| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Dennis |
Posted - 29 Apr 2011 : 12:04:57
Those few remaining moments before a character dies are often so important to us. They either move us, making the novel one of our most unforgettable, or they make us regret we bother to pick up the book. Some deaths make sense, while some don’t . . . Which deaths do you think are handled well, and which are not? (Please exclude Mystra’s. I’m afraid it might once again spark a heated debate.)
My list will change as I try to recall others. These are what I remember at the moment:
Handled well:
1. Brennus’s mother in Continuum. It was short, but the intensity with which Paul wrote it is so palpable.
2. Telemachon’s in The Shadow Stone. I like the inevitability of it.
3. Yaphyll’s in The Haunted Lands. Quite understandable. Despite her powers, I don’t think she stood a chance against the Blue Fire’s effects.
4. Madryoch’s in The Shadow Stone. That is, if he really died in that explosion. At the third quarter of the book I began to like Aeron, but, despite how “advanced” he had become as a shadow mage, I woud have found it impossible that he’d “directly” killed a four thousand-year old Imaskari archmage. Thankfully, the Stone’s explosion did it for him.
5. Karsus’s in Dangerous Games. The greatest lesson for wizards.
Not handled well:
1 .Fineghal Caillaen’s in The Shadow Stone. I understand the effects of the Shadow Stone corrupted the Weave’s presence in Chessanta, and so spellcasters who were dependent on the Weave were at a disadvantage. But he’s an archmage and lived far too long. Surely, he deserved a noble death—not a few stabs from common thugs.
2. Dmitra’s in Undead. I still couldn’t understand how a monk—who didn’t know magic at that time—managed to break the most powerful spell of an accomplished illusionist. |
| 30 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| Dennis |
Posted - 22 Apr 2013 : 02:36:50
Hmm. I have to admit, at some point during my rereads, I thought the romantic subplot of Tammith and Bareris was an unwelcome distraction . . . |
| Entromancer |
Posted - 21 Apr 2013 : 22:25:59
Bareris and Tammith in The Haunted Lands. Their relationship was well-done and the end was fittingly abrupt. |
| Aryalómë |
Posted - 21 Apr 2013 : 15:13:08
In my opinion, too many main characters get killed in FR novels. It gets extremely annoying, especially when you get attached to a character. |
| Dennis |
Posted - 19 May 2011 : 06:39:38
If he remains a mane, he wouldn't survive even for an hour in hell. That's exactly the reason Tam transformed him into such.
quote:
Originally posted by Azuth
From everything I've read, Mystra and the Weave are the source of all magic for the deities.
If so, all the deities should have been left virtually powerless during the Spellplague. Yet we've seen Bane pretty much in hale condition in Undead, [just moments after both the Weave and the Shadow Weave were shattered.] |
| Xar Zarath |
Posted - 13 May 2011 : 08:45:03
Agreed. Though Richard said he might have survived, as well as those that are only "assumed" dead. In the first place, we haven't seen Nevron [The Mane] being torn apart by more powerful demons in hell. He might have countered Tam's spell the moment he set foot in hell.
While id like to believe that, maybe the more logical conclusion is that he is a mane but to make it more interesting he retains his memory. Now that i would like a novel made |
| Lord Karsus |
Posted - 13 May 2011 : 06:25:21
quote:
Originally posted by Azuth
I am aware it's a typo, but just for those who don't Mystra was Mystryl's successor, not predecessor. A great discussion, regardless. And it should be noted that Mystra banned mortals from the requisite magic to ever create this situation again.
-Yes, that word.
-As for the spell being castable again, I'd posit that it very well could be. Many 10+ Level spells were "remade" as Epic Spells. In theory, Karsus' Avatar could. Given the fact that it took the great mage the better part of many, many years to develop the spell, and the methods of the spells creation have since been lost to the sands of time, the odds of some enterprising magician "converting" Karsus' Avatar into Epic form is infinitesimally small, but possible, in theory. |
| Dennis |
Posted - 13 May 2011 : 06:23:36
quote:
Originally posted by Xar Zarath
Nevron at the end of unholy, seriously did not want him to go.
Agreed. Though Richard said he might have survived, as well as those that are only "assumed" dead. In the first place, we haven't seen Nevron [The Mane] being torn apart by more powerful demons in hell. He might have countered Tam's spell the moment he set foot in hell. |
| Xar Zarath |
Posted - 13 May 2011 : 06:18:07
Nevron at the end of unholy, seriously did not want him to go. |
| Azuth |
Posted - 13 May 2011 : 01:27:01
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
quote:
Originally posted by Azuth
If Mystra could cut off Cyric's connection to the Weave with a thought, it just seems odd to me that she wouldn't do so while being attacked.
That's why it was called a surprise attack. You could instead apply that reasoning to Mystryl. Instead of destroying an entire empire that she should have favored for being highly magical, she could have simply cut Karsus's access ---and his alone---to the Weave. If she could do that to gods, why not to a mere mortal? And while Karsus's attack can be considered a surprise [sort of], she still had ample time to block Karsus's access to the Weave, thanks to the phaerimm who directly attacked the said archwizard as he tried to ascend.
Again, this implies that Cyric's attack was so powerful, so cunning, and so clever that in instantly destroyed Mystra and all of her avatars and other presences. While Cyric may be the Lord of Murder, he wasn't insane any longer, and killing Mystra should either have cut off all magic to all dieties (depriving Cyric of something he treasured very much - Godhood) and had a repeat of a temporary failure of the Weave as it "rebooted." From everything I've read, Mystra and the Weave are the source of all magic for the deities. Ao is certainly above its needs, but not the other gods. It is possible that Ao temporarily made Helm guardian of the Weave during the Time of Troubles to prevent the chaos of a total failure of magic. This theory has always sat well with me because Helm isn't the god of magic, and his less-than-perfect control explains (much better) wild magic, much like a flight would be if I were somehow thrust into flying something; I have a very general idea, but absolutely no practice. It would not be a fun experience for anyone involved.
Still, I think that Mystra/Midnight's death was absolutely one of the worst of the "not handled well" as I have said before. Wooly really captured the reason that Mystryl couldn't cut off Karsus, so I won't repeat his fine words.
|
| Azuth |
Posted - 13 May 2011 : 01:20:26
quote:
Originally posted by Lord Karsus
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
That's why it was called a surprise attack. You could instead apply that reasoning to Mystryl. Instead of destroying an entire empire that she should have favored for being highly magical, she could have simply cut Karsus's access ---and his alone---to the Weave. If she could do that to gods, why not to a mere mortal? And while Karsus's attack can be considered a surprise [sort of], she still had ample time to block Karsus's access to the Weave, thanks to the phaerimm who directly attacked the said archwizard as he tried to ascend.
-Mystryl/Mystra didn't destroy Netheril so much as it's literal fall was a biproduct of the fact that she was dead for a minute or so, and in that one minute, magic ceased to exist. By the time she was rebooted as Mystra, High Netheril had already come crashing down- it was calculated the speeds and heights necessary for this to happen, and the math checked out, but it did not seemingly match the lore, so, apparently, terminal velocity and other physics are different in Realmspace. And, even if she hadn't committed suicide to unlink herself from Karsus, it is likely that Netheril still would have fallen, because while linked with Karsus, magic was failing. If Karsus and she stayed linked for longer, the Weave would have likely been torn asunder, and Netheril would have fallen anyway. In any scenario, High Netheril was toast, a victim of unforseen consequences.
-As for why she didn't stop Karsus when developing the spell, well, she wouldn't be a very good deity of magic, for one, interfering with the development of magic. Mystryl was a lot more neutral and hands off than her predecessor, Mystra- maybe this is why Mystra was so relatively heavy handed. In addition, 3e sources hint that Karsus was being aided by Shar, to a degree, keeping the development of the spell a secret from Mystra, and seemingly prompting him to eventually cast it on her, in lieu of any other deity that could have sufficed.
I am aware it's a typo, but just for those who don't Mystra was Mystryl's successor, not predecessor. A great discussion, regardless. And it should be noted that Mystra banned mortals from the requisite magic to ever create this situation again.
|
| Azuth |
Posted - 13 May 2011 : 01:17:10
quote:
Originally posted by Lord Karsus
<snip>
-When she died the first time (Mystryl), the only thing to go awry in the world was the fact that she died. What happened? Magic went dead for a limited period of time, and then went back on line when she was reborn. Technically speaking, this is what should have happened when she died the third time, at the hand of Cyric (barring information withheld from us thus far, explaining why this instance was different from the first).
On this, we couldn't agree more.
|
| Seethyr |
Posted - 12 May 2011 : 19:11:12
quote:
Originally posted by Azuth
quote:
Originally posted by Seethyr
<snip>
I actually got a bit of chill when Khelben died so that's my favorite right now. Halaster also went out in a fitting way and I see it as a form of "redemption" for the character though I wish it had been done in a novel.<snip>
So you think that these were not deaths that were not handled well? I just want to be clear, because I agree, but that's not the topic of the forum so I am just checking to make sure I'm agreeing with your sentiment. 
Yeah, good point. I just hated being so negative about the deaths of the gods without countering it with a few good things. |
| Lord Karsus |
Posted - 12 May 2011 : 18:26:18
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
That's why it was called a surprise attack. You could instead apply that reasoning to Mystryl. Instead of destroying an entire empire that she should have favored for being highly magical, she could have simply cut Karsus's access ---and his alone---to the Weave. If she could do that to gods, why not to a mere mortal? And while Karsus's attack can be considered a surprise [sort of], she still had ample time to block Karsus's access to the Weave, thanks to the phaerimm who directly attacked the said archwizard as he tried to ascend.
-Mystryl/Mystra didn't destroy Netheril so much as it's literal fall was a biproduct of the fact that she was dead for a minute or so, and in that one minute, magic ceased to exist. By the time she was rebooted as Mystra, High Netheril had already come crashing down- it was calculated the speeds and heights necessary for this to happen, and the math checked out, but it did not seemingly match the lore, so, apparently, terminal velocity and other physics are different in Realmspace. And, even if she hadn't committed suicide to unlink herself from Karsus, it is likely that Netheril still would have fallen, because while linked with Karsus, magic was failing. If Karsus and she stayed linked for longer, the Weave would have likely been torn asunder, and Netheril would have fallen anyway. In any scenario, High Netheril was toast, a victim of unforseen consequences.
-As for why she didn't stop Karsus when developing the spell, well, she wouldn't be a very good deity of magic, for one, interfering with the development of magic. Mystryl was a lot more neutral and hands off than her predecessor, Mystra- maybe this is why Mystra was so relatively heavy handed. In addition, 3e sources hint that Karsus was being aided by Shar, to a degree, keeping the development of the spell a secret from Mystra, and seemingly prompting him to eventually cast it on her, in lieu of any other deity that could have sufficed. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 12 May 2011 : 17:00:51
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
quote:
Originally posted by Azuth
If Mystra could cut off Cyric's connection to the Weave with a thought, it just seems odd to me that she wouldn't do so while being attacked.
That's why it was called a surprise attack. You could instead apply that reasoning to Mystryl. Instead of destroying an entire empire that she should have favored for being highly magical, she could have simply cut Karsus's access ---and his alone---to the Weave. If she could do that to gods, why not to a mere mortal? And while Karsus's attack can be considered a surprise [sort of], she still had ample time to block Karsus's access to the Weave, thanks to the phaerimm who directly attacked the said archwizard as he tried to ascend.
She couldn't do that because he was also a god of magic at that time. If she cut him off, he could have restored his connection. Hence, the reboot was the only solution. And again, destroying the empire was a result of all this -- not the goal; not even a consideration, I'm sure, compared to saving magic for the entire world. |
| Dennis |
Posted - 12 May 2011 : 07:43:52
quote:
Originally posted by Azuth
If Mystra could cut off Cyric's connection to the Weave with a thought, it just seems odd to me that she wouldn't do so while being attacked.
That's why it was called a surprise attack. You could instead apply that reasoning to Mystryl. Instead of destroying an entire empire that she should have favored for being highly magical, she could have simply cut Karsus's access ---and his alone---to the Weave. If she could do that to gods, why not to a mere mortal? And while Karsus's attack can be considered a surprise [sort of], she still had ample time to block Karsus's access to the Weave, thanks to the phaerimm who directly attacked the said archwizard as he tried to ascend. |
| Lord Karsus |
Posted - 12 May 2011 : 06:10:21
-Regarding Mystra and the repercussions of her deaths, the Time of Troubles cannot be counted, technically, because, looking at things from a scientific point of view, conditions were not normalized like they were the first time. Extenuating circumstances are present during the Time of Troubles that, in effect, causes us to have an asterisk placed next to the results of what happens when Mystra dies.
-When she died the first time (Mystryl), the only thing to go awry in the world was the fact that she died. What happened? Magic went dead for a limited period of time, and then went back on line when she was reborn. Technically speaking, this is what should have happened when she died the third time, at the hand of Cyric (barring information withheld from us thus far, explaining why this instance was different from the first).
|
| Azuth |
Posted - 12 May 2011 : 05:02:12
quote:
Originally posted by Seethyr
<snip>
I actually got a bit of chill when Khelben died so that's my favorite right now. Halaster also went out in a fitting way and I see it as a form of "redemption" for the character though I wish it had been done in a novel.<snip>
So you think that these were not deaths that were not handled well? I just want to be clear, because I agree, but that's not the topic of the forum so I am just checking to make sure I'm agreeing with your sentiment.
|
| Azuth |
Posted - 12 May 2011 : 04:59:29
quote:
Originally posted by Chosen of Asmodeus
quote:
Originally posted by Azuth
What I don't understand is why there wasn't a Spellplague then, or when the first Mystra died. And on the subject of Mystra, I'm not sure if her death was a great one or not. I mean, dying at the hands of Helm was pretty epic, but then she reappears at the end of the book and blows Bane to bits. Bane, of course, doesn't die, but she's "really dead." The first death was very cool; the second one, not so much. But, the battle at the Temple of Lathander is some of Scott Ciencin's best writing IMHO.
There was something like a spellplague after her first death; various strange events started happening as magic collapsed. Mountain ranges made of glass appearing out of no where and spells going crazy when cast. Wasn't a wave of blue fire, but things did go rather wonky.
I agree that there were strange events during the Time of Troubles, but magic was awry before her death, too. Even Mystra's magic was unstable, which is how Bane managed to capture her. But while magic was unstable, and only fools suffered to cast spells, the clergy of Helm were spared all ill effects as their deity remained in the heavens. So, while Mystra wasn't controlling the Weave, it was still there and functioning. The variable for me was that people could still die, but how "strongly" their spirits were pulled to the Fugue Plain seemed to vary. That was reiterated during the brief period when Cyric fled Bone Castle and Kelemvor assumed godhood in Prince of Lies. But with Mystryl's death, magic failed completely, and the Weave rebuilt itself and Mystra was "born" from it. Killing Midnight (how such a thing is possible escapes me) should have just caused a new goddess of magic to appear. I don't see why killing Midnight would be as difficult as destroying the Weave, and thus cutting off all gods access to magic. In simpler terms: I fail to see how killing this goddess of magic is different than the others, as it seems that the Weave protects itself, not that Mystra/Mystryl protect the Weave. They have absolute power over it, but they are born from it. If Mystra could cut off Cyric's connection to the Weave with a thought, it just seems odd to me that she wouldn't do so while being attacked. Anyway, in closing on point, I still thing the first Mystra's first death was spectacular, and if her "Magic Elemental" death was her true destruction, it just didn't seem handled well to me, which is abnormal for one of Scott Ciencin's books IMO.
So ends the ramblings of the First Magister—for now.
|
| Seethyr |
Posted - 12 May 2011 : 03:07:53
I don't know if they are technically considered deaths, but the "culling" of the wonderful variety of deities on Toril to be well....sad. I miss the Nobanions of the world.
Of course, I consider the "death" of great cultures and lands like Unther, Mulhorand and of course, Maztica to be the saddest of all.
I actually got a bit of chill when Khelben died so that's my favorite right now. Halaster also went out in a fitting way and I see it as a form of "redemption" for the character though I wish it had been done in a novel. |
| Chosen of Asmodeus |
Posted - 12 May 2011 : 02:48:41
quote:
Originally posted by Azuth
What I don't understand is why there wasn't a Spellplague then, or when the first Mystra died. And on the subject of Mystra, I'm not sure if her death was a great one or not. I mean, dying at the hands of Helm was pretty epic, but then she reappears at the end of the book and blows Bane to bits. Bane, of course, doesn't die, but she's "really dead." The first death was very cool; the second one, not so much. But, the battle at the Temple of Lathander is some of Scott Ciencin's best writing IMHO.
There was something like a spellplague after her first death; various strange events started happening as magic collapsed. Mountain ranges made of glass appearing out of no where and spells going crazy when cast. Wasn't a wave of blue fire, but things did go rather wonky. |
| Lord Karsus |
Posted - 11 May 2011 : 05:52:16
quote:
Originally posted by Azuth
Well, the Netherese cities floated because of magic. When the Weave failed, they only had one way to go. What I don't understand is why there wasn't a Spellplague then, or when the first Mystra died. And on the subject of Mystra, I'm not sure if her death was a great one or not. I mean, dying at the hands of Helm was pretty epic, but then she reappears at the end of the book and blows Bane to bits. Bane, of course, doesn't die, but she's "really dead." The first death was very cool; the second one, not so much. But, the battle at the Temple of Lathander is some of Scott Ciencin's best writing IMHO.
-Was discussed and dissected plenty when the details of the 4e transition came to light. The metagame consensus more or less is just that WotC wanted to do things that way. The best in-game consensus that was reached was that she was caught unprepared, and didn't have a back-up contingency. Of course, when Karsus' Avatar was cast, that was a spur of the moment thing, and it doesn't make too much sense that such an important deity who already has a history of being killed didn't have much of a contingency that we know of (asides for the Chosen having slivers of her power), but...Apparently, the new Elminster book touches on this. |
| Azuth |
Posted - 11 May 2011 : 03:52:33
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
quote:
Originally posted by Azuth
Well, the Netherese cities floated because of magic. When the Weave failed, they only had one way to go.
There are a lot of ways she could have avoided such disaster. I recall Wooly and I had a rather long discussion about that...
quote:
Originally posted by Azuth
What I don't understand is why there wasn't a Spellplague then, or when the first Mystra died. And on the subject of Mystra, I'm not sure if her death was a great one or not. I mean, dying at the hands of Helm was pretty epic, but then she reappears at the end of the book and blows Bane to bits. Bane, of course, doesn't die, but she's "really dead." The first death was very cool; the second one, not so much. But, the battle at the Temple of Lathander is some of Scott Ciencin's best writing IMHO.
As I am not a fan of the Avatar trilogy, I see her death and those of the other avatars pointless.
A lot of that was proscribed by TSR. Certain things had to happen; that was preordained by the transition to the 2E Realms, per a conversation I had with Jim Lowder, when he was the managing editor, I believe. I'd wager that Ed wasn't happy about Mystra's death. If he's ever had a patron deity in the Realms, it'd be her. However, Jim wrote a great story in Price of Lies which really made Midnight/Mystra an interesting hybrid of goddess and former mortal.
The Mystryl -> Mystra transition seemed to go more smoothly, as if Mystra had all of the memories of Mystryl. I'll have to look for Wooly's postings.
|
| Dennis |
Posted - 11 May 2011 : 03:34:53
quote:
Originally posted by Azuth
Well, the Netherese cities floated because of magic. When the Weave failed, they only had one way to go.
There are a lot of ways she could have avoided such disaster. I recall Wooly and I had a rather long discussion about that...
quote:
Originally posted by Azuth
What I don't understand is why there wasn't a Spellplague then, or when the first Mystra died. And on the subject of Mystra, I'm not sure if her death was a great one or not. I mean, dying at the hands of Helm was pretty epic, but then she reappears at the end of the book and blows Bane to bits. Bane, of course, doesn't die, but she's "really dead." The first death was very cool; the second one, not so much. But, the battle at the Temple of Lathander is some of Scott Ciencin's best writing IMHO.[/blue][/font=Trebuchet MS]
As I am not a fan of the Avatar trilogy, I see her death and those of the other avatars pointless. |
| Azuth |
Posted - 11 May 2011 : 01:33:40
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
I wanted Karsus to succeed. He did, for a brief moment. And I didn't mind that she killed Mystryl in the process. I just found it "too much" that the entire empire had to fall.
Well, the Netherese cities floated because of magic. When the Weave failed, they only had one way to go. What I don't understand is why there wasn't a Spellplague then, or when the first Mystra died. And on the subject of Mystra, I'm not sure if her death was a great one or not. I mean, dying at the hands of Helm was pretty epic, but then she reappears at the end of the book and blows Bane to bits. Bane, of course, doesn't die, but she's "really dead." The first death was very cool; the second one, not so much. But, the battle at the Temple of Lathander is some of Scott Ciencin's best writing IMHO. |
| Andrekan |
Posted - 10 May 2011 : 18:19:15
I understand some disappointments with Character deaths but I also see them as story developments that the survivors have to deal with that may affect their future actions. I also know sometimes in the Realms death does not necessarily end it for characters, such as Bane and Torm. I've also must note their maybe mystery surrounding certain events, such as death, that leaves unanswered questions that may come to fruition with later intrigues or intrigue of a larger scale than mortals might be able to understand at first glance. But I am also being vigilant for any signs of Miyeritar or Rhymaanthiin.. |
| Dennis |
Posted - 05 May 2011 : 04:19:54
quote:
Originally posted by Lord Karsus
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
I wanted Karsus to succeed. He did, for a brief moment. And I didn't mind that she killed Mystryl in the process. I just found it "too much" that the entire empire had to fall.
-Nevermind. I thought you were talking about Cyric killing Mystra.
Nah. I'm one with the many who didn't like it at all---the death of Mystra and the resulting Spellplague. But I moved on...Whether we liked it or not, it already happened. And unless WotC decides to make a "reset," it can never be undone. I still love the Realms despite the changes, (or maybe love it more because of the changes). |
| Lord Karsus |
Posted - 04 May 2011 : 18:18:56
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
I wanted Karsus to succeed. He did, for a brief moment. And I didn't mind that she killed Mystryl in the process. I just found it "too much" that the entire empire had to fall.
-Nevermind. I thought you were talking about Cyric killing Mystra. |
| Chosen of Asmodeus |
Posted - 04 May 2011 : 14:05:44
quote:
Originally posted by Azuth
quote:
Originally posted by Chosen of Asmodeus
While I'm in favor of Triel's death, I don't think it was handled well mainly because it happened off screen and received only passing mention.
I'd also list Catti-brie and Regis' deaths as handled poorly. Catti gets put on a bus for one novel, turned into a prop for the next, gets to have sex with Drizzt(pretty much all of her scenes after The Orc King involve her having sex with Drizzt, actually...), then gets carried off by a unicorn to an afterlife that stands in complete defiance of all rules of death and the afterlife in Faerun. It's a mess, and a disservice to the character(granted, I never liked the character much, but still this was bad).
I will agree with all points stated except that I liked Cattie-brie. A human child raised by a dwarf was really an interesting, and original idea. If anything, the total absence of a storyline about Wulfgar's death was not handled well. In honesty, it would have been better to leave him dead from the yolchol than how he ultimately just abandons everything he cares about and wanders away. Not one of Bob's best points in storytelling (assuming that the chapter covering it wasn't cut by the editors).
I don't mind the concept of the character, but the character herself never appealed to me. She was useless in Icewind Dale, not doing anything; in Streams of Silver she's suddenly an expert archer but has a melt down after killing a human...two minutes after shooting down some dwarves(grey dwarves, but still). She becomes progressively less likable from there.
Also, they've apparently released a story on Wulfgar's death. Short story in an anthology, I believe. |
| Dennis |
Posted - 04 May 2011 : 07:39:36
quote:
Originally posted by Dagnirion
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
I guess Mystryl's death was handled well.
-You're the first to say that, that I've ever heard. If there's any deaths that were handled poorly, hers might be the most striking, in my opinion.
I wanted Karsus to succeed. He did, for a brief moment. And I didn't mind that she killed Mystryl in the process. I just found it "too much" that the entire empire had to fall. |
| Lord Karsus |
Posted - 04 May 2011 : 06:40:23
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
I guess Mystryl's death was handled well.
-You're the first to say that, that I've ever heard. If there's any deaths that were handled poorly, hers might be the most striking, in my opinion. |
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