| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Lashaeral |
Posted - 25 Apr 2011 : 05:24:26
I've looked at a variety of books trying to find their entry, cant find it in either of the two new FRbooks
Am I wrong, or does their description NOT MATCH the Pre sundering dark elves, of the 2nd edition cormanthor book.
brown skin, and black hair... just is uck.
Any ideas why they'd do it like that?
Is it to make it markedly different from drow in appearence?
or to make them look more"negro" to make the game more accessible to other ethnicitys.
Im tryingto be value neutral, but leaving my feelings on the death of eilistraee aside, I think this is ... of questionable taste. |
| 30 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| Alystra Illianniis |
Posted - 13 Apr 2013 : 06:17:00
True enough, Aryalome. Lolth and her two children were ALWAYS ebony-skinned, and apparently so were the elves who followed them in the beginning. "Her slender black fingers clenched tightly at her handhold,.... She had borne him children- twin godlings as darkly beautiful as herself... By Corellon's decree, the destiny of the mortal elves who shared her dark beauty was in her keeping."
And to Lord Karsus: You said "We never had a "very definite distinction", which is what allowed Brian and whatever other designers to manipulate the established facts and alter them to the way they were currently, a specific "family" or whatever you want to call them of Green Elves."
Not so. From the very passage above, it is clear that there WAS a clear distinction pre-3rd ed. That passage is from Evermeet: Island of Elves, from the beginning where it describes Arvandore and the events leading to Araushnee's fall. And there are now TWO races of "dark elves"- the drow, who never changed, and are nearly ALL followers of Lolth at this point (save for the few exceptions like Drizzt and Jarlaxle, and Liriel as well), and the "redeemed" dark elves who were turned back into their supposedly "original" race. (Which they apparently never were, from the passage I quoted.)
As for whether the drow are "behlden" to Lolth, that is precisely the case. Without any other deities to follow, there really is no other choice for the vast majority of drow after the LP books. It's Lolth or nothing for all but a fortunate few who managed to learn of other deities. Lolth does NOT allow worship or even MENTION of other deities by her people! She considers speaking of other deities to be heresy, and it's punishable by death- unless they are speaking of them in a negative manner (ie- destroy the pathetic children of that fool Corellon!) but to speak of one favorably is NOT permitted. |
| Aryalómė |
Posted - 12 Apr 2013 : 02:31:06
It's true that the original Dark Elves weren't brown skinned and dark haired pre-3e. If one reads Elves of Evermeet, you quickly find that out. Even Lolth was ebony (actually ebony, not brown) skinned and red eyed. I think they did it to be politically correct... (eye roll) |
| Athanatos |
Posted - 12 Apr 2013 : 00:25:43
I remember it mentioning that green elf collaborators were effected by the Descent as well. I also recall that it mentions this link and similar info in The Lady Penitent trilogy. If you think about it the fact that it was never really explicitly stated whether the dark elves were their own subrace, a complete division from green elves in other words, would be clarified by what they have done with 4th edition. This would make it no longer an issue right?
And I believe that them being green elves, not specified as having diverged as the wood elves and wild elves, makes them Eladrin. Any mention that I've found has said that they're Eladrin.
An interesting aside, Elminster Aumar doesn't work in the Verification just Elminster lol |
| Lord Karsus |
Posted - 10 May 2011 : 18:15:02
quote:
Originally posted by Chosen of Asmodeus
The thing about 4e in regards to deities is that they're really moving away from the concept of racial pantheons all together. Some deities are favored more by one race or another, but for the most part they're trying to make them all mainstream; anyone can worship Lolth, drow can worship any deity they want. So long as they aren't open about it so as the Lolthites don't murder them. Or maybe worship other gods and have to pay heavy tribute to Lolth. Which I'm not complaining about; I like my drow...well, I like my drow as heads mounted on the walls of orc fortresses, but I prefer my drow slaves to Lolth and her clergy as opposed to having free options.
-Societal factors and such still apply. For some Dwarf to worship Lolth, for example, he/she (more likely she) needs to be introduced to her, know a little something about her, etc. That was always the case, so that much really isn't changing.
quote:
Originally posted by Diffan
It still is a grand and detailed setting IMO. The fact that novels and game supplements are considered Canon for the Realms has little impact on how vibrant, detailed, or great the setting became. If anyting, it forced people with imaginations into a scope with little (if any) room for error. If anyone wantd to have a piece of that imagination come to life in print, well they'd better do extensive research for any and all possible lore on that subject lest is override something an author or game designer wrote in 1988's such-and-such adventure from Dungeon #119... Sorry but I don't have access to all the Lore from the beginning of Forgotten Realms history.
Not only that, but I sure don't have the money to spend on obtaining those old supplements for the research, which many FR fans almost require writers/designers to plunge through for accuracy and maintaining continuity.
-Nothing has changed. If anyone wants to "have a piece of that imagination come to life in print", they still need to do "extensive research"- more realistically, as much research as they/WotC editors consider satisfactory; I combed through plenty of obscure sources for information about topics in Elves of Faerūn, and never found it burdensome, or anything like that, nor did I ever find all of that searching 'enough- to ensure that what they're writing doesn't categorically contradict, overturn, or whatever else, something that was written prior. If Author X is writing something about [topic], he/she still needs to establish that what "game designer wrote in 1988's such-and-such adventure from Dungeon #119" doesn't contradict what he/she is writing, because it'd still be as big a wash as it would've been in 3e, 2e, or 1e. He/she still has to "plunge through for accuracy and maintaining continuity".
-New places that were introduced, or radically changed in the FRCG, there is less direct information on them, allowing authors more free room to work, but they are still "handcuffed", in the sense that the structure of the setting that supports everything- how societies work, interact, etc.- still goes back hundreds of books, and thousands of pages. To say that there is now a carte blanch is something of a fallacy. There's more room to "maneuver", in certain places, but then again, if one were looking for places that had "maneuverability", there were plenty of places already existing.
-To make this topical to Drow, say some author gets the green light to right a book about Drow, in a previously unrevealed settlement, or one that was only established after the Spellplague, and is wholly their personal invention. They'll have free reign over it (to a degree), yes, but their hands will still be tied, and they will still have to conduct satisfactory research regarding plenty of things- how other Drow interact, how other Drow cities interact, how the rest of the Underdark is structured, how the rest of the Underdark interacts with the Drow, how the surface world interacts with the Underdark, and plenty of other things. |
| Diffan |
Posted - 10 May 2011 : 17:16:12
quote:
Originally posted by Zanan
Nope. It was a grand and very detailed setting. If people felt deterred by this rather unique setting, they could have chosen the freshly invented Eberron. But WotC decided to bomb the FR back to a more easier to handle light-weight version.
It still is a grand and detailed setting IMO. The fact that novels and game supplements are considered Canon for the Realms has little impact on how vibrant, detailed, or great the setting became. If anyting, it forced people with imaginations into a scope with little (if any) room for error. If anyone wantd to have a piece of that imagination come to life in print, well they'd better do extensive research for any and all possible lore on that subject lest is override something an author or game designer wrote in 1988's such-and-such adventure from Dungeon #119... Sorry but I don't have access to all the Lore from the beginning of Forgotten Realms history.
Not only that, but I sure don't have the money to spend on obtaining those old supplements for the research, which many FR fans almost require writers/designers to plunge through for accuracy and maintaining continuity.
quote:
[quote]Originally posted by Zanan
Since you're a 4E-follower, you should know all the answers by now. The FR"PG" never gives any great hostility impression about the drow. Hence, it does create a feeling that they, much like horn-headed, tail-wagging tieflings and flame-haired aasimar are the norm, rather than something special. At least when it comes to adventure groups. Not that we spoke about this on here time and again too. You've got your opinions and assumptions on it and fair enough, I got mine.
You know, 4E really IS the path to enlightenment!  . To para-phrase the FRPG: "Drow are a decadent race of dark elves who's beauty and sophistication fail to mask hearts all too often stained with evil..." and "Most drow are singularly wicked. They are cruel in their dealings with othersand treacherious among themselves." That sounds pretty hostile to me. Also sounds like they'd not be taken lightly on the surface and probably still attacked on sight.
I think the attitude of non-standard races (non- elf, human, dwarf, halfling) being more common is the fact that there's a ton of support in the player's hands for these races than in any previous editions. In v3.5 you had all sorts of specialized books for them (Races of Stone, Races of the Wild, Drow of the Underdark) but those were subject to banning by the DM. In 4E, however, most of the player's handbooks have at least some support for those races, be it a Paragon Path or specialized Feat. That doesn't mean (to me anyways) that they're more common, but the access to the information and rules is there to aid players. This might hinder a DM's view that those races should be played knowning their presence is special as opposed to the 3 humans in the party. |
| Chosen of Asmodeus |
Posted - 10 May 2011 : 13:57:00
The thing about 4e in regards to deities is that they're really moving away from the concept of racial pantheons all together. Some deities are favored more by one race or another, but for the most part they're trying to make them all mainstream; anyone can worship Lolth, drow can worship any deity they want. So long as they aren't open about it so as the Lolthites don't murder them. Or maybe worship other gods and have to pay heavy tribute to Lolth. Which I'm not complaining about; I like my drow...well, I like my drow as heads mounted on the walls of orc fortresses, but I prefer my drow slaves to Lolth and her clergy as opposed to having free options. |
| Lord Karsus |
Posted - 10 May 2011 : 05:50:19
quote:
Originally posted by Alystra Illianniis
The whole point of having more than one deity (They were ALL "killed" but Lolth) was to give them more depth and choice than just "worship Lolth or die".) was to make them more interesting.
-Which the Drow still have, via other Underdark/surface deities. In the 4e Realms, Lolth is still 'THE' Drow deity, just like she was in 1e, 2e, 3e. I didn't like the way the Drow pantheon was culled, but half of them didn't belong to begin with (or belong as deities!). Selvetarm, for example, barely had a clergy to begin with (which was controlled by Lolthites), and was more of a servant of Lolth than an independent entity. He would always have been better suited as a non-divine champion of hers, like Lashrael serves Corellon Larethian. Ghaunadaur, he's always been so alien that I always found it hard to consider him a Drow deity. Eilistraee and Vhaeraun are the only ones I dislike not existing anymore (as the Masked Lady, not separate deities). Kiaransalee, while I liked her, she was also somewhat under the yoke of Lolth, and I'm iffy on her clergy and their viability. She (and them) certainly were cool, though.
quote:
Originally posted by Alystra Illianniis
Not only do all the "good" drow now belong to a different "race", but they even the ones who are left no longer have any free will, apparently. It's Lolth or nothing for them now, and the history change just makes it even worse.
-Good Drow exist in the 4e Forgotten Realms, just like they existed in the 1e, 2e, and 3e Forgotten Realms. Only certain Drow, who met specific criteria in 1378 DR were transformed "back" (and, presumably, since 100 or so years have passed, their children, when applicable). Drizzt and (as some people think) Jarlaxle, for example. And, the transformed Drow and the untransformed ones, they're not beholden to Lolth, Correlon Larethian-as-steward-of-Eilistraee, or any other deities, just like most other Faerūnians. Cultural mores dictate certain things, especially in the case of Underdark Drow, but they can reject Lolth as easily as they could have 100 years prior.
quote:
Originally posted by Alystra Illianniis
Where we used to have a very definite distinction between "dark" elves and "green" elves, now they are just green elves with a darker tan.....
-We never had a "very definite distinction", which is what allowed Brian and whatever other designers to manipulate the established facts and alter them to the way they were currently, a specific "family" or whatever you want to call them of Green Elves. As I said at the beginning of this thread, nothing ever implicitly stated that Dark Elves were their own specific Elven subrace (I always considered them as such, and wrote about them as if they were, in Elves of Faerūm). Plenty has always alluded to them as such, but nothing ever specifically said that they weren't (such as giving them their own D&D stats), thereby giving us a definitive answer that they were not Green Elves (A =/= B). That "loop hole" was what allowed them to alter things without it being technically a retcon or anything like that. Personally, I think it is fairly 'intellectually dishonest', from a lore POV, since I don't think it was never implied anywhere in 1e, 2e, or 3e sources that Dark Elves = Green Elves, and there were plenty of differences to provide anecdotal evidence to highlight that they weren't, but, it is what it is. Just because we've never seen Sememmon and Manshoon in the same room together*, and Manshoon wears a mask, shouldn't mean that we should/could assume that Sememmon is Manshoon.
*I'm sure we have at some point, but it's an example. |
| Alystra Illianniis |
Posted - 09 May 2011 : 18:57:58
The whole point of having more than one deity (They were ALL "killed" but Lolth) was to give them more depth and choice than just "worship Lolth or die".) was to make them more interesting. Not only do all the "good" drow now belong to a different "race", but they even the ones who are left no longer have any free will, apparently. It's Lolth or nothing for them now, and the history change just makes it even worse. Where we used to have a very definite distinction between "dark" elves and "green" elves, now they are just green elves with a darker tan..... And Shevarash was an interesting deity. A n elven god of vengeance and justice. Reminds me a little of an elven Batman- but more powerful.... |
| Lord Karsus |
Posted - 09 May 2011 : 18:50:03
-Eh, I really can't agree, just by proxy of how little information (that I know of) that has been printed in regards to the Drow of Faerūn. There are less deities, but Lolth mostly had a monopoly on Drow worship anyway (and, admittedly, guys like Shevarash shouldn't have been deities to begin with- a saint, or something like that would have been better). Their history was altered, but other than something to be miffed about from a historical point of view or whatever, it doesn't make too much of a difference if Dark Elves were their own subrace, or a "family" of Green Elves. There have been changes in Menzoberranzan, but it's still Menzoberranzan, more or less. Same thing with a few other Drow cities. There is a minority of Drow who were redeemed, but they number a minority. Some places "accept" Drow walking around their streets, this I don't like at face value, but explanations could very easily smooth the ruffles.
-Can't think of other things that were changed, but, things are more the same than they are different.
-Zanan, and anyone else, certainly have every right to be angry, not like things anymore, and so on, though. |
| Alystra Illianniis |
Posted - 09 May 2011 : 18:36:44
Any one of those factors alone might be acceptable, but IMO, when taken all together, they pretty much ruin the drow race. In that respect, I'm in agrewith Zanan. What was once a complex and multi-faceted race has once more been reduced to two-dimensional villains with little to make them interesting. They've taken all the fun out of the drow! |
| Lord Karsus |
Posted - 09 May 2011 : 18:27:09
quote:
Originally posted by Diffan
The fact is, Canon should work FOR you and help you establish a common ground between others who share your joy of the Realms. It should never deter your interest because something is considered "official" by a few people you've might have never met. The greatest loss is that the thing you love is no longer being supported in the way you desire. Yea, I'd be upset at that too but luckly there are others who feel the same way and through that connection, the fun of playin in the Realms is still there.
-The lack of support soon thereafter is what is the deterrent.
-To make it topical to Drow and Dark Elves, if one only liked Menzoberranzan because Triel was Matron Mother of House Baenre, and then suddenly off-screen, she was offed, said person doesn't have what it was that made them like House Baenre. Can they pretend that she was never offed, and nothing never happened? Sure. But, they're still pretending- not a single sourcebook, article, or novel from that point forward will have the elements that caused said person to enjoy Menzoberranzan (save for flashbacks and other temporary things like that).
-Don't agree that the reimagining of Dark Elven history, the reintroduction of them into the world as a whole, or the elimination of a specific deity should be cause to stop liking things wholesale, but everyone's different. To be miffed at parts that don't make sense, sure. But, everyone's different, I guess. Different levels of tolerance, reason for being fans, and all that. |
| Zanan |
Posted - 09 May 2011 : 15:23:34
quote:
Originally posted by Diffan
quote:
Originally posted by Zanan
Won't change a bit. That is: leveling frustration at you. It's been done, "the child lies at the bottom of the well now", as we use to say over here - and nothing can be done about it. In essence, your twisting of Elven history was the first step of me losing my love for the Realms. The next one was the deiicide started with various novels, culminating in the Lisa Smedman series.... Not to mention the Spellplague and all. I'm both suprised and horrified when realizing now what has been done to the Realms and me not checking any sourcebook or board about them essentially ever since the advent of 4E. Never ever thought I'd lose my vibrant love for such a great setting ... and so thoroughly at that.
NB: Yes, I know I can play there et al, I have still all the grand sourcebooks and actually bought more AD&D-Realms stuff, but it still pains me to see what has been done to them. How can I actually enjoy gaming there full well knowing that all what I create will by default go out of the window because of some designer's grand new scheme.
And yet another shining example of why Canon was a deterrent for the Realms.
Nope. It was a grand and very detailed setting. If people felt deterred by this rather unique setting, they could have chosen the freshly invented Eberron. But WotC decided to bomb the FR back to a more easier to handle light-weight version.
quote:
The fact is, Canon should work FOR you and help you establish a common ground between others who share your joy of the Realms. It should never deter your interest because something is considered "official" by a few people you've might have never met. The greatest loss is that the thing you love is no longer being supported in the way you desire. Yea, I'd be upset at that too but luckly there are others who feel the same way and through that connection, the fun of playin in the Realms is still there.
Luckily? Well well ...
quote:
quote:
Originally posted by Zanan
....and the new-look 4E-have fun all you players out there drow-for-everyone.
I really have no idea where you got this one from? Is this because the Drow race was featured as a Playable Race in the Forgotten Realms Player's Guide?? If I recall, there was a whole stat-block write up for them as PCs in the FRCS as well. Also, not really sure but I'd assume Drow encounter extream racism on the surface and in most cities (maybe Waterdeep and Baldur's Gate are a little more tolerable) and when I DM them or Play them I automatically assume everyone's attitude I meet automatically turns to unfriendly or down-right hostile, no questions asked.
Could you enlighten me on why you feel this way?
Since you're a 4E-follower, you should know all the answers by now. The FR"PG" never gives any great hostility impression about the drow. Hence, it does create a feeling that they, much like horn-headed, tail-wagging tieflings and flame-haired aasimar are the norm, rather than something special. At least when it comes to adventure groups. Not that we spoke about this on here time and again too. You've got your opinions and assumptions on it and fair enough, I got mine. |
| Brimstone |
Posted - 09 May 2011 : 11:47:03
Oh, ok. I haven't been keeping up with 4E lately. |
| Diffan |
Posted - 09 May 2011 : 10:53:14
Yea, they were re-featured in the Hereos of the Forgotten Kingdoms with their new flex stats. They also nerfed the race by making you select one of their racial powers (Cloud of Darkness or Darkfire) at character creation instead of gaining both but only allowed to use one per encounter  . Needless to say, I scoff at the absurd notion and still allow either/or. |
| Brimstone |
Posted - 09 May 2011 : 07:02:43
quote:
Originally posted by sfdragon
its also in one of the essential books.
What? |
| sfdragon |
Posted - 09 May 2011 : 05:23:08
its also in one of the essential books. |
| Diffan |
Posted - 09 May 2011 : 04:27:17
quote:
Originally posted by Zanan
Won't change a bit. That is: leveling frustration at you. It's been done, "the child lies at the bottom of the well now", as we use to say over here - and nothing can be done about it. In essence, your twisting of Elven history was the first step of me losing my love for the Realms. The next one was the deiicide started with various novels, culminating in the Lisa Smedman series.... Not to mention the Spellplague and all. I'm both suprised and horrified when realizing now what has been done to the Realms and me not checking any sourcebook or board about them essentially ever since the advent of 4E. Never ever thought I'd lose my vibrant love for such a great setting ... and so thoroughly at that.
NB: Yes, I know I can play there et al, I have still all the grand sourcebooks and actually bought more AD&D-Realms stuff, but it still pains me to see what has been done to them. How can I actually enjoy gaming there full well knowing that all what I create will by default go out of the window because of some designer's grand new scheme.
And yet another shining example of why Canon was a deterrent for the Realms. The very definition of Canon (A secular law, rule, or code of law that's considered true by the masses) is set for failure, espically in this style of media because people are naturally imperfect. Canon does not perceive different views or opinions because under Canon, there can be only 1 real answer which often referes to the latest standard. The very fact that you actually run campaigns, have adventures, or have your character even involved in the Realms deviates from Canon because they're not considered "official" material from the majority of the community.
So some author writes a different version and perspective of the events that took place in a part of Faerūn's history. So heaven forbid one take those events with a skeptical eye and assume that it's just that, one individual's perspective of those events. Even our own historians cannot fully detail the reason our universe's existance came to be, because there are conflicting theories (though there is a "Main" theory that a good majority accept).
The fact is, Canon should work FOR you and help you establish a common ground between others who share your joy of the Realms. It should never deter your interest because something is considered "official" by a few people you've might have never met. The greatest loss is that the thing you love is no longer being supported in the way you desire. Yea, I'd be upset at that too but luckly there are others who feel the same way and through that connection, the fun of playin in the Realms is still there.
quote:
Originally posted by Zanan
....and the new-look 4E-have fun all you players out there drow-for-everyone.
I really have no idea where you got this one from? Is this because the Drow race was featured as a Playable Race in the Forgotten Realms Player's Guide?? If I recall, there was a whole stat-block write up for them as PCs in the FRCS as well. Also, not really sure but I'd assume Drow encounter extream racism on the surface and in most cities (maybe Waterdeep and Baldur's Gate are a little more tolerable) and when I DM them or Play them I automatically assume everyone's attitude I meet automatically turns to unfriendly or down-right hostile, no questions asked.
Could you enlighten me on why you feel this way?
|
| Lord Karsus |
Posted - 08 May 2011 : 23:12:25
quote:
Originally posted by Alystra Illianniis
I agree with this. In my HB campaigns, I use the standard stats for elves (no 4th, so no eladrin!) and simply give them regional feats and skills, or allow players to pick a sub-race stat adjustment and use that. I've even changed the standard weapon proficiencies for my drow from rapier and long sword to rapier and cutlass. (They have a maritime society, so a cutlass made more sense.) I also added harpoon and arquebus as alternate racial weapons, for more flavor.
-With Elves, and other non-Human races that have different subraces that are different enough from each other, I like using separate stats, period. For Humans only, I like making up feat/skill combos for different ethnicities. For, say, differentiating Sun Elves and Star Elves, or Wood Elves and Wild Elves (3e), I think that if someone wanted to just use feat/skill combos to differentiate the races, they could, and it'd work- especially Wood Elves and "Wild" Elves, since all a "Wild" Elf is is a Wood Elf with different cultural sensibilities and whatnot anyway. |
| Alystra Illianniis |
Posted - 08 May 2011 : 19:24:12
quote:
Originally posted by Lord Karsus
quote:
Originally posted by Diffan
Thank God they didn't attempt to assign ability score adjustments to the different sub-races of humans, that would've been a nightmare.
-I'm disappointed this was never particularly broached. I'm not in favor of different ability scores for different ethnicities and whatnot, but in my own setting, I assign different ethnicities different inherent skill bonuses and/or feats, similar to the Regional packages that the FRCS/PGtF had. Being raised in a particular way, skills and/or feats are more reflective of that than ability score modifications.
I agree with this. In my HB campaigns, I use the standard stats for elves (no 4th, so no eladrin!) and simply give them regional feats and skills, or allow players to pick a sub-race stat adjustment and use that. I've even changed the standard weapon proficiencies for my drow from rapier and long sword to rapier and cutlass. (They have a maritime society, so a cutlass made more sense.) I also added harpoon and arquebus as alternate racial weapons, for more flavor. |
| Zanan |
Posted - 08 May 2011 : 17:25:30
quote:
Originally posted by Brian R. James
The lore in the Grand History which firmly ties the pre-descent dark elves to the family of green elves was written by me. Those unhappy with that nugget of lore should direct their disapproval my direction and nowhere else. This has nothing to do with 4th-Edition, which I wasnt even aware of as I was working on the Grand History.
Won't change a bit. That is: leveling frustration at you. It's been done, "the child lies at the bottom of the well now", as we use to say over here - and nothing can be done about it. In essence, your twisting of Elven history was the first step of me losing my love for the Realms. The next one was the deiicide started with various novels, culminating in the Lisa Smedman series and the new-look 4E-have fun all you players out there drow-for-everyone. Not to mention the Spellplague and all. I'm both suprised and horrified when realizing now what has been done to the Realms and me not checking any sourcebook or board about them essentially ever since the advent of 4E. Never ever thought I'd lose my vibrant love for such a great setting ... and so thoroughly at that.
NB: Yes, I know I can play there et al, I have still all the grand sourcebooks and actually bought more AD&D-Realms stuff, but it still pains me to see what has been done to them. How can I actually enjoy gaming there full well knowing that all what I create will by default go out of the window because of some designer's grand new scheme. To him and his - with no insult intended whatsoever, just pure and utter disappointment: "To Hell or Connaught, may you burn in Hell tonight!" |
| Lord Karsus |
Posted - 06 May 2011 : 18:28:56
quote:
Originally posted by Diffan
Thank God they didn't attempt to assign ability score adjustments to the different sub-races of humans, that would've been a nightmare.
-I'm disappointed this was never particularly broached. I'm not in favor of different ability scores for different ethnicities and whatnot, but in my own setting, I assign different ethnicities different inherent skill bonuses and/or feats, similar to the Regional packages that the FRCS/PGtF had. Being raised in a particular way, skills and/or feats are more reflective of that than ability score modifications. |
| Diffan |
Posted - 06 May 2011 : 10:45:41
quote:
Originally posted by Alystra Illianniis
This is why I don't play 4th. It makes the elf/dark elf distinction moot....
Only with mechanical differences, something that honestly got a little carried away with in 3E. I really like the idea of "sub"-races and how they're flavored different, but I don't like how each and every one all have silly ability adjustments, weapon proficiencies, and all that. An elf is an elf just as a human is a human. Thank God they didn't attempt to assign ability score adjustments to the different sub-races of humans, that would've been a nightmare.
With 4E, the usage of distinction between Wood and Wild elf is just a feat. It's simple and clean and doesn't suggest that the gap between the two is as large as people might think. Same goes for Moon and Sun elves (Eladrin if you prefer) as they're socially very different and that distinction is easily shown in their appearance (like the difference between a Turmish and Amnian for example) yet they share similar strengths and abilities akin to other Moon and Sun elves (their stats).
But I'm of an opinion that mechanics should be simple and the flavor of the character be told in the narritive.
Thanks for the clarification guys. |
| Lord Karsus |
Posted - 06 May 2011 : 05:42:25
quote:
Originally posted by Diffan
So if the Dark Elves (cured by Elistraee) are no longer Drow, and at one point were considered "Green Elves" would it be more appropriate to call them Wood or Wild by mechanical distinction? Using 3e, this would mean different stats, favored class, and all that hoop-la. In 4E, it's a matter of a feat as I'm assuming they've reverted back to Elf (not Eladrin).
-Yes. They'd have the stats of 3e Wild Elves (what I call Wood Elves, since I do not recognize Wood Elves, as presented in the books, as being a valid Elven subrace), without the societal "wildness". Using the 4e stats, they'd more simply be 'Elves'. |
| Alystra Illianniis |
Posted - 06 May 2011 : 04:20:38
This is why I don't play 4th. It makes the elf/dark elf distinction moot.... |
| Diffan |
Posted - 06 May 2011 : 04:18:27
So if the Dark Elves (cured by Elistraee) are no longer Drow, and at one point were considered "Green Elves" would it be more appropriate to call them Wood or Wild by mechanical distinction? Using 3e, this would mean different stats, favored class, and all that hoop-la. In 4E, it's a matter of a feat as I'm assuming they've reverted back to Elf (not Eladrin). |
| Alystra Illianniis |
Posted - 06 May 2011 : 03:51:54
Those pesky 4th ed dark elves! Still chaotic as ever, I see..... |
| sfdragon |
Posted - 04 May 2011 : 14:01:42
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I'm sure I saw a topic around here... 
You did, you did see a topic around here.
then it became 2 topics.
the 4e dark elves did it. |
| Brimstone |
Posted - 04 May 2011 : 06:17:08
Those pesky 4E Dark Elves are hiding again.
|
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 04 May 2011 : 04:57:46
I'm sure I saw a topic around here... |
| Thente Thunderspells |
Posted - 04 May 2011 : 00:32:10
quote:
Originally posted by sfdragon
quote:
Originally posted by Dagnirion
quote:
Originally posted by Alystra Illianniis
I'm more of the opinion that a magazine you can hold in your hands- and can open again and again whenever you want, and which is solid and can't be lost just by being accidentally deleted or having your PC crash.
-Agreed.
I also agree.
QFT
although of more concern to me is the whole realm of "digital ownership". If I pay for a subscription to something I want it in my hands so some company can't decide that they want to take it away and not allow me to download it anymore or even remove it from my device (as Amazon can do from the Kindle).
Ideally I'd like to have both a physical and soft copy of my gaming materials (and movies and books) so that if my physical copy burns I still have my backup softcopy and those can be backed up multiple places. |
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