| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Wolfhound75 |
Posted - 23 Dec 2011 : 18:54:06
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
From Sorcery in YOUR Realms page 5.
Even in another Crystal Sphere, one must assume some version of this exists.
An interesting question came to me after reading your statement.
First, cosmology has always been my weakest knowledge area and the area I most came to research so this may be a poor question. If so, I apologize in advance.
It is my understanding that the Phlogiston surrounds the various crystal spheres containing the different worlds in the D&D multiverse. It is also my understanding that it was supposed to be extremely combustible - ergo a potential energy source when viewed from the proper prospective.
Accordingly, is it possible to hypothesize that the Phlogiston might be the means of connecting the various versions/elements of 'The Weave' as it is known in the differing crystal spheres as suggested by your above statement?
In other words, each sphere's deity of magic draws power from the Phlogiston, 'weaving' its raw resources/energy into 'The Weave' as known by each sphere's inhabitants and thereby changing it's nature in a fundamental sense and allowing it to exist inside a spheroid. Even if the 'gas-like medium' isn't isn't the actual 'raw magical energy' as I'm asking, might it serve as a means of conduction or transport (reference SpellJammer's Flow Rivers) or contain it similar to the way salt is dissolved into ocean water?
I'd love to hear the thoughts of the scribes as it directly relates to my 'deployment project' where I was trying to find a way to combine all of the various D&D settings into one uni-multiverse.
Good Hunting! |
| 30 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| Wolfhound75 |
Posted - 05 Jan 2012 : 13:05:42
Wouldn't elemental fire take care of the heat? Pretty obvious where the water comes from.
But who's going to try it? Let's give it to Mikey! He'll try ANYTHING!
Hey! He likes it!
Now that I've sufficiently dated myself, I think I'll get on about my daily business.
Good Hunting! |
| Ayrik |
Posted - 05 Jan 2012 : 08:09:39
Just add water, heat and stir? |
| Therise |
Posted - 05 Jan 2012 : 02:10:42
Seriously, you guys.
Everyone knows that Primordial Soup is one of those nasty condensed soups made by Campbell's.
It tastes like beef bisque, and can only evolve into indigestion.
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| The Sage |
Posted - 05 Jan 2012 : 01:54:39
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Since my own proto-cosmology reasons that a sentience formed from the primal soup (I know... not original at all... its not supposed to be), then it would make sense that any of this 'soup' still existing can further generate new consciousness, almost in a similar fashion to how certain creatures can be regenerated from pieces of themselves.
In your conception, was the sentience that formed from the primordial soup simply a random occurrence, or was it caused by the impact, perhaps, of extra-dimensional forces?
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| Markustay |
Posted - 04 Jan 2012 : 23:35:39
EVERYONE contributes here, and in the world at large, I have learned you can learn amazing things from anyone. The people I usually learn the most from are people I vehemently disagree with. Some of my best (internet) arguments were with my closest friends.
You don't learn much from agreeing with people - you need to synthesize all available data.
In the immortal words of Number 5, "Input!!!!" 
I think it might be time to watch Short Circuit again. I need some classic 80's silliness ATM. |
| Wolfhound75 |
Posted - 04 Jan 2012 : 20:16:48
I can't help but grin at this.
Here I am, a mere 88 posts and I've managed to start a scroll that upset the cosmological model of some of the most learned scribes in The Realms. Not bad for simply not having a great grasp of cosmology and asking some questions to further my knowledge.
I think I deserve a tankard, or twelve, for that one! No human beer, only good Dwarven Stout if you please!
Good Hunting! |
| Markustay |
Posted - 04 Jan 2012 : 18:51:15
I like where this is going.
Since my own proto-cosmology reasons that a sentience formed from the primal soup (I know... not original at all... its not supposed to be), then it would make sense that any of this 'soup' still existing can further generate new consciousness, almost in a similar fashion to how certain creatures can be regenerated from pieces of themselves.
So new powers are constantly 'budding' from the Phlogiston, Primordial Soup/'Pure Possibility'. I think I now have a better concept of what a primordial is, as opposed to a deity. Deities are ascended mortals (ALL of them), and Primordials are "born of the Aethers" (to wax poetic). This is why Primoridials have such an alien mindset - they have no experience being mortal, so they can't even properly interact with them (usually).
Primordials - being physical manifestations of concepts themselves - have incredible power, but are sort-of 'stupid', in a child-like way (ignorant). They do not have the greater tableu of experience to draw from. Deities, on the other hand, do not have the same amount of pure primal muscle-power Primordials have, but they are cleverer, and draw their own strength from mortal worship.
So in effect, they are borrowing some of that 'concept-power' from the Primordials - leaching it off of them if you will - which is why they wind up at odds so often (in so many mythologies/cosmologies/Spheres).
I, too, will be updating my cosmological model once-again because of this thread. I think I finally hit upon the perfect line of reasoning for why deities try to usurp the positions of Primordials. One group represents the primal concepts, and the other represents the mortal belief in those concepts. This means that on worlds like Eberron, deities never rose to the fore, and Primordials (the sentient concepts themselves) still hold sway. On worlds where you can still worship both - the concepts and the gods - the final confrontation between the two hasn't happened yet.
quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
Btw, love your "Drat, it cannot be! You foiled my unstoppable plan!" - completely detailed confession at the end. I'd always thought such things were reserved for theater and Scooby Doo endings. 
More like, "And I would have gotten away with it, if it weren't for you pesky Grognards!"  |
| Wolfhound75 |
Posted - 04 Jan 2012 : 12:23:36
So we've come full circle....
quote:
Originally posted by Wolfhound75
I've got it!
It's the "God Particle" that everyone has been searching for!
Sounds like it might just be the D&D version of the "God Particle" after we've gone through this whole discussion and now add canon references that certain planes somehow naturally emerged/coalesced from the Phlogiston, or were fashioned from the phlogiston through divine will.
Gentlemen, I think with the addition of Ayrik's canon, albeit it retcon, information, we might be able to move from hypothesis to theory.
Good Hunting! |
| Ayrik |
Posted - 04 Jan 2012 : 05:07:54
Several of the retconned editions of D&D planar cosmology state outright that the planes somehow naturally emerged or coalesced from the phlogiston, or were fashioned from phlogiston through divine will. |
| The Sage |
Posted - 04 Jan 2012 : 04:48:41
quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
I'm not sure I like the sentient-phlog concept. I would think each particle of phlog is more of a proto-stuff which has the potential to form into (one) thing, anything, from infinite possibilities. It might indeed form part of a sentient construct. But the sentience is latent and unmanifest; it literally does not exist until spontaneously fashioned from the omni-possible phlogiston.
That could work just as well.
I would only imagine that mental impetus from a psion would impose a limited kind of manifest form on the potentiality of the proto-phlogiston -- only to an extent. The raw unpredictability of the original component phlogiston would still reside, and thus, cannot be tempered by mere mortal minds forever.
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| Wolfhound75 |
Posted - 04 Jan 2012 : 04:12:17
Stray thoughts is where I was going with the reading my mind comment. Maybe that's how some of the materiel planes got their starts, as stray thoughts acting on the mist of possibilities. Or perhaps a thought injected from an outside chaotic plane caused a sentient construct to spring forth from The Phlog and we know that as the elder evil, Atropus. I'll leave you to read back through the discussion and determine what plane I might be referring to but the legendary Markus Tay may know something about it.
Just a "stray thought"...kind of an anti-climatic start to such an elder evil. I like the irony.
Good Hunting! |
| Ayrik |
Posted - 04 Jan 2012 : 03:42:41
Well, now that we've caught up it's time to press forward.
I'm not sure I like the sentient-phlog concept. I would think each particle of phlog is more of a proto-stuff which has the potential to form into (one) thing, anything, from infinite possibilities. It might indeed form part of a sentient construct. But the sentience is latent and unmanifest; it literally does not exist until spontaneously fashioned from the omni-possible phlogiston. |
| Wolfhound75 |
Posted - 04 Jan 2012 : 03:32:27
Pun totally intended....
You're reading my mind!
Good Hunting! |
| The Sage |
Posted - 04 Jan 2012 : 00:17:39
quote:
Originally posted by Wolfhound75
Between you (Sage) and MT with a little help from Ayrik, you've completely stumbled on the storyline I've been working on for my entire last deployment and the six months since I've been home. You've stumbled on it right down to the elder evil at the end.
Neat.
May I say, that it sounds like an intriguing campaign. 
quote:
As a side note, for my use, I decided to treat The Phlog a "pure possibility" 'mist' that results from the annhilation of where the Astral Plane and the Ethereal Plane come in contact with each other. The Phlog, being a 'mist' comprised of unlimited possibility between 'divine' energies and 'elemental/worldly' energies and touched by Positive (energy of creation) and Negative (energy of destruction) Energy Planes, then has all the elements necessary to produce and contain the Crystal Spheres which contain the Materiel Plane(s). The spheres produced act as a reaction inhibitors which allows access from the Materiel Plane to either Astral or Ethereal Planes while inside a Crystal Sphere. It explains, for my campaign, why you can't access Astral or Ethereal (in my homebrew version it still exists - and for good reason) from The Phlog - because they are annhilating each other. So they are present, but inaccessable because of the 'reaction' between the two. Treating it this way also helps me explain the polar opposite dichotomy that, I think Ayrik mentioned earlier in the discussion, exists in what The Phlog does to individuals.
I like this conception.
Though, I'm forced to wonder what would happen should certain stray thoughts from the Astral fail to be annihilated. I suspect that would probably find their way into the Phlogiston, and perhaps act on the potentiality of the chaotic miasma.
Hmmm. Sentient Phlogiston? Couple that with my ideas for "mind"jammers, and suddenly we've got spelljamming craft navigated by powerful psions who can "will" the Phlogiston to open certain pathways, or perhaps create obstructions to halt pursuers. |
| Wolfhound75 |
Posted - 03 Jan 2012 : 22:59:12
Eh...
I was bored at work and needed some melodrama.
Good Hunting! |
| Ayrik |
Posted - 03 Jan 2012 : 20:40:02
We cheated. Sage's clandestine ESP spell and the directions we steered the discussion forced you to unknowingly reveal all! Mwoohahahaa.
[Edit]
Btw, love your "Drat, it cannot be! You foiled my unstoppable plan!" - completely detailed confession at the end. I'd always thought such things were reserved for theatre and Scooby Doo endings. |
| Wolfhound75 |
Posted - 03 Jan 2012 : 20:22:59
Bloody hell...
I didn't mean to give away my major campaign idea when I asked the original question! Between you (Sage) and MT with a little help from Ayrik, you've completely stumbled on the storyline I've been working on for my entire last deployment and the six months since I've been home. You've stumbled on it right down to the elder evil at the end.
As a side note, for my use, I decided to treat The Phlog a "pure possibility" 'mist' that results from the annhilation of where the Astral Plane and the Ethereal Plane come in contact with each other. The Phlog, being a 'mist' comprised of unlimited possibility between 'divine' energies and 'elemental/worldly' energies and touched by Positive (energy of creation) and Negative (energy of destruction) Energy Planes, then has all the elements necessary to produce and contain the Crystal Spheres which contain the Materiel Plane(s). The spheres produced act as a reaction inhibitors which allows access from the Materiel Plane to either Astral or Ethereal Planes while inside a Crystal Sphere. It explains, for my campaign, why you can't access Astral or Ethereal (in my homebrew version it still exists - and for good reason) from The Phlog - because they are annhilating each other. So they are present, but inaccessable because of the 'reaction' between the two. Treating it this way also helps me explain the polar opposite dichotomy that, I think Ayrik mentioned earlier in the discussion, exists in what The Phlog does to individuals.
Borrowing off of some of MT's ideas, it also gives me a way to place/explain the additions of Feywild and Shadowfell, as well as locate areas like The Demiplane of Dread, The Plane of Faerie, Plane of Neth, Far Realms, etc.
I'll keep working on it but it has the makings of a great story. It also doesn't mean that I won't revise my diagram with further discussion so thanks to all that have participated so far! Your thoughts, ideas, and understanding have helped me immensely.
Good Hunting! |
| The Sage |
Posted - 03 Jan 2012 : 03:14:50
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Perhaps when the soup-like energies of the phlogiston coalesce, they form a proto-Sphere?
Quite possibly.
It could be the coalescence itself which brings about the birth of a proto-Sphere... with the high concentration of primordial energy forming a singularity-like point which sparks off the creation event and bursts through with time and space into the Material Plane -- generating a bubble of potentiality as the new Crystal Sphere.
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| Markustay |
Posted - 03 Jan 2012 : 02:44:27
Perhaps when the soup-like energies of the phlogiston coalesce, they form a proto-Sphere?
And, if a Crystal Sphere is the 'body' of an Overgod itself, then perhaps this is where and how over-powers are born?
Can you imagine coming across a massive larvae in the deep phlogiston, just before it explodes into a Crystal Sphere? Or worse, coming across one of those undead god-thingies (Atropal) - maybe this is where Atropus itself resides - it is an unborn overpower residing deep in the Phlogiston. |
| The Sage |
Posted - 03 Jan 2012 : 00:48:15
quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
Careful with that, Sage. The possibility of such matter existing will translate into deities forming bodies of the stuff. Along with space barnacles and mynocks.
Interesting point.
It's actually a theory based on something I read in the 2e Guide to the Ethereal Plane. I've always liked the concept of proto-matter, and I'm curious to see how that will play with my derivative idea for the Phlogiston.
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| Ayrik |
Posted - 03 Jan 2012 : 00:42:44
Careful with that, Sage. The possibility of such matter existing will translate into deities forming bodies of the stuff. Along with space barnacles and mynocks. |
| The Sage |
Posted - 03 Jan 2012 : 00:33:36
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Outside of the Spheres, within the Phlogiston, I would think that any matter encountered had to be purposefully brought there by someone, via Spelljamming (in other words, from a Crystal Sphere). The only other possibility - and a rather intriguing one - would be that there could be matter (and other things) loose in the Phlogiston from imploded or cracked spheres. Since we know those are both rare and impossible (), that would explain why unprotected solid matter is nigh-nonexistent within the Phlogiston.
I've been tinkering with the concept of the unpredictability of the Phlogiston somehow giving birth to an entirely new form of matter that can, briefly, tolerate the environment of the Phlogiston.
It will be a derivative of something I've read elsewhere. |
| Markustay |
Posted - 02 Jan 2012 : 23:57:32
I made my last posting while running out the door, and didn't get to edit it - YEEESH, what a mess. 
Anyone who cares to can go back and re-read it; it makes more sense now - the quotey-thing was really messed up. 
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
I would imagine that 'space debri' comes from the Elemental Planes, rather then from outside of the sphere. Portals may occasionally open randomly, or beings may create such gates on purpose, but matter is then transferred into the prime from them.
It's a common planar phenomenon, so I would assume it also occurs inside the extent of crystal spheres as well. Essentially in elementally-inclined locations that, perhaps, are fed by energy/life from a particular elemental plane. A vast body of water that has a portal to the Elemental Plane of Water at it's heart would, I imagine, allow for a fair degree of planar flotsam passing from one sphere to another.
That's actually precisely what I meant - the portals can open randomly (or perhaps not so randomly), and 'stuff' falls through from 'else where', within the Crystal Spheres.
Outside of the Spheres, within the Phlogiston, I would think that any matter encountered had to be purposefully brought there by someone, via Spelljamming (in other words, from a Crystal Sphere). The only other possibility - and a rather intriguing one - would be that there could be matter (and other things) loose in the Phlogiston from imploded or cracked spheres. Since we know those are both rare and impossible (), that would explain why unprotected solid matter is nigh-nonexistent within the Phlogiston.
Or perhaps the phlogiston acts like 'anti-matter' (or dark energy), and it explodes when it comes into direct contact with unprotected (and unliving) solid matter. That kind of conflicts with canon, so maybe it is only parts of the Phlogiston that behaves this way - the parts well outside of 'the flow'. Maybe thats one of the dangers of Phlogiston-travel; there are tiny chunks of anti-matter mixed into the energy-soup, and only the known 'space lanes' are fairly clear of it. Ergo, the Phlogiston is self-sterilizing - it keeps all sorts of debri from building up. |
| TBeholder |
Posted - 02 Jan 2012 : 12:42:32
Oh, another bit: in Tymora's Luck gods observed a bunch of "cute" new crystal spheres - somehow scrying from outside without obstruction by phlog.
quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
I recall there were some rules about meteoric substances. Obviously written with the intent of preventing players from tossing lumps of metal overboard a Spelljammer then reclaiming magically potent "meteoric alloy" to forge their gear.
I can't remember such rules, but it seems to be obvious that it should be a natural wildspace stone - exposed to everything it should for at least a few centuries, etc. If someone catches a big one, then drop and collect it without creating extra complications (heh, heh) - why not?
After all (unless it's some 4 ed thing), such alloy would be just one of basic materials.
In AD&D2, where enchantment is fetch quest based (like in that Volo's Guide), it's likely to cover only one prerequisite out of half a dozen or so. |
| Ayrik |
Posted - 02 Jan 2012 : 02:26:13
As in everything else, even the most improbable possibility is certain to eventually occur. There must be an infinite number of spheres-within-spheres floating around in the phlog. |
| Gray Richardson |
Posted - 02 Jan 2012 : 02:23:24
Think of it this way: does anyone ever build a submarine within a submarine? How about a skyscraper within a skyscraper? Or a domed stadium within a domed stadium?
Crystal spheres were created by overgods for specific purposes: to nurture and shelter life. They are fantastic public works on a cosmic scale. Very costly in resources and difficult to make. (I am assuming some kind of epic spell of overgod-level magnitude.) I tend to think that an overgod would not build a crystal sphere within a crystal sphere on a whim. I don't think the creation of crystal spheres is undertaken lightly. If it were to happen there would have to be a pretty good explanation. A necessity that could not be met by any other method or work-around.
While I can't think of a reason myself, it doesn't mean there couldn't be one, but it seems highly unlikely. |
| Gray Richardson |
Posted - 02 Jan 2012 : 02:12:12
There's no record of anything like that ever. But that's not to say it couldn't happen. Under normal conditions I would say no. But if the conditions were extraordinary and interesting enough, then sure. Why not? |
| Ayrik |
Posted - 02 Jan 2012 : 01:37:11
Can a crystal sphere exist within a crystal sphere? A reality within a reality, like the layers of a plane? |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 01 Jan 2012 : 19:54:12
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
Where do "meteoric" metals that fall to the world's surface come from? Could they be crystallized phlogiston that forms on the crystal sphere surface and periodically break off?
Unlikely. If this was the case, they'd break off into the Flow, not into the sphere. And I don't recall any mentions of meteorites in the Flow.
Plus, there's the whole "phlogiston cannot exist inside a crystal sphere" angle, too.
The idea I had here was based on the idea of a physical reaction between the crystal sphere and the flow, with the idea that the crystal sphere isn't non-permeable (after all, it periodically opens pathways between it and the Phlogiston). I got the idea when reading up that the real world "phlogiston" was attributed to the creation of rust on metals. Its specifically stated that Phlogiston can't exist in the crystal sphere, so whenever these portals open, could it be that some phlogiston comes in and is crystallized into another medium. Then the portal closes and the stuff is now attached to the inside of the crystal sphere. Granted, I'm not looking for this to definitely be true... just an idea to see what might spark from it. Perhaps it doesn't make a meteoric metal, but rather its some kind of crystal with some kind of interesting uses (maybe the gathering of this crystal is what's necessary to make a spelljamming helm? Maybe the crystal has some uses in stasis spells? Maybe its got some function for fire magics? just throwing out some ideas).
Well, if phlogiston crystallized when coming into a sphere, then attempts to bottle it and bring it in would result in bottles of crystalline stuff, not empty bottles.
Ah, good point. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 01 Jan 2012 : 18:41:33
quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
I thought psijammers were canon. The silverhelms of the Githyanki? Presumably the illithids don't rely solely on lifejammers ... mental energy can be replenished whereas expending slaves as fuel means there are fewer left to eat.
Not that I recall. I don't recall the Githyanki having any presence in arcane space, and the illithids have another helm type they've developed, the pool helm. What I'm referring to is a spelljamming helm keyed specifically to psionics -- that's not something I recall seeing anywhere in Spelljammer canon. |
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