.
Actually, thinking on transmutation and the transformation of "Art"... maybe Finder would be a possible option.
How about a deity who has undergone several transformations (except Mystra)? Maybe one of the lesser deities?
Or would Lloth be right for the job? Ambitious as she is, though, I'm not sure she'd settle for only that. |
| The Sage |
Posted - 28 Feb 2012 : 01:39:31
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
Transmutation is a very specific and particular school of magic. I can't see just any willy-nilly upstart deity being responsible for it.
Fair enough. I was actually running out of candidates, so I chose the easiest alternative. Which, as you implied (and I agree), does not sound appropriate.
Actually, thinking on the nature of transmutation magicks and the transformation of "Art" [emphasis mine, though it reflects a subtle tweak I made to the follow deity's portfolio]... maybe Finder would be a possible option. |
| Dennis |
Posted - 28 Feb 2012 : 00:49:45
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
Transmutation is a very specific and particular school of magic. I can't see just any willy-nilly upstart deity being responsible for it.
Fair enough. I was actually running out of candidates, so I chose the easiest alternative. Which, as you implied (and I agree), does not sound appropriate. |
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