| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Dennis |
Posted - 26 Feb 2012 : 01:21:57
Would the archdevils of the Nine Hells benefit from having Lorekeepers among their subjects? If yes, how?
If you’re curious why I’m asking this, well… In Feist’s novels, there are demons called Archivists, who were under the leadership of the Demon King Dahun. They took care of all information/lore pertaining to their kingdom and their kind. Their existence was largely due to Dahun’s desire to establish some sort of ‘order’ in his domain, and ultimately, their survival. |
| 30 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| Dennis |
Posted - 31 May 2012 : 08:19:23
A council is fine. But for their own relative safety and those under their wing---the librarians---they should keep their identities a secret. |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 03 Mar 2012 : 14:57:09
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
quote:
Originally posted by Lord Karsus
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
Indeed. I must add that the Lorekeepers are personally branded by the Archdevils, and therefore enjoy some certain level of personal protection.
-At the same time, I would imagine that whatever Archdevil(s) might be keeping secret such knowledge would not trust the people who are keeping it all safe and secure. Whatever protections keeping the knowledge safe probably also doubles as a fail-safe against the being(s) tasked with guarding it all- since they'd invariably be plotting to use it somehow to overthrow their superior and take his/her place.
Not when an Archdevil mind-linked all his Lorekeepers, enabling him to monitor their thoughts, even the repressed ones.
Here's one of the few spots where I'll differ, but only in the level of involvement. In a lawful good library, with a lawful good person overseeing it... I see this as possible. In a lawful evil society though, I see this kind of library springing up but them not submitting to too much "governmental" control in one hand. There might be controls in place, but it would be something again to a large body of control (i.e. a council or senate). I know this doesn't fit with the tyrannical view of the Hells and sounds a bit more chaotic, but even devil's will want some freedom from their masters (after all, they are self centered i.e. evil). Now, I could see that if they were suspected of something the "council" might use their collective power to peer in on a given librarian. Also, I could see this "council" putting in means to watch the librarians without the librarians knowing it. Basically, something akin to a "information police" group being setup to watch the activities of the various groups in the library, as well as possibly an "information administration" group being setup to control the access granted to the librarians. Finally, there may also be another group formed that's responsible for "data migration"... i.e. moving and tracking data around so that its not necessarily always in the same place and/or preserving data by recopying it (but not actually having access to a means of unlocking the data itself). Naturally, a commodity in trade that might spring up on the "black market" of hell might even become passwords/puzzles that are periodically changed/moved by unscrupulous members within these various organizations. |
| Dennis |
Posted - 03 Mar 2012 : 05:53:46
No Archdevil would be able to keep his throne for long if he does not know to keep a step ahead of everyone else. |
| Lord Karsus |
Posted - 03 Mar 2012 : 05:08:45
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
I don't mean that any thoughts of betrayal by the Lorekeepers would instantly make the Archdevil eliminate them. It's the Nine Hells. Everyone betrays each other. But mind-linking himself with his inferiors could give him a relative assurance that he stays one step ahead of them...
Or heck, he could simply bind them in a way that should they divulge lore to anyone without his consent, or outside the rules he himself set, and should they try to "hurt" him, they'd perish instantly.
-I would hope that he/she would be able to stay one step ahead of them regardless. If he/she couldn't, they'd 'deserving' oust him/her. Very social Darwinian. |
| Dennis |
Posted - 03 Mar 2012 : 02:10:14
I don't mean that any thoughts of betrayal by the Lorekeepers would instantly make the Archdevil eliminate them. It's the Nine Hells. Everyone betrays each other. But mind-linking himself with his inferiors could give him a relative assurance that he stays one step ahead of them...
Or heck, he could simply bind them in a way that should they divulge lore to anyone without his consent, or outside the rules he himself set, and should they try to "hurt" him, they'd perish instantly. |
| Lord Karsus |
Posted - 03 Mar 2012 : 01:10:14
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
Not when an Archdevil mind-linked all his Lorekeepers, enabling him to monitor their thoughts, even the repressed ones.
-Knowing that someone is disloyal and would double-cross you and stab you in the back as soon as they could get away with it wouldn't necessarily change such a scenario. Really, in the Nine Hells and the Abyss, one doesn't need to read an inferior's mind to know that, if they could, they'd depose of you and take your place if they could. |
| Dennis |
Posted - 03 Mar 2012 : 00:44:41
quote:
Originally posted by Lord Karsus
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
Indeed. I must add that the Lorekeepers are personally branded by the Archdevils, and therefore enjoy some certain level of personal protection.
-At the same time, I would imagine that whatever Archdevil(s) might be keeping secret such knowledge would not trust the people who are keeping it all safe and secure. Whatever protections keeping the knowledge safe probably also doubles as a fail-safe against the being(s) tasked with guarding it all- since they'd invariably be plotting to use it somehow to overthrow their superior and take his/her place.
Not when an Archdevil mind-linked all his Lorekeepers, enabling him to monitor their thoughts, even the repressed ones. |
| Lord Karsus |
Posted - 28 Feb 2012 : 19:45:36
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
Indeed. I must add that the Lorekeepers are personally branded by the Archdevils, and therefore enjoy some certain level of personal protection.
-At the same time, I would imagine that whatever Archdevil(s) might be keeping secret such knowledge would not trust the people who are keeping it all safe and secure. Whatever protections keeping the knowledge safe probably also doubles as a fail-safe against the being(s) tasked with guarding it all- since they'd invariably be plotting to use it somehow to overthrow their superior and take his/her place.
-Don't know what the reference is from, but kind of like the jail being run by the warden, who he himself is a criminal and condemned. |
| Dennis |
Posted - 28 Feb 2012 : 00:55:07
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
It's incredibly difficult to maintain a 'neutral zone' in the Nine Hells.
I was picturing it on the border, and also over the border - in other words, like a city, unto itself... a MASSIVE one. Basically, most of it would be in the Hells (and maybe on more then one level), but a small portion of it would be over the border in Gehenna. Thats where the Yugolth 'Gatekeepers' would screen applicants (supplicants?)
And they probably charge 'soul stuff' for admission (and after taking their 'cut', they pass the rest onto the devils inside).
And while trying to picture how that would work, I found a great illustration of the planes - its not what I was looking for, but it was so cool I had to share it!
Perhaps Asmodeus would assign the Gatekeepers, so that anyone who dare 'harm' them, the other Archdevils included, or violate the rules in acquiring certain lore, would answer directly to him. |
| The Sage |
Posted - 27 Feb 2012 : 05:07:51
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
It could have been in the book SECRETS - I really liked that tome. Sadly, no way of checking now. 
You've mentioned this book more than once... Who published it?
AEG
A lot of it was very good, and some of it was like "Huh?", but even the stuff that was just plain weird still gave you lots of juicy stuff to use and think about. I don't think there was single part of that book I didn't use somehow in my own stuff (some with lots of tweaking, but most, not so much). It's presented as a book of books, similar in how PftM was presented, but with far fewer 'contributory tomes', and each more detailed. And everything is presented in such a manner where it may or may not be true - that 'inaccurate third person' that we all loved in older FR sources. In fact, IIRC correctly, at least one 'author' was said to be insane. I think the presentation was one of my favorite things about the book.
For instance, one writer claims that dwarves don't have females - that they are born from the stone itself. When I first read that I was like "I'll never use that", but then when I was later working on my over-cosmology, I thought that would be perfect for the first dwarves; in other words, the females came later. So even something I thought I 100% wouldn't use proved useful in some way at a later time.
Plus, its just a really fun read - its like viewing ancient scrolls of forbidden knowledge. In fact, I'd highly recommend all of the AEG books - they are filled with tons of goodies for DMs to cherry-pick from.
Hmmm. I've always been intrigued by most of the stuff published by AEG.
Can you recommend any other AEG tomes that might interest Realms-goers, Markus?
|
| Jeremy Grenemyer |
Posted - 27 Feb 2012 : 04:29:08
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
And they probably charge 'soul stuff' for admission (and after taking their 'cut', they pass the rest onto the devils inside).
That gives me the idea for an encounter where the PCs are in a large library in the Realms and come upon an NPC they've been chasing, who's dead on the floor in front of a wall with a large, square opening in it that is framed in glowing hot iron.
Beyond the opening are rows and rows of wrought iron shelves, filled with scrolls that appear to be made from skin. The floor is black obsidian, the air ripples with heat and the smell of brimstone wafts into the much cooler chamber where the PCs are searching the body of the NPC.
He's opened a gate to the Library of the Nine Hells, but it cost him more than the spell scroll he used to activate the gate wall promised.
The hellish keepers of the library gather on the other side and make ready to raid this latest mortal's library, with the PCs left to stand in the way.
Awesome. I like this thread. |
| Markustay |
Posted - 27 Feb 2012 : 04:17:27
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
It's incredibly difficult to maintain a 'neutral zone' in the Nine Hells.
I was picturing it on the border, and also over the border - in other words, like a city, unto itself... a MASSIVE one. Basically, most of it would be in the Hells (and maybe on more then one level), but a small portion of it would be over the border in Gehenna. Thats where the Yugolth 'Gatekeepers' would screen applicants (supplicants?)
And they probably charge 'soul stuff' for admission (and after taking their 'cut', they pass the rest onto the devils inside).
And while trying to picture how that would work, I found a great illustration of the planes - its not what I was looking for, but it was so cool I had to share it! |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 27 Feb 2012 : 04:15:51
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
It could have been in the book SECRETS - I really liked that tome. Sadly, no way of checking now.
You've mentioned this book more than once... Who published it?
AEG
A lot of it was very good, and some of it was like "Huh?", but even the stuff that was just plain weird still gave you lots of juicy stuff to use and think about. I don't think there was single part of that book I didn't use somehow in my own stuff (some with lots of tweaking, but most, not so much). It's presented as a book of books, similar in how PftM was presented, but with far fewer 'contributory tomes', and each more detailed. And everything is presented in such a manner where it may or may not be true - that 'inaccurate third person' that we all loved in older FR sources. In fact, IIRC correctly, at least one 'author' was said to be insane. I think the presentation was one of my favorite things about the book.
For instance, one writer claims that dwarves don't have females - that they are born from the stone itself. When I first read that I was like "I'll never use that", buty then when I was later working on my over-cosmology, I thought that would e perfect for the first dwarves; in other words, the females came later. So even something i thought I 100% wouldn't use proved useful in some way at a later time.
Plus, its just a really fun read - it like viewing ancient scrolls of forbidden knowledge. In fact, I'd highly recommend all of the AEG books - they are filled with tons of goodies for DMs to cherry-pick from.
I'll have to see if I can find that one... I really liked Toolbox and Ultimate Toolbox. |
| Markustay |
Posted - 27 Feb 2012 : 03:40:43
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
It could have been in the book SECRETS - I really liked that tome. Sadly, no way of checking now.
You've mentioned this book more than once... Who published it?
AEG
A lot of it was very good, and some of it was like "Huh?", but even the stuff that was just plain weird still gave you lots of juicy stuff to use and think about. I don't think there was single part of that book I didn't use somehow in my own stuff (some with lots of tweaking, but most, not so much). It's presented as a book of books, similar in how PftM was presented, but with far fewer 'contributory tomes', and each more detailed. And everything is presented in such a manner where it may or may not be true - that 'inaccurate third person' that we all loved in older FR sources. In fact, IIRC correctly, at least one 'author' was said to be insane. I think the presentation was one of my favorite things about the book.
For instance, one writer claims that dwarves don't have females - that they are born from the stone itself. When I first read that I was like "I'll never use that", but then when I was later working on my over-cosmology, I thought that would be perfect for the first dwarves; in other words, the females came later. So even something I thought I 100% wouldn't use proved useful in some way at a later time.
Plus, its just a really fun read - its like viewing ancient scrolls of forbidden knowledge. In fact, I'd highly recommend all of the AEG books - they are filled with tons of goodies for DMs to cherry-pick from.
|
| Dennis |
Posted - 27 Feb 2012 : 01:12:30
quote:
Originally posted by Lord Karsus
-It should be fairly obvious that if an Archdevil had some very important item, or information in one central place, it'd be very well protected. Asides for actual defenses, such a place would have location on it's side. The odds that someone/something would be emboldened enough to attack it, I would think, would be fairly slim. Who is going to trek into one of the Nine Hells, break into some place that an Archdevil is protecting, steal something, and leave? Remember how much trouble Mystra had, in Elminster in Hell? On Faerûn, we know Candlekeep contains all sorts of lost lore, a lot of which could have very serious implications in various places. How often have we heard of assaults on Candlkeep? Or, looking at the real world, how often do we hear of belligerents attacking military bases that contain high-profile people/things, like Fort Knox, or the base where a prominent general is stationed/lives, or where nuclear weapons are kept?
Indeed. I must add that the Lorekeepers are personally branded by the Archdevils, and therefore enjoy some certain level of personal protection. |
| Shemmy |
Posted - 27 Feb 2012 : 01:05:04
I would think that they have them, and have them big time, but largely in the sense of fanatical revisionists who perpetually cover up the truth with the official state sanctioned "truth", rewriting the official histories as devils in power die, fall, and ascend in power, influence, and favor - "Bel has ALWAYS been Lord of the First" etc. This is probably all under the aegis of Zimmimar of the Dark 8 (minister of propaganda and morale).
Actually there was a line in either Hellbound or Faces of Evil, talking about diabolic histories being the absolutely -least- reliable among the major fiend races overtly because of their trend of revisionist, state sanctioned histories. The demons tended to be unreadable, and the 'loths tended to have disturbingly accurate and largely secret historical records all the way back to the start of it all (ironic given their reputation as liars' liars). |
| Lord Karsus |
Posted - 27 Feb 2012 : 00:58:39
-Here are the articles. Interesting stuff:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-15353397
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-15720178
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-16505521
-It should be fairly obvious that if an Archdevil had some very important item, or information in one central place, it'd be very well protected. Asides for actual defenses, such a place would have location on it's side. The odds that someone/something would be emboldened enough to attack it, I would think, would be fairly slim. Who is going to trek into one of the Nine Hells, break into some place that an Archdevil is protecting, steal something, and leave? Remember how much trouble Mystra had, in Elminster in Hell? On Faerûn, we know Candlekeep contains all sorts of lost lore, a lot of which could have very serious implications in various places. How often have we heard of assaults on Candlkeep? Or, looking at the real world, how often do we hear of belligerents attacking military bases that contain high-profile people/things, like Fort Knox, or the base where a prominent general is stationed/lives, or where nuclear weapons are kept? |
| Dennis |
Posted - 27 Feb 2012 : 00:26:11
quote:
Originally posted by entreri3478
quote:
Originally posted by Icelander
quote:
Originally posted by entreri3478
Tell that to the Rain Man
As soon as you point out the practical utility that his 'gift' has, over and above having an iPhone app that does it.
Alternatively, as soon as he memorises the Library of Congress and can refer to any information in there as fast or faster as an intelligent person with a familiarity with methods of information storage could look it up. And this is merely one tiny fraction of the available information in one country on one planet on one Prime Material world.
It doesn't really matter how smart you think your fiends are. They still can't memorise any appreciable fraction of the avaialble information on the infinite planes. Even managing to remember where to look would be quite a feat.
A genius isn't someone who can perform a fairly pointless trick of memory, anyway. A fairly small computer chip can store more data than any living human. The difference lies in what they can do with it.
Depending on technology for your answers leaves you extremely vulnerable as soon as that technology disappears.
A demon having a static target such as a giant "library" of knowledge would also be a constant source or stress and vast amounts of energy would be needed to defend it from their enemies.
Demon King Dahun (whom I mentioned in the OP, from Feist's novels) divided his "kingdom"'s denizens into warriors, archivists, civilian, and 'food.' The warriors were never to harm the archivists, and must protect them as much as possible. The archdevils of the Nine can do something similar. Not necessarily in those divisions, but at least have some guardians for the Lorekeepers. |
| Dennis |
Posted - 27 Feb 2012 : 00:21:40
quote:
Originally posted by Aulduron
A human genius once said "never memorize something you can look up"
True in most cases, but not all. I myself memorize a lot (and hope I don't forget them soon) because I'm too lazy to look things up, even though I have internet access 24/7. |
| Dennis |
Posted - 27 Feb 2012 : 00:20:30
quote:
Originally posted by Lord Karsus
quote:
Originally posted by Aulduron
A human genius once said "never memorize something you can look up"
-I read a BBC article not long ago, that a study concluded that technology that aids in our ability to look things up (Wikipedia, search engines) is rewiring our brains to be more dependent on them. In the study sample group, the synapses having to do with memory are more or less unchanged, but the synapses that carried the impulses to look data up on Wikipedia, Google, and so on have strengthened.
I suppose that study is done in UK and the subjects are British.
Unfortunately, it also speaks truth in my country.
But ultimately, it's all a matter of how you use the information. Memorizing is not the key. Familiarization is. |
| Aulduron |
Posted - 27 Feb 2012 : 00:20:27
When Einstein said it he was talking about books and notes |
| Lord Karsus |
Posted - 26 Feb 2012 : 23:33:13
quote:
Originally posted by Aulduron
A human genius once said "never memorize something you can look up"
-I read a BBC article not long ago, that a study concluded that technology that aids in our ability to look things up (Wikipedia, search engines) is rewiring our brains to be more dependent on them. In the study sample group, the synapses having to do with memory are more or less unchanged, but the synapses that carried the impulses to look data up on Wikipedia, Google, and so on have strengthened. |
| Artemas Entreri |
Posted - 26 Feb 2012 : 23:09:50
quote:
Originally posted by Icelander
quote:
Originally posted by entreri3478
Tell that to the Rain Man
As soon as you point out the practical utility that his 'gift' has, over and above having an iPhone app that does it.
Alternatively, as soon as he memorises the Library of Congress and can refer to any information in there as fast or faster as an intelligent person with a familiarity with methods of information storage could look it up. And this is merely one tiny fraction of the available information in one country on one planet on one Prime Material world.
It doesn't really matter how smart you think your fiends are. They still can't memorise any appreciable fraction of the avaialble information on the infinite planes. Even managing to remember where to look would be quite a feat.
A genius isn't someone who can perform a fairly pointless trick of memory, anyway. A fairly small computer chip can store more data than any living human. The difference lies in what they can do with it.
Depending on technology for your answers leaves you extremely vulnerable as soon as that technology disappears.
A demon having a static target such as a giant "library" of knowledge would also be a constant source or stress and vast amounts of energy would be needed to defend it from their enemies. |
| Aulduron |
Posted - 26 Feb 2012 : 23:08:59
I remembered it existed, and looked it up to get the exact wording ;) |
| Artemas Entreri |
Posted - 26 Feb 2012 : 23:07:03
quote:
Originally posted by Aulduron
A human genius once said "never memorize something you can look up"
Did you memorize that quote?  |
| Aulduron |
Posted - 26 Feb 2012 : 22:29:39
A human genius once said "never memorize something you can look up" |
| Icelander |
Posted - 26 Feb 2012 : 22:29:10
quote:
Originally posted by entreri3478
Tell that to the Rain Man
As soon as you point out the practical utility that his 'gift' has, over and above having an iPhone app that does it.
Alternatively, as soon as he memorises the Library of Congress and can refer to any information in there as fast or faster as an intelligent person with a familiarity with methods of information storage could look it up. And this is merely one tiny fraction of the available information in one country on one planet on one Prime Material world.
It doesn't really matter how smart you think your fiends are. They still can't memorise any appreciable fraction of the avaialble information on the infinite planes. Even managing to remember where to look would be quite a feat.
A genius isn't someone who can perform a fairly pointless trick of memory, anyway. A fairly small computer chip can store more data than any living human. The difference lies in what they can do with it. |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 26 Feb 2012 : 22:07:24
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
Interesting. Days to years of servitude is also a possible 'condition.' The length of time would depend on the kind of information one wishes to know---the more sensitive and important the lore, the longer is the time of servitude.
Very nice. I like this. They might use the servants as library guards... or for more "expensive" lore, maybe use them as agents to retrieve other items or lore.
I think the biggest challenge to the archdevils is ensuring they never get cheated, specially if the ones seeking the lost/forbidden/infernal lore are nearly as wise and powerful as they are, like Larloch's lich-servitors, Szass Tam, or even Halaster.
Or sending retribution afterwards if they were cheated. That could also be a mission that they might send servants on... and many demons and devils might leap at the chance to go reap vengeance AND get the information they want. Very interesting topic. Glad you brought it up. |
| Artemas Entreri |
Posted - 26 Feb 2012 : 20:34:27
quote:
Originally posted by Icelander
quote:
Originally posted by entreri3478
Of course, many higher power demons/devils are geniuses in their own right...so the need to keep physical records may be moot.
Nah.
No matter how many orders of magnitude you postulate their memories as being better than human, the amount of possible information is still going to be more.
An efficient use for genius-level intelligence is knowing where to look for information that applies to a situation, not in memorising reams of data.
Tell that to the Rain Man |
| Dennis |
Posted - 26 Feb 2012 : 20:01:19
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
Interesting. Days to years of servitude is also a possible 'condition.' The length of time would depend on the kind of information one wishes to know---the more sensitive and important the lore, the longer is the time of servitude.
Very nice. I like this. They might use the servants as library guards... or for more "expensive" lore, maybe use them as agents to retrieve other items or lore.
I think the biggest challenge to the archdevils is ensuring they never get cheated, specially if the ones seeking the lost/forbidden/infernal lore are nearly as wise and powerful as they are, like Larloch's lich-servitors, Szass Tam, or even Halaster. |
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