| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Aryalómë |
Posted - 15 Feb 2011 : 00:48:23
Sorry in advance f this has already been covered
I hae a good slew of questins and nagings about 4e I am dying to ask. Forst of all, what compelled wotc to "simlify" the pantheos of thd realms? The deities were one of theost eniatic forcws in all akd quite iconic. So why d tey decide to deciamte te row pamtjeon to that vile spider bit ch? I was among the many fnams who were quite pod when eillisraee was killed and a bit of minory when kiaransalee dd to. So, s it possible to worship a dead deity? I know kiaransalee's name was wiped from her follower's and everone's mind, but could it still be possible? Even t change Lathander went to was unnescesary. I preffered him as t ever yoyng morning-lord. Another question, how many times does wotc have to kill Mystra before theu're happy? I find this als very unnescessay. Ad one of everyone's favorite questions , race! So, I'm a tab bit confused. We all know the Aasimar , correct? Well, when. I was reading the FR PH, it said te degas are now te Aasiamr. I'm a bit stumped at this because I liked te Aasimar before, but don't get me wrong, I love the devas as well, but I want the Aasimar to still be around, maybe companojs to the Devas?
Well, that is about it fr now. I am truly sorry for the AWFULgrammar and spelling mistaies, I'm typing o a nook so it. not good choice to do so on. |
| 30 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| Alystra Illianniis |
Posted - 18 Feb 2011 : 04:47:50
Ah-HA!! Yep, that sounds right. I knew it sounded like twin or something. And Yeah, I knew there were some critters in Planescape too, but I remembered it being in that book because of the art for it. Was a simple B&W drawing , like all of the art in that book. My copy is in storage somewhere, I think, or I'd have looked it up. |
| Ayrik |
Posted - 18 Feb 2011 : 04:39:01
I think you're thinking of tween from 1E FF.
Planescape also had a few sorts of similarly quasi-symbiotic creatures (some of them beneficial, most not). |
| Alystra Illianniis |
Posted - 18 Feb 2011 : 04:10:52
Nope. This was some sort of minor creature in the original Fiend folio. Had a weird name I can't remember, and was more like a "shadow" of the character it mimicked, but operated in a sort of symbiotic relationship until one or the other died. But it was a virtual "twin" to its host. |
| Ayrik |
Posted - 18 Feb 2011 : 03:57:36
I think there used to be Gygax rules about characters moving around between worlds. Specifically, a character originally from Oerth who was on Toril was not "native"; thus subject to special rules about banishment, abjure, dismissal, and such stuff. I think that one could only be "native" of a single world, only by being born there or by living there for 50 years (every world-traveller was at least native of the last place they spent 50 years). Not that this rule ever came into play much, but when it did it was usually handwaved off since having some of your PCs/NPCs banished to another world by, say, a random low-level cleric performing a turning attempt would really make for sucky gameplay; this could take on ridiculous proportions when Spelljamming moved players around between worlds. I can't even recall which 1E/2E core sourcebook printed it, maybe it was even somewhere in the Spelljammer rules. In any event, it was an insignificant footnote and seemed to have been entirely forgotten/retconned by subsequent 2E Planescape definitions of primes and planars.)
Given this (or any similar) arbitrary sort of rule, the distinction might be made that a "native" of another world who dies in the Realms wouldn't be processed through the normal Fugue, but instead travel (or be taken) to whatever place would be normal for his "native" mythology. An immigrated "native" of the Realms (lived there at least 50 years before dying) who stubbornly refused to accept the Faerûnian pantheon would, I think, rightfully be termed Faithless.
Uh, you're thinking about doppelgangers, Alystra? |
| Alystra Illianniis |
Posted - 18 Feb 2011 : 02:20:54
That reminds me- do you remember that "twin" creature from the old Fiend Folio? It would show up and follow around one person, and change its appearance to look and move just like them. Can't remember what they were called.... |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 18 Feb 2011 : 02:16:40
quote:
Originally posted by Arik
It was argued that "minor" divine magics (ie, 1st and 2nd level priest spells) were technically fueled by the priest's unwavering inner faith, not provided by a higher power. This argument is fair enough but does have some flaws, such as why the priest necessarily needs to pray in the usual manner to gain "approval" for such magics. This is actually one wrinkle which 4E irons out quite well.
My way of looking at it was that 1st and 2nd level spells could be doled out without conscious effort by a deity. The cleric still has to ask for them, but the deity didn't have to think about delivering them. For spells of 3rd level and above, the deity actually had to pay attention.
It was actually the greater doppleganger that got me thinking of this. A mirrorkin that replaces a divine caster can still get 1st and 2nd level spells, but nothing higher. This is why I think that those spells are granted without thinking about it. |
| Alystra Illianniis |
Posted - 18 Feb 2011 : 02:10:05
That's all great, but it still doesn't answer the question of characters whose patron DON'T have a counterpart in the Realms. Specifically, a deity who is like a cross between Zeus and Helm. The closest are Bahamut and Talos/Helm (a mix), but The pali in question dislikes Bahamut, and can't worship both Talos and Helm,due to the conflicting alignments and focus. So what does a character like that do? Especially if they don't have the Contact Home Power spell? |
| Ayrik |
Posted - 18 Feb 2011 : 01:49:52
This intercosmic agreement was a central explanation for priests from Toril or Oerth being able to cast spells when visiting Krynn. Even so, the gods of Krynn are somewhat parochial and have limited tolerance for interlopers; foreign clergy wishing to become permanent residents would ultimately be forced to abandon their faith and accept a local power. Actively proselytizing an alien religion is an offense which meets responses ranging from suspicion and mockery (from the inhabitants) to divinely manifest censure and reprimand (from the jealously territorial gods).
It was argued that "minor" divine magics (ie, 1st and 2nd level priest spells) were technically fueled by the priest's unwavering inner faith, not provided by a higher power. This argument is fair enough but does have some flaws, such as why the priest necessarily needs to pray in the usual manner to gain "approval" for such magics. This is actually one wrinkle which 4E irons out quite well. |
| The Sage |
Posted - 18 Feb 2011 : 00:16:41
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Also, some deities had agreements with their counterparts from other spheres, and would grant spells to each other's followers.
Of course, it should be noted that only those deities who were willing to work with their counterparts, agree to this type of policy. I'd imagine there would be more than a few gods unwilling to share power or followers regardless of the circumstances, and would view worshippers on other worlds looking to worship a counterpart, as a betrayal. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 17 Feb 2011 : 23:13:56
In Spelljammer canon, priests could regain 1st and 2nd level spells in any sphere, even if their deity wasn't worshipped there. And contact home power (I think that was the name) was either a 1st or 2nd level spell that allowed the priest to "call home" and get his/her full allotment of spells.
Also, some deities had agreements with their counterparts from other spheres, and would grant spells to each other's followers. |
| Erdrick Stormedge |
Posted - 17 Feb 2011 : 21:06:24
The divine powers of Faerun allow the follows of deities of other planes to grant their worshipers spells. This is mentioned in numerous sources, though I'm not at my desk, atm...
quote:
Originally posted by Alystra Illianniis
Ah, MT, bless you! I remember that bit now, and now that I think about it, that brings up the question of what to do with transplanted PC's from otehr worlds whose deities have no influence in the Realms. Do THEY get spells? Why or why not? What happens when they die? I know that was touched on earlier, but not really to anyone's satisfaction. As I see it, ANYONE can gain spells from worshiping SOMETHING. Doesn't have to be a known god, but some Power somewhere would grant them divine power. Otherwise, there would not be so many druids and rangers who worship the forces of nature, but have no specific deity- which is one of the points where I think the notion of "no god = no spells and no afterlife" falls apart. For those who worship/follow an IDEAL, this would seem to be a first-class ticket to the Wall. I don't believe that for an instant. For one thing, it utterly contradicts all other aspects of the game. Back in 2nd ed, one didn't even NEED a deity to cast divine spells. It wasn't until 3rd that that became such a big requirement. I have to wonder why the sudden (and HUGE) change? so you want to give reverence to a potted plant? Fine, but don't expect to win many converts. but at least you can still cure the party's wounds!
As a side-note, I've got a pali I Rp that is in just that very situation. He is from another world (mine0 transplanted to Faerun, and worships a god who has NO FR analog. What to do? He's cut off from his deity COMPLETELY, and is too faithful to even consider switching to another. (He IS a paladin, after all!) Does he start up a church to his god? Ask for spells and hope he hears? How would a character in the Realms deal with this? It's basically the same situation as someone who follows a dead god- they have no "contact" to draw from, according to "that rule". Any thoughts?
|
| Alystra Illianniis |
Posted - 17 Feb 2011 : 21:03:42
Ah, MT, bless you! I remember that bit now, and now that I think about it, that brings up the question of what to do with transplanted PC's from otehr worlds whose deities have no influence in the Realms. Do THEY get spells? Why or why not? What happens when they die? I know that was touched on earlier, but not really to anyone's satisfaction. As I see it, ANYONE can gain spells from worshiping SOMETHING. Doesn't have to be a known god, but some Power somewhere would grant them divine power. Otherwise, there would not be so many druids and rangers who worship the forces of nature, but have no specific deity- which is one of the points where I think the notion of "no god = no spells and no afterlife" falls apart. For those who worship/follow an IDEAL, this would seem to be a first-class ticket to the Wall. I don't believe that for an instant. For one thing, it utterly contradicts all other aspects of the game. Back in 2nd ed, one didn't even NEED a deity to cast divine spells. It wasn't until 3rd that that became such a big requirement. I have to wonder why the sudden (and HUGE) change? so you want to give reverence to a potted plant? Fine, but don't expect to win many converts. but at least you can still cure the party's wounds!
As a side-note, I've got a pali I Rp that is in just that very situation. He is from another world (mine0 transplanted to Faerun, and worships a god who has NO FR analog. What to do? He's cut off from his deity COMPLETELY, and is too faithful to even consider switching to another. (He IS a paladin, after all!) Does he start up a church to his god? Ask for spells and hope he hears? How would a character in the Realms deal with this? It's basically the same situation as someone who follows a dead god- they have no "contact" to draw from, according to "that rule". Any thoughts? |
| Erdrick Stormedge |
Posted - 17 Feb 2011 : 20:59:32
Great posts, Therise! You really hit ever mark spot-on, and back up every point with canon support!
These are the types of posts I love to see on Candlekeep; well thought out, with a references and citation. It is so nice to see someone diverge from pointless speculation and dig into the real 'meat and potatoes' of the setting!
Again, fantastic. |
| Therise |
Posted - 17 Feb 2011 : 20:43:06
quote:
Originally posted by Alystra Illianniis
No, Therise, frankly I'm just tired of getting everything I say that you disagree with shot down summarily without even a hint of a "yes, okay, that is possible" consideration. So, I'm sorry if you disagree so completely, but that is NO reason to simply say "you're wrong, you're wrong, you're wrong" at every point I try to make. And I'd really just rather not try to beat my head against a brick wall on it anymore. So I'm conceding the field to you out of sheer annoyance and frustration. Because I can't stand it when people won't even LOOK at another point of view. Even when it's perfectle reasonable and does not even entirely ocntradict their own! Thank you for an interesting debate, but it's run its course, and clearly, you can't accept anything I try to say, so I'm dropping it before it gets out of hand. THAT'S why I posted that above. My apologies for the "snark" effect, but I was getting seriously annoyed.
Well, let me apologize as well (at least for the frustration) and perhaps explain a bit about my intentions. Even if it might seem so, in no way do I really want to frustrate people. The last thing I want to do, honestly, is generate any negative feelings. If I've done that, I'm sorry and it was never my intent. Either in this thread or any other one.
However, I am a feisty girl who loves debate and I love finding facts and using subtle points of logic in any debate. It's how I'm trained in my work, actually. There's a bit of fun involved when you can nail down an argument in such a way. But I don't see debates as personal investments, and win or lose it's just a debate and nothing more. Sometimes, I've even taken up a side that I don't agree with and still work to win the debate. That's just part of being a classic debater, and it's never meant personally.
Most of the time, the canon Realms has really clear rules, and a lot of them really suck hard when it comes to implementing them in game. If I drag out some obscure fact about the ToT and use it in my debate, it doesn't mean that this I view it as the only right way to play the game. In fact, my own Realms is pretty much classic 1E with a few tidbits imported from 2E and 3E... because I really can't stand a lot of the crazy rules (or the logical conclusions that follow those rules) which have found their way into canon Realms.
An example of this is that I never had a ToT in my Realms, so much of the subsequent history has been different. Another one is that I don't have a Wall that PCs can see, nor can players who visit any godly domain ever actually see dead petitioners after they cross "beyond the veil" of death. You can go to Myrkul's Realm in my game, but you'd never meet Myrkul (or any other god face-to-face) while still alive. And you'd only see petitioner-spirits up to the point where they transition from the fugue plane into the unknown beyond. The afterlife really is an unknown in my game. If raised from the dead, a PC will remember almost nothing of their experience.
But I don't use any of that when I debate canon stuff. Anyway, no hard feelings, eh? I never meant to generate any, with anyone.
Except Wooly. Because it's fun to squeeze hamsters until they squeek.
KIDDING, I kid! I'm not advocating animal abuse. Or moderator abuse.
But I still do hate Misc. UNTIL THE END OF TIME. 
|
| Alystra Illianniis |
Posted - 17 Feb 2011 : 19:54:02
No, Therise, frankly I'm just tired of getting everything I say that you disagree with shot down summarily without even a hint of a "yes, okay, that is possible" consideration. So, I'm sorry if you disagree so completely, but that is NO reason to simply say "you're wrong, you're wrong, you're wrong" at every point I try to make. And I'd really just rather not try to beat my head against a brick wall on it anymore. So I'm conceding the field to you out of sheer annoyance and frustration. Because I can't stand it when people won't even LOOK at another point of view. Even when it's perfectle reasonable and does not even entirely ocntradict their own! Thank you for an interesting debate, but it's run its course, and clearly, you can't accept anything I try to say, so I'm dropping it before it gets out of hand. THAT'S why I posted that above. My apologies for the "snark" effect, but I was getting seriously annoyed.
-------------------------------
Diffan, at the time, 4th had just recently come out, so I don't believe any of that had been published yet. It was a Half-gold gragon/(gray) elf bard 2/pali 8, no dual wielding or such, but using the old 2nd ed rules for half dragons, which converted fairly well into 3rd. I no longer have his exact stats, becuase the 3.5 character sheet goterased by a player of mine who was looking for a sheet to use. Yes, I'm still cursing that one.... He uses a long sword and shield, had a 24 str and 20 dex, IIRC, 16 wis, and 18 char. those are the only ones I remember. He had the breath weapon, claws, and darkvision traits, also. He did have a few levels in a HB PrC for the deity I used for him (he's non-FR, based in a Hb world i created, with its own set of gods) It was sort of a cross between zeus and Helm/Torm, heavy on the justice and weather elements. Hope that hleps if you want to try to build something similar for 4th ed, but I've looked at enough of the 4th ed books to know that i will not be playing it again. Did not like the mechanics at all.
|
| Therise |
Posted - 17 Feb 2011 : 19:51:45
quote:
Originally posted by Alystra Illianniis
Tell you what- I'll let you "win" this arguement, since it seems to mean that much to you. You can be "right" this time, and save the rest of us the burden/troulbe of it. I guess those who disagree with you will just have to settle for being "wrong" this time. Happy?
Good grief. There's seriously no need for this level of snarky and overly dramatic incivility. But if you need to paint me as a big mean meanie, just because I counter your suppositions with references to the lore, whatever.
|
| Markustay |
Posted - 17 Feb 2011 : 19:26:46
MY theory is that divine power actually stems FROM WITHIN. All you need is faith.
I believe one of the designers called it 'the Potted plant' feat, wherein you could worship a potted plant if that made you happy (and still get divine spells!) It was supposed to take the place of no less then three feats that amounted to much the same thing (gotta love 3e for its uber-redundancy).
Please don't ask me for sources - search for it on the WotC site. So much good material was deleted from there with their THREE forum overhauls that I can no longer be bothered with that headache.
But it WAS there....
Anyhow, this idea isn't really new - back in 1e (and maybe 2e) you could worship concepts, but it was FR that actually changed all that. Strictly speaking, even in 'The Realms' (Realmspace) you could break the setting rules. According to SJ (IIRC), you could receive spells of up to 3rd level WITHOUT being in contact with your deity (I believe Ravenloft had a similar mechanic, but its been so long I could be off on both counts).
Thus proving the fallacy that you NEED a deity to receive spells. Gods LIE all the time - you think they want mortals to know about this loophole? The way I see all of that working (in 3e), WITHOUT the feat you can go up to 3rd level - humans possess enough 'inner strength' to accomplish this with their Faith. Once you get past level 3, however, you need a little something extra - the 'Potted-Plant Feat'. Mechanically it makes sense, and you can chalk the feat up to 'a breakthrough in Enlightenment' (or some bad chocolate... take your pick, doesn't matter). |
| Diffan |
Posted - 17 Feb 2011 : 18:43:10
quote:
Originally posted by Alystra Illianniis
You don't. I ran into this problem in my first (and LAST) 4th ed game. I tried to convert a Paladin I'd been playing since 2nd ed, and I could NOT translate him over. It simply did not work with the new rules. 3.5 was fine- Half-Dragons still existed with little change, and the bard levels he had before becoming a paladin fit just fine in that edition. But when I tried to convert him using the dragonborn and using the mix/match of 4th, he SUCKED. He was no longer playable for me, as it was not even remotely like the character I had originally created. Needless to say, it is the biggest reason why I stayed away from 4th. I could not convert my favorite characters without loosing half of what made them so much fun to play in the first place.
With regards to conversions, what rules did you have access to at the time? Meaning, did you know about Hybrids and the multitude of Multiclass options out there? What sources did you have access to? I ask because I really wanna try this conversion, if you'll let me. I'm not saying you have to use it, or even try it out, but for my own personal curosity I'd like a crack at it. If you wanna PM me the v3.5 stats, I'd give it a go.
But it's true, conversions are a tricky thing. Espically with uncommon characters such as a dual-wielding palaidn for example. The 4E rules just don't really support paladins (or sorcerers, warlocks, etc..) in using a weapon in both hands. I was lucky in that the Essentials books allowed me to convert my cleric/knight/PrC paladin of v3.5 into a very similar character using 4E (Knight/Warlord/Sword Marshal) with a heavy emphasis on Religion. It worked out pretty well.
Anyways, think it over Alystra and let me know  . |
| Alystra Illianniis |
Posted - 17 Feb 2011 : 18:22:49
You don't. I ran into this problem in my first (and LAST) 4th ed game. I tried to convert a Paladin I'd been playing since 2nd ed, and I could NOT translate him over. It simply did not work with the new rules. 3.5 was fine- Half-Dragons still existed with little change, and the bard levels he had before becoming a paladin fit just fine in that edition. But when I tried to convert him using the dragonborn and using the mix/match of 4th, he SUCKED. He was no longer playable for me, as it was not even remotely like the character I had originally created. Needless to say, it is the biggest reason why I stayed away from 4th. I could not convert my favorite characters without loosing half of what made them so much fun to play in the first place. |
| Diffan |
Posted - 17 Feb 2011 : 18:17:42
This is the one thing I wanted to comment on while not stepping into this debate....
quote:
Originally posted by Alystra Illianniis
"When Amaunator was a dead power, he didn't grant anyone spells."
Then where did his remaining faithful get them? They had to come from somewhere. And don't just say Lathander.
"And no, the feat isn't useless. It's a method by which a PC can gain spells while worshipping a dead deity, and not get those spells from a demon or another god. The feat states clearly that the priest is aware their deity died, and through an act of intense faith they are somehow still able to connect to the remnants of that deity's power (at least for spells, if nothing else)."
That is exactly what I've been saying. You just agreed with me. Thanks!
The feat was printed in Lost Empires of Faerûn which also published a prestige class called the Sunmaster. This PrC required the Servant of the Fallen feat because it was a group of Ex-Lathanderites turned Amaunatori that belived in the 3-Sun Heresy. To gain spells FROM Amaunator, they needed this feat to do so. Without this feat, Amaunatori would NOT gain spells because Amaunator was considered "forgotten" and thus, couln't grant spells.
So we agree that the feat is good if you want to serve a dead deity and gain power from said dead deity because doing so without this feat is pointless. I also feel that there should be a feat in the Forgotten Realms supplements that allows non-patronage divine classes to gain spells if they have enough zeal and fervor in a specific belief. But that's just my 2-cents. |
| Diffan |
Posted - 17 Feb 2011 : 18:07:23
quote:
Originally posted by IanVeers
I tend to sum up 4e as Post-Apocalyptic Faerun. Only not as fleshed out. (Which is the worst part in my opinion). It has a bit of Shadowrun flavor to it, in a sense that a series of world shattering events swept through and left the world a twisted yet intriguing husk of its former self. The problem with it being that it feels very rushed. As if WOTC should have done one but not the other. Either the apocalypse or the system change, not both. While the system change does not greatly effect your basic DnD player (with the exception of having to learn a new system). The system change has hit FR players harder because of the sudden shift between systems AND the alterations made to the Realms. It left most players feeling at more of a loss which in turn attributed to much of the negative response. All and all I'd say that while the new addition streamlined the system to make gameplay easier. It may not have been the best time to nuke the realms.
The best thing a player can do in this situation is ignore the changes that they don't like. There are changes that I don't like about FR4E like Elistraee being gone for one. So what I did is kept her in, ignored the War of the Spider Queen series altogether, which also gave room for the other Drow deities in that pantheon too. One might ask, "well if she's alive and well, what do divine classes do about keeping her flavor in with the mechanics?" and to this I say, I make it up and homebrew it to suit my needs. Ta-Da!!
The question I still ask is, How would someone handle the Edition change to all the races, classes, etc. and still keep everything the same in the Realms WHILE incorporating such changes? |
| Alystra Illianniis |
Posted - 17 Feb 2011 : 18:06:16
"Well, this would be a good analogy if there was only one company that you could work for in the world, they offered you one type of job, and then they set all the rules and determined salaries and benefits (again, entirely on their terms without your input). Then, if you "chose" to not accept their job offer (the only one ever available to you), they put you in prison until you died after slowly starving to death... that would be a better analogy.'
But there is more than one "company", and you could pick your "salary" and "benefits" based on which offer you prefer. and that's still better than NOT working for a "company" and starving. There is more than one type of "job", too, depending on which one you "work" for. and the prison part still works, too. They DID used to have debtors prisons for vagrants and those who could not pay, after all. Nowadays, you just end up in a shelter, but even then, you're still expected to put in SOME effort. The comparison still applies.
"When Amaunator was a dead power, he didn't grant anyone spells."
Then where did his remaining faithful get them? They had to come from somewhere. And don't just say Lathander.
"And no, the feat isn't useless. It's a method by which a PC can gain spells while worshipping a dead deity, and not get those spells from a demon or another god. The feat states clearly that the priest is aware their deity died, and through an act of intense faith they are somehow still able to connect to the remnants of that deity's power (at least for spells, if nothing else)."
That is exactly what I've been saying. You just agreed with me. Thanks!
"For a short time after Bane's death, Cyric granted spells to his priests (again, like with Myrkul's priests, in attempt to get them to transfer loyalty to him. It didn't last forever. Also, for a short time, Xvim was actually a lesser deity of his own accord. Once Xvim was essentially "eaten" and reborn as Bane, Bane started granting spells again."
And yet there was an entire sect of Banites that refused to turn to cyric and were STILL getting spells. where di those come from, I wonder? From the remaining "seed" of Bane, of course. Which explains why Xvim (stupid name BTW) was able to grant them later.
"Where does it say that Eilistraee's domain was separate from Corellon's domain? AFAIK, she had two "domains": one in the Abyss and another in Arvandor. I can't imagine that Eilistraee would send any of her petitioners to the Abyss domain. And Arvandor is technically ruled by the Seldarine / Corellon anyway. It is true that her domain didn't fall apart as has happened with other dead deities. And I will agree that she is probably still living in some form, perhaps a fey celestial of some sort. But she's a "dead power" because a) she gave up her divinity, and b) her worshippers believe she died. At the end of her godhood, her entire priesthood was made aware of this by Corellon, as he started accepting her priestesses as his own. She might be back in some form though, who knows?"
Actually, I believe she has three- Arvandor, the Abyss, and Svartalfheim in Asgard. She no longer uses the Abyss one, but Svartalfheim is still there, and it has NOTHING to do with the Seldarine. Also, her domain in Arvandor was always stated (in Planescape) to be "separate" from the rest of Arvandor, sitting at the very edges of it. It is still PART of it, but is its own domain as well. And there has been no indication that Corellon actually took her priests as his own. That was not stated in the novels. All he did was show them that her domain still existed, and accept her followers back into the Seldarine's domains. Nothing more is said of what became of them after that.
"Mask was "Godsbane" during the ToT, as the sword was his avatar. Magic was acting wonky for all priests during the ToT. Divine magic failed to work unless a priest was within a mile or so of their god's sole avatar. Remember?'
No, I had COMPLETELY forgotten. Of course I remember, but that was true for ALL of them. Yet even his preists still could, if they were close enough, by that recconing. Doesn't really prove anything. One could just as ealsily say that ALL the gods were "dead" at that point, outside of the one-mile radius of their avatars.
Tell you what- I'll let you "win" this arguement, since it seems to mean that much to you. You can be "right" this time, and save the rest of us the burden/troulbe of it. I guess those who disagree with you will just have to settle for being "wrong" this time. Happy? |
| IanVeers |
Posted - 17 Feb 2011 : 15:01:43
I tend to sum up 4e as Post-Apocalyptic Faerun. Only not as fleshed out. (Which is the worst part in my opinion). It has a bit of Shadowrun flavor to it, in a sense that a series of world shattering events swept through and left the world a twisted yet intriguing husk of its former self. The problem with it being that it feels very rushed. As if WOTC should have done one but not the other. Either the apocalypse or the system change, not both. While the system change does not greatly effect your basic DnD player (with the exception of having to learn a new system). The system change has hit FR players harder because of the sudden shift between systems AND the alterations made to the Realms. It left most players feeling at more of a loss which in turn attributed to much of the negative response. All and all I'd say that while the new addition streamlined the system to make gameplay easier. It may not have been the best time to nuke the realms. |
| Bakra |
Posted - 17 Feb 2011 : 12:48:45
quote:
Originally posted by Arik
Your question about who gets souls seems more complex than just Bane/Xvim.
Did (old) Jergal's souls get divided up between Myrkul, Bhaal, and Bane? Then what happened when Cyric grabbed all their portfolios? What happened when Cyric stole Liera's complete portfolio (deception and illusion)? Or when he forced Mask to surrender a portion of his portfolio (intrigue)? Did all the eternal illusionists and spymasters suddenly relocate into Cyric's domain to afterlive happily ever after with the newly reacquainted assassins, tyrants, and necromongers? Were these souls later transferred elsewhere when Cyric lost most of his portfolios? Did Finder inherit all of Moander's rotten faithful? Or did they all just windfall their putrid divine energy into Talona's account instead? Did Tyche's faithful all flip coins to determine who went with Tymora and who with Beshaba? Do souls who serve Karsus walk forever beside the souls of those who loved the goddess he killed?
On a broader scale, a power's portfolio (core elements of belief) can change over time, be claimed by very different powers, or even disappear entirely. The power itself could evolve into an entirely new god of something very different. Would all the souls of believers be transferred to other gods around the planes? Would they all be reformatted for compatibility? It seems a power shouldn't be able to derive any spiritual sustenance/existence from incompatible souls. Would the souls, like their lost gods, become forgotten, dormant, and eventually fade into oblivion?
The souls might be eternal, but their promised rewards and afterlifes apparently aren't. The gods ain't so useful after all.
Post Time of Troubles where the faithful goes when a Power dies depends on several things. If the Powers domain dissolves for whatever reason then souls either get scatted across the multiverse(what am I doing in the 1313 layer of the Abyss) , recycled (reincarnation), picked up by an allied Power (Helm is gone come live in my house), goes back to Kelvemor for reassignment (reincarnation, allied god, or live with him), or be totally obliterated with their deity (Who says souls are eternal that is just speculation by mere mortals understanding of the ‘verse) Souls that are tricked by evil deity are doomed unless a rival god comes along to petition for its release. (Torm tried to do this with Cyric)
OR the soul can accept the new landlord.
Jergal didn’t die there is no need for him to give up his rightfully earned faithful.
Karsus was a Power for an extremely short amount of time. I seriously doubt he had any faithful. And if he did have some faithful, he sure as heck didn’t have anytime to go claim them .
|
| Ayrik |
Posted - 17 Feb 2011 : 09:06:22
Your question about who gets souls seems more complex than just Bane/Xvim.
Did (old) Jergal's souls get divided up between Myrkul, Bhaal, and Bane? Then what happened when Cyric grabbed all their portfolios? What happened when Cyric stole Liera's complete portfolio (deception and illusion)? Or when he forced Mask to surrender a portion of his portfolio (intrigue)? Did all the eternal illusionists and spymasters suddenly relocate into Cyric's domain to afterlive happily ever after with the newly reacquainted assassins, tyrants, and necromongers? Were these souls later transferred elsewhere when Cyric lost most of his portfolios? Did Finder inherit all of Moander's rotten faithful? Or did they all just windfall their putrid divine energy into Talona's account instead? Did Tyche's faithful all flip coins to determine who went with Tymora and who with Beshaba? Do souls who serve Karsus walk forever beside the souls of those who loved the goddess he killed?
On a broader scale, a power's portfolio (core elements of belief) can change over time, be claimed by very different powers, or even disappear entirely. The power itself could evolve into an entirely new god of something very different. Would all the souls of believers be transferred to other gods around the planes? Would they all be reformatted for compatibility? It seems a power shouldn't be able to derive any spiritual sustenance/existence from incompatible souls. Would the souls, like their lost gods, become forgotten, dormant, and eventually fade into oblivion?
The souls might be eternal, but their promised rewards and afterlifes apparently aren't. The gods ain't so useful after all. |
| Ayrik |
Posted - 17 Feb 2011 : 08:31:17
Ye'd be referring to Iyachtu Xvim, the Godson/Baneson. I've always loved his symbol (as described in FR6 where he first appeared in the Realms): a pair of green, glowing eyes set upon a black field. It makes for some rather stylish robes and garment that gives his dark followers a delightfully sinister appearance. A few of these well-dressed fellows contrast quite vividly when accessorized with some priests of Kossuth. Evil minions are so much better when they're sharply dressed. |
| Therise |
Posted - 17 Feb 2011 : 08:27:42
quote:
Originally posted by Alystra Illianniis
Sure, if YOU say so. I guess there's no room for others' perspectives to be right? So basically, you're saying that feat is USELESS. Then why is it there?
It's not just me saying so, it's a rule.
And no, the feat isn't useless. It's a method by which a PC can gain spells while worshipping a dead deity, and not get those spells from a demon or another god. The feat states clearly that the priest is aware their deity died, and through an act of intense faith they are somehow still able to connect to the remnants of that deity's power (at least for spells, if nothing else). Intense faith is apparently enough to connect one to a god-corpse, but it's not enough to gain them an afterlife. Presumably because there are no divine servitors to come collect a dead petitioner, and the dead deity doesn't have a realm anyway.
quote:
Unless you can DEFINITIVELY prove that NO fallen god has ever NOT granted spells to followers, then the statement is still valid.
When there's a clear rule, like I've shown, that's enough. You actually have the burden of proof to show that the rule is wrong, since you're arguing against it.
quote:
How about we use Amaunator as an example. He was "dead", after all, and "came back" (ignoring the utterly confusing 4th ed godly mash-ups for the moment). And clerics of his faith still received spells right alongside those of Lathander as a separate faith for years. (Can't remember where I saw this, plus, it's late, and I'm getting really tired of going round about this.)
When Amaunator was a dead power, he didn't grant anyone spells.
quote:
But, hey, I'll even give you the other two, just for fun. Even though Jergal is not actually the god of death anymore, nor is he even "active" currently except as Kelemvore's "senechal" (which is just another name for a butler, LOL!!!), AFAIK, but yet he's still handing out spells. By your own statement, he should not be able to. But he is.
Er... you aren't actually "giving" me anything, the lore supports me in this. Jergal gave up part of his power, not all of it. He did not become mortal when Bane, Bhaal, and Myrkul came into power, and he didn't give up all of his portfolios. He definitely is and has been a living power and at no point was he a dead or forgotten power. He's a lesser god / demipower. There's no issue whatsoever with Jergal handing out spells to worshippers.
quote:
As for the Lolth/Moander thing, sure, but IIRC, that was also supposed to be only speculation at one point. It wasn't made "truth" until later (in one of the later 3.5 books, I believe). A "whispers say" bit of lore.
Many things in the Realms start out as whispers or beliefs, then we get a reveal in a later book. This doesn't invalidate any part of what I'm saying.
quote:
...and never mind that Myrkul is stuck in the Crown of Thorns and shouldn't be able to hand out spells, but still seems to exert considerable power even outside of the wearer.
Myrkul doesn't grant spells any longer.
quote:
And then there is the domain of Eilistraee. It still exists separately from Corellon's. Wanna lay odds on whether her clerics still get spells? I'd bet they do. (Then again, I'm not entirely convinced she's "dead", either.)
Where does it say that Eilistraee's domain was separate from Corellon's domain? AFAIK, she had two "domains": one in the Abyss and another in Arvandor. I can't imagine that Eilistraee would send any of her petitioners to the Abyss domain. And Arvandor is technically ruled by the Seldarine / Corellon anyway. It is true that her domain didn't fall apart as has happened with other dead deities. And I will agree that she is probably still living in some form, perhaps a fey celestial of some sort. But she's a "dead power" because a) she gave up her divinity, and b) her worshippers believe she died. At the end of her godhood, her entire priesthood was made aware of this by Corellon, as he started accepting her priestesses as his own. She might be back in some form though, who knows?
quote:
Or lest we forget Mask. He was stuck in a sword, but was still granting spells to his clerics, even though he was not technically "active" either.
Mask was "Godsbane" during the ToT, as the sword was his avatar. Magic was acting wonky for all priests during the ToT. Divine magic failed to work unless a priest was within a mile or so of their god's sole avatar. Remember?
quote:
And what about Bane? He was dead for quite some time, but his clerics still got their daily ration of divine power, until he was reborn as what's-his-name-funky-spelled-X-guy Baneson.
For a short time after Bane's death, Cyric granted spells to his priests (again, like with Myrkul's priests, in attempt to get them to transfer loyalty to him. It didn't last forever. Also, for a short time, Xvim was actually a lesser deity of his own accord. Once Xvim was essentially "eaten" and reborn as Bane, Bane started granting spells again.
Bhaal is still dead, and as a dead power he doesn't grant spells.
quote:
Gee, with all the "dead" gods floating around, how are ANY priests getting spells? Keep in mind that death is different for gods than it is for mortals. They still have power after they die, and can still influence things- mortals just go on to enjoy their happy reward (or nasty punishment, depending).
I've explained each one in some depth. The rule is still the rule, though: dead powers don't themselves grant spells to worshippers.
A very interesting question is whether or not a revived deity like Bane could go and retrieve souls that rigidly held to his faith while he was a dead power. Would Kelemvor allow Bane to retrieve any soul that had died while Bane was dead for those years, yet had kept the faith of Bane (not switching to Cyric)?
|
| Alystra Illianniis |
Posted - 17 Feb 2011 : 07:32:24
Sure, if YOU say so. I guess there's no room for others' perspectives to be right? So basically, you're saying that feat is USELESS. Then why is it there? Unless you can DEFINITIVELY prove that NO fallen god has ever NOT granted spells to followers, then the statement is still valid. How about we use Amaunator as an example. He was "dead", after all, and "came back" (ignoring the utterly confusing 4th ed godly mash-ups for the moment). And clerics of his faith still received spells right alongside those of Lathander as a separate faith for years. (Can't remember where I saw this, plus, it's late, and I'm getting really tired of going round about this.) But, hey, I'll even give you the other two, just for fun. Even though Jergal is not actually the god of death anymore, nor is he even "active" currently except as Kelemvore's "senechal" (which is just another name for a butler, LOL!!!), AFAIK, but yet he's still handing out spells. By your own statement, he should not be able to. But he is. As for the Lolth/Moander thing, sure, but IIRC, that was also supposed to be only speculation at one point. It wasn't made "truth" until later (in one of the later 3.5 books, I believe). A "whispers say" bit of lore. and never mind that Myrkul is stuck in the Crown of Thorns and shouldn't be able to hand out spells, but still seems to exert considerable power even outside of the wearer. And then there is the domain of Eilistraee. It still exists separately from Corellon's. Wanna lay odds on whether her clerics still get spells? I'd bet they do. (Then again, I'm not entirely convinced she's "dead", either.) Or lest we forget Mask. He was stuck in a sword, but was still granting spells to his clerics, even though he was not technically "active" either. And what about Bane? He was dead for quite some time, but his clerics still got their daily ration of divine power, until he was reborn as what's-his-name-funky-spelled-X-guy Baneson. Gee, with all the "dead" gods floating around, how are ANY priests getting spells? Keep in mind that death is different for gods than it is for mortals. They still have power after they die, and can still influence things- mortals just go on to enjoy their happy reward (or nasty punishment, depending). |
| Therise |
Posted - 17 Feb 2011 : 07:03:15
quote:
Originally posted by Alystra Illianniis
Indeed, Sage, I didn't intend for it to skew that way- was just making an observation of possible reasons for that view. Personally, I have nothing against it- to each their own, after all, but I was sort of wondering if such a judgment might be coloring perspective. However, this is a fictional pantheon, so I'm thinking that RW religious ideas don't necessarily apply.
That said, no, I am not denying anything, I am pointing out that there is a BIG qualifier to that statement quoted above. In fact, I even used the same quote to make my point. "NORMALLY" being the operative word in that sentence, meaning that under some conditions, a cleric CAN still receive spells. Otherwise, why even HAVE that feat? The text says it right out. You're basically saying the feat itself is pointless because you couldn't use it. If that was true, then there would be no reason for the feat to be there in the first place. The designers put it there so that clerics of dead gods COULD still get their spells, etc! One can argue against it if they like, but that is the plain and simple truth.
Alystra, dead gods do not grant spells. Clerics who worship a dead deity can get spells from demons (or sometimes other gods) that pretend to be the dead deity.
That's all the qualifier means.
quote:
I DO have a passing familiarity with the nuances of the English language, and the insertion of that word "NORMALLY" is a qualifier that allows for a refutation of the rest of the sentence if proper requirements are met- ie, taking the feat. So, yes, a cleric CAN worship a fallen god and still gain spells. How else do all those clerics of Moander, Jergal, Myrkul, et al still manage to have divine power? (They are small cults, to be sure, but they DO still get spells!)
Moander's clerics were given spells by Lolth for a time, and they didn't know. That's lore.
Jergal is not a dead deity, he is an active lesser god and can still grant spells.
For Myrkul, Cyric granted clerics of Myrkul their spells for a time (in order to get them to switch over). But in the lore, I don't know of any NPC that still worships Myrkul and obtains spells.
quote:
There have been "dead" gods many times before- heck, Mystra herself has died three different times, and yet her clerics still received spells for most of that time- and clerics have continued to gain spells from them, and have even brought them back on occasion with enough reverence.
When Mystryl died, magic stopped for a short time - until she (almost immediately) became Mystra. When Mystra was killed the second time, by Helm, she was technically a mortal avatar and magic was acting wonky during the ToT anyway. Midnight became Mystra #2, and granted worshippers their spells just as Mystra #1 did. None of the cases with Mystra really argue against the rule on dead deities no longer granting spells. When Cyric brained Mystra and really did kill her (at least making her a dead power), Mystran priests stopped getting spells.
Dead deities don't come back because they regain some critical minimum of worshippers, they come back for other reasons. But those deities, while they were dead powers, did not grant spells. Other deities, or demons, granted spells in their place.
quote:
How is that denying a statement which is already conditional to begin with? Come to think of it, if enough people got together with the same beliefs and started praying to a "imaginary" god, they could conceivably give that deity reality, and then start gaining divine power from it. Not saying it would ever happen, but it's POSSIBLE. We are dealing with a world of magic, after all, and "normal" rules of logic and physics don't apply.
What deity can you point to in the Realms where this is the case?
quote:
Also, Although the analogy has its faults, I can certainly see the point of it. Perhaps a better one would be having a job. Yes, you can either work for a living and enjoy the benefits of having money, a home, and other necessities and luxuries of life, or you can not have a job and have a very crummy life indeed. No one FORCES you to get one, but hey, if you choose NOT to, then who do you blame for it? Not the boss you chose NOT to work for. He's got bigger things to worry about. It isn't his fault if you're starving in the street because you refuse to work. but if you have a job, work hard, and are loyal to the company, you'll eventually get that nice retirement package! (Wow, I just summed up the entire god/mortal dynamic perfectly. Imagine that.)
Well, this would be a good analogy if there was only one company that you could work for in the world, they offered you one type of job, and then they set all the rules and determined salaries and benefits (again, entirely on their terms without your input). Then, if you "chose" to not accept their job offer (the only one ever available to you), they put you in prison until you died after slowly starving to death... that would be a better analogy. 
|
| Alystra Illianniis |
Posted - 17 Feb 2011 : 06:45:23
Indeed, Sage, I didn't intend for it to skew that way- was just making an observation of possible reasons for that view. Personally, I have nothing against it- to each their own, after all, but I was sort of wondering if such a judgment might be coloring perspective. However, this is a fictional pantheon, so I'm thinking that RW religious ideas don't necessarily apply.
That said, no, I am not denying anything, I am pointing out that there is a BIG qualifier to that statement quoted above. In fact, I even used the same quote to make my point. "NORMALLY" being the operative word in that sentence, meaning that under some conditions, a cleric CAN still receive spells. Otherwise, why even HAVE that feat? The text says it right out. You're basically saying the feat itself is pointless because you couldn't use it. If that was true, then there would be no reason for the feat to be there in the first place. The designers put it there so that clerics of dead gods COULD still get their spells, etc! One can argue against it if they like, but that is the plain and simple truth. I DO have a passing familiarity with the nuances of the English language, and the insertion of that word "NORMALLY" is a qualifier that allows for a refutation of the rest of the sentence if proper requirements are met- ie, taking the feat. So, yes, a cleric CAN worship a fallen god and still gain spells. How else do all those clerics of Moander, Jergal, Myrkul, et al still manage to have divine power? (They are small cults, to be sure, but they DO still get spells!) There have been "dead" gods many times before- heck, Mystra herself has died three different times, and yet her clerics still received spells for most of that time- and clerics have continued to gain spells from them, and have even brought them back on occasion with enough reverence. How is that denying a statement which is already conditional to begin with? Come to think of it, if enough people got together with the same beliefs and started praying to a "imaginary" god, they could conceivably give that deity reality, and then start gaining divine power from it. Not saying it would ever happen, but it's POSSIBLE. We are dealing with a world of magic, after all, and "normal" rules of logic and physics don't apply.
Also, Although the analogy has its faults, I can certainly see the point of it. Perhaps a better one would be having a job. Yes, you can either work for a living and enjoy the benefits of having money, a home, and other necessities and luxuries of life, or you can not have a job and have a very crummy life indeed. No one FORCES you to get one, but hey, if you choose NOT to, then who do you blame for it? Not the boss you chose NOT to work for. He's got bigger things to worry about. It isn't his fault if you're starving in the street because you refuse to work. but if you have a job, work hard, and are loyal to the company, you'll eventually get that nice retirement package! (Wow, I just summed up the entire god/mortal dynamic perfectly. Imagine that.) |
|
|
