| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Chosen of Asmodeus |
Posted - 15 Jan 2011 : 05:45:13
Quick question I can't seem to find the answer for; does anyone know what Obould's divine symbol is in 4e? The campaign and player guides only give the symbols for the greater gods, not gods or exarchs. |
| 30 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| Alisttair |
Posted - 21 Jan 2011 : 12:24:00
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
I think it's important to note that a Chosen may ascend to the position of an Exarch. Creating new Chosen is still possible, and they don't necessarily have to be an Exarch -- it's just something they might eventually come to. However, judging from that FRCG quote, the current lot of Chosen have obviously ascended to the rank of Exarch.
In essence, Chosen are now (for the time being anyways) reserved for the PCs (or in the case of evil deities, a villain of the PCs to be created by the DM, although no specific rule exists for 4E villain Chosen). You could have your PC become a Chosen as his epic destiny and when you hit level 30 (or sooner if that's when you want to end) and time comes to retire the character, it makes for a great ending to a campaign to have said character ascend as an Exarch (and have future characters in the home campaign worship said Exarch, or pay lip service at least hehe  ). |
| The Sage |
Posted - 21 Jan 2011 : 00:54:38
I think it's important to note that a Chosen may ascend to the position of an Exarch. Creating new Chosen is still possible, and they don't necessarily have to be an Exarch -- it's just something they might eventually come to. However, judging from that FRCG quote, the current lot of Chosen have obviously ascended to the rank of Exarch. |
| Chosen of Asmodeus |
Posted - 20 Jan 2011 : 22:56:23
They do note that as of the start of 4e realms(I forget which year the timeskip starts at, off hand) that there are no active Chosen who aren't also Exarchs. |
| Therise |
Posted - 20 Jan 2011 : 22:53:17
quote:
Originally posted by Christopher_Rowe
quote:
Originally posted by Therise
This would explain Fzoul, I guess. Do they have new rules for "Chosen" in 4E?
I'm away from my books and can't give you a detailed answer, but in brief, yes. Certain characters may become Chosen of their patron deities as their Epic Destinies if I'm remembering the terminology correctly. That's the third (and highest, natch, starting at 20th level) of the three tiers of character development in 4E.
That's good to hear, I'm glad they kept the concept.
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| Chosen of Asmodeus |
Posted - 20 Jan 2011 : 22:51:53
Yea. They provide rules for becoming a chosen for good and unaligned deities, though not evil ones. Much to my annoyance.
Fzoul is the patron of "Service to evil". Basicly he'd be the go to god for the snivling right hands of more powerful individuals who worship Bane. |
| Christopher_Rowe |
Posted - 20 Jan 2011 : 22:47:49
quote:
Originally posted by Therise
This would explain Fzoul, I guess. Do they have new rules for "Chosen" in 4E?
I'm away from my books and can't give you a detailed answer, but in brief, yes. Certain characters may become Chosen of their patron deities as their Epic Destinies if I'm remembering the terminology correctly. That's the third (and highest, natch, starting at 20th level) of the three tiers of character development in 4E.
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| Therise |
Posted - 20 Jan 2011 : 22:40:42
quote:
Originally posted by Chosen of Asmodeus
Way it explains it is that Exarchs are basicly demigods, tied to the service of greater deities. It also explains that Chosen are generally elevated to the possition of Exarchs either when their task is done, or upon their death.
This would explain Fzoul, I guess. Do they have new rules for "Chosen" in 4E?
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| Therise |
Posted - 20 Jan 2011 : 22:38:19
Fzoul Chembryl is an Exarch now (formerly Bane's Chosen), although I have a hard time picturing anyone worshipping him as a deity.
...and I don't think there are any "Chosen" in 4E, are there?
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| Chosen of Asmodeus |
Posted - 20 Jan 2011 : 22:37:41
Way it explains it is that Exarchs are basicly demigods, tied to the service of greater deities. It also explains that Chosen are generally elevated to the possition of Exarchs either when their task is done, or upon their death. |
| Quale |
Posted - 20 Jan 2011 : 21:55:57
exharchs are worshiped as gods, the chosen aren't
less powerful exarchs like Artus Cimber are closer to proxies |
| Therise |
Posted - 20 Jan 2011 : 19:31:58
This makes me wonder... is "Exarch" really just the new 4E name for a "Chosen"? Or does Exarch imply a lot more, like akin to the old "demigod" usage in older editions?
I guess I sort of thought about it being more like someone who has ascended, not like a mortal Chosen. Exarchs are in service to a greater deity, but still have a measure of true divinity. But now I'm starting to wonder, maybe "Exarch" and "Chosen" are almost equivalent?
Technically, we haven't seen "Chosen" at all for any 4E deity, have we?
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| Alisttair |
Posted - 20 Jan 2011 : 11:27:20
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
quote:
Originally posted by Tyranthraxus
The way I see it is that exarchs are what used to be demigods, but serve another deity.
Essentially, yes. Exarchs are likely to remain as the quite powerful servants of deities -- to the point of being more divinely powerful than than a mortal cleric, but just a step below an actual deity.
Just to add to what Sage said, between the mortal cleric and the Exarch lies the Chosen (epic destiny for PCs, no known NPC Chosen this time around as far as I can tell). |
| The Sage |
Posted - 20 Jan 2011 : 00:33:42
quote:
Originally posted by Tyranthraxus
The way I see it is that exarchs are what used to be demigods, but serve another deity.
Essentially, yes. Exarchs are likely to remain as the quite powerful servants of deities -- to the point of being more divinely powerful than than a mortal cleric, but just a step below an actual deity. |
| The Sage |
Posted - 20 Jan 2011 : 00:28:26
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Chosen of Asmodeus
I'm assuming his ascention entailed killing Ilneval since said god is no where to be found in 4e, and taking over the traitor's portfolio of applying thinking and tactics to standard orc rage in warfare, which is very much in line with Obould's personality.
Not necessarily. 4E entirely rearranged the pantheons, often without logic or explanation.
I wouldn't say entirely without logic or explanation. As Mr. Miscellany notes, the FRCG does provide some details for the changes, though not completely. However, several DDI 'deity-related" articles also provide some basic info on the transition between the pre-Spellplague pantheon arrangement, and that of the post-Spellplague period. |
| Mr_Miscellany |
Posted - 19 Jan 2011 : 23:53:51
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
It's not 4E bashing. Saying that deity X is really deity Y, even in contradiction to prior lore...
Well, we know Ed and THO have both repeated time and again that deities can be aspects of other deities. They can answer prayers of the failthful of another deity, masquerading as that god for centuries if need be.
The phrase "All the Watching Gods" comes to mind.
We know that deities can come and go in cycles. We know deities can split apart and merge.
That's all in established lore.
We also know from experience that sourcebook and even novel lore isn't absolute. Just because one layer is revealed doesn't mean that's it and we're done. Deities are mutable beings. That's a given in the lore.
With each edition change, the deities change too. Parts of the Pantheon are expanded, new pantheons are written in and the Realms grows to fit the needs of the game system.
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Give me an explanation that is logical and explains away the inconsistencies with prior lore, and I will withdraw my complaints.
Done.
I'll only add that we don't know everything about deities in the Realms. I can understand a person's strong desire to have every single bit laid out, with each piece neatly fitting into the next, but this is the Forgotten Realms, not a jigsaw puzzle.
What you see as inconsistencies are really mysteries. What you see as a retcon was in fact a major revelation about how deities function in the Realms, with its roots in Ed's comments about the deities.
The Realms are mysterious on purpose, so DMs can fill in the gaps. That's why I like Chosen of Asmodeus' explanation. He's doing what Realms DMs have been doing for over two decades, and he's doing it well. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 19 Jan 2011 : 22:44:19
It's not 4E bashing. Saying that deity X is really deity Y, even in contradiction to prior lore, or that deity Z wasn't the full-on deity he's always been described as but merely an ascended mortal servant of another deity, is not logical.
I'll call any unexplained retcon illogical, regardless of edition. I've said it enough about some of the changes from 2E to 3E.
Give me an explanation that is logical and explains away the inconsistencies with prior lore, and I will withdraw my complaints. |
| Mr_Miscellany |
Posted - 19 Jan 2011 : 22:03:19
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Not necessarily. 4E entirely rearranged the pantheons, often without logic or explanation.
The basic arrangment of the Pantheon in the 4E Realms was pretty well explained in the 4E FRCG.
The deeper "why" answers aren't there—which is where the lack of explanation Wooly is talking about comes in—but that's what allows someone like Chosen of Asmodeus to fill in the gaps with his theories and ideas for his game. Standard operating procedure for FR Dungeon Masters, that.
The claim the Pantheon was done "without logic" isn't true and is 4E bashing. The game designers didn't just write things willy nilly.
quote:
Originally posted by Alisttair
Nothing official yet unless something appears in the RPGA adventures that were never released to the public...
These were released recently.
See THIS LINK for the LFR adventure archive. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 19 Jan 2011 : 21:57:47
quote:
Originally posted by Chosen of Asmodeus
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Chosen of Asmodeus
I'm assuming his ascention entailed killing Ilneval since said god is no where to be found in 4e, and taking over the traitor's portfolio of applying thinking and tactics to standard orc rage in warfare, which is very much in line with Obould's personality.
Not necessarily. 4E entirely rearranged the pantheons, often without logic or explanation.
Ok, I'll word that differently; within the context of my home game, the explaination I'm using for Ilneval's absence is Obould killing him upon ascention and taking over his role among the orc gods.
It's a reasonable assumption. I don't know of anything that supports it, in canon, but I also don't know of anything that says otherwise. |
| Chosen of Asmodeus |
Posted - 19 Jan 2011 : 19:58:05
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Chosen of Asmodeus
I'm assuming his ascention entailed killing Ilneval since said god is no where to be found in 4e, and taking over the traitor's portfolio of applying thinking and tactics to standard orc rage in warfare, which is very much in line with Obould's personality.
Not necessarily. 4E entirely rearranged the pantheons, often without logic or explanation.
Ok, I'll word that differently; within the context of my home game, the explaination I'm using for Ilneval's absence is Obould killing him upon ascention and taking over his role among the orc gods. |
| Alisttair |
Posted - 19 Jan 2011 : 11:58:51
quote:
Originally posted by Tyranthraxus
The way I see it is that exarchs are what used to be demigods, but serve another deity.
Pretty much this. For example, Clanggeddin and other dwarf deities are exarchs of Moradin. Fzoul is an exarch of Bane. Milil is one of Oghma, etc...
Just a new name for the same job with slight alteration to the job description. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 19 Jan 2011 : 11:48:29
quote:
Originally posted by Chosen of Asmodeus
I'm assuming his ascention entailed killing Ilneval since said god is no where to be found in 4e, and taking over the traitor's portfolio of applying thinking and tactics to standard orc rage in warfare, which is very much in line with Obould's personality.
Not necessarily. 4E entirely rearranged the pantheons, often without logic or explanation. |
| Tyranthraxus |
Posted - 19 Jan 2011 : 11:10:31
The way I see it is that exarchs are what used to be demigods, but serve another deity. |
| swifty |
Posted - 19 Jan 2011 : 10:12:42
quote:
Originally posted by Alisttair
quote:
Originally posted by Therise
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Therise
Wait... Obould is actually a demigod in 4E?
When did this happen, and where?
IIRC, he was made an exarch in the 4E FRCG.
That's interesting. For some reason I thought he was dead and his descendant was on his throne.
His descendant is on his throne. Obould I is a divine exarch to Gruumsh.
sorry to be dumb but what does exarch to gruumsh mean exactly.also did i read somewhere once that gruumsh and talos were one and the same. |
| Chosen of Asmodeus |
Posted - 19 Jan 2011 : 07:54:32
Well, once again I'd like to thank everyone for their help, fruitless as this has been. Was asking as the latest character I'm working on is a half-orc paladin of Obould and I wanted him to have Obould's holy symbol tattooed on his back before realizing I didn't know what said symbol actually was. Think I'll end up going with a greatsword crossed with arrows.
Also, Gauntlgrym spoiler;
Obould apparently dies of old age at the start of the book. Which when you think about it is kind of badass; when have you ever heard of an orc dying of old age? Being the one orc so tough that time was the only enemy that could kill him. I'm assuming his ascention entailed killing Ilneval since said god is no where to be found in 4e, and taking over the traitor's portfolio of applying thinking and tactics to standard orc rage in warfare, which is very much in line with Obould's personality. |
| Alisttair |
Posted - 18 Jan 2011 : 18:20:20
quote:
Originally posted by Therise
Ah okay, heh! I thought I read that Oubold's grandson or great-grandson (or whatever) was the new king.
If the original Oubold is an exarch, that means he must've had a very interesting final career. Makes me wonder if we'll ever hear more about that.
Put that on the wish list of Salvatore novels. back story of Zaknafein and Jarlaxle, final days of Wulfgar, and the divine ascension of Obould  . I would like to see all three novelized.
This goes in the whole Bane/Xvim story wishlist for Ed to write as well . |
| Therise |
Posted - 18 Jan 2011 : 17:33:36
Ah okay, heh! I thought I read that Oubold's grandson or great-grandson (or whatever) was the new king.
If the original Oubold is an exarch, that means he must've had a very interesting final career. Makes me wonder if we'll ever hear more about that. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 18 Jan 2011 : 17:13:52
quote:
Originally posted by Therise
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Therise
Wait... Obould is actually a demigod in 4E?
When did this happen, and where?
IIRC, he was made an exarch in the 4E FRCG.
That's interesting. For some reason I thought he was dead and his descendant was on his throne.
That, too. I would assume (again, assuming that I'm recalling everything correctly) that he either died and was then made exarch, or that after spawning some younguns, he ascended directly. |
| Alisttair |
Posted - 18 Jan 2011 : 17:05:56
quote:
Originally posted by Therise
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Therise
Wait... Obould is actually a demigod in 4E?
When did this happen, and where?
IIRC, he was made an exarch in the 4E FRCG.
That's interesting. For some reason I thought he was dead and his descendant was on his throne.
His descendant is on his throne. Obould I is a divine exarch to Gruumsh. |
| Therise |
Posted - 18 Jan 2011 : 15:39:23
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Therise
Wait... Obould is actually a demigod in 4E?
When did this happen, and where?
IIRC, he was made an exarch in the 4E FRCG.
That's interesting. For some reason I thought he was dead and his descendant was on his throne.
|
| Alisttair |
Posted - 18 Jan 2011 : 15:37:24
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Therise
Wait... Obould is actually a demigod in 4E?
When did this happen, and where?
IIRC, he was made an exarch in the 4E FRCG.
The information supplied by Wooly is precise  |
