| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| D1Nonly |
Posted - 09 Jan 2011 : 00:36:15
i just re-read LOD, and got caught up in the wording for the destruction of nethril.. it said (not quoting directly) that karsus did not maintain the power long enough to fulfill his goal.
is there a newer book that contradicts this saying that it was doomed from the start? i feel LOD makes it a bit ambiguous in the sense of him gaining the experience needed to wield it properly was the issue, not the initial "snags".
any thoughts? |
| 30 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| Dennis |
Posted - 10 Feb 2011 : 05:34:42
Search for the individual books. Each just ranges from $2 to $3.
Sword Play
Dangerous Games
Mortal Consequences
I think the reason Dangerous Games generally has a higher price is because more people would want to buy it, as that's where Karsus staged his attempt at godhood.
|
| Ayrik |
Posted - 10 Feb 2011 : 05:10:19
I'd go with the used bookstore route. Or public library. These books are outrageously priced on Amazon. |
| Dennis |
Posted - 10 Feb 2011 : 04:58:25
There's always Amazon and eBay. Used bookstores are worth a visit, too. In fact, I bought most of 1e and 2e FR novels from used bookstores. |
| althen artren |
Posted - 10 Feb 2011 : 04:49:51
I guess this Netheril trilogy is out of print huh? |
| Dennis |
Posted - 10 Feb 2011 : 03:09:37
It was not the mythallar alone, but the mythallar coupled with various magical experiments which resulted to what the phaerimm called "magic storms," which sometimes they blundered into and died.
Here's something from Swordplay:
quote:
Bad,thought one. Words, for it, were useless.Too bad. Dead.
The magic storms come more and more frequently.
More and more the fault of the Above-World.
Neth, they call themselves. Wizards, toying with magic, squandering it. We starve for magic they waste.
We must tell them, warn them not to trifle. We learned long ago.
We cannot tell them. One of us just exploded trying to do so.
Adding its dweomer to the magic storms raging everywhere, and aggravating the problem.
|
| althen artren |
Posted - 10 Feb 2011 : 02:55:26
The Phaerimm were driven deep underground with their war with the sarrukh.
Do we assume that the pull of mythrallar on magic in the surrounding weave is
enough to go MILES? underground through solid rock?
Far be it from me, but the stated reason the phaerimm went on the offensive
seems far-fetched. Could this be one of those instances where "this is what
history says" but it not be the truth? |
| Dennis |
Posted - 09 Feb 2011 : 04:56:55
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
Nah, the one above that happened first: "We cannot tell them. One of us just exploded trying to do so." They tried lifedrain after that. But seeing that it took a very long time for it to have a significant effect on the empire, they tried direct visitation again. And failed. Besides, even before casting lifedrain, they tried astral visitation---which would have been better than direct visition (by which the archwizards would lash out at them by instinct as they viewed them as devils) had the wizards not turned mad. Such efforts show that they did TRY. So you may admit that you made an incorrect assumption.
Well, it is an attempt. But I can't consider it a serious attempt -- as I said, these guys are high-level mages, and quite intelligent. They could have charmed someone and used him as a spokesman, they could have sent projected illusions of themselves as human... Heck, they could have even created 30 foot tall letters of fire that say "We apologize for the inconvenience" "Hey, can we talk?"
And sorry, but if I'm a high-level human wizard, and some freaky looking critter comes floating up to me, I am also going to be inclined to not let it get in the first shot.
And one of those bits you quoted does say lifedrain first, then another attempt at talking. So it's after the phaerimm have attacked the Netherese that they try talking to them. For intelligent critters, that's pretty dumb.
I'll not say the Netherese are blameless, but I don't think the phaerimm are, either.
The issue that I was trying to address is that you made an incorrect assumption that the phaerimm did NOT try to warn the archwizards, because clearly you did not recall those bits I quoted from Swordplay. It's not the issue whether the attempt was serious or not; it was an attempt nonetheless. To quote your very exact words: "When did they ask the Netherese to stop, or try to negotiate? They didn't..." Now, that's clearly wrong, as far as the novel---and therefore, canon--- goes.
And I conceded that point.
We're on agreement on the matter about the attempt being not enough.
The problem lies in making the attempt look "enough," because given the nature of the archwizards, I doubt if any warning would ever be enough. They viewed the phaerimm as powerful devils whose penchant for spellcasting matched theirs; and so it was almost always an instinct for them to distrust the conical creatures and vanquish them forthwith upon sight. Indirect, harmless warning, delivered by, say, enthralled and transmuted gigantic talking eagles, might only be seen by the conceited archwizards as an attempt of some of their foes or some jealous organizations to stunt their magical growth as an empire. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 07 Feb 2011 : 11:21:08
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
Nah, the one above that happened first: "We cannot tell them. One of us just exploded trying to do so." They tried lifedrain after that. But seeing that it took a very long time for it to have a significant effect on the empire, they tried direct visitation again. And failed. Besides, even before casting lifedrain, they tried astral visitation---which would have been better than direct visition (by which the archwizards would lash out at them by instinct as they viewed them as devils) had the wizards not turned mad. Such efforts show that they did TRY. So you may admit that you made an incorrect assumption.
Well, it is an attempt. But I can't consider it a serious attempt -- as I said, these guys are high-level mages, and quite intelligent. They could have charmed someone and used him as a spokesman, they could have sent projected illusions of themselves as human... Heck, they could have even created 30 foot tall letters of fire that say "We apologize for the inconvenience" "Hey, can we talk?"
And sorry, but if I'm a high-level human wizard, and some freaky looking critter comes floating up to me, I am also going to be inclined to not let it get in the first shot.
And one of those bits you quoted does say lifedrain first, then another attempt at talking. So it's after the phaerimm have attacked the Netherese that they try talking to them. For intelligent critters, that's pretty dumb.
I'll not say the Netherese are blameless, but I don't think the phaerimm are, either.
The issue that I was trying to address is that you made an incorrect assumption that the phaerimm did NOT try to warn the archwizards, because clearly you did not recall those bits I quoted from Swordplay. It's not the issue whether the attempt was serious or not; it was an attempt nonetheless. To quote your very exact words: "When did they ask the Netherese to stop, or try to negotiate? They didn't..." Now, that's clearly wrong, as far as the novel---and therefore, canon--- goes.
And I conceded that point. |
| Ayrik |
Posted - 07 Feb 2011 : 06:26:17
30 foot tall letters of fire ... no doubt the phaerimm would use 26000-point MS Comic Sans, the most casually abused font in the cosmos. |
| Dennis |
Posted - 07 Feb 2011 : 06:06:02
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
Nah, the one above that happened first: "We cannot tell them. One of us just exploded trying to do so." They tried lifedrain after that. But seeing that it took a very long time for it to have a significant effect on the empire, they tried direct visitation again. And failed. Besides, even before casting lifedrain, they tried astral visitation---which would have been better than direct visition (by which the archwizards would lash out at them by instinct as they viewed them as devils) had the wizards not turned mad. Such efforts show that they did TRY. So you may admit that you made an incorrect assumption.
Well, it is an attempt. But I can't consider it a serious attempt -- as I said, these guys are high-level mages, and quite intelligent. They could have charmed someone and used him as a spokesman, they could have sent projected illusions of themselves as human... Heck, they could have even created 30 foot tall letters of fire that say "We apologize for the inconvenience" "Hey, can we talk?"
And sorry, but if I'm a high-level human wizard, and some freaky looking critter comes floating up to me, I am also going to be inclined to not let it get in the first shot.
And one of those bits you quoted does say lifedrain first, then another attempt at talking. So it's after the phaerimm have attacked the Netherese that they try talking to them. For intelligent critters, that's pretty dumb.
I'll not say the Netherese are blameless, but I don't think the phaerimm are, either.
The issue that I was trying to address is that you made an incorrect assumption that the phaerimm did NOT try to warn the archwizards, because clearly you did not recall those bits I quoted from Swordplay. It's not the issue whether the attempt was serious or not; it was an attempt nonetheless. To quote your very exact words: "When did they ask the Netherese to stop, or try to negotiate? They didn't..." Now, that's clearly wrong, as far as the novel---and therefore, canon--- goes. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 06 Feb 2011 : 00:39:05
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
Nah, the one above that happened first: "We cannot tell them. One of us just exploded trying to do so." They tried lifedrain after that. But seeing that it took a very long time for it to have a significant effect on the empire, they tried direct visitation again. And failed. Besides, even before casting lifedrain, they tried astral visitation---which would have been better than direct visition (by which the archwizards would lash out at them by instinct as they viewed them as devils) had the wizards not turned mad. Such efforts show that they did TRY. So you may admit that you made an incorrect assumption.
Well, it is an attempt. But I can't consider it a serious attempt -- as I said, these guys are high-level mages, and quite intelligent. They could have charmed someone and used him as a spokesman, they could have sent projected illusions of themselves as human... Heck, they could have even created 30 foot tall letters of fire that say "We apologize for the inconvenience" "Hey, can we talk?"
And sorry, but if I'm a high-level human wizard, and some freaky looking critter comes floating up to me, I am also going to be inclined to not let it get in the first shot.
And one of those bits you quoted does say lifedrain first, then another attempt at talking. So it's after the phaerimm have attacked the Netherese that they try talking to them. For intelligent critters, that's pretty dumb.
I'll not say the Netherese are blameless, but I don't think the phaerimm are, either. |
| The Sage |
Posted - 06 Feb 2011 : 00:02:09
quote:
Originally posted by Erdrick Stormedge
The Scribes of Candlekeep have been long cloistered in their halls, Arik, bandying the same perspectives forwards and backwards in nigh endless reaffirmations of some-same perspectives.
Neither canon evidence nor logical inference will stymie their self-purported 'last-word' on all things Abeir-Torilian.
Errr... the very fact that Realms designers and writers have often voluntarily chosen to spend some degree of their precious free-time here at Candlekeep over the last seven years, to chit and chat about the setting we all know and love, suggests very much otherwise.
That, and the fact that certain Realms scribes are sought out by those same designers/writers for commentary about ideas and concepts concerning official Realms material. The collective opinions of the scribes of Candlekeep would indeed seem to matter very much to those grand individuals. |
| Dennis |
Posted - 05 Feb 2011 : 22:44:47
Nah, the one above that happened first: "We cannot tell them. One of us just exploded trying to do so." They tried lifedrain after that. But seeing that it took a very long time for it to have a significant effect on the empire, they tried direct visitation again. And failed. Besides, even before casting lifedrain, they tried astral visitation---which would have been better than direct visition (by which the archwizards would lash out at them by instinct as they viewed them as devils) had the wizards not turned mad. Such efforts show that they did TRY. So you may admit that you made an incorrect assumption. |
| Tasker Daze |
Posted - 05 Feb 2011 : 22:42:44
quote:
Originally posted by Erdrick Stormedge
The Scribes of Candlekeep have been long cloistered in their halls, Arik, bandying the same perspectives forwards and backwards in nigh endless reaffirmations of some-same perspectives.
Neither canon evidence nor logical inference will stymie their self-purported 'last-word' on all things Abeir-Torilian.
And other scribes come forth only to offer smug insults.
Are you here to discuss the Realms, or just to feel superior to everyone else? |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 05 Feb 2011 : 22:28:49
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
They're really intelligent, and high-level mages, too. Send a simple projection that looks human.
Notice they mention using lifedrain before trying to actually visit? That indicates they went on the offensive before exhausting their methods of negotiation. And causing people to go mad and kill each other isn't something that encourages those people to listen to you...
The boxed set makes no mention of the phaerimm attempting to communicate with the Netherese, and the bits you've quoted show only a token effort, at best.
Read the quotes again. Those two happened in order. They made a direct visitation before resorting to lifedrain; and one of them was even killed in doing so.
My counter-argument, supported by those information from the novel, was not to justify that the phaerimm's efforts were enough. It was only to show that your assumption that they did not try is wrong..
I did read them in order -- specifically, "We tried visions, we tried lifedrain. Now we've tried direct visitation." That says visitation was tried after the phaerimm went on the offensive. |
| Dennis |
Posted - 05 Feb 2011 : 22:20:38
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
They're really intelligent, and high-level mages, too. Send a simple projection that looks human.
Notice they mention using lifedrain before trying to actually visit? That indicates they went on the offensive before exhausting their methods of negotiation. And causing people to go mad and kill each other isn't something that encourages those people to listen to you...
The boxed set makes no mention of the phaerimm attempting to communicate with the Netherese, and the bits you've quoted show only a token effort, at best.
Read the quotes again. Those two happened in order. They made a direct visitation before resorting to lifedrain; and one of them was even killed in doing so.
My counter-argument, supported by those information from the novel, was not to justify that the phaerimm's efforts were enough. It was only to show that your assumption that they did not try is wrong.. |
| Erdrick Stormedge |
Posted - 05 Feb 2011 : 18:33:22
The Scribes of Candlekeep have been long cloistered in their halls, Arik, bandying the same perspectives forwards and backwards in nigh endless reaffirmations of some-same perspectives.
Neither canon evidence nor logical inference will stymie their self-purported 'last-word' on all things Abeir-Torilian. |
| Ayrik |
Posted - 05 Feb 2011 : 15:16:10
I offer an hypothetical parallel — Aliens start dumping all of their civilization's industrial garbage, pollution, and toxic/nuclear waste into our oceans, poisoning our ecosystem and threatening our species with extinction. Let's say this has already killed half our population, including most of our children. They have thus far been oblivious or uncaring, they have in fact blasted the few humans who've gotten too close. Do we attempt to communicate with these aliens, or do we just attack? And if we attack, do we stop with our solar system or do we use captured ships/tech to carry our retribution to the stars? Let's say we have a superweapon that might assure victory, but only if we use it now. If we choose to attack, will other races judge us as evil and immoral?
Let's carry the hypotheticals one step further — If we attack (successfully) we may discover that hostilities between our two species are irreversible. Perhaps their biology uses genetically encoded memory and they are thus already programmed to hate us even before they're born/hatched. Perhaps their telepathically-linked species is somehow triggered into a berserk murderous rage/hatred by our "bad thinking". Perhaps the viruses encoded in our DNA are bioweapons of mass destruction to them (and their ecosystem), or vice-versa. Do we choose to negotiate/communicate, perhaps hopelessly, perhaps waging war forever? Or do we attempt to imprison or subjugate their entire race, denying them any chance of ever attacking us again? Or do we go for permanent genocide? Which option is (less) evil? |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 05 Feb 2011 : 14:11:15
They're really intelligent, and high-level mages, too. Send a simple projection that looks human.
Notice they mention using lifedrain before trying to actually visit? That indicates they went on the offensive before exhausting their methods of negotiation. And causing people to go mad and kill each other isn't something that encourages those people to listen to you...
The boxed set makes no mention of the phaerimm attempting to communicate with the Netherese, and the bits you've quoted show only a token effort, at best. |
| Dennis |
Posted - 05 Feb 2011 : 06:12:30
Wooly, as promised:
quote:
from Swordplay
We must tell them, warn them not to trifle. We learned long ago.
We cannot tell them. One of us just exploded trying to do so.
quote:
from Swordplay
Nothing works. We tried astral visitation and only drove wizards mad. They clawed out their eyes, tore out their hearts, killed their fellows until at last they killed themselves. We tried visions, we tried lifedrain. Now we've tried direct visitation.
And failed.
|
| Dennis |
Posted - 05 Feb 2011 : 06:03:04
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
If the Netherese were hoarding magic, then the Phaerimm wouldn't have been able to use magic against them.
And were the phaerimm really in the right, anyway? When did they ask the Netherese to stop, or try to negotiate? They didn't -- they just indiscriminately lashed out, and caused serious environmental damage in the process.
Incorrect. 'Twas stated in The Netheril trilogy that they DID try to negotiate, but upon seeing them, the archwizards felt threatened and immediately lashed out, killing some of them.
Yeah, that's really trying. One mistaken encounter, and then genocide.
I don't recall that from the trilogy, and the boxed set definitely makes no mention of that -- I was just looking at that the other day.
It was mentioned by the phaerimm themselves. And they didn't attempt it just once, but a few times. I'll look for it later.
I didn't disagree with you that they were in the right, because as I mentioned before, it might just be their excuse to rid of their enemies [the Netherese] and consume their magic. Evil races would often favor evil ways, as that's easier than doing what's right. What I disagree with is your assumption that they did not try, because they DID. They just didn't anticipate that the archwizards would lash out at them forthwith without even hearing their side of the story. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 05 Feb 2011 : 05:23:24
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
If the Netherese were hoarding magic, then the Phaerimm wouldn't have been able to use magic against them.
And were the phaerimm really in the right, anyway? When did they ask the Netherese to stop, or try to negotiate? They didn't -- they just indiscriminately lashed out, and caused serious environmental damage in the process.
Incorrect. 'Twas stated in The Netheril trilogy that they DID try to negotiate, but upon seeing them, the archwizards felt threatened and immediately lashed out, killing some of them.
Yeah, that's really trying. One mistaken encounter, and then genocide.
I don't recall that from the trilogy, and the boxed set definitely makes no mention of that -- I was just looking at that the other day. |
| Dennis |
Posted - 05 Feb 2011 : 04:40:54
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
If the Netherese were hoarding magic, then the Phaerimm wouldn't have been able to use magic against them.
And were the phaerimm really in the right, anyway? When did they ask the Netherese to stop, or try to negotiate? They didn't -- they just indiscriminately lashed out, and caused serious environmental damage in the process.
Incorrect. 'Twas stated in The Netheril trilogy that they DID try to negotiate, but upon seeing them, the archwizards felt threatened and immediately lashed out, killing some of them. |
| The Sage |
Posted - 31 Jan 2011 : 13:52:34
quote:
Originally posted by Arik
quote:
The Sage Operth
... both Chopin and F# aren't entirely appropriate examples here. Liszt would be a better reference. Especially given the difficulties inherent with F#.
Those difficulties are nothing compared to those inherent with C#. I'll confuse this pointless "debate" further by mentioning Beethoven's Great Fugue without any apparent reason or context.
Heh. I'm writing an article on C# for a local computing magazine at the moment. It's primarily focusing on the next lot of updates for the language -- and how users can get the most out of their C-Sharp programs. |
| Ayrik |
Posted - 31 Jan 2011 : 12:26:21
quote:
The Sage Operth
... both Chopin and F# aren't entirely appropriate examples here. Liszt would be a better reference. Especially given the difficulties inherent with F#.
Those difficulties are nothing compared to those inherent with C#. I'll confuse this pointless "debate" further by mentioning Beethoven's Great Fugue without any apparent reason or context. |
| Dennis |
Posted - 31 Jan 2011 : 10:51:21
quote:
Originally posted by Arik
I speculate the phaerimm as a group were evil long before this contact — if they were non-evil they would likely have sought solutions which did not involve a genocidal war.
Precisely.
In addition, they would not have been so stupid as to lead the maddest wizard on the planet to the Stone/Star. |
| Ayrik |
Posted - 31 Jan 2011 : 10:46:38
There's little need to speculate: Netheril already answers this question well enough.
The primary problem was the mythallars — but this was greatly exasperated by unconstrained Netherese use/abuse of powerful magics which could create or change weather, mythals, and mountains (ie, use magic to permanently change the region).
"... [Mythallars] converted raw magic from the weave of Mystryl and sent that power throughout an enclave to provide the magical energies required for quasimagical items to continue operating ... the mythallar was absolutely necessary to keep the city afloat ... the mythallar had an effective range of one mile ..."
Few actual descriptions are given for mythallars, and it is hinted that each one has a distinctly unique appearance. The only mythallars I recall being described in any detail were the (two) in the Karsus Enclave, the (destroyed?) one in Thultanthar/Shade, and the quasi-sentient one recovered from Sakkors.
I think of these being something vaguely like large powerful engines which constantly churn, rumble, pulse, vibrate, rattle, and whine the way a large jet engine, rocket booster, or hydroelectric turbine does. Remember that a single mythallar can levitate an entire city and power countless quasimagical items — it's basically a self-contained magical version of a nuclear power plant or starship warp core ... lots of power. Machines of this scale always generate a lot of noise and a lot of pollution. I wonder if they require maintenance. Of course, being D&D/fantasy, I'd expect that these things can be blown up quite spectacularly when somebody bangs them around or tampers with their magic.
"... [Elves] felt uncomfortable in or near Netheril’s cities ... Whenever an elf was in or directly underneath a floating city, they lost many of their innate abilities, including their sleep resistance and 50% of their charm resistance."
From the context, I suspect that this applies to the natural magical abilities of most non-human races, possibly even including dragons. It doesn't seem unreasonable to apply similar magical penalties to phaerimm (especially young/undeveloped phaerimm) who are within the mythallar field.
"... Phaerimm are creatures who need magic in their environment to survive. Their stomachs and intestinal tracts use a strange symbiosis of magic and digestive juices to assimilate the nutrients in their diet. Without magic, phaerimm starve to death."
This is pretty much everything we know about phaerimm biology. They need magic to survive, they need magic to reproduce. The Netherese (or at least their mythallars) were somehow consuming or polluting this magic, so the phaerimm attacked.
It might be argued that that the phaerimm were only defending their race or perhaps driven toward evil and insanity through their desperation (think of whales driven to madness/anger by the noise of boat propellers). I think it's far more likely the phaerimm as a group were evil long before this contact — if they were non-evil they would likely have sought solutions which did not involve a genocidal war. |
| Dennis |
Posted - 31 Jan 2011 : 09:47:41
I will not defend the phaerimm. They have always been nothing but evil. That the Netherese were hoarding magic and inadvertently killing a number of phaerimm amidst some convoluted magical storms was just the phaerimm's evil excuse at that moment. They get what they want and need in whatever ways and at any time. They are dependent on magic too much, and would do almost anything to drain whatever city, nation, or region that's awash with magic, for to survive they have to. They could have chosen some non- or less destructive means consume magic, but that they chose otherwise already speaks of their nature. Besides, for an evil race, the destructive ways are always easier than the right ones. |
| althen artren |
Posted - 30 Jan 2011 : 04:10:36
I think it has been a shame on how the way Netheril used magic and that it destroyed th
young of the phaerimm has never been explained.
Could this have been the event to drive them evil, or were they evil before?
Speculate now: |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 29 Jan 2011 : 04:23:03
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
If the Netherese were hoarding magic, then the Phaerimm wouldn't have been able to use magic against them.
Indeed. Even their spelljamming knowledge was jealously guarded/hoarded.
quote:
And were the phaerimm really in the right, anyway? When did they ask the Netherese to stop, or try to negotiate? They didn't -- they just indiscriminately lashed out, and caused serious environmental damage in the process.
In the slight defence of the phaerimm, I doubt the arrogance of the Netherese would've allowed them to consider things from the point of view of the phaerimm. Both sides were destined toward conflict.
True. I just wanted to clarify that the phaerimm weren't innocent passers-by, caught up in something that didn't involve them. |
|
|
