| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Dennis |
Posted - 01 Jan 2012 : 13:47:28
....of Shade Enclave. For your convenience, I copied the description of each prince from the Lords of Darkness sourcebook and some from wiki. Perhaps it’s a bit unfair for the other princes who didn’t get enough novel time to be included in the poll, but as I understand, not everyone here reads the novels, so their choice most likely depends on how they use the princes in their games.
---
Rivalen - is the first of the twelve Princes of Shade. Rivalen is an accomplished wizard but also The Nightseer, a high priest of Shar, the goddess of loss and night. This makes him what the Netheril call a Theurge, blending the magic of the Art and the Power. If High Prince Telamont is the temporal ruler of the Shadovars, Prince Rivalen is their spiritual leader. From the massive Hall of Shadow located near the royal palace, the prince administers Shar's clergy and pronounces her will to the faithful. The prince's divination enabled his father to finally guide the city back to Faerun, where Shar hopes the Shadovars tip the balance of power in her favor in the long struggle against her hated sister, Selune.
Rivalen orchestrated, with the help of his brother Brennus, the takeover of the land of Sembia and its reduction to a vassal state of the City of Shade.
Rivalen Tanthul is now a demigod/exarch, having absorbed a shard of Mask's power after helping Erevis Cale and Drasek Riven kill Kesson Rel.
Clariburnus - is the youngest captain in the city's military. Though gossip hints that his meteoric rise is due in no small part to his high birth, those who know the prince recognize his worth as a warrior and a tactical commander. He has not yet expressed an opinion about how Shadovars should conquer the Heartlands, largely because no one has yet asked him.
Yder - is the right hand of his older brother Prince Rivalen Tanthul, whilst being respected and feared as a warrior.
By 1372 DR, Yder is a warrior dedicated to the cause of his deity, commanding the guards of the Hall of Shadow and undertakes church-sponsored missions. One such mission he undertook was the infiltration of Shadowdale in 1374 DR, where by creating a Shadow Simulacrum of himself he managed to possess Lord Mourngrym Amcathra. This allowed the Army of Darkhope to take control of the Dale with little resistance.
Melegaunt - was one of the youngest princes out of his twelve brothers and a spy from Thultanthar, now referred to as the City of Shade. He had a barely above average aptitude in the magical arts, but was trained exactly like the rest of the princes and the secret kept safe on pain of death by order of his father, Telamont. What Melegaunt lacks in arcane aptitude, however, he makes up for in guile. He has a knack for deception, combined with a talent of false empathy, that makes him a formidable manipulator. There were few people outside the royal family that he could not win over with his combination of charm, good looks, and seeming sincerity. Indeed, he practically made it his life's work. It is believed that he tricked Galaeron Nihmedu into opening the Sharn Wall in Evereska thus unleashing an army of Phaerimm in Faerûn.
Lamorak - was appointed a decade ago by his father to oversee the Determinists' Guild. It is Lamorak and his fellow Determinists who administer the tests to each Shadovar in order to determine how they may best serve the City of Shade. He is also in charge of the closely guarded process of selecting and transforming deserving Shadovars into shades.
The prince's politics are relatively neutral, but when all is said and done he thinks that it might be wise for the High Prince to manipulate, rather than enter open war against, the city's enemies at this time.
Dethud - is perhaps the most reserved of the twelve princes. His reputation for silence is famous throughout the City of Shade. He rarely speaks directly to anyone, and when he does, it is usually with the voice of wisdom.
Among the royal family, Dethud is the closest thing to a peacemaker. The other eleven princes continue to seek Dethud's advice on many of their most vexing problems and private quarrels. Dethud rarely takes sides in such matters, but analyzes the situation and offers incisive, logical solutions.
The High Prince often includes Dethud in military or political councils, making the quiet prince the second most influential of his brethren after Telamont. When pressed for his opinion regarding the best means of achieving his father's goal of conquest, Dethud favors Melegaunt's policy of manipulation.
Aglarel - took over as commander of the High Prince's personal bodyguard when the City of Shade returned to Faerûn. He knows that it is only matter of time before the High Prince is the target of an assassination attempt - but whether that attempt is directed by an enemy government, a secret organization such as the Harpers, or one of his own brothers, he doesn't know. He doesn't really care, either, because Aglarel has no interest in what he sees as pointless political and power squabbles. He is loyal to his father first and foremost and devotes every waking minute to protecting him.
Brennus - is the youngest brother among the princes, and many would say that Telamont has a special fondness for him. Identified early as an intellectual prodigy, the boy was placed in the hands of the city's finest tutors and educators.
Although Brennus displayed the royal family's expected facility with arcane magic, his teachers noted that he showed an equally strong aptitude for history. At his father's direction, Brennus's tutors focused the prince's education on the rich history and lore of the Shadovar. Brennus thrived in this discipline, and today he is one of the City of Shade's foremost experts on its Netherese roots.
It is he who has located the remnants of Netheril still extant in Faerûn and sent expeditions to these sites to recover what treasures and knowledge remain there. The prince is convinced that the arcane power hidden in the ruins of Netheril holds the key to that plan's success.
Mattick and Vattick - are twins. Black-haired and black-eyed, they are perfect replicas of one another. (Mattick is the elder by 2 minutes.) It is virtually impossible for anyone other than their parents to distinguish one from the other. The twins have used their identical appearance to perpetrate innumerable conspiracies and jokes, some benign and others much less so, on the royal household since they were old enough to walk. They are inseparable, rarely found any great distance from one another. The princes divide their time between research at the academy of alchemy and helping their youngest brother Brennus seek out clues to the locations of old Netherese sites. They side with Brennus and Hadrhune, whom they idolize, in supporting the swift destruction of all threats to Shadovar rule.
Rapha. He wasn’t mentioned in Lords of Darkness. The following entry is from wiki, but it doesn’t state a source, so I am not sure if it’s fanfic or canon. I cannot verify it either, because there’s {almost) nary a mention of him in Return of the Archwizards. According to that site, Rapha is highly pragmatic, caring little for anyone other than himself. He follows Shar only outwardly, and inwardly could care less about the gods and goddesses that rule the world, as long as they aren't bothering him. He is somewhat loyal to his family and the rest of the Shadovar, but really only remains with them because having access to their wealth and influence benefits him. Of course, he is careful to hide these thoughts from his father. He plans on one day wresting control of the Shadovar from his father.Rapha is obsessed with magic, and is constantly trying to become more powerful in this aspect. Magical items are one of his greatest obsessions, and he also enjoys making constructs and other magical servants. He uses the shadow weave for most of his magic because he finds its power highly useful. He's in love with violence and power, and enjoys manipulating others to his own ends. His greatest weaknesses are his pride and lust. He sees himself as better than most everyone else, and lusts after both power and women. If he sees something he wants, he expects to get it. No questions asked.Rapha can appear to be very friendly and outgoing when one meets him. Many have called him unusually charismatic, a trait that has earned him many loyal followers. He uses his infernal abilities to make himself appear to be completely human (or whatever race is the norm for the land he is in), and usually finds it rather easy to get along with others. That doesn't mean he trusts them, of course, and while he has friends he is always wary of them.
Rapha uses his magic in a fight, creating grand shows of destruction and terror. However, if it is necessary he has an arsenal of quick deadly spells at his disposal as well. He knows a rather large variety of spells, and uses them for more than just combat. Aside from his magic, he also has training in Two-Weapon Fighting, specifically with a whip and sword combination. His magical items and feats allow him to excel in them regardless of his minimal training. He prefers to fight from a distance, utilizing magic or his whip and sword, both of which have great reach.
Escanor – Strangely, he wasn’t described either in Lords of Darkness. But for those of you who read Return of the Archwizards, he’s the one who led the small Shadovar troop that rid Myth Drannor of the phaerimm, who organized and led the casting of the Shadowshell around Evareska, and who made Galaeron almost die with jealousy. |
| 30 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| Dennis |
Posted - 04 Jun 2013 : 14:04:16
In another thread that also discusses the Tanthuls, I provided the complete list of all the princes’ names. Then I was reminded of this thread. And sorry, Rapha does not exist in canon. The twelfth prince is actually Malath, a rather forgettable prince—who briefly appeared in The Sorcerer and was killed by Vala (who was presumably given a ring or wand by any of the Chosen during their assault in Shade). |
| Dennis |
Posted - 15 Jun 2012 : 07:38:34
Given the last excerpt that Paul shared, it looks like Brennus is practically powerless against his brother. So it's likely he'll eventually try to get allies to help him in his cause. Some of his brothers, if he'd dare defy his father. Or maybe...Mephistopheles himself. He once summoned him (albeit by accident), so he might be able to do it again. That is, if the archdevil deigns to be summoned. |
| Thauranil |
Posted - 13 Jun 2012 : 14:50:58
I don't think that's really going to stop Brennus from trying though, frankly I am a bit surprised that he has waited this long. No doubt some plots are being hatched as we speak . |
| Dennis |
Posted - 13 Jun 2012 : 00:52:42
Probably. Though I think he'd endeavor to keep it hidden from his other brothers, and try to convince Brennus to do the same.
Even if they both want to, killing Rivalen is not an option. Not only would they be disobeying their father, Rivalen has also risen to something that's beyond them now. |
| Thauranil |
Posted - 12 Jun 2012 : 12:59:11
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
What would Melegaunt do if he were alive and learned of Rivalen's matricide (before his other brothers would)? It wasn't mentioned in any sources that he was close to Alashar. Only Brennus was. But, I don't think he'd be happy to see his brothers ganging up on each other---which would likely be case if they all knew. Would he help Brennus kill Rivalen, or try to pacify him to bury the truth forever? The latter sounds impossible, given Brennus's disposition.
Melegaunt always seemed like the one with the most active conscience among all the brothers so frankly i think he would be horrified to know that the brother he looked up to was guilty of matricide. |
| Dennis |
Posted - 16 Jan 2012 : 14:02:09
What would Melegaunt do if he were alive and learned of Rivalen's matricide (before his other brothers would)? It wasn't mentioned in any sources that he was close to Alashar. Only Brennus was. But, I don't think he'd be happy to see his brothers ganging up on each other---which would likely be the case if they all knew. Would he help Brennus kill Rivalen, or try to pacify him to bury the truth forever? The latter sounds impossible, given Brennus's disposition. |
| Thauranil |
Posted - 16 Jan 2012 : 10:56:58
quote:
Originally posted by MrHedgehog
The Forgotten Realms is supposed to be a creation for people of all ages. When I was in junior high I did not see a problem with being a real, good hero. In an entire world there is certainly room for the genuinely good.
Drizzt is genuinely good and he seems to be the most popular character in the Forgotten Realms franchise. Also beings such as Eilistraee, Cadderly, and so forth seem to be the most widely available products. Even the tiniest book store has a Drizzt book and the Cleric quintet.
Sure everybody loves Drizzet but even he has grown up a bit and longer sees the world as black and white and Cadderly is more or less dead. So the times are a changing and i have to agree that it is certainly more realistic this way. The world is not black and white it is grey. |
| Dennis |
Posted - 14 Jan 2012 : 13:45:10
quote:
Originally posted by entreri3478
quote:
Originally posted by Thauranil
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
quote:
Originally posted by MrHedgehog
It more seems like they don't like having bastions of good anywhere in the realms, anymore.
Maybe because more and more people prefer the bad guys.
Or perhaps people just dont feel that there is such a clear cut distinction between the two sides anymore. I mean characters such as Riven were extremely popluar but you could hardly classify him as "good".
I prefer it this way, seems much more realistic to me. Paladins riding around in freshly polished armor saving maidens from monsters has been played out.
As do I. Other than the fact that I detest paladins, there's a certain level of untruth in seeing someone continuously doing good from page one to last. |
| Dennis |
Posted - 14 Jan 2012 : 13:41:28
quote:
Originally posted by MrHedgehog
The Forgotten Realms is supposed to be a creation for people of all ages. When I was in junior high I did not see a problem with being a real, good hero. In an entire world there is certainly room for the genuinely good.
True. But people change, and so do their tastes in fiction. The prevalence of shady characters are also apparent in different media, and pretty much popular. It's not just in fantasy novels. I see nothing wrong it. And if I may add, it's more realistic. There's a very thin line that separates good from evil. |
| MrHedgehog |
Posted - 13 Jan 2012 : 21:37:40
The Forgotten Realms is supposed to be a creation for people of all ages. When I was in junior high I did not see a problem with being a real, good hero. In an entire world there is certainly room for the genuinely good.
Drizzt is genuinely good and he seems to be the most popular character in the Forgotten Realms franchise. Also beings such as Eilistraee, Cadderly, and so forth seem to be the most widely available products. Even the tiniest book store has a Drizzt book and the Cleric quintet. |
| Artemas Entreri |
Posted - 13 Jan 2012 : 21:20:10
quote:
Originally posted by Thauranil
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
quote:
Originally posted by MrHedgehog
It more seems like they don't like having bastions of good anywhere in the realms, anymore.
Maybe because more and more people prefer the bad guys.
Or perhaps people just dont feel that there is such a clear cut distinction between the two sides anymore. I mean characters such as Riven were extremely popluar but you could hardly classify him as "good".
I prefer it this way, seems much more realistic to me. Paladins riding around in freshly polished armor saving maidens from monsters has been played out. |
| Dennis |
Posted - 13 Jan 2012 : 14:21:38
quote:
Originally posted by Thauranil
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
quote:
Originally posted by MrHedgehog
It more seems like they don't like having bastions of good anywhere in the realms, anymore.
Maybe because more and more people prefer the bad guys.
Or perhaps people just dont feel that there is such a clear cut distinction between the two sides anymore. I mean characters such as Riven were extremely popluar but you could hardly classify him as "good".
Agreed. And it appears like that's the trend of fantasy these days, given that many of the most popular fantasy series today have "shady" heroes and villains alike, like the works of Rothfuss, Weeks, Erikson, and Martin. |
| Thauranil |
Posted - 13 Jan 2012 : 10:26:52
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
quote:
Originally posted by MrHedgehog
It more seems like they don't like having bastions of good anywhere in the realms, anymore.
Maybe because more and more people prefer the bad guys.
Or perhaps people just dont feel that there is such a clear cut distinction between the two sides anymore. I mean characters such as Riven were extremely popluar but you could hardly classify him as "good". |
| Dennis |
Posted - 12 Jan 2012 : 17:12:40
quote:
Originally posted by MrHedgehog
It more seems like they don't like having bastions of good anywhere in the realms, anymore.
Maybe because more and more people prefer the bad guys. |
| MrHedgehog |
Posted - 12 Jan 2012 : 16:29:11
No interesting Empire doesn't have interesting enemies.
Netheril would be more intersting if it were wracked with some strife from Selunnara, Aumvor the Undying and Larloch opposing them as the heirs to the title "Netherese". I never got the impression the original Netheril was a unified Empire but more a series of city states. Its not like Selunnara would topple the already established Shade Netheril, they would be unestablished and perhaps less powerful magically...but still there combating them.
It more seems like they don't like having bastions of good anywhere in the realms, anymore. |
| Dennis |
Posted - 12 Jan 2012 : 14:23:35
And that may be a good thing for the fans of the Shadovar... Or/and for Paul's. |
| Thauranil |
Posted - 12 Jan 2012 : 11:19:13
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by MrHedgehog
I would like to see the appearance of Opus/Selunnara, too, as i've posted many times before. But the game creators don't seem as keen on creating good places, only apocalyptic evil environments. They must be more popular and appealing to consumers.
I think bringing Selunnara back would offer a lot more intrigue and possibilities. I was disappointed that they presented that as an option and then didn't do it.
I suppose it is because they want the new Netheril Empire to expand more… Selunnara, if introduced, would most likely hinder that.
 It does seem that way sometimes doesn't it. |
| Dennis |
Posted - 09 Jan 2012 : 15:17:45
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by MrHedgehog
I would like to see the appearance of Opus/Selunnara, too, as i've posted many times before. But the game creators don't seem as keen on creating good places, only apocalyptic evil environments. They must be more popular and appealing to consumers.
I think bringing Selunnara back would offer a lot more intrigue and possibilities. I was disappointed that they presented that as an option and then didn't do it.
I suppose it is because they want the new Netheril Empire to expand more… Selunnara, if introduced, would most likely hinder that. |
| The Sage |
Posted - 09 Jan 2012 : 15:15:39
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by MrHedgehog
I would like to see the appearance of Opus/Selunnara, too, as i've posted many times before. But the game creators don't seem as keen on creating good places, only apocalyptic evil environments. They must be more popular and appealing to consumers.
I think bringing Selunnara back would offer a lot more intrigue and possibilities. I was disappointed that they presented that as an option and then didn't do it.
I would prefer Selûnarra to remain where it is. I think it's entirely more interesting as a *potential* factor, rather than something that has already been used. In fact, I would rather have the conflict between Selûnarra and Shade being something subtle and, perhaps, waged in secret -- carried out by agents travelling back and forth from the Gates of the Moon. There's plenty of roleplaying opportunities, and it also keeps Selûnarra firmly in the Gates of the Moon. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 09 Jan 2012 : 14:59:24
quote:
Originally posted by MrHedgehog
I would like to see the appearance of Opus/Selunnara, too, as i've posted many times before. But the game creators don't seem as keen on creating good places, only apocalyptic evil environments. They must be more popular and appealing to consumers.
I think bringing Selunnara back would offer a lot more intrigue and possibilities. I was disappointed that they presented that as an option and then didn't do it. |
| Dennis |
Posted - 09 Jan 2012 : 14:00:25
quote:
Originally posted by MrHedgehog
I would like to see the appearance of Opus/Selunnara, too, as i've posted many times before. But the game creators don't seem as keen on creating good places, only apocalyptic evil environments. They must be more popular and appealing to consumers.
That's always a possibility. Though as I mentioned in some related threads, if Wizads decides to rid of Shade, or at the very least, cripple them so they would not be as big a threat as they are now, I suppose the "crippling" would happen from within. The princes backstabbing each other... Brennus seeking outside aid to kill Rivalen, even if the price is for him to divulge to that outside entity some crucial information about Shade's army and strategies... |
| Imp |
Posted - 09 Jan 2012 : 13:50:23
Exactly. Don't diss me for caring about the action instead of it's motivations. I have holy right to enjoy fighting, no matter the reason. |
| Kentinal |
Posted - 09 Jan 2012 : 13:45:07
There are different styles of play. Levels also matter.
Saving a Princess in my view is just as important as saving a kidnapped peasant.
Are you only a hero if you rescue someone important for a reward of gold or maybe marriage or saving another that only reward is a plate of soup?
Each set there own values on what is a good, enjoyable game. |
| Imp |
Posted - 09 Jan 2012 : 13:21:13
Please, show me where I said that the PCs should fight for no reason (other than gold). |
| Lady Shadowflame |
Posted - 09 Jan 2012 : 12:54:44
quote:
Originally posted by Imp
I see you don't play very often.
Also, chill out, miss. No need getting so cynical.
I see you like to be condescending.
Also, I don't think it's cynicism to want my brave heroes to be heroic for more reasons than gold pieces. Unless we're talking Bizarro World cynicism, in which 'gallant heroes venture forth to protect the innocent' is cynical instead of idealistic... |
| Imp |
Posted - 09 Jan 2012 : 12:36:24
I see you don't play very often.
Also, chill out, miss. No need getting so cynical. |
| Lady Shadowflame |
Posted - 09 Jan 2012 : 12:17:43
quote:
Originally posted by Imp
quote:
Originally posted by MrHedgehog
I would like to see the appearance of Opus/Selunnara, too, as i've posted many times before. But the game creators don't seem as keen on creating good places, only apocalyptic evil environments. They must be more popular and appealing to consumers.
The PCs must have something to fight.
PCs should also have something to fight for. If there's nothing the good guys are trying to save, why should they bother? If the land the bad guys want to conquer is just Genericville, why risk one's life to stop them?
And for that matter, what do the bad guys want there? Mr NPC the Shopkeeper's prize collection of ten-foot poles? Do they have any real reason for wanting to take over?
If there isn't a heroic young queen there whose land must be stopped before she can muster the armies of righteousness to crush their ambitions... why are they even trying so hard?
They could just walk into Genericville the same way the adventurers do, if there's nothing really significant about it.
And the adventurers have no real reason to stop them, if there's nothing there worth protecting, no source of local goodness that must be defended.
Oh, sure, you could adventure just to get that +4 Longsword of Killstabbitty. But are you even one of the good guys anymore, if you're only in it for loot and levels? |
| Imp |
Posted - 09 Jan 2012 : 10:08:59
PCs are the good guys more often than not. |
| MrHedgehog |
Posted - 09 Jan 2012 : 09:33:33
PCs can be Netherese loyal to the City of Shade people fighting the Selunnarans = ) |
| Imp |
Posted - 09 Jan 2012 : 09:19:55
quote:
Originally posted by MrHedgehog
I would like to see the appearance of Opus/Selunnara, too, as i've posted many times before. But the game creators don't seem as keen on creating good places, only apocalyptic evil environments. They must be more popular and appealing to consumers.
The PCs must have something to fight. |
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