| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Aryalómė |
Posted - 21 Feb 2011 : 22:06:51
Ok, so I am writinv a Drow story that is canon and I want everyone's opinions, criticism, helpful ideas, and infoming me if I am off canon.
So this is the basic outline of the story:
The third House of Menzoberranzzan, House Zanzifae, secretly worships Shar, which it is against the law of Menzoberranzzan to worship any other deity than Lolth, and they want to make their own city in the Underdark or take control of Menzoberranzzan. The main characters are:
Quarfein (kw-are-fayn) Zanzifae; wizard and secondboy of his house
Kilamia Zanifae (kee-lahm-ee-uh) Zanzifae; cleric of Shar (disguised as one of Lolth's clerics), she is visited by Shar in her dreams and informs the House of Shar's comandments
Matron Xilea (zI-lee-uh) Zanzifae-Matron of House Zanzifae, cleric of Shar, and sorceress
Phaural (faux-rol) Baenre; ranger of House Baenre lover of Quarfein, eventual cleric of Shar (or may not a cleric, I don't know yet).
Please tell me what you think and keep me canon wise!! |
| 30 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| Aryalómė |
Posted - 23 Feb 2011 : 03:21:17
quote:
Originally posted by Alystra Illianniis
quote:
Originally posted by Erdrick Stormedge
Eh, you mean a God of Stealthing should be unable to infiltrate a divine realm? That is dumber than anything I've ever heard!
Erdrick, That's not what I meant at all. Let's just say I think it would be much harder for even ONE deity to "sneak" into another's domain than that, much less three of them. Even a god of thieves isn't completely immune to being detected. I'll leave it at that.
TW, if you want to use a different deity, you could use Vaerhaun. Yes, he's technically dead, but as we've seen with Mystra, gods can be resurrected, and it's conceivable that he could be brought back by his followers. (And it would make for some great story ideas- the House could be a family of Masked Traitors!)
But he's evil though...... I'm probably gonna go with Mystra, she's prettymucj like them. And aligent really is only all lawful, all neutral, and chaotic neutral/good. House Zanzifae sorta could be considered evil, in that they enslavecreatures that the hate (goblin kind, orcs, other creatures like them and enmes though they are rare because they could plot a revolt). But they really are just plain neutral and good (not sickeningly good, but a dark kond ofgood). |
| Alystra Illianniis |
Posted - 23 Feb 2011 : 02:47:10
quote:
Originally posted by Erdrick Stormedge
Eh, you mean a God of Stealthing should be unable to infiltrate a divine realm? That is dumber than anything I've ever heard!
Erdrick, That's not what I meant at all. Let's just say I think it would be much harder for even ONE deity to "sneak" into another's domain than that, much less three of them. Even a god of thieves isn't completely immune to being detected. I'll leave it at that.
TW, if you want to use a different deity, you could use Vaerhaun. Yes, he's technically dead, but as we've seen with Mystra, gods can be resurrected, and it's conceivable that he could be brought back by his followers. (And it would make for some great story ideas- the House could be a family of Masked Traitors!) |
| Aryalómė |
Posted - 23 Feb 2011 : 01:19:04
quote:
Originally posted by Therise
Oh my lawd... I really need to restrict my offhand commentary. Save me Tom Cruise!
BWAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!  |
| Aryalómė |
Posted - 23 Feb 2011 : 01:16:58
So, I was readong the FR wiki and it said Mystra might have been ressurected....again. I hope that she has and doesn't get killed......again.House Zanzifae you may be in luck!!!! Plus, how would I be able to shield their true pracises and soce they are a thrid House, they had to get Lolth's favor. Any ideas? They mostly just pay lip service to te Spider Queen. |
| Therise |
Posted - 23 Feb 2011 : 00:19:19
Oh my lawd... I really need to restrict my offhand commentary. Save me Tom Cruise!
|
| Erdrick Stormedge |
Posted - 22 Feb 2011 : 22:33:42
quote:
Originally posted by tradwitch1313
If Mystra isn't lawful, I'll more than likely use her. But the problem is that she's dead.
Check out 'Elminster Must Die!', by Ed Greenwood. It takes place in the Year of the Ageless One (1479DR). |
| Aryalómė |
Posted - 22 Feb 2011 : 22:05:21
I can't stress howmuch I do NOT want Eillistraee. She's too much of goodness and light and mercy and helping the needy. House Zanzifae is not one of those types. They are cruel, merciless, and saddistic to their enemies. They alsoare racist to many non-fae races. They get along with all of te fae races tht will deal with them. They get along with Aasimars, Tieflings, Genasi, and tolerate humans barely. They don't allow humans in ther cities, only on the out skirts or on the outside of the walls. If Mystra isn't lawful, I'll more than likely use her. But the problem is that she's dead. |
| Synthalus |
Posted - 22 Feb 2011 : 21:00:52
(Gargauth)
also known as the "Tenth Lord of Nine," the "Lost Lord of the Pit," and the "Hidden Lord," is the deity of betrayal, cruelty, political corruption, and powerbrokers. He embodies the inevitable decay and corruption that accompanies all self-serving, greedy, and power-hungry leaders and groups. He shows a veneer of civility and compassion whenever encountered, and he relishes in twisting a contract with someone to serve his own ends by holding only to the letter of the agreement. Gargauth is a master strategist, and his sense of humor moderates his temper. He uses his followers, who constantly seek to increase their personal power, to act as his eyes and ears throughout Faerun. He also has them entice and corrupt powerful individuals and bind them into strict contracts.
I dont know how love would factor in but i'm sure you could find a way to bend a rule or two! Or a contract for that matter?
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| Markustay |
Posted - 22 Feb 2011 : 20:21:27
As I said ABOVE, I had THREE paragraphs PROVING my claim that powers HAVE been bested in their own domains, time and again (especially when there were no less then two artifacts involved that had 'deep connections' to Mystra).
I chose to delete them and respect Woolys suggestion, and also keep the thread OT.
If the mods don't mind someone creating another thread, pertaining to the proof that such an event could have happened (quite easily, actually, when you start gathering the facts), then I would submit my proof (which I probably should have saved somewhere, rather then deleted). Unfortunately those threads tend to slide downhill rather quickly. 
Damn... I just did it again, and once again erased what I had. Too much emotional baggage still attached to the Spellague/4e 'lore' (I even hesitate calling it lore... sheesh...)
I am trying to move on, as we all should. Editions have no place here at the 'keep - this is about a setting, not editions. |
| Erdrick Stormedge |
Posted - 22 Feb 2011 : 20:00:24
Eh, you mean a God of Stealthing should be unable to infiltrate a divine realm? That is dumber than anything I've ever heard!
Markustay, are you saying then there is no canon evidence to support you claim of powers being inviolate in their divine realms? |
| Alystra Illianniis |
Posted - 22 Feb 2011 : 19:52:53
quote:
Originally posted by Erdrick Stormedge
And on at least one occasion, more than one power ganged up on another power and killed it.... point, Alystra?
My point was that it would almost HAVE to take a whole group of them "ganging up" on her in her home plane, and even then, it's not guaranteed. And how did they manage to slip in without her noticing, anyway? to me, THAT seems like the most ridiculous part. And if she invited them in, then it was doubly dumb on her part. You DON'T let your three worst enemies in through the front door...... (Mind, I've not been able to read the relevant books on that one, so I'm going on what little I've seen posted on the subject here.) It just doesn't make any sense. At least Vaerhaun's case DID. (Except that if he'd had any brains, he would have remembered daddy's warning about what would happen if he so much as touched her. Guess he forgot.) |
| Markustay |
Posted - 22 Feb 2011 : 19:17:42
Sorry...
After re-reading that it sounds like I was being a bit antagonistic, which is not how I meant it.
I actually had another three paragraphs here, but all of that has been dealt with before, numerous times. I just want to say it wasn't the outcome that is questionable - ALL of it can be explained - it was the rather uninspired presentation (or lack there of).
On-Topic:
But Shar is, was, and will be pivotal in the Realms, and her nature is clearly defined in canon. On the other hand, I also said she will allow people to believe whatever it suits her for them to believe, so tradwitch's scenario is certainly possible (as is Wooly's, or even both, which would suit her dark sense of humor). |
| Erdrick Stormedge |
Posted - 22 Feb 2011 : 18:56:08
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
We prolly don't need to have that discussion again.
I haven't had this conversation before, would it be ok with you, Scribe Rupert, if I and any scribes so inclined had it? |
| Erdrick Stormedge |
Posted - 22 Feb 2011 : 18:52:53
And on at least one occasion, more than one power ganged up on another power and killed it.... point, Alystra?
Markustay, what canon evidence do you have which indicates the powers are inviolate on their home planes? |
| Alystra Illianniis |
Posted - 22 Feb 2011 : 18:40:13
Wasn't commenting on editions, just pointing out that in at least one instance, a deity TRIED to kill another on their home plane, and failed- miserably. |
| Markustay |
Posted - 22 Feb 2011 : 18:22:26
AGREED.
We know from past canon that deities CAN be tricked by other deities - Cyric was walking around with Mask in his hands, for Crisakes! 
So lets not go on about which edition 'ruined' the Realms - if anything, the Realms are a pile of contradictions built on top of a mountain of enigmas. Part of the logic of Ed's setting is that for 'uber ability', there is some sort of counter for it - complete and total balance.
So while a deity is supposed to be inviolate within it's own divine Realm, we know from past lore this simply isn't the case. In Cloak of Shadows we have a mortal - a VERY powerful Malaugryn, but mortal none-the-less - psionically eavesdropping on Bane's mind! I can think of dozens of other examples wherein gods - thinking themselves 'untouchable' within their own realms - were spied on, visited, accosted, and even killed... without their permission, mind you (which shouldn't be possible).
Hence, another 'Divine Lie' revieled; deities are exponentially powerful within their own domains, but NOT invulnerable!!!
How many times in past Realms history have gods gone after other gods (and Archfiends)? We have tons of examples, and not all of them were caught outside their own territory: there is always a loophole that can be exploited.
As for Shar, Not Ed nor anyone else is going to change her. She is not just a 'goddess of darkness', she is SO much more then that, and her existence is part of the very fabric & foundation Realmspace (and elsewhere?) is built upon. You are not asking them to change the Realms, you are asking them to change the entire D&D multiverse - Note the Spellplague and it's repercussions sent 'shockwaves' throughout the known planes, changing them and the deities considerably (Asmodeus, anyone?) You are asking 8 billion people to change their minds about something so your story will work.
Okay... maybe not everyone plays D&D... but you get the point...
Eilistraee is who you are after - she suits what you want to do. Shar is NOT 'nice', nor ever will be. She tolerates mortals (and gods) to live so she can use them, until such a time as she can destroy them all. That's HER DEAL.
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| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 22 Feb 2011 : 18:03:16
We prolly don't need to have that discussion again. |
| Alystra Illianniis |
Posted - 22 Feb 2011 : 16:51:24
Yeah, but on her HOME PLANE??!! That's almost as dumb as Vaerhaun thinking he could whack his sister one HER home plane. And we saw what happened to HIM...... |
| Erdrick Stormedge |
Posted - 22 Feb 2011 : 16:02:31
Oh, indeed! Totally mind blowing to think that a God of Murder, in allegiance with the Goddess of Entropy, in allegiance with the God of Assassins, would be able to pull off a murder.... I mean, that is 3 powers v.1 power... buy Mystra is solo unerring pwnage it just couldn't be....
quote:
Originally posted by Therise
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Therise
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Unless Shar secretly slew and replaced Lolth during the latter's Silence... 
Eilistraee would've noticed. 
Maybe not... During the Avatar Crisis, Shar made Selūne believe that an imposter -- Shar! -- was the real Selūne. If she can make her enemy doubt her own identity, fooling the wayward (and considerably less-powerful) offspring of an impersonated deity shouldn't be too difficult.
As you said, that was during the Avatar crisis, when all the gods were reduced to mortal avatars (with mortal senses, etc). I'd think it's one thing to fool a mortal, quite another to fool a deity with their full godly abilities intact.
Then again, this is the new D&D where Mystra can get tricked and killed from behind on her home plane. So what do I know, really?
"Cyric, Shar... you wanna come over for tea? Sure, sure thing."
"Mystra, LOOK OVER THERE!"
WHACK!
|
| Therise |
Posted - 22 Feb 2011 : 14:50:27
You know, the more I think about it also... having a loving family in the midst of a drow city would be a form of insanity. It might actually suit her evil core to do such a thing. Because either the loving family has to lose, or Lolth has to lose, or Menzoberranzan has to lose. So loss is guaranteed no matter what. And it would fit her sense of dark irony in some ways. Shar would get to laugh all the way to the bank, no matter what happens. A lot of damage will be done. And it's sorta sick and twisted, which is right up her alley.
Heck, it could even be Lolth, pretending to be Shar, and doing the whole thing for kicks. Perhaps because she wants to teach her faithful in Menzoberranzan yet another lesson about the futility of love. |
| Chosen of Asmodeus |
Posted - 22 Feb 2011 : 14:23:56
Honestly I don't expect much more competence than that out of Midnightstra.
Anyway, the more I think about it the less I'm inclined to rule out Shar, even including the loving family. I doubt very many people hold completely to every aspect of their patron's faith. There are even chosen who don't.
It's no secret, even among her faithful, that Lolth is to sanity what Demogorgon is to having a single head, and that she actively screws with her faithful for no other reason than her own amusement. A fed up house could look for any other alternative and decide that Shar is "close enough" to what they want in a goddess. |
| Therise |
Posted - 22 Feb 2011 : 14:17:01
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Therise
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Unless Shar secretly slew and replaced Lolth during the latter's Silence...
Eilistraee would've noticed.
Maybe not... During the Avatar Crisis, Shar made Selūne believe that an imposter -- Shar! -- was the real Selūne. If she can make her enemy doubt her own identity, fooling the wayward (and considerably less-powerful) offspring of an impersonated deity shouldn't be too difficult.
As you said, that was during the Avatar crisis, when all the gods were reduced to mortal avatars (with mortal senses, etc). I'd think it's one thing to fool a mortal, quite another to fool a deity with their full godly abilities intact.
Then again, this is the new D&D where Mystra can get tricked and killed from behind on her home plane. So what do I know, really?
"Cyric, Shar... you wanna come over for tea? Sure, sure thing."
"Mystra, LOOK OVER THERE!"
WHACK!
|
| Erdrick Stormedge |
Posted - 22 Feb 2011 : 13:19:51
If 'Ye wish for Ye're home brew to jive with canon, Sharan clergy with loving family lives are out. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 22 Feb 2011 : 05:45:42
quote:
Originally posted by Therise
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Unless Shar secretly slew and replaced Lolth during the latter's Silence...
Eilistraee would've noticed.
Maybe not... During the Avatar Crisis, Shar made Selūne believe that an imposter -- Shar! -- was the real Selūne. If she can make her enemy doubt her own identity, fooling the wayward (and considerably less-powerful) offspring of an impersonated deity shouldn't be too difficult. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 22 Feb 2011 : 04:03:23
quote:
Originally posted by tradwitch1313
I am in total mental conflict right.....I'm actualyy gerting a headache XC. Maybe I could ask Ed? I want a dark deity but one who accepts love and believes in loyalty and workng sorking together. Shar just kinda seemed that way. Maybe Ed could alter her a bit? (like that'll ever happen) If anyone can think of any evil/unaligned/good deities that are dark and non sexist and is canonical, please me know.
Even if Ed wanted to change Shar, he can't -- she's owned by WotC, and changing her would not only be a retcon, it'd be a retcon that would invalidate part of their current focus with the Realms.
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| Alystra Illianniis |
Posted - 22 Feb 2011 : 03:31:53
For the record, Eilistraee is not as "sexist" as many think. Even before she killed Vaerhaun, she was starting to let males enter her clergy, and promoting equality between the sexes. (See the Demihuman Deities book from 2nd ed for some lore on this.) She also has a ritual for males called the Changedance, which turns them female for a short time. (Usually just for a ritual so they can join fully, or sometimes for several months to better understand the female perspective.) It would be easy to use a reverse of this for females as well, so that both sexes can better understand the other. Perhaps they might even use some of those old Girdles of Gender Reversal that have been floating around in D&D for decades now, and put them to good use. As the Masked Lady, she makes a great foil to Lolth, and the idea of love and equality fits right in with her dogma- much more so than Shar's. Perhaps, you could use he gender-bending as a way of turning drow away from Lolth, showing that she is much more willing to accept ALL drow in her church, which would also give many males something to strive fore.
The only problem I see with using a god like Tiamat, is that she has little to do with drow in the first place. She doesn't have much to offer them that other gods don't already. |
| Aryalómė |
Posted - 22 Feb 2011 : 02:44:08
I am in total mental conflict right.....I'm actualyy gerting a headache XC. Maybe I could ask Ed? I want a dark deity but one who accepts love and believes in loyalty and workng sorking together. Shar just kinda seemed that way. Maybe Ed could alter her a bit? (like that'll ever happen) If anyone can think of any evil/unaligned/good deities that are dark and non sexist and is canonical, please me know. |
| Kuje |
Posted - 22 Feb 2011 : 02:36:29
You could also have them venerate one of the elven deities.... After all, Lloth and her offspring where part of the elven pantheon at one time since she was one of Corellon's wives and he is father of her offspring.... |
| Markustay |
Posted - 22 Feb 2011 : 02:20:34
Gods seek worship, plain and simple, because they need it to empower themselves (only a part of which is provided by their portfolio).
That means that Shar WILL let her followers believe whatever the hell they want about her, so long as she continues to get 'the juice' from them. In fact, most of her faithful probably have no idea her ultimate end-goal is to see them all dead.
Gods lie, its a canonical fact, in order to further their portfolios. Even the good ones do it. Mystra's priests espouse the notion that she is the goddess of ALL magic (an untruth), and Oghma's church allows certain (harmful) knowledge to remain hidden, despite their tenets against such a thing.
Thanks to Quale's suggestion in another thread, I've been reading through some of the old-school D&D cosmology lore, and interestig to see how it evolved into its current form, and you can also see where Ed drew from for some his home campaign (like 'the Watching Gods'). Deities are little more then uber-powerful immortals who have learned a trick or two about the inner workings of the cosmos.
Anyhow, what that means is that mortals rarely know the truth of such matters, not just because "the Gods lie", but also because the powers-that-be don't know everything themselves (and don't care to admit that).
As to how this pertains to the OT - I think Wooly had a brilliant suggestion as to how all of this could be (I never thought about Lolth's silence, and her later emergence as a Greater deity - intriguing line of reasoning). I always thought Mask should be an alias of Vhaeraun... perhaps he was replaced himself, LONG ago.
Maybe that's the right of it after all (thinking on that alternate Realms thread someone just resurrected) - whenever two similar powers enter the same sphere, they either split their portfolios so there is no overlap (which may have happened with Tyr), or more commonly, enter into conflict (that could last centuries and involve mortal churches) until one absorbs the other.
Shar 'ate' Ibrandul during the ToT (where the Black Chronology began, BTW), and a few other ebil underdark powers were killed with the advent of the spellplague (the Dwarves), so if we take this as a sign that Shar wanted complete control of all of Toril's 'dark places', then it actually makes perfect sense for her to go after Lolth as well; she was the 'big gun' of Faerūn's Underdark deities.
So let your Zanzifae worship Shar while the others remain true to 'Lolth', but somewhere in the darkness there is laughter behind their backs. |
| Fellfire |
Posted - 22 Feb 2011 : 01:51:47
Kiaransalee, the Vengeful Banshee. Drow Goddess of Disproportionate Retribution. Answer any slight a thousandfold...
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