| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Artemas Entreri |
Posted - 19 Oct 2011 : 16:41:37
How do you prefer the use of magic in your fantasy novels? There is a huge range of fantasy series and stand alone books out there. All of which handle the use of magic in different ways. How do you prefer it? |
| 30 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| TBeholder |
Posted - 03 Jan 2012 : 19:03:30
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
What I meant with "overuse" is that it solves practically everything, taking away the mystery and fun that the story should exude.
I don't see how "taking away the mystery" could become an in-universe consideration or why more magic would take away fun even out of it. There are a lot of very high-magical settings, D&D-ized and not, that are fun, just like there's a lot of "mostly mundane" fun settings. And sometimes it's more fun because the greater power level can enforce faster pacing and the characters don't have to dig their way for months around every trivial problem.
The main quality issue is whether the described setting is a coherent whole or a bunch of floating islands without any rhyme or reason other than forming platformer puzzles (Xen). What is made of is secondary at most.
quote:
Originally posted by Wolfhound75
Not every caster wants to adventure and run the risk of being disolved by a slime or turned into minced meat by a trap. Some of them are perfectly content in a snug house and warm bed every night which means they just won't progress as far as more active casters (read as not gain experience points in the game mechanic).
Yep, that's my problem with D&D3: wizards get experience by running around baiting giant fish, but not more related practice and studying. |
| Wolfhound75 |
Posted - 03 Jan 2012 : 18:23:50
I voted for Balanced - with a caveat.
The Realms are certainly considered Magic-rich in comparison to some settings. However, in comparison to others, Eberron for example, The Realms might appear as less so.
I think overall, The Realms exhibit a great balance between Magic-sparse areas, such as various Barbarian tribes or small villages, and Magic-rich areas such as many of the aforementioned examples.
When running my realms, I take the following view. While many people might be able to learn some rudimentary magic, and some actually do, very few will be able to master the higher level stuff. Accordingly, you might find "Utility Casters" or "Niche-mages" serving in a variety of mundane-arcane rolls in the right type of area. A perfect example cited earlier was a mage moving cargo onto or off of a merchant vessel by use of conjurations or a Druid tending to the fields in a rural area to keep them from expanding into his forest. But, finding a mage or cleric capable of casting the more awe-inspiring spells is more difficult. Not every caster wants to adventure and run the risk of being disolved by a slime or turned into minced meat by a trap. Some of them are perfectly content in a snug house and warm bed every night which means they just won't progress as far as more active casters (read as not gain experience points in the game mechanic).
I apply this thought to magic items as well. Perhaps a well-known arms dealer wishes to give his business the edge by supplying something his competitors cannot; enchanted weapons. Lower level enchantments such as a simple +1 wouldn't be too rare or hard to come by - especially given the nature of many of the nasties running about The Realms these days. However, high level enchantments can be very few and far between making them particularly prized items. The same goes for multiple enchantments on a single item. One fairly common or useful low-level enchantment wouldn't be too rare but multiple or high level enchantments would be considerably more diffucult to find; usually resulting from a specific request and (at one time) having an owner who apparently had an untimely demise at the hands of some nefarious nasty.
Good Hunting! |
| BARDOBARBAROS |
Posted - 03 Jan 2012 : 07:43:36
Extremely rare to sparse and even run FR that way.
|
| Dennis |
Posted - 01 Jan 2012 : 06:04:38
quote:
Originally posted by TBeholder
There's no reason why it won't run the whole range from "none" to "as much as they can, whether it's sensible or not".
Some should have overuse magic unless they're very careful - and in FR canon magocracies and highly magical societies (drow with structural repair, surface elves with extradimensional pockets) do routinely overuse. Some others can be shy or superstitious - again, canon got some magic-fearing chaps like Uthgardt barbarians. It would be more strange if this was otherwise.
What I meant with "overuse" is that it solves practically everything, taking away the mystery and fun that the story should exude. |
| Eladrinstar |
Posted - 31 Dec 2011 : 19:02:37
It depends on the magic system and what magic can do. Magic is a pretty big deal in the Lord of the Rings, and so it's rare there.
Meanwhile, magic in D&D is so versatile and relatively easy to use (you apparently just need the right ability scores and class levels) that it's ludicrous that there would not be at least one spellcaster in every village, and indeed the Realmslore reflects that. People aren't going to not use something as powerful as magic because of some handwavy nonsense that ultimately comes from real world historical "magic-users" being shy with their magic because they can't actually do it.
Edit: Also, reading the FRCS yesterday I stumbled on a tidbit that people forget. When drawing up random demographics, sorcerers are 1d6 and wizards 1d8, instead of the usual 1d4 listed for both classes in the DMG guide. I think it's pretty clear that despite magic in Faerun not going the way they use it in Khorvaire (do not interpret this as a snippy comment against Eberron), it's still a very heavy magic setting. |
| TBeholder |
Posted - 31 Dec 2011 : 18:00:06
There's no reason why it won't run the whole range from "none" to "as much as they can, whether it's sensible or not".
Some should have overuse magic unless they're very careful - and in FR canon magocracies and highly magical societies (drow with structural repair, surface elves with extradimensional pockets) do routinely overuse. Some others can be shy or superstitious - again, canon got some magic-fearing chaps like Uthgardt barbarians. It would be more strange if this was otherwise. |
| Dennis |
Posted - 31 Dec 2011 : 14:21:18
quote:
Originally posted by Aulduron
It all depends on how well it's written. I love the WoT, with relatively few chanellers, and I love the epic spell battles of FR, as long as they're well written.
I'm inclined to agree...or sort of... While I like the magic system of the Forgotten Realms as it is today, any "overuse" of magic in the novels would definitely make me drop the book. Just like in some Magic: The Gathering novels. |
| Aulduron |
Posted - 30 Dec 2011 : 22:45:03
It all depends on how well it's written. I love the WoT, with relatively few chanellers, and I love the epic spell battles of FR, as long as they're well written. |
| Thauranil |
Posted - 30 Dec 2011 : 10:19:24
Its always better to have to much magic than to Little in my opinion. |
| Therise |
Posted - 31 Oct 2011 : 15:54:01
quote:
To answer Therise, yes, although 'corrupt' does not necessarily imply 'evil' (although already-evil sorcerers tend to defend against, deal with, or ignore corruption much more easily).
Considering some of the truly amazing (or horrifying) things Hyborean magic is capable of, however, it's usually worth it.
All characters in the MMO, for example, start out with a brand called the 'Mark of Acheron' - they were once intended to be part of a brain-fried slave army under the control of the Stygian sorcerer Thoth-Amon. While the Acheronian spirit suppressing one's own consciousness is now gone when you start the game, the Mark remains, and one of the big storylines is getting rid of it, and this is made possible only through Atlantean magic (the diametric opposite of the ancient Acheronian sorcery used by the Stygian archmagi).
In my opinion, that's a pretty hefty helping of mojo. Summon spirit, force spirit into (usually unwilling) host, brand host, seal spirit inside host, send spirit/host servitor out to do your bidding in perpetuity. Yeah...I could handle being able to do that. 
Then they've dramatically made the MMO game different (less severe corruption effects) than the Conan d20 game. That's interesting, although it somewhat waters down the evil side of magic and drifts somewhat from traditional Conan themes.
In Conan d20 tabletop and the novels, although "good" is a nebulous concept and good gods might be inventions of the priesthood (or they might be real), "evil" is definitely a real, concrete thing with a capital E. Demons and the like are classic evils in Conan.
When casting evil-oriented spells, or when affected by curses and the like, you roll to avoid "corruption" (which can build up, the more evil magic you do). At a certain point, high levels of corruption lead to minor insanities, then major insanities, and finally possession by a demonic entity (at which point you are taken over by the GM). It alters your outlook and tendencies as well, where you slowly begin to seek out more evil. So corruption really isn't a cool thing, nor do most higher level characters (if you want to keep playing) seek it out. So yeah, big difference: evil is real, and it's really bad for you in the novels and in the Conan d20 tabletop.
I understand the reason why they would avoid this in the MMO, but it really alters some major themes in the Conan-verse. It would be like playing the Cthulhu game and not being overcome by insanity when you do or see "too much" of the bad stuff.
|
| Dennis |
Posted - 31 Oct 2011 : 01:23:18
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Being 'flashy' gets you dead.
Not necessarily. Some lowly wizards do it to instill fear to common folk so that they would leave him alone. See the Edolas Arc of Fairy Tail, where the Cat-Queen did just that. |
| Markustay |
Posted - 30 Oct 2011 : 17:37:27
I was just thinking about Halruaa again this morning, and I was thinking that borrowing heavily from the Eberron setting would work well for that nation. If I were to ever run the Realms again, and more specifically, Halruaa, I would probably just adopt all the guild-stuff wholesale (with tweaking, of course - the Dragonmarks would change to tatoos, etc). Lightning-rails, skyships, tons of utility magic - its just a really good fit for the place.
I don't mind potent (epic) magic, so long as it's a single event pivotal to the story. Having some Red Wizard standing on street corner and yelling "Dread Rings! Get yer Dread Rings here!" just isn't my cup of tea. I haven't read that series, but I would say it was done 'correctly' (IMO). The Sojourner, on the other hand, was just too over-the-top for me (loved that series by-the-way, despite the uber-munchkin villain, which tells you just how talented Paul Kemp is).
Witches are powerful (more so then common folk), Fiends are powerful, Vampires are powerful... yet in folklore all fly under-the-radar. This is how it should be - people fear what they do not understand, and it doesn't really matter how powerful a creature is when it is out-numbered a thousand to one. In one of Ed's novels a War-Wizard gets stoned (the old-fashioned way  ) by a crowd, and he's severely injured. All his power was useless when the crowd turned on him (albeit, unexpectedly). That's why in most fantasy, Wizards may be 'known', but they avoid direct confrontation as much as possible. Human beings tend to ignore that which doesn't directly effect them. Being 'flashy' gets you dead.
Also, it is just plain stupid (and Mages are known for their intelligence) to let everyone know what you are capable of - the old adage (and Sun-Tzu teaching) of "Know thy Enemy" is there for a reason. Only a fool gives away his hand. So, even if your world is magic-rich, it still makes more sense for most Mages to operate discreetly... IMHO, of course. |
| perm |
Posted - 30 Oct 2011 : 09:59:06
the realms would be sparse/even in most places, except thay or halruua. So I like it sparse in most places |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 29 Oct 2011 : 19:49:07
quote:
Originally posted by Old Man Harpell
quote:
Originally posted by Therise
quote:
Originally posted by entreri3478
quote:
Originally posted by Therise
quote:
Originally posted by Old Man Harpell
Some of the best treatment of magic comes from Robert E. Howard in his Conan and Kull series. Spellcasters are known, feared, respected, and often reviled. They rarely cast great magics where anyone can see them, but when they do cast them, few people are unaware of it. This has spun off into the Age of Conan MMO, where the number of spellcasters, though far exceeding what would actually be found in Hyborea, are specialized and capable of casting some truly shocking spells.
If I recall correctly, don't spellcasters in Conan constantly have to worry about corruption toward evil? I've not seen the MMO, but I think that was a problem in the tabletop RPG. To me, that's a pretty big negative.
What's wrong with being evil?? 
You usually get killed by the local barbarian. 
To answer Therise, yes, although 'corrupt' does not necessarily imply 'evil' (although already-evil sorcerers tend to defend against, deal with, or ignore corruption much more easily).
Considering some of the truly amazing (or horrifying) things Hyborean magic is capable of, however, it's usually worth it.
All characters in the MMO, for example, start out with a brand called the 'Mark of Acheron' - they were once intended to be part of a brain-fried slave army under the control of the Stygian sorcerer Thoth-Amon. While the Acheronian spirit suppressing one's own consciousness is now gone when you start the game, the Mark remains, and one of the big storylines is getting rid of it, and this is made possible only through Atlantean magic (the diametric opposite of the ancient Acheronian sorcery used by the Stygian archmagi).
In my opinion, that's a pretty hefty helping of mojo. Summon spirit, force spirit into (usually unwilling) host, brand host, seal spirit inside host, send spirit/host servitor out to do your bidding in perpetuity. Yeah...I could handle being able to do that.
I remember trying out Age of Conan about 4 years back, but I only got to level 20 before getting bored with my spellcaster because it seems like all my casting was like 3 buttons. Did it get much more complex once you got to the upper levels? I'm "into" everquest 2 where they give a lot of flexibility with your toon (or they did, they seem to be dumbing it down a whole lot lately, and I must admit to not having logged on much the past 6 months). |
| The Sage |
Posted - 29 Oct 2011 : 15:14:09
quote:
Originally posted by entreri3478
quote:
Originally posted by Joran Nobleheart
I went with 'even', though I agree with Wooly that it depends on the setting. For example, Ravenloft is a low-magic setting, making each piece found one with a background, story, rich history, and a much more valuable find than the standard magic item of other settings. A player of mine in the Domain of Dread finally found a pistol with his character that had magic about it, and it's become a favorite item that he cherishes, especially after hearing the story I crafted for that piece. And on a side note, I'd like to add that 'Possessions' loses out over 'Signature Items' as they are called in Ravenloft.
Ravenloft is not as magic-rich as the Realms, but i would never say that it is a low-magic setting. Afterall, we are talking about a place where the magical mists can grab anyone at anytime out of any other world and transplant them into the Domains of Dread 
The original interpretations of RAVENLOFT, and much of its supportive 2e material, portrayed it as such. But the 3e setting published by White Wolf, introduced some rather magic-heavy elements. Not enough to warrant calling it "magic-rich," but it was certainly more inclined toward a pervasive sense of magic than was previously known. |
| Artemas Entreri |
Posted - 29 Oct 2011 : 14:51:54
quote:
Originally posted by Joran Nobleheart
I went with 'even', though I agree with Wooly that it depends on the setting. For example, Ravenloft is a low-magic setting, making each piece found one with a background, story, rich history, and a much more valuable find than the standard magic item of other settings. A player of mine in the Domain of Dread finally found a pistol with his character that had magic about it, and it's become a favorite item that he cherishes, especially after hearing the story I crafted for that piece. And on a side note, I'd like to add that 'Possessions' loses out over 'Signature Items' as they are called in Ravenloft.
Ravenloft is not as magic-rich as the Realms, but i would never say that it is a low-magic setting. Afterall, we are talking about a place where the magical mists can grab anyone at anytime out of any other world and transplant them into the Domains of Dread |
| Joran Nobleheart |
Posted - 29 Oct 2011 : 08:51:08
I went with 'even', though I agree with Wooly that it depends on the setting. For example, Ravenloft is a low-magic setting, making each piece found one with a background, story, rich history, and a much more valuable find than the standard magic item of other settings. A player of mine in the Domain of Dread finally found a pistol with his character that had magic about it, and it's become a favorite item that he cherishes, especially after hearing the story I crafted for that piece. And on a side note, I'd like to add that 'Possessions' loses out over 'Signature Items' as they are called in Ravenloft. |
| Old Man Harpell |
Posted - 29 Oct 2011 : 07:27:11
quote:
Originally posted by Therise
quote:
Originally posted by entreri3478
quote:
Originally posted by Therise
quote:
Originally posted by Old Man Harpell
Some of the best treatment of magic comes from Robert E. Howard in his Conan and Kull series. Spellcasters are known, feared, respected, and often reviled. They rarely cast great magics where anyone can see them, but when they do cast them, few people are unaware of it. This has spun off into the Age of Conan MMO, where the number of spellcasters, though far exceeding what would actually be found in Hyborea, are specialized and capable of casting some truly shocking spells.
If I recall correctly, don't spellcasters in Conan constantly have to worry about corruption toward evil? I've not seen the MMO, but I think that was a problem in the tabletop RPG. To me, that's a pretty big negative.
What's wrong with being evil??
You usually get killed by the local barbarian.
To answer Therise, yes, although 'corrupt' does not necessarily imply 'evil' (although already-evil sorcerers tend to defend against, deal with, or ignore corruption much more easily).
Considering some of the truly amazing (or horrifying) things Hyborean magic is capable of, however, it's usually worth it.
All characters in the MMO, for example, start out with a brand called the 'Mark of Acheron' - they were once intended to be part of a brain-fried slave army under the control of the Stygian sorcerer Thoth-Amon. While the Acheronian spirit suppressing one's own consciousness is now gone when you start the game, the Mark remains, and one of the big storylines is getting rid of it, and this is made possible only through Atlantean magic (the diametric opposite of the ancient Acheronian sorcery used by the Stygian archmagi).
In my opinion, that's a pretty hefty helping of mojo. Summon spirit, force spirit into (usually unwilling) host, brand host, seal spirit inside host, send spirit/host servitor out to do your bidding in perpetuity. Yeah...I could handle being able to do that. |
| Alystra Illianniis |
Posted - 26 Oct 2011 : 23:40:49
I'm voting for "saturated", though I think I prefer the term "heavy magic". To me, magic is much like tech in the RW- once it is understood, even by a few, someone will figure out a way to profit from it and make it available to others for utilitarian purposes, even if only to make a fortune, if not for the "greater good". Naturally, that would lead to a lot of magical innovations over time. Magical equivalents of escalators, TV, cell phones, fax machines (one was created in Krynn, I believe, by a gnomish inventor who worked for the Chronicler, and was in use by a kender field "reporter"...) and the like seem like natural extensions of a world with high magic. |
| Artemas Entreri |
Posted - 26 Oct 2011 : 20:22:51
quote:
Originally posted by Therise
quote:
Originally posted by Varl
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
I like the way it worked in that setting, but I don't think I would want everyone having magic in every setting. On the flipside, for some strange reason, whenever I picture Halruaa (pre-spellpuke) I think of Xanth (because nearly all native Halruaans had some magic).
I play 2e Realms, so Halruaa is still there, alive and magically well. I've always liked the idea of Halruaa anyway, where magic is commonplace, but not in everyone's hands, in a sort of 'magic convenience' way. Magical globe lamplights at night, unseen servants opening doors at the approach of shop patrons, cleaning golems, and magical lifts in inns that lift you to your floor instead of having to climb stairs.
Halruaa also allows me to have a location in my Realms where magic is commonplace enough that it can be much less so everywhere else.
I loved that about Halruaa, as it made their realm a unique place for PCs to visit. An actually friendly realm, at least not an evil or corrupted realm, where magic was used to improve the lives of everyday citizens. It was different, really different, and yet there were still plenty of opportunities for adventure.
Frankly, if it is necessary to accept 4E Realms along the way to getting a repair in 5E, I'd hope at least one day that we learn Mystra saved Halruaa in a similar way to Shar "saving" the city of Shade.
Halruaa was always a fun place to visit. I got stuck with a DM for a year or so who only wanted to adventure in Cormyr or the Dalelands. It got a little dry there for awhile |
| Therise |
Posted - 26 Oct 2011 : 19:32:46
quote:
Originally posted by Varl
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
I like the way it worked in that setting, but I don't think I would want everyone having magic in every setting. On the flipside, for some strange reason, whenever I picture Halruaa (pre-spellpuke) I think of Xanth (because nearly all native Halruaans had some magic).
I play 2e Realms, so Halruaa is still there, alive and magically well. I've always liked the idea of Halruaa anyway, where magic is commonplace, but not in everyone's hands, in a sort of 'magic convenience' way. Magical globe lamplights at night, unseen servants opening doors at the approach of shop patrons, cleaning golems, and magical lifts in inns that lift you to your floor instead of having to climb stairs.
Halruaa also allows me to have a location in my Realms where magic is commonplace enough that it can be much less so everywhere else.
I loved that about Halruaa, as it made their realm a unique place for PCs to visit. An actually friendly realm, at least not an evil or corrupted realm, where magic was used to improve the lives of everyday citizens. It was different, really different, and yet there were still plenty of opportunities for adventure.
Frankly, if it is necessary to accept 4E Realms along the way to getting a repair in 5E, I'd hope at least one day that we learn Mystra saved Halruaa in a similar way to Shar "saving" the city of Shade.
|
| Varl |
Posted - 26 Oct 2011 : 19:11:26
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
I like the way it worked in that setting, but I don't think I would want everyone having magic in every setting. On the flipside, for some strange reason, whenever I picture Halruaa (pre-spellpuke) I think of Xanth (because nearly all native Halruaans had some magic).
I play 2e Realms, so Halruaa is still there, alive and magically well. I've always liked the idea of Halruaa anyway, where magic is commonplace, but not in everyone's hands, in a sort of 'magic convenience' way. Magical globe lamplights at night, unseen servants opening doors at the approach of shop patrons, cleaning golems, and magical lifts in inns that lift you to your floor instead of having to climb stairs.
Halruaa also allows me to have a location in my Realms where magic is commonplace enough that it can be much less so everywhere else. |
| Therise |
Posted - 26 Oct 2011 : 17:21:36
quote:
Originally posted by entreri3478
quote:
Originally posted by Therise
quote:
Originally posted by Old Man Harpell
Some of the best treatment of magic comes from Robert E. Howard in his Conan and Kull series. Spellcasters are known, feared, respected, and often reviled. They rarely cast great magics where anyone can see them, but when they do cast them, few people are unaware of it. This has spun off into the Age of Conan MMO, where the number of spellcasters, though far exceeding what would actually be found in Hyborea, are specialized and capable of casting some truly shocking spells.
If I recall correctly, don't spellcasters in Conan constantly have to worry about corruption toward evil? I've not seen the MMO, but I think that was a problem in the tabletop RPG. To me, that's a pretty big negative.
What's wrong with being evil??
You usually get killed by the local barbarian.
|
| Artemas Entreri |
Posted - 26 Oct 2011 : 17:09:01
quote:
Originally posted by Therise
quote:
Originally posted by Old Man Harpell
Some of the best treatment of magic comes from Robert E. Howard in his Conan and Kull series. Spellcasters are known, feared, respected, and often reviled. They rarely cast great magics where anyone can see them, but when they do cast them, few people are unaware of it. This has spun off into the Age of Conan MMO, where the number of spellcasters, though far exceeding what would actually be found in Hyborea, are specialized and capable of casting some truly shocking spells.
If I recall correctly, don't spellcasters in Conan constantly have to worry about corruption toward evil? I've not seen the MMO, but I think that was a problem in the tabletop RPG. To me, that's a pretty big negative.
What's wrong with being evil?? |
| Therise |
Posted - 26 Oct 2011 : 16:56:49
quote:
Originally posted by Old Man Harpell
Some of the best treatment of magic comes from Robert E. Howard in his Conan and Kull series. Spellcasters are known, feared, respected, and often reviled. They rarely cast great magics where anyone can see them, but when they do cast them, few people are unaware of it. This has spun off into the Age of Conan MMO, where the number of spellcasters, though far exceeding what would actually be found in Hyborea, are specialized and capable of casting some truly shocking spells.
If I recall correctly, don't spellcasters in Conan constantly have to worry about corruption toward evil? I've not seen the MMO, but I think that was a problem in the tabletop RPG. To me, that's a pretty big negative. |
| Artemas Entreri |
Posted - 26 Oct 2011 : 13:35:35
quote:
Originally posted by Old Man Harpell
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Although if any group came close to the zaniness of Xanth, it would have to be The Harpells.
Harumph. 'Zany', indeed.
Magic is best, I think, when it is preciously rare, yet can be insanely powerful.
One of the best treatments, D&D-wise, was how they did it in Birthright. You have a fair number of arcane spellcasters, but only a tiny minority of them are actual wizards. This was Second Edition, so sorcerers had not yet come upon the TSR scene.
The actual wizards (and actual spellcasting priests) were gifted with the blood of the old gods who died at the battle of Mount Diesmaar, and were thus able to perform feats of magic beyond the ability of mere mortals (such blood also gives heroes of all classes unique abilities, but that is another tale). For those without divine blood (which does not make them divine, necessarily), they are known as 'magicians'.
Magicians cast first and second level spells normally, and they can be any kind of spell. Third level spells and higher are limited to only the schools of Divination and Illusion. There are many, many more magicians than true (blooded) wizards, needless to say. Only elves and half-elves can become true wizards without the benefit of deific bloodlines. True wizards among non-elves are as numerous as billionaires in the United States - someone somewhere has heard of them, and they almost always have power and influence far beyond what their level would afford them in other worlds, like the Realms, Krynn, Greyhawk, and so forth. In other words, very rare indeed.
Some of the best treatment of magic comes from Robert E. Howard in his Conan and Kull series. Spellcasters are known, feared, respected, and often reviled. They rarely cast great magics where anyone can see them, but when they do cast them, few people are unaware of it. This has spun off into the Age of Conan MMO, where the number of spellcasters, though far exceeding what would actually be found in Hyborea, are specialized and capable of casting some truly shocking spells.
I always did enjoy the Birthright novels, War was great! |
| Old Man Harpell |
Posted - 26 Oct 2011 : 13:33:33
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Although if any group came close to the zaniness of Xanth, it would have to be The Harpells.
Harumph. 'Zany', indeed.
Magic is best, I think, when it is preciously rare, yet can be insanely powerful.
One of the best treatments, D&D-wise, was how they did it in Birthright. You have a fair number of arcane spellcasters, but only a tiny minority of them are actual wizards. This was Second Edition, so sorcerers had not yet come upon the TSR scene.
The actual wizards (and actual spellcasting priests) were gifted with the blood of the old gods who died at the battle of Mount Diesmaar, and were thus able to perform feats of magic beyond the ability of mere mortals (such blood also gives heroes of all classes unique abilities, but that is another tale). For those without divine blood (which does not make them divine, necessarily), they are known as 'magicians'.
Magicians cast first and second level spells normally, and they can be any kind of spell. Third level spells and higher are limited to only the schools of Divination and Illusion. There are many, many more magicians than true (blooded) wizards, needless to say. Only elves and half-elves can become true wizards without the benefit of deific bloodlines. True wizards among non-elves are as numerous as billionaires in the United States - someone somewhere has heard of them, and they almost always have power and influence far beyond what their level would afford them in other worlds, like the Realms, Krynn, Greyhawk, and so forth. In other words, very rare indeed.
Some of the best treatment of magic comes from Robert E. Howard in his Conan and Kull series. Spellcasters are known, feared, respected, and often reviled. They rarely cast great magics where anyone can see them, but when they do cast them, few people are unaware of it. This has spun off into the Age of Conan MMO, where the number of spellcasters, though far exceeding what would actually be found in Hyborea, are specialized and capable of casting some truly shocking spells. |
| Markustay |
Posted - 25 Oct 2011 : 20:09:16
The problem arises with our preconceptions.
For instance, in the Xanth novels, EVERYONE does magic... but everyone can only cast ONE spell, and no two people ever had the same exact magic.
Depending on the spell/magic the person can wield is what qualifies him as a Wizard-class magic user. Much of the magic was near-useless, while the majority was utility-class stuff. Only rare individuals had an ability that was earth-shattering.
So, is that scarce, or saturated? It could be either, depending on what you like.
I like the way it worked in that setting, but I don't think I would want everyone having magic in every setting. On the flipside, for some strange reason, whenever I picture Halruaa (pre-spellpuke) I think of Xanth (because nearly all native Halruaans had some magic).
Although if any group came close to the zaniness of Xanth, it would have to be The Harpells. |
| Dennis |
Posted - 25 Oct 2011 : 19:38:48
My ideal fantasy setting: magic is available to all, but only few are qualified to be called true masters of it. [There are many Netherese mages, but very few archwizards.] |
| Artemas Entreri |
Posted - 25 Oct 2011 : 19:36:09
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
See? Now I think many more of us would agree, if we all had the same exact concept of the choices.
I like what Arcanus said above, but I would classify that as 'scarce'.
I want the world itself to be magical, but have that magic out of the reach of most mortals. I prefer the traditions to be based in non-humans, and very hard for humans to learn.
The equalizer to that (in my own preferences) would be that those 'old races' themselves are now scarce.
So I suppose it isn't the shear amount of magic I have issue with (I love the way Toril is set-up, with it's Weave), but rather, the availability of it.
Agreed. For me magic loses it's luster when everyone can either cast spells or carry around 30 pounds of magical equipment. Jarlaxle for example: I love his character, but it is ridiculous how many magical items he has. |
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