| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Sill Alias |
Posted - 08 Dec 2011 : 13:06:46
What do you think are the limits of power of this kind of spellpower? |
| 30 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| Dennis |
Posted - 15 Dec 2011 : 14:54:22
No need for Dark Magic. Whatever it accomplishes, shadow magic accomplishes as well. And we know that a few drow have been dabbling in the latter. |
| Ayrik |
Posted - 15 Dec 2011 : 08:20:33
It's been said that the secret process for making elven chain involves mithril and moonlight, imbuing it with qualities which enhance lightness, flexibility, and silvery beauty. Paralleled by the secret process for making drow chain from adamantine and faerzress, imbuing it with qualities which make it dark, stealthy, impervious, and magically potent.
This might confirm the moon as a source of elven identity (and magic). A source the drow cannot draw from. I suppose I should be glad the drow never invented what would obviously be called Dark Magic, too corny for me. |
| Kentinal |
Posted - 15 Dec 2011 : 07:00:37
The Dark Elves decided not to aid in the Sundering, it appeared they could have.
Drow clearly were denied access to the surface in any meaningful way so clearly that status of access to High Magic, a combination of Sun and Moon might have been a factor.
Of course all the details of effects of what the total effect on Drow was never detailed, nothing has been fully detailed and never can be.
Version changes and retcons only make things harder to puzzle out with clues provided. |
| Dennis |
Posted - 15 Dec 2011 : 06:15:45
quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
Perhaps Lolth forbids or undermines the use of High Magic among her followers?
Only if the goal of the ritual itself is leaning towards order. Or if she sees that it somehow presents a possibility---however remote---of usurping her godhood. She revels in chaos, but experience has taught her to be extra-careful. |
| Ayrik |
Posted - 15 Dec 2011 : 05:57:24
quote:
Kentinal
It was left unsaid but it appeared likely the dark elves (before the Descent becoming Drow) did have High Mages, they were part of the fair elves then. I though do not recall any being recorded is lore.
If that's true then I'd have to question why the drow had no access to High Magic (prior to Lady Penitent) ... particularly since they possessed sentient (and apparently cooperative) selu'kiira stones who understood and could teach High Magic.
Perhaps the ancient High Magic rituals which bound the drow to the faerzress of the Underdark somehow inhibited their high magical abilities?
Perhaps Corellon and his Seldarine controls some sort of Elf-Weave, and (through the actions of surface elves, at least) denies access to the abominable Dhaerow?
Perhaps Lolth forbids or undermines the use of High Magic among her followers? |
| Kentinal |
Posted - 15 Dec 2011 : 04:39:07
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
Do the drow have High Mages?
They didn't before the Lady Penitent trilogy. Prior to that, they were excluded from being High Mages.
It was left unsaid but it appeared likely the dark elves (before the Descent becoming Drow) did have High Mages, they were part of the fair elves then. I though do not recall any being recorded is lore. |
| Ayrik |
Posted - 15 Dec 2011 : 04:01:42
Another line of questioning might be about (pre-returned) Abeir. Without Mystra's Ban (indeed without even Mystra and the Weave) it should be possible to cast completely uncapped unrestricted "1E style" magic in Abeir, ie: spells up to at least 12th level and without any arbitrary limiters imposed on their "per level" effects/damage. Admittedly, this might not still be the case in post-Spellplague Abeir. Have those dragons developed any equivalent to High Magic in Abeir? |
| The Sage |
Posted - 15 Dec 2011 : 02:43:52
quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
Are there any known instances of Elven High Mages practicing their magic outside the Realms or Realmspace? Any High Mage spelljammers? Any in Greyhawk, Krynn, Sigil, elsewhere?
Not officially, as I can recall. Or, rather, I don't remember any instances in either DRAGONLANCE, SPELLJAMMER, or PLANESCAPE -- and I've read practically everything for these settings.
I don't know about GREYHAWK, though I'm inclined to doubt it.
|
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 15 Dec 2011 : 02:11:37
quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
Do the drow have High Mages?
They didn't before the Lady Penitent trilogy. Prior to that, they were excluded from being High Mages. |
| Ayrik |
Posted - 15 Dec 2011 : 00:59:06
Are there any known instances of Elven High Mages practicing their magic outside the Realms or Realmspace? Any High Mage spelljammers? Any in Greyhawk, Krynn, Sigil, elsewhere? If it exists nowhere else, then I'm inclined to believe High Magic must be dependant on Mystra or the Weave ... especially since elves originated on other worlds.
Do the drow have High Mages? |
| The Sage |
Posted - 14 Dec 2011 : 15:34:22
quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
Magics do exist, in Spelljammer and in other sources like Netheril, which can temporarily affect crystal spheres. Would it really be impossible to create miniature crystal sphere containers to use as phlog storage vessels?
In terms of homebrew lore -- such as that which I indicated above from spelljammer.org -- specially crafted "arcane bottles" are said to contain captured pieces of the Phlogiston for use inside a Crystal Sphere. Essentially, the arcane containers act as null-spaces within a Crystal Sphere -- thus allowing the Phlogiston to "rush into" the void and fill the space.
Otherwise, according to official lore, it's what Wooly already noted above. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 14 Dec 2011 : 10:04:19
quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
Magics do exist, in Spelljammer and in other sources like Netheril, which can temporarily affect crystal spheres. Would it really be impossible to create miniature crystal sphere containers to use as phlog storage vessels?
Most of the sphere-affecting magic was centered around openings in the sphere.
It was given as an absolute in the source material: the phlogiston could not exist within a crystal sphere. No matter what was tried, it would disappear as soon as someone entered a sphere. |
| Nicolai Withander |
Posted - 14 Dec 2011 : 09:26:02
By the way... I dont think Elven High Magic runs without the weave:
.Where Art is life, Lore is thought, and Song is beauty;
Arselu.Tel.Quess is all three in their immaculate forms yet
combined into a new, purer whole. No N.Tel.Quess can conceive
of achieving such a union with life, thought, and
beauty to weave such wonders, for only the People can touch
the Weave in this way. |
| Dennis |
Posted - 14 Dec 2011 : 07:25:06
I believe the “limit” would (ultimately) depend on two things. First, the level of the mages who will cast the ritual. Experience and power have to go hand in hand. And second, their exact goal. If the latter happens to be too ambitious and too reality-altering, it's likely that the gods of all pantheons would take interest and stop the meddling elves at all costs, especially if the said goal is anathema to the gods' existence. |
| Ayrik |
Posted - 14 Dec 2011 : 07:10:02
Magics do exist, in Spelljammer and in other sources like Netheril, which can temporarily affect crystal spheres. Would it really be impossible to create miniature crystal sphere containers to use as phlog storage vessels? |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 14 Dec 2011 : 04:42:48
Keep in mind, though, that per Spelljammer canon, the phlogiston cannot exist inside of a crystal sphere. Even if an alchemist thinks to trap some in a sealed container, as soon as he moves into a crystal sphere, he's got nothing. |
| Ayrik |
Posted - 14 Dec 2011 : 01:31:07
I can easily imagine proficient alchemists being able to break materials down into phlogiston, or to painstakingly extract trace amounts of phlogiston from them. Why not have burbling lab apparatus filled with a circulation of dangerously concentrated phlogiston, or mix phlog with rarified and exotic elements to produce all sorts of wondrous substances?
Deities are said to have transmuted phlogiston into their first creations, the crystal spheres, the worlds within them. It must be much easier for an alchemist-mage to shape phlog into his own smaller creations, especially since he's got most of the materials and power sources (and magic) components already created for him.
I would be hesitant to allow phlog to be used in the most immediately obvious applications, weaponry and explosives. This could be easily managed by making phlogiston dangerously volatile, or tremendously rare and expensive. |
| The Sage |
Posted - 14 Dec 2011 : 01:08:58
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Nicolai Withander
Well the Nether Scrolls contains information on all the magical traditions of the denizens of Fearun from around -20k DR.
But was the weave not present at that time?
Also, if Elven High Magic functions outside the weave, then there is absolutely no limit and we must perceive this to be a power close to the power of forging the essence of the universe. (The Phlogiston)
So I believe!!!
In D&D, the phlogiston is just the rather flammable space betwixt crystal spheres. It's not a source of any kind of power, unless you have an open flame.
There are non-canon options, however, presented on the Beyond the Moons website, which utilise the Phlogiston as a potential power source for groundling realms.
I'm not entirely sold on the concept myself, but I do like the idea of harnessing the Phlogiston for terrestrial initiatives. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 13 Dec 2011 : 19:07:47
quote:
Originally posted by Nicolai Withander
Well the Nether Scrolls contains information on all the magical traditions of the denizens of Fearun from around -20k DR.
But was the weave not present at that time?
Also, if Elven High Magic functions outside the weave, then there is absolutely no limit and we must perceive this to be a power close to the power of forging the essence of the universe. (The Phlogiston)
So I believe!!!
In D&D, the phlogiston is just the rather flammable space betwixt crystal spheres. It's not a source of any kind of power, unless you have an open flame. |
| Nicolai Withander |
Posted - 13 Dec 2011 : 12:21:21
Well the Nether Scrolls contains information on all the magical traditions of the denizens of Fearun from around -20k DR.
But was the weave not present at that time?
Also, if Elven High Magic functions outside the weave, then there is absolutely no limit and we must perceive this to be a power close to the power of forging the essence of the universe. (The Phlogiston)
So I believe!!!
|
| Ayrik |
Posted - 13 Dec 2011 : 09:15:31
It is only vaguely described, in much the same wording that I used above, in the Arcane Age: Netheril, Cormanthyr, Myth Drannor (2E lore) sourcebooks. This "sixth" section might be the fundamentals of High Magic, it might be some other form of magical manipulation which cannot be understood without first mastering High Magic.
I'm inclined to believe the latter, since if this section was about describing High Magic then I'd expect others (namely the Netherese archwizards, at least those who'd already mastered all five other sections) would be able to cast some version of High Magic themselves. The ambiguity of the source wording could just be setting fluff, it could simply indicate these lofty elves can see glowy lifestrands and connections in ways lowly PC mages cannot possibly comprehend. "It was said" is also a great preface for dispersing legends, fabrications, and elaborations (and planting seeds for future sourcebooks) instead of giving solid crunch, workable facts, and applicable game rules.
[Edit]
This does open up some questions, since High Magic is supposedly entirely independant of Weave-based magic. In the Arcane Age rules an Elven High Mage dedicates his memorization to one or the other at any given time, not both, since they are not directly compatible. Does this mean the Nether Scrolls contain knowledge of magic more fundamental than the Weave? Or does it mean that the High Mages are so truly gifted they can perceive meanings beyond what is written in the Scrolls? Or does it mean that the Scrolls were actually improved when transformed into a living (sentient?) format? |
| Light |
Posted - 13 Dec 2011 : 05:55:57
quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
Elven High Mages did indeed have access to Nether Scrolls for millennia. They transmuted one of the two complete sets of Nether Scrolls, the "older" one, into the living Quess'Ar'Teranthvar ("Golden Grove of Hidden Knowledge"). Studying this fantastic tree would reveal the full knowledge contained within the Nether Scrolls, although it was presented in a more intuitive and organic manner than in the original scroll-format. It was said that Elven High Mages could perceive a "sixth" section of magic previously unrevealed within the old scrolls, one which could only be seen through mastering the complex interactions of all five standard sets of Nether magic.
What is this "sixth" section of magic? High Magic? |
| Ayrik |
Posted - 12 Dec 2011 : 19:35:55
Elven High Mages did indeed have access to Nether Scrolls for millennia. They transmuted one of the two complete sets of Nether Scrolls, the "older" one, into the living Quess'Ar'Teranthvar ("Golden Grove of Hidden Knowledge"). Studying this fantastic tree would reveal the full knowledge contained within the Nether Scrolls, although it was presented in a more intuitive and organic manner than in the original scroll-format. It was said that Elven High Mages could perceive a "sixth" section of magic previously unrevealed within the old scrolls, one which could only be seen through mastering the complex interactions of all five standard sets of Nether magic. |
| Nicolai Withander |
Posted - 12 Dec 2011 : 11:11:18
As I recall reading, the Nether Scrolls, held almost an unlimited amount of arcane lore, and one could keep uncovering new information, from those scrolls. I would believe that if a High Mage had 10-15k years of life and access to these scrolls, they could discover the way to create a crystal sphere... Theoretically.
But Elven High Magic has an upper limit, but that limit is spells and effects that would be categorized as level 15 I believe.
Just some thoughts
|
| Bladewind |
Posted - 11 Dec 2011 : 20:57:03
As elven high magic is effectively epic arcane magic fueled by some divine aid I see the limits are bound to the skill of the wielder (namely their knowldege of the arcane, the planes, spellcraft and the divines). The Seldarine are both an enabling and limiting factor though; one can see them jinxing or boosting the casting of certain high magic spells through out the Realms' history.
If the Seldarine approve of the removal of a god they'd gladly aid the casting (as seen in the Lady Penitant where Kiriansalee is nixed in the casting of a high magic ritual). But when a member of the Seldarine would become jeopordised they'd smite the offending elf into oblivion for their transgression. I believe that Lord Karsus (the boardmember) once suggested that Lolth sometimes finds a way to influence the casting of major high magic rituals aswell, and has done so during the casting of the Dark Descent ritual.
I think most elves wouldn't WANT to become a god, as their fey origins give them an inherent dislike for deities that are so far disconnected from Fearie or the natural world. Perhaps a revisionist pious archpriest would want divinity and a newly designed Arvandor, seperate from Leratians place in the astral, but such a soul would be hardpressed to find support/worship amongst the Fair Folk. |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 10 Dec 2011 : 19:22:59
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I now find myself wondering if it would be possible, via High Magic, for several (like, a few hundred, at least) High Mages to combine and form a new deity...
Quite possibly. I mean, we can consider the High Magic ritual that returns Rhymanthiin as an example of a potential upper limit to the ancient arcane practice.
Now, couple that with what Steven Schend once said about there being quite a few High Mages who had 15 millennia to think on High Magic and what things to do with it... and some very intriguing possibilities suggest themselves.
The deity of vampires (Kanchelsis) is hinted at having elvish lineage. Who knows, maybe he was using high magic involving blood and something went very wrong. |
| Ayrik |
Posted - 10 Dec 2011 : 06:58:26
The 2E Tome of Magic introduced a Quest spell (something like divine "high magic") which, when simultaneously cast by seven extraordinarily high level and perfectly faithful priests, would transform them all into an avatar of their deity. The priests just became vessels to the deity's wishes; it could simply go away in annoyance (and punish them severely for their impudence), or hang around to accomplish whatever goals it chose, it could destroy them on a whim or it could persist indefinitely until their mortal frames were burned to husks from overexposure to pure divinity. Not a spell to be cast lightly. |
| Sill Alias |
Posted - 10 Dec 2011 : 06:30:18
Elven psychology in my opinion will not approve of creation of new deity via High Magic. I wondered about this when I thought about one notion.
Dark elves got their place in elven society and were given access to High Magic. Let's speak hypothetically that they increased their population and perfected it to the same degree as other mages. Would they try to return their most favored patron, Eilistraee? I thought about it, maybe it can be made possible with her being lesser deity? |
| Eladrinstar |
Posted - 09 Dec 2011 : 06:55:07
It's quite possible the Seldarine are ascended mortals. After all, we know the Elves came from Faerie, but we don't know their history on that plane. The novel Evermeet suggest Elven history goes back for aeons on that plane. |
| Dennis |
Posted - 09 Dec 2011 : 05:15:18
quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
quote:
Wooly Rupert
I now find myself wondering if it would be possible, via High Magic, for several (like, a few hundred, at least) High Mages to combine and form a new deity...
Elven High Mages would never dare to do anything of the sort. It's utterly unimaginable and incompatible with their Jedi philosophy, it's the sort of thing those gauche little human magelings would attempt.
To every rule, there is always an exception. Every ideal has its flaws. Every group (as often the case), has its black sheep. To say that all elves think and believe the same is...well, incorrect. |
