| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| DourdenAdam |
Posted - 27 Mar 2011 : 02:01:35
Alright, I was simply wondering I was looking through a forgotten realms wiki and I noticed the current God of Death is Kelemvor. However, revenants are created by the Raven Queen. So, I was wondering how if in the realms there is no raven Queen - that I could find at least - there are revenants. I kind of would like to understand this since I am in the process of writing a story about two revenants. |
| 30 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| Ayrik |
Posted - 21 Nov 2011 : 23:35:08
quote:
Markustay
And it's funny, you know - I am reading Egg of Phoenix for another thread, and doc has a Revenant after him as well (and its pretty humorous - the thing is constantly trying to strangle him, and he just ignores it). I wonder if the Revenant was ever able to follow him to FR? Can they do that?
Well, if revenants are now servants of some deity, then the answer depends entirely upon that deity's ability to influence different worlds. I suppose the Raven Queen's domain will encompass all 4E core settings, a simplified answer for those who prefer it. |
| Icelander |
Posted - 21 Nov 2011 : 22:46:55
As it doesn't seem to have been noted in this thread, I'd like to point out that a Realmsian deity that has been specifically associated with revenants is Assuran/Hoar. They are (un)living expressions of the essence of his dogma and noted as creatures he may choose to manifest through. |
| Markustay |
Posted - 01 Apr 2011 : 17:43:16
Why would any undead?
It seems the whole problem of 'an afterlife' has already been resolved. |
| Ayrik |
Posted - 01 Apr 2011 : 17:37:02
Why would mindless undead require deities? Though I do really like your (second) grim reaper pic, Markus. |
| Markustay |
Posted - 01 Apr 2011 : 17:22:15
So if every undead type is supposed to have a god now, I wonder who is the 'zombie god'. 
He'd be the world's stupidest god. LOL
A 'Ghoul Lord' would be cool, but every time I picture a skeleton deity I think of This Guy.
On the other hand, This One is kinda cool. |
| Ayrik |
Posted - 01 Apr 2011 : 16:16:33
lol, or just get rid of her and let the revenants take care of their own business as they've always done before. |
| sfdragon |
Posted - 01 Apr 2011 : 04:56:03
make her a pirmordial spirit....
like Bhaal being a primordial spirit on rage and bloodlust... oh wait, wotc hasnt stolen that idea yet.... bummer |
| Markustay |
Posted - 31 Mar 2011 : 21:49:14
Cursts are cool.
quote:
Originally posted by Bladewind
The Raven Queen has to much of a chilly thing going on with her for me to drop her into Zhakara, although I found the idea excellent.
FR's got Auril, so she isn't needed in that capacity.
OR...., have her live in the mountaintops (just have her temples there). Lots of mountains in Zakhara, and I'm sure a few of the ranges are high-enough to be snow-capped. If you do that, you could even link her to the Wu Pi Te Shao (World Pillar) Mountains and the yakfolk.
If she's nuts, shouldn't she be the Raving Queen? |
| Kno |
Posted - 31 Mar 2011 : 17:48:52
I'm surprised no-one mentioned cursts |
| Bladewind |
Posted - 31 Mar 2011 : 10:53:47
I'm surprised no-one mentioned the original source of all revenancers, Hoar the Lord of Three Thunders. His clerics (Doombringers) used to be able to say a special Prayer of Revenance when a dying person begs for revenge on his or hers deathbed. There was a natural chance that a revenant would rise.
High level Doombringers could also cast the necromantic spell Revenance directly on a corpse killed by a sentient being. They could step back (they'd better not get in the way of the Revenant either) and watch the fun unfold. Hoar is such a fun diety to follow! Ironic or poetic justice is the best. Quinsareth in Davis' Bloodwalk is a nice canon example of a wandering doombringer, and my guess is Hoar had a chuckle or three with Walker from DeBie's Ghostwalker.
The Raven Queen has to much of a chilly thing going on with her for me to drop her into Zhakara, although I found the idea excellent. A revenant godling sound like a great epic story seed, especially if the PC's were responcable for the death of the revenant diety. Awesome ideas!
|
| Markustay |
Posted - 31 Mar 2011 : 05:05:01
Oh, I know canonically (or should I say 'by the rules'?) Midnight died when she became Mystra - at that moment she became a spirit (energy), so she became something else, and Midnight no-longer existed.
I was just throwing some 'DM fodder' out there for anyone who wanted to use it. The half-mad Revenant of Midnight just sounds kinda cool IMHO.
And it's funny, you know - I am reading Egg of Phoenix for another thread, and doc has a Revenant after him as well (and its pretty humorous - the thing is constantly trying to strangle him, and he just ignores it). I wonder if the Revenant was ever able to follow him to FR? Can they do that? |
| Ayrik |
Posted - 30 Mar 2011 : 04:48:54
Not that a Weave Revenant bent on vengeance upon certain gods (and their agents) doesn't have merit ...
Besides, it's pretty well established (in each instance) that Mystryl/Mystra/Midnight/Mystra (predictably) heroically sacrifice herself at the last instant to save the Weave. Yay, very Lawful Stupid and easily digested by the masses. None of them tries to snatch a fragment of concentrated Weave power and scuttle off, nor bothers with any sort of counterstrike against their attackers, nor calls upon allies (or enemies of their enemies), nor attempts any kind of negotiation or surrender or avoision or escape, and of course none of them is competent enough to properly defend themselves. They all wanna act like noble paladins and die, put a happy ending on the tragedy, be predictably goody-two-shoes. Given a choice, they'd probably refuse to be revenants and instead be glowy floaty little angel-ghosts who try to inspire hope and perserverance. Blegh, leave the paladin crap to Lathander, I say.
It'd be nice to see a Goddess of Magic actually be the powerful competent aggressor and force her enemies to cower and band together if they want a chance to survive. [/rant] |
| The Sage |
Posted - 30 Mar 2011 : 01:37:57
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
How about the Revenant of Midnight? 
With her divine essence shattered, that small portion of Mystra that was Midnight reverted to mortal form, and now must be safe-gaurded by Kelemvor (after all, Midnight had a mortal soul, and it had to go somewhere, right?)
Not if the nature of her soul changed upon ascension...
Indeed. We know so little about the dynamics of divine ascension in the Realms. I can't easily assume that it doesn't in some way impact upon the soul of a mortal who ascends... in order to accommodate the greater spiritual demands of an entire Material Plane. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 29 Mar 2011 : 23:37:34
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
How about the Revenant of Midnight?
With her divine essence shattered, that small portion of Mystra that was Midnight reverted to mortal form, and now must be safe-gaurded by Kelemvor (after all, Midnight had a mortal soul, and it had to go somewhere, right?)
Not if the nature of her soul changed upon ascension... |
| Markustay |
Posted - 29 Mar 2011 : 22:12:58
How about the Revenant of Midnight?
With her divine essence shattered, that small portion of Mystra that was Midnight reverted to mortal form, and now must be safe-gaurded by Kelemvor (after all, Midnight had a mortal soul, and it had to go somewhere, right?) |
| Brimstone |
Posted - 29 Mar 2011 : 09:34:17
I was thinking of making the Raven Queen, Mystra herself, under the protection of Kelemvor. Her Revanents now seek the death of Cyric and Shar. |
| Ayrik |
Posted - 29 Mar 2011 : 04:48:01
I'm not disputing RQ's presence or merit in 4E/PoL ... it is written in canon, and thus so it must be.
I'm just sayin' that she isn't as easily imported into the "Auld Realms" as I'd initially thought. More correctly, she's an easy import but completely nonviable, serves no meaningful purpose. Besides, I personally think even my lame vulture-baatezu concept (earlier in this scroll) is better than (at least to me) the rather unexciting and overdone raven-psychopomp-messenger notion. There's plenty of hot succubus-fiend sorts who could body-double for RQ if I ever need her in some future module. |
| Markustay |
Posted - 29 Mar 2011 : 02:31:55
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
I'm not so sure Orcus would see it that way. He did eventually triumph over that little "incident."
Besides, whats a little 'death' between gods? Especially Undead Gods LOL. 
Hey! What if Kiaransalee IS the Raven Queen?
A little odd, I know, but only at the surface. They both have 'Feyish' origins (Elves... Fey... same difference), and it could just be her Faerūnian aspect was only worshiped by drow, who painted her as another drow (going back to my 'people see what they expect to see' theory again). The fact that the official canon surrounding her is making her seem more and more 'unstable' lends itself nicely to this (she's got a REAL BAD case of multiple-personality disorder). I can think of several canonical examples of faithful being of different alignments based upon what aspect of a god they worship. If they think she's a Drow (and she very well could be - deities can change their appearance), then they would assign drow-like traits to her.
Auril is another possibility, but she's already the Queen of air & Darkness (an Archfey), and she really isn't that important setting-wise to be giving her all this extra attention post-4e. Note that all of these beings (AND Lolth/Auraushnee) have Fey/Eleven origins - there are all sorts of cool connections we could make if we wanted to. 
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Diffan
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Actually, Kelemvor might be inclined to aid the revenant... While Kelemvor does have a thing against undead, he also understand that some undead have a mission, and has his followers either ignore those undead or assist them in their mission. So a revenant might well find himself aided by Kelemvor, because that aid helps the revenant complete its mission and find a permanent death that much quicker.
But what if the Revenant finishes his/her mission and now wants a new chance at their life? Or is fearful of "true" death and wants to stay in the undead state of a Revenant? I'm sure Kelemvorites would have a problem then to be sure. Could be a good sub-plot for a PC....hmmm....
Unless revenants have changed in 4E, they only stick around long enough to accomplish their mission (usually revenge for their murder). Once they've done the deed, they crumble away.
HOWEVER, if the OP wants to write an interesting story about one (or two), would it not be MORE intriguing to have them complete their task... and NOT disappear?
Then they'd have to figure-out what they are really supposed to do (kinda like Quantum Leap). |
| Rhewtani |
Posted - 29 Mar 2011 : 02:25:36
quote:
Originally posted by Chosen of Asmodeus
Thing is, she isn't redundant in 4e core. She is the death god. She killed the last one before mortal memory. There is no other. The winter goddess is also dead, which is how Raven Queen got the portfolio to begin with. Now, she'd be three kinds of redundant in the realms, but within Points of Light, she's it.
There's a concept for you that would keep the jobs from killing each other: the portfolios of the dead gods going to the god of death, as opposed to going to the usurper. |
| The Sage |
Posted - 29 Mar 2011 : 01:11:28
quote:
Originally posted by tradwitch1313
Has everyone forgottenthat Kiaransalee is thenumber one enemy of Orcus? The only one who actually killed him?
I'm not so sure Orcus would see it that way. He did eventually triumph over that little "incident." |
| sfdragon |
Posted - 28 Mar 2011 : 23:08:00
what is this LAdy Penitent TRiology you speak of?
I know of no such trilogy.. |
| Aryalómė |
Posted - 28 Mar 2011 : 22:55:45
Lol, let's not aply the Lady Penitent Trilogy here XD |
| Diffan |
Posted - 28 Mar 2011 : 22:53:58
quote:
Originally posted by tradwitch1313
Has everyone forgottenthat Kiaransalee is thenumber one enemy of Orcus? The only one who actually killed him?
Kiaransalee-who? . Its like I have no memory of this deity what-so-ever!
And I think Markus has the right of it. I've felt she has a good niche in my Realmspace as Kelemvore's comsort and an Exarch of Fate and Death. So's also more tolerant of undead and unusal shadowy people. She's also seen some reverence from Netherese and Shades that have turned their back on Shar. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 28 Mar 2011 : 22:45:53
quote:
Originally posted by Diffan
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Actually, Kelemvor might be inclined to aid the revenant... While Kelemvor does have a thing against undead, he also understand that some undead have a mission, and has his followers either ignore those undead or assist them in their mission. So a revenant might well find himself aided by Kelemvor, because that aid helps the revenant complete its mission and find a permanent death that much quicker.
But what if the Revenant finishes his/her mission and now wants a new chance at their life? Or is fearful of "true" death and wants to stay in the undead state of a Revenant? I'm sure Kelemvorites would have a problem then to be sure. Could be a good sub-plot for a PC....hmmm....
Unless revenants have changed in 4E, they only stick around long enough to accomplish their mission (usually revenge for their murder). Once they've done the deed, they crumble away. |
| Aryalómė |
Posted - 28 Mar 2011 : 22:29:59
Has everyone forgottenthat Kiaransalee is thenumber one enemy of Orcus? The only one who actually killed him? |
| Markustay |
Posted - 28 Mar 2011 : 21:10:10
quote:
Originally posted by Arik
Redundant goddess of death + Redundant goddess of winter + Unneeded goddess of revenants = 0 points.
Divine enemy of Orcus = 1 point. One could say this, too, is a redundant function since Orcus has many enemies, but hey, Orcus has many enemies. Is there more to this conflict? If it's only because "Orcus seeks to claim the throne" then I say let him have it and get rid of this puny Raven girl.
I must say that "hold no pity for those who suffer", "bring down the proud who try to cast off the chains", etc certainly seems like a dogma (or at least a way of propagating it) which quite definitely falls within my definition of evil.
lol, I dinna find this character appealing anymore. Unless one needs a conveniently evil little goddess for the PCs to kill.
BUUUUUUT, as a deity within the sub-setting Zakhara, she fits just fine. Her portfolio of 'Fate' fits there nicely, they have no 'Winter Deity' (for obvious reasons), and they also (strangely) have no death god (I suppose their concept of 'fate' alleviates the need for one).
Or, conversely, they may have 'lost' their death-god when the faith of Thasmudyan was chased from the mainland (CBoN).
Either way, we have several precedents within canon lore of redundant deities - usually, but not always, within sub-settings - so if someone wanted to use the Raven Queen, without violating too much FR canon, just stick her in a corner somewhere, like Zahara. That would be pre-SP (Spellplague), and now in the new, anything-goes world of 4e, DMs can say whatever they want. With Ao 'gone missing', and the great Cosmic Order being realigned, perhaps the Raven Queen has finally decided to make her big move in Realmspace, and start muscling-in on other god's portfolios.
If there is one thing we should have learned from the past three years and all that has 'gone down', it's that lore should NEVER be subtractive in nature, only additive. The Raven Queen may not be the best 'fit' for everyone's Realms, but better to have the option, then to have some source say "she absolutely, positively, has NO presence within Realmspace". That is subtractive-style lore, and only hurts the game and it's fans in the long run.
Besides, in another thread, Wooly already pointed-out the spell that anyone can get, which allows you to receive spells from ANY deity within ANY setting (except maybe Athas... and Eberron... OH! and Ravenloft LOL....). That means, unless you are in a closed Sphere/Plane, you can use any deity you want. For instance, Iuz the Old (Greyhawk) has a canon connection to The Realms, through Graz'zt; he is Graz'zt's offspirng with Iggwilv, and as we know, Graz'zt kidnapped Waukeen (amongst other things). That means although we have no lore connecting Iuz directly to FR, we do through a third a party, and that means he becomes canon as part of the greater 'D&D Over-setting'. |
| Chosen of Asmodeus |
Posted - 28 Mar 2011 : 19:31:42
Thing is, she isn't redundant in 4e core. She is the death god. She killed the last one before mortal memory. There is no other. The winter goddess is also dead, which is how Raven Queen got the portfolio to begin with. Now, she'd be three kinds of redundant in the realms, but within Points of Light, she's it. |
| Diffan |
Posted - 28 Mar 2011 : 19:18:04
quote:
Originally posted by Arik
Redundant goddess of death + Redundant goddess of winter + Unneeded goddess of revenants = 0 points.
Divine enemy of Orcus = 1 point. One could say this, too, is a redundant function since Orcus has many enemies, but hey, Orcus has many enemies. Is there more to this conflict? If it's only because "Orcus seeks to claim the throne" then I say let him have it and get rid of this puny Raven girl.
I must say that "hold no pity for those who suffer", "bring down the proud who try to cast off the chains", etc certainly seems like a dogma (or at least a way of propagating it) which quite definitely falls within my definition of evil.
lol, I dinna find this character appealing anymore. Unless one needs a conveniently evil little goddess for the PCs to kill.
All well and good, as I do most of the fluff myself and make the deity what I feel adds best to my own Realms. I've found the whole evil-undead = BBEG thing so overredundant and cliche to make my eyes rolling. The whole Grim Reaper thing is boring and over-played that both Vecna, Nerull, and Velsharoon could all be the same darn deity and no would would ever really notice.
At least the Raven Queen has a different spin on her take of Undead and doesn't plan on using them to dominate the planet like most other Undead deities and Demons. In addition, I actually like the Raven aspect as they're historically known to be the Messengers of the dead and not just scary, carrior birds. I'm just saying, people can make it what they will.
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Actually, Kelemvor might be inclined to aid the revenant... While Kelemvor does have a thing against undead, he also understand that some undead have a mission, and has his followers either ignore those undead or assist them in their mission. So a revenant might well find himself aided by Kelemvor, because that aid helps the revenant complete its mission and find a permanent death that much quicker.
But what if the Revenant finishes his/her mission and now wants a new chance at their life? Or is fearful of "true" death and wants to stay in the undead state of a Revenant? I'm sure Kelemvorites would have a problem then to be sure. Could be a good sub-plot for a PC....hmmm.... |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 28 Mar 2011 : 18:23:38
quote:
Originally posted by Diffan
I don't think she only focuses on 1 type of undead (aka Revenants) but I think she has a closer affinity for them because they're not exclusively Evil. I'm sure she's venerated by non-evil undead creatures such as Baelnorns (non-FR ones anyways) as well as Arch Liches (it is an Epic Destiny for PCs) and non-evil Necromancers and Nethermancers (previewed in the Heroes of Shadow supplement) as well as other "shadowy" non-evil characters.
Well, as I have admitted, I'm quite unfamiliar with her. 
quote:
Originally posted by Diffan
This supplement should help flesh-out (pun intended) her more devoted followers, as well as those she favores and those she doesn't. This is why I enjoy having her in my Realms. Kelemvor wouldn't stand for Revenants even if he does Arch Liches and Baelnorns. And with the addition of the Shade race for PCs and the Vampire class for PCs, well they can't all be evil right? So who would a non-evil Vampire worship if he's so inclined to do so? I'd say it wouldn't be Kelemvore and certainily wouldn't be a good-aligned deity like Torm, Ilmater, or Chauntea. Most likely, they're best bet is the Raven Queen.
Actually, Kelemvor might be inclined to aid the revenant... While Kelemvor does have a thing against undead, he also understand that some undead have a mission, and has his followers either ignore those undead or assist them in their mission. So a revenant might well find himself aided by Kelemvor, because that aid helps the revenant complete its mission and find a permanent death that much quicker. |
| Ayrik |
Posted - 28 Mar 2011 : 17:50:50
Redundant goddess of death + Redundant goddess of winter + Unneeded goddess of revenants = 0 points.
Divine enemy of Orcus = 1 point. One could say this, too, is a redundant function since Orcus has many enemies, but hey, Orcus has many enemies. Is there more to this conflict? If it's only because "Orcus seeks to claim the throne" then I say let him have it and get rid of this puny Raven girl.
I must say that "hold no pity for those who suffer", "bring down the proud who try to cast off the chains", etc certainly seems like a dogma (or at least a way of propagating it) which quite definitely falls within my definition of evil.
lol, I dinna find this character appealing anymore. Unless one needs a conveniently evil little goddess for the PCs to kill. |
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