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Chosen of Asmodeus
Master of Realmslore
1221 Posts |
 Posted - 15 Jan 2011 : 05:45:13
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Quick question I can't seem to find the answer for; does anyone know what Obould's divine symbol is in 4e? The campaign and player guides only give the symbols for the greater gods, not gods or exarchs.
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"Then I saw there was a way to Hell even from the gates of Heaven"
- John Bunyan, Pilgrim's Progress
Fatum Iustum Stultorum. Righteous is the destiny of fools.
The Roleplayer's Gazebo;
http://theroleplayersgazebo.yuku.com/directory#.Ub4hvvlJOAY |
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4211 Posts |
Posted - 15 Jan 2011 : 07:05:16
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| a symbol containing many arrows? |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
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Chosen of Asmodeus
Master of Realmslore
1221 Posts |
Posted - 15 Jan 2011 : 15:51:43
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| Hrm. Interesting suggestions. I was hoping there was an offical answer that I was missing somewhere, but these work. |
"Then I saw there was a way to Hell even from the gates of Heaven"
- John Bunyan, Pilgrim's Progress
Fatum Iustum Stultorum. Righteous is the destiny of fools.
The Roleplayer's Gazebo;
http://theroleplayersgazebo.yuku.com/directory#.Ub4hvvlJOAY |
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Alisttair
Great Reader
Canada
3054 Posts |
Posted - 18 Jan 2011 : 14:04:47
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| Nothing official yet unless something appears in the RPGA adventures that were never released to the public... |
Karsite Arcanar (Most Holy Servant of Karsus)
Anauria - Survivor State of Netheril as penned by me:
http://www.dmsguild.com/m/product/172023 |
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Therise
Master of Realmslore
1272 Posts |
Posted - 18 Jan 2011 : 15:18:45
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Wait... Obould is actually a demigod in 4E?
When did this happen, and where?
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Female, 40-year DM of a homebrew-evolved 1E Realms, including a few added tidbits of 2E and 3E lore; played originally in AD&D, then in Rolemaster. Be a DM for your kids and grandkids, gaming is excellent for families! |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36803 Posts |
Posted - 18 Jan 2011 : 15:32:17
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quote:
Originally posted by Therise
Wait... Obould is actually a demigod in 4E?
When did this happen, and where?
IIRC, he was made an exarch in the 4E FRCG. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Alisttair
Great Reader
Canada
3054 Posts |
Posted - 18 Jan 2011 : 15:37:24
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Therise
Wait... Obould is actually a demigod in 4E?
When did this happen, and where?
IIRC, he was made an exarch in the 4E FRCG.
The information supplied by Wooly is precise  |
Karsite Arcanar (Most Holy Servant of Karsus)
Anauria - Survivor State of Netheril as penned by me:
http://www.dmsguild.com/m/product/172023 |
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Therise
Master of Realmslore
1272 Posts |
Posted - 18 Jan 2011 : 15:39:23
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Therise
Wait... Obould is actually a demigod in 4E?
When did this happen, and where?
IIRC, he was made an exarch in the 4E FRCG.
That's interesting. For some reason I thought he was dead and his descendant was on his throne.
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Female, 40-year DM of a homebrew-evolved 1E Realms, including a few added tidbits of 2E and 3E lore; played originally in AD&D, then in Rolemaster. Be a DM for your kids and grandkids, gaming is excellent for families! |
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Alisttair
Great Reader
Canada
3054 Posts |
Posted - 18 Jan 2011 : 17:05:56
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quote:
Originally posted by Therise
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Therise
Wait... Obould is actually a demigod in 4E?
When did this happen, and where?
IIRC, he was made an exarch in the 4E FRCG.
That's interesting. For some reason I thought he was dead and his descendant was on his throne.
His descendant is on his throne. Obould I is a divine exarch to Gruumsh. |
Karsite Arcanar (Most Holy Servant of Karsus)
Anauria - Survivor State of Netheril as penned by me:
http://www.dmsguild.com/m/product/172023 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36803 Posts |
Posted - 18 Jan 2011 : 17:13:52
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quote:
Originally posted by Therise
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Therise
Wait... Obould is actually a demigod in 4E?
When did this happen, and where?
IIRC, he was made an exarch in the 4E FRCG.
That's interesting. For some reason I thought he was dead and his descendant was on his throne.
That, too. I would assume (again, assuming that I'm recalling everything correctly) that he either died and was then made exarch, or that after spawning some younguns, he ascended directly. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Therise
Master of Realmslore
1272 Posts |
Posted - 18 Jan 2011 : 17:33:36
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Ah okay, heh! I thought I read that Oubold's grandson or great-grandson (or whatever) was the new king.
If the original Oubold is an exarch, that means he must've had a very interesting final career. Makes me wonder if we'll ever hear more about that. |
Female, 40-year DM of a homebrew-evolved 1E Realms, including a few added tidbits of 2E and 3E lore; played originally in AD&D, then in Rolemaster. Be a DM for your kids and grandkids, gaming is excellent for families! |
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Alisttair
Great Reader
Canada
3054 Posts |
Posted - 18 Jan 2011 : 18:20:20
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quote:
Originally posted by Therise
Ah okay, heh! I thought I read that Oubold's grandson or great-grandson (or whatever) was the new king.
If the original Oubold is an exarch, that means he must've had a very interesting final career. Makes me wonder if we'll ever hear more about that.
Put that on the wish list of Salvatore novels. back story of Zaknafein and Jarlaxle, final days of Wulfgar, and the divine ascension of Obould  . I would like to see all three novelized.
This goes in the whole Bane/Xvim story wishlist for Ed to write as well . |
Karsite Arcanar (Most Holy Servant of Karsus)
Anauria - Survivor State of Netheril as penned by me:
http://www.dmsguild.com/m/product/172023 |
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Chosen of Asmodeus
Master of Realmslore
1221 Posts |
Posted - 19 Jan 2011 : 07:54:32
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Well, once again I'd like to thank everyone for their help, fruitless as this has been. Was asking as the latest character I'm working on is a half-orc paladin of Obould and I wanted him to have Obould's holy symbol tattooed on his back before realizing I didn't know what said symbol actually was. Think I'll end up going with a greatsword crossed with arrows.
Also, Gauntlgrym spoiler;
Obould apparently dies of old age at the start of the book. Which when you think about it is kind of badass; when have you ever heard of an orc dying of old age? Being the one orc so tough that time was the only enemy that could kill him. I'm assuming his ascention entailed killing Ilneval since said god is no where to be found in 4e, and taking over the traitor's portfolio of applying thinking and tactics to standard orc rage in warfare, which is very much in line with Obould's personality. |
"Then I saw there was a way to Hell even from the gates of Heaven"
- John Bunyan, Pilgrim's Progress
Fatum Iustum Stultorum. Righteous is the destiny of fools.
The Roleplayer's Gazebo;
http://theroleplayersgazebo.yuku.com/directory#.Ub4hvvlJOAY |
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swifty
Senior Scribe
United Kingdom
517 Posts |
Posted - 19 Jan 2011 : 10:12:42
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quote:
Originally posted by Alisttair
quote:
Originally posted by Therise
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Therise
Wait... Obould is actually a demigod in 4E?
When did this happen, and where?
IIRC, he was made an exarch in the 4E FRCG.
That's interesting. For some reason I thought he was dead and his descendant was on his throne.
His descendant is on his throne. Obould I is a divine exarch to Gruumsh.
sorry to be dumb but what does exarch to gruumsh mean exactly.also did i read somewhere once that gruumsh and talos were one and the same. |
go back to sleep america.everything is under control.heres american gladiators.watch this.shuttup. BILL HICKS. |
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Tyranthraxus
Senior Scribe
Netherlands
423 Posts |
Posted - 19 Jan 2011 : 11:10:31
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| The way I see it is that exarchs are what used to be demigods, but serve another deity. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36803 Posts |
Posted - 19 Jan 2011 : 11:48:29
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quote:
Originally posted by Chosen of Asmodeus
I'm assuming his ascention entailed killing Ilneval since said god is no where to be found in 4e, and taking over the traitor's portfolio of applying thinking and tactics to standard orc rage in warfare, which is very much in line with Obould's personality.
Not necessarily. 4E entirely rearranged the pantheons, often without logic or explanation. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Alisttair
Great Reader
Canada
3054 Posts |
Posted - 19 Jan 2011 : 11:58:51
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quote:
Originally posted by Tyranthraxus
The way I see it is that exarchs are what used to be demigods, but serve another deity.
Pretty much this. For example, Clanggeddin and other dwarf deities are exarchs of Moradin. Fzoul is an exarch of Bane. Milil is one of Oghma, etc...
Just a new name for the same job with slight alteration to the job description. |
Karsite Arcanar (Most Holy Servant of Karsus)
Anauria - Survivor State of Netheril as penned by me:
http://www.dmsguild.com/m/product/172023 |
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Chosen of Asmodeus
Master of Realmslore
1221 Posts |
Posted - 19 Jan 2011 : 19:58:05
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Chosen of Asmodeus
I'm assuming his ascention entailed killing Ilneval since said god is no where to be found in 4e, and taking over the traitor's portfolio of applying thinking and tactics to standard orc rage in warfare, which is very much in line with Obould's personality.
Not necessarily. 4E entirely rearranged the pantheons, often without logic or explanation.
Ok, I'll word that differently; within the context of my home game, the explaination I'm using for Ilneval's absence is Obould killing him upon ascention and taking over his role among the orc gods. |
"Then I saw there was a way to Hell even from the gates of Heaven"
- John Bunyan, Pilgrim's Progress
Fatum Iustum Stultorum. Righteous is the destiny of fools.
The Roleplayer's Gazebo;
http://theroleplayersgazebo.yuku.com/directory#.Ub4hvvlJOAY |
Edited by - Chosen of Asmodeus on 19 Jan 2011 19:59:05 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36803 Posts |
Posted - 19 Jan 2011 : 21:57:47
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quote:
Originally posted by Chosen of Asmodeus
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Chosen of Asmodeus
I'm assuming his ascention entailed killing Ilneval since said god is no where to be found in 4e, and taking over the traitor's portfolio of applying thinking and tactics to standard orc rage in warfare, which is very much in line with Obould's personality.
Not necessarily. 4E entirely rearranged the pantheons, often without logic or explanation.
Ok, I'll word that differently; within the context of my home game, the explaination I'm using for Ilneval's absence is Obould killing him upon ascention and taking over his role among the orc gods.
It's a reasonable assumption. I don't know of anything that supports it, in canon, but I also don't know of anything that says otherwise. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Mr_Miscellany
Senior Scribe
545 Posts |
Posted - 19 Jan 2011 : 22:03:19
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Not necessarily. 4E entirely rearranged the pantheons, often without logic or explanation.
The basic arrangment of the Pantheon in the 4E Realms was pretty well explained in the 4E FRCG.
The deeper "why" answers aren't there—which is where the lack of explanation Wooly is talking about comes in—but that's what allows someone like Chosen of Asmodeus to fill in the gaps with his theories and ideas for his game. Standard operating procedure for FR Dungeon Masters, that.
The claim the Pantheon was done "without logic" isn't true and is 4E bashing. The game designers didn't just write things willy nilly.
quote:
Originally posted by Alisttair
Nothing official yet unless something appears in the RPGA adventures that were never released to the public...
These were released recently.
See THIS LINK for the LFR adventure archive. |
Edited by - Mr_Miscellany on 19 Jan 2011 22:12:32 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36803 Posts |
Posted - 19 Jan 2011 : 22:44:19
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It's not 4E bashing. Saying that deity X is really deity Y, even in contradiction to prior lore, or that deity Z wasn't the full-on deity he's always been described as but merely an ascended mortal servant of another deity, is not logical.
I'll call any unexplained retcon illogical, regardless of edition. I've said it enough about some of the changes from 2E to 3E.
Give me an explanation that is logical and explains away the inconsistencies with prior lore, and I will withdraw my complaints. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Mr_Miscellany
Senior Scribe
545 Posts |
Posted - 19 Jan 2011 : 23:53:51
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
It's not 4E bashing. Saying that deity X is really deity Y, even in contradiction to prior lore...
Well, we know Ed and THO have both repeated time and again that deities can be aspects of other deities. They can answer prayers of the failthful of another deity, masquerading as that god for centuries if need be.
The phrase "All the Watching Gods" comes to mind.
We know that deities can come and go in cycles. We know deities can split apart and merge.
That's all in established lore.
We also know from experience that sourcebook and even novel lore isn't absolute. Just because one layer is revealed doesn't mean that's it and we're done. Deities are mutable beings. That's a given in the lore.
With each edition change, the deities change too. Parts of the Pantheon are expanded, new pantheons are written in and the Realms grows to fit the needs of the game system.
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Give me an explanation that is logical and explains away the inconsistencies with prior lore, and I will withdraw my complaints.
Done.
I'll only add that we don't know everything about deities in the Realms. I can understand a person's strong desire to have every single bit laid out, with each piece neatly fitting into the next, but this is the Forgotten Realms, not a jigsaw puzzle.
What you see as inconsistencies are really mysteries. What you see as a retcon was in fact a major revelation about how deities function in the Realms, with its roots in Ed's comments about the deities.
The Realms are mysterious on purpose, so DMs can fill in the gaps. That's why I like Chosen of Asmodeus' explanation. He's doing what Realms DMs have been doing for over two decades, and he's doing it well. |
Edited by - Mr_Miscellany on 20 Jan 2011 00:09:18 |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31772 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jan 2011 : 00:28:26
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Chosen of Asmodeus
I'm assuming his ascention entailed killing Ilneval since said god is no where to be found in 4e, and taking over the traitor's portfolio of applying thinking and tactics to standard orc rage in warfare, which is very much in line with Obould's personality.
Not necessarily. 4E entirely rearranged the pantheons, often without logic or explanation.
I wouldn't say entirely without logic or explanation. As Mr. Miscellany notes, the FRCG does provide some details for the changes, though not completely. However, several DDI 'deity-related" articles also provide some basic info on the transition between the pre-Spellplague pantheon arrangement, and that of the post-Spellplague period. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31772 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jan 2011 : 00:33:42
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quote:
Originally posted by Tyranthraxus
The way I see it is that exarchs are what used to be demigods, but serve another deity.
Essentially, yes. Exarchs are likely to remain as the quite powerful servants of deities -- to the point of being more divinely powerful than than a mortal cleric, but just a step below an actual deity. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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Alisttair
Great Reader
Canada
3054 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jan 2011 : 11:27:20
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quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
quote:
Originally posted by Tyranthraxus
The way I see it is that exarchs are what used to be demigods, but serve another deity.
Essentially, yes. Exarchs are likely to remain as the quite powerful servants of deities -- to the point of being more divinely powerful than than a mortal cleric, but just a step below an actual deity.
Just to add to what Sage said, between the mortal cleric and the Exarch lies the Chosen (epic destiny for PCs, no known NPC Chosen this time around as far as I can tell). |
Karsite Arcanar (Most Holy Servant of Karsus)
Anauria - Survivor State of Netheril as penned by me:
http://www.dmsguild.com/m/product/172023 |
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Therise
Master of Realmslore
1272 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jan 2011 : 19:31:58
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This makes me wonder... is "Exarch" really just the new 4E name for a "Chosen"? Or does Exarch imply a lot more, like akin to the old "demigod" usage in older editions?
I guess I sort of thought about it being more like someone who has ascended, not like a mortal Chosen. Exarchs are in service to a greater deity, but still have a measure of true divinity. But now I'm starting to wonder, maybe "Exarch" and "Chosen" are almost equivalent?
Technically, we haven't seen "Chosen" at all for any 4E deity, have we?
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Female, 40-year DM of a homebrew-evolved 1E Realms, including a few added tidbits of 2E and 3E lore; played originally in AD&D, then in Rolemaster. Be a DM for your kids and grandkids, gaming is excellent for families! |
Edited by - Therise on 20 Jan 2011 19:33:25 |
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Quale
Master of Realmslore
1757 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jan 2011 : 21:55:57
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exharchs are worshiped as gods, the chosen aren't
less powerful exarchs like Artus Cimber are closer to proxies |
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Chosen of Asmodeus
Master of Realmslore
1221 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jan 2011 : 22:37:41
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| Way it explains it is that Exarchs are basicly demigods, tied to the service of greater deities. It also explains that Chosen are generally elevated to the possition of Exarchs either when their task is done, or upon their death. |
"Then I saw there was a way to Hell even from the gates of Heaven"
- John Bunyan, Pilgrim's Progress
Fatum Iustum Stultorum. Righteous is the destiny of fools.
The Roleplayer's Gazebo;
http://theroleplayersgazebo.yuku.com/directory#.Ub4hvvlJOAY |
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Therise
Master of Realmslore
1272 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jan 2011 : 22:38:19
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Fzoul Chembryl is an Exarch now (formerly Bane's Chosen), although I have a hard time picturing anyone worshipping him as a deity.
...and I don't think there are any "Chosen" in 4E, are there?
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Female, 40-year DM of a homebrew-evolved 1E Realms, including a few added tidbits of 2E and 3E lore; played originally in AD&D, then in Rolemaster. Be a DM for your kids and grandkids, gaming is excellent for families! |
Edited by - Therise on 20 Jan 2011 22:39:08 |
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Therise
Master of Realmslore
1272 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jan 2011 : 22:40:42
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quote:
Originally posted by Chosen of Asmodeus
Way it explains it is that Exarchs are basicly demigods, tied to the service of greater deities. It also explains that Chosen are generally elevated to the possition of Exarchs either when their task is done, or upon their death.
This would explain Fzoul, I guess. Do they have new rules for "Chosen" in 4E?
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Female, 40-year DM of a homebrew-evolved 1E Realms, including a few added tidbits of 2E and 3E lore; played originally in AD&D, then in Rolemaster. Be a DM for your kids and grandkids, gaming is excellent for families! |
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Topic |
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Question regarding Obould the demigod
