| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Light |
Posted - 02 Feb 2012 : 16:24:51
I have never read any books (novels/short stories) on or featuring Manshoon so I'm curious, when he dies and his soul is transferred to his latest created/updated stasis clone but...does it retain Manshoon's memory of his time up until, and of, his death. For example: the times Elminster has killed him, would he remember that Elminster had killed him?
EDIT: Also, once I read somewhere that Manshoon taught his Stasis Clone spell to somebody. Anyone know who it was or am I mistaken and he never told anyone. |
| 30 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| The Masked Mage |
Posted - 29 Jan 2013 : 11:48:36
In the description of stasis clone, it says that a clone is awakened based on a contingency spell. There is nothing whatsoever about "I'm dead" signals. A contingency can be based on anything - it could even be set up to activate upon someone else's death (just an example). The activation of a stasis clone is not part of the stasis clone spell. Rather each is tied to an array of contingencies - and the description talks about unique spells that allow Manshoon to alter these magics. |
| JohnLynch |
Posted - 29 Jan 2013 : 10:20:39
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
If the rules of the universe (physics) are just sphere-specific - as D&D seems to imply - then doesn't that mean that someone can create clones in all different spheres, and they would 'wake up' as soon as that person departed the sphere?
I am thinking about how computers work - the spell gets a 'signal' from the person - either 'on' or 'off' (yes, the universe runs on Binary Code  ). If a person exists the sphere, then the spell (on the clone) should register that that person no longer exists. As far as the magic would be concerned, they have 'died'.
Which means an archmage can leave a trail of himself all over the universe (and now I am back to the Council of Cross-Time Kangs).
You could just as easily assume (or so I think) that the stasis clone remains inert until it receives a "I'm dead" signal. So if you're killed in another Sphere, your clones will never animate (unless awoken by some other means). |
| The Masked Mage |
Posted - 28 Jan 2013 : 22:23:23
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Not to be confused with Stacy's Clone, which was created by Stacicantha of Ahlissa.
For years after her final demise, many Mages took delight in creating these things for parties... until Mordenkainen got wind of it and destroyed all known copies (and many of the disgusting magelings), except for one he keeps hidden amongst his 'don't touch' pile of magic. Elminster had requested a copy after hearing the tale, but was rebuked. Some say he managed to get a hold of a copy regardless.
This should not be confused with Stasis Clown, which was created by none other then Zagyg himself.....
{end transmission}
Stacy's Clone has got it goin' on
She's all I want and I've waited for so long
Stacy, can't you see you're just not the girl for me
I know it might be wrong but I'm in love with Stacy's Clone |
| Arivia |
Posted - 04 Feb 2012 : 03:44:03
http://media.metronews.topscms.com/images/60/77/a63e4f114c308918e17b8e75dfae.jpeg
That could work for Manshoon. That could really work. |
| Tyrant |
Posted - 04 Feb 2012 : 03:33:30
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
quote:
Originally posted by Arivia
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
lol @ Manshoon Prime.
I think the "original" Manshoon is long gone. Even the "oldest" Manshoon clones are still clones.
Again, Ed has indicated otherwise.
Y'see, none of these Manshoon clones have yet found the Matrix of Zhentilar Leadership, which is currently lost somewhere in the great scrapyards that dot the Endless Wastes, guarded by Raumathari offshoots who call themselves the Junk-Men.
I've heard it said that the Matrix of Zhentilar Leadership was supposedly once used to halt the advance of the Chaos-Bringer Cyricron. It is also rumoured that one day, a member of the Black Network would rise through their ranks, and use the power of the Matrix, to "darken their lightest hour."
The Rise of Manshoon Prime, perhaps?
But will he also be voiced by Judd Nelson? Something to ponder till the day when all are one. |
| Arivia |
Posted - 04 Feb 2012 : 02:27:03
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
quote:
Originally posted by Arivia
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
lol @ Manshoon Prime.
I think the "original" Manshoon is long gone. Even the "oldest" Manshoon clones are still clones.
Again, Ed has indicated otherwise.
Y'see, none of these Manshoon clones have yet found the Matrix of Zhentilar Leadership, which is currently lost somewhere in the great scrapyards that dot the Endless Wastes, guarded by Raumathari offshoots who call themselves the Junk-Men.
I've heard it said that the Matrix of Zhentilar Leadership was supposedly once used to halt the advance of the Chaos-Bringer Cyricron. It is also rumoured that one day, a member of the Black Network would rise through their ranks, and use the power of the Matrix, to "darken their lightest hour."
The Rise of Manshoon Prime, perhaps?
We are now all going to the Special Hell. |
| The Sage |
Posted - 04 Feb 2012 : 01:54:21
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Which means an archmage can leave a trail of himself all over the universe (and now I am back to the Council of Cross-Time Kangs).
Or it could be like the Marvel theory about Doctor Doom's time-travelling exploits leading to him adopting all kinds of personas in different time-periods?
You know, how Kang might actually be the Doom of one possible future? Or Rama-Tut being the Doom trapped in Pharaohnic Egypt?
It would be interesting to learn of something similar happening with Manshoon Prime. Instances of his temporal exploits resulting in different versions of himself in Toril's history. |
| The Sage |
Posted - 04 Feb 2012 : 01:47:06
quote:
Originally posted by Arivia
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
lol @ Manshoon Prime.
I think the "original" Manshoon is long gone. Even the "oldest" Manshoon clones are still clones.
Again, Ed has indicated otherwise.
Y'see, none of these Manshoon clones have yet found the Matrix of Zhentilar Leadership, which is currently lost somewhere in the great scrapyards that dot the Endless Wastes, guarded by Raumathari offshoots who call themselves the Junk-Men.
I've heard it said that the Matrix of Zhentilar Leadership was supposedly once used to halt the advance of the Chaos-Bringer Cyricron. It is also rumoured that one day, a member of the Black Network would rise through their ranks, and use the power of the Matrix, to "darken their lightest hour."
The Rise of Manshoon Prime, perhaps? |
| The Sage |
Posted - 04 Feb 2012 : 01:43:04
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Tyrant
I wonder about the current vampire Manshoon's power level. He has had 100 years or so of not dying so there has been no level/ability/memory loss to slow down his accumulation of personal power and ability. Is is possible he is the most powerful version yet (that we know of), or close to it, because of this? I say that we know of because for all we know there is a Manshoon Prime out there who somehow split his soul and has been watching from afar (or perhaps from not so far...) as his never ending string of clones runs amok (or carries out some secret agenda of his). Or any number of other possibilities that see more than one of him being out there.
Edit to add: I don't mean in terms of published game stats. I put him in the same group as the Chosen, the Zulkirs, etc who's published stats should probably be taken with a grain of salt.
It has been indicated, by Ed, that we've not yet seen the real Manshoon in print.
Yep. And there's a healthy dose of NDA's backing it up too, as I recall. |
| crazedventurers |
Posted - 04 Feb 2012 : 00:11:25
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
lol @ Manshoon Prime.
I think the "original" Manshoon is long gone. Even the "oldest" Manshoon clones are still clones.
Again, Ed has indicated otherwise.
Aye WR is correct here, there is indeed a Manshoon Prime sitting in his extra-dimensional hidey-hole somewhere watching his schemes and dreams unfold whilst his clone(s) run(s) around being head of the Zhentarim and doing all the hard work, whilst Manshoon Prime gets all the rewards.
http://forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=12084&SearchTerms=manshoon+prime
Its about half way down (see my and then THO's post directly after)
Cheers
Damian |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 03 Feb 2012 : 22:49:05
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
If the rules of the universe (physics) are just sphere-specific - as D&D seems to imply - then doesn't that mean that someone can create clones in all different spheres, and they would 'wake up' as soon as that person departed the sphere?
I am thinking about how computers work - the spell gets a 'signal' from the person - either 'on' or 'off' (yes, the universe runs on Binary Code ). If a person exists the sphere, then the spell (on the clone) should register that that person no longer exists. As far as the magic would be concerned, they have 'died'.
Which means an archmage can leave a trail of himself all over the universe (and now I am back to the Council of Cross-Time Kangs).
I can see that, though I'm not sure what the purpose would be. What would Manshoon gain, for example, by having another Manshoon running around on Oerth? |
| Markustay |
Posted - 03 Feb 2012 : 22:40:05
If the rules of the universe (physics) are just sphere-specific - as D&D seems to imply - then doesn't that mean that someone can create clones in all different spheres, and they would 'wake up' as soon as that person departed the sphere?
I am thinking about how computers work - the spell gets a 'signal' from the person - either 'on' or 'off' (yes, the universe runs on Binary Code ). If a person exists the sphere, then the spell (on the clone) should register that that person no longer exists. As far as the magic would be concerned, they have 'died'.
Which means an archmage can leave a trail of himself all over the universe (and now I am back to the Council of Cross-Time Kangs). |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 03 Feb 2012 : 22:37:55
quote:
Originally posted by Arivia
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
lol @ Manshoon Prime.
I think the "original" Manshoon is long gone. Even the "oldest" Manshoon clones are still clones.
Again, Ed has indicated otherwise.
Y'see, none of these Manshoon clones have yet found the Matrix of Zhentilar Leadership, which is currently lost somewhere in the great scrapyards that dot the Endless Wastes, guarded by Raumathari offshoots who call themselves the Junk-Men.
Let's not have a D&D version of Unicron, please! |
| Tyrant |
Posted - 03 Feb 2012 : 22:35:38
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Tyrant
I wonder about the current vampire Manshoon's power level. He has had 100 years or so of not dying so there has been no level/ability/memory loss to slow down his accumulation of personal power and ability. Is is possible he is the most powerful version yet (that we know of), or close to it, because of this? I say that we know of because for all we know there is a Manshoon Prime out there who somehow split his soul and has been watching from afar (or perhaps from not so far...) as his never ending string of clones runs amok (or carries out some secret agenda of his). Or any number of other possibilities that see more than one of him being out there.
Edit to add: I don't mean in terms of published game stats. I put him in the same group as the Chosen, the Zulkirs, etc who's published stats should probably be taken with a grain of salt.
It has been indicated, by Ed, that we've not yet seen the real Manshoon in print.
Thanks, I thought I had read something to that effect in the Ask Ed section or a quote linking to it but couldn't be sure. With the quote Sage linked to calling Manshoon one of the ultimate puppet masters it seemed like something that he would do. |
| Arivia |
Posted - 03 Feb 2012 : 21:55:59
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
lol @ Manshoon Prime.
I think the "original" Manshoon is long gone. Even the "oldest" Manshoon clones are still clones.
Again, Ed has indicated otherwise.
Y'see, none of these Manshoon clones have yet found the Matrix of Zhentilar Leadership, which is currently lost somewhere in the great scrapyards that dot the Endless Wastes, guarded by Raumathari offshoots who call themselves the Junk-Men. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 03 Feb 2012 : 21:19:40
quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
lol @ Manshoon Prime.
I think the "original" Manshoon is long gone. Even the "oldest" Manshoon clones are still clones.
Again, Ed has indicated otherwise. |
| Ayrik |
Posted - 03 Feb 2012 : 21:06:35
lol @ Manshoon Prime.
I think the "original" Manshoon is long gone. Even the "oldest" Manshoon clones are still clones. |
| Markustay |
Posted - 03 Feb 2012 : 20:03:06
In a Buffy storyline (I only caught a few episodes, and was lucky enough to have seen this one), she 'dies' and is then brought back, by resustitation (this actually happened in a previous episode I didn't see). However, the moment she died, another Slayer was activated, and for the first time, the world had two Slayers.
So what if the unthinkable happens - one of Manshoon's underlings actually bothers to resurrect him? (something Manshoon himself never expected)
Also - and this applies to the clone wars as well - is the soul split? |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 03 Feb 2012 : 19:16:59
quote:
Originally posted by Tyrant
I wonder about the current vampire Manshoon's power level. He has had 100 years or so of not dying so there has been no level/ability/memory loss to slow down his accumulation of personal power and ability. Is is possible he is the most powerful version yet (that we know of), or close to it, because of this? I say that we know of because for all we know there is a Manshoon Prime out there who somehow split his soul and has been watching from afar (or perhaps from not so far...) as his never ending string of clones runs amok (or carries out some secret agenda of his). Or any number of other possibilities that see more than one of him being out there.
Edit to add: I don't mean in terms of published game stats. I put him in the same group as the Chosen, the Zulkirs, etc who's published stats should probably be taken with a grain of salt.
It has been indicated, by Ed, that we've not yet seen the real Manshoon in print. |
| Hawkins |
Posted - 03 Feb 2012 : 18:41:44
quote:
Originally posted by Tyrant
I wonder about the current vampire Manshoon's power level. He has had 100 years or so of not dying so there has been no level/ability/memory loss to slow down his accumulation of personal power and ability.
I think it possible (but have no inside knowledge of this) that we might see this Manshoon (or at least his agents) in the last Shadowbane novel (yet-to-come), Eye of Justice, since I think that Erik is sending Shadowbane back to Westgate. |
| Tyrant |
Posted - 03 Feb 2012 : 16:40:35
I wonder about the current vampire Manshoon's power level. He has had 100 years or so of not dying so there has been no level/ability/memory loss to slow down his accumulation of personal power and ability. Is is possible he is the most powerful version yet (that we know of), or close to it, because of this? I say that we know of because for all we know there is a Manshoon Prime out there who somehow split his soul and has been watching from afar (or perhaps from not so far...) as his never ending string of clones runs amok (or carries out some secret agenda of his). Or any number of other possibilities that see more than one of him being out there.
Edit to add: I don't mean in terms of published game stats. I put him in the same group as the Chosen, the Zulkirs, etc who's published stats should probably be taken with a grain of salt. |
| Thauranil |
Posted - 03 Feb 2012 : 07:49:32
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
They are like computer backups - they will only know whatever it is Manshoon knew when they were created, unless he updates them (which he apparently didn't bother to do all that much).
Question: If you had this spell, and had a fairly young clone, why wouldn't you just update it and kill yourself?
Well these clones were supposed to be his last ditch survival measures so he would not use them recklessly. Besides I think anyone would feel just a little bit of misapprehension using this method because at the back of your mind there would always be a niggling doubt if the clone was really You. A good example is Peter F Hamiltons Commonwealth series where the even public utilizes something like this technique (with technology like memory cells , rejuvenation and cloning of course not magic) to achieve immortality but the elite members of society all choose to hold on to their original bodies as they cannot be sure if their clones will lack something , their essence or their soul if you will . |
| Light |
Posted - 03 Feb 2012 : 05:52:58
quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
I have to admit that achieving immortality through a one-man population is an interesting notion. Did/does Manshoon sometimes try to fool himself, stashing some clones away in places he would normally never consider? Or does he usually tend to think consistently, and make his clones accessible to his earlier selfs by putting them in places he would consider obvious? Even assuming that any two given clones are "simultaneously updated", are any differences introduced through the magical cloning process?
I can see it now, Manshoon awakens does some plotting and then decides to hide a stasis clone in "places he would normally never consider" only to find that a "previous" Manshoon had indeed already stored stasis clones in these places because he thought his future selves would never consider these places. |
| Ayrik |
Posted - 03 Feb 2012 : 01:50:48
I have to admit that achieving immortality through a one-man population is an interesting notion. Did/does Manshoon sometimes try to fool himself, stashing some clones away in places he would normally never consider? Or does he usually tend to think consistently, and make his clones accessible to his earlier selfs by putting them in places he would consider obvious? Even assuming that any two given clones are "simultaneously updated", are any differences introduced through the magical cloning process? |
| The Sage |
Posted - 03 Feb 2012 : 01:32:02
With regard to Manshoon, his power, and the potential opportunities for further power presented by his clones, you might want to consider this bit from both the Lady Hooded One, and Ed Greenwood:-
"With respect, folks, some of the discussion here is founded on incomplete understandings. The lower levels of various Manshoon clones aren't "mistakes." Manshoon's clones aren't created by the PHB clone spell, but rather by Manshoon's stasis clone spell (which has been detailed by Ed in 2nd Ed sources, and remember: FR lore isn't trumped by rules edition changes, so just because 3e and 3.5e have come along since then, it DOESN'T mean there isn't still a "stasis clone" spell used by Manshoon. Several scenes in Ed's novels detail the "awakening" of Manshoon's clones, which normally occurred only when the "previous" Manshoon died. The multiple clones, hidden all over the Realms (El has threatened Manshoon in published Realmslore that he knows where they all are), each have the levels, memories, etc. they had when created . . . so some of them are of FAR less power than 'more modern' Manshoons (so killing Manshoon DOES harm him). Manshoon adds new clones from time to time, but what happened with the Manshoon Wars was that all (or almost all) of the clones were awakened at once. Hence all the different levels, etc. To reiterate: there is no "transfer" of existing spells, memories, etc. to a newly awakened clone.
And yes, Manshoon IS the ultimate puppet master among non-liches and non-zulkirs, although there's something going on with Hesperdan that Ed hasn't revealed to us all, yet.
Not trying to rain on the parade here, just to correct things before too many assumptions in reasoning are made based on the wrong clone spell.
love,
THO" |
| Rhewtani |
Posted - 02 Feb 2012 : 19:44:13
In a homebrew game world I had, there was an order of wizards who all wore masks. They did this because they were all keyed to an ancient artifact that produced a new clone when an existing member died. They would then reawaken in this structure. One of the PCs was a member of this order and had been tortured and mutilated by drow while imprisoned. His comrades, upon rescuing him, made a show for the party of bundling him up to take to a healer, but once the party was gone, they off'ed him and destroyed the body.
I could see plenty of situations where stasis clones make a reasonable solution to all sorts of problems. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 02 Feb 2012 : 19:23:52
The original, 2E write-up of Stasis Clone was in the Ruins of Zhentil Keep boxed set. |
| Markustay |
Posted - 02 Feb 2012 : 19:21:14
Not to be confused with Stacy's Clone, which was created by Stacicantha of Ahlissa.
For years after her final demise, many Mages took delight in creating these things for parties... until Mordenkainen got wind of it and destroyed all known copies (and many of the disgusting magelings), except for one he keeps hidden amongst his 'don't touch' pile of magic. Elminster had requested a copy after hearing the tale, but was rebuked. Some say he managed to get a hold of a copy regardless.
This should not be confused with Stasis Clown, which was created by none other then Zagyg himself.....
{end transmission} |
| Arivia |
Posted - 02 Feb 2012 : 18:41:20
quote:
Originally posted by Hawkins
quote:
Originally posted by Tamsar
Here's the goodies on Stasis Clone. . .
Do you mind citing where you got this from, both to appease the CoC and for my own curiosity. The only one I was able to find was in Lords of Darkness, which clearly states that it is as the clone spell with a couple of modifications. Albeit, that is a 3e version of the spell, and it may have had further modification in 3.5e.
It didn't, since it got passed on without update through the Player's Guide to Faerun.
I *think* the 2e version might be from the Villain's Lorebook or some such. |
| Hawkins |
Posted - 02 Feb 2012 : 18:30:57
quote:
Originally posted by Tamsar
Here's the goodies on Stasis Clone. . .
Do you mind citing where you got this from, both to appease the CoC and for my own curiosity. The only one I was able to find was in Lords of Darkness, which clearly states that it is as the clone spell with a couple of modifications. Albeit, that is a 3e version of the spell, and it may have had further modification in 3.5e. |
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