| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Dennis |
Posted - 14 Dec 2010 : 05:50:26
The only (or greatest) deterrent to Thay's ambition of conquering Aglarond is the Witch-Queen herself. Now that she's gone – and Tam and the Red Wizards know it – what or who is keeping them from taking the necessary actions? I understand some of Tam's resources are being used elsewhere to erect the Dread Rings. But isn't Aglarond the best place for the DR's, all things considered? If not, once Tam successfully annexes it to Thay, he would possess far more resources for his greater goals. That alone is worth a try to conquer Aglarond.
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| 30 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| Dennis |
Posted - 02 Feb 2011 : 11:20:42
quote:
Originally posted by Zanan
Would have been a great idea not to place such neat a spoiler in the topic line ...
Done.
---
I didn't read BED after finding EMD thoroughly disappointing. But I heard that the Simbul is now cured of her momentary madness. Is she back in Aglarond? Was it ever mentioned what protected her realm (against hostile forces like Thay) during her (seemingly) long absence? |
| Zanan |
Posted - 02 Feb 2011 : 10:51:46
Would have been a great idea not to place such neat a spoiler in the topic line ... |
| Dennis |
Posted - 01 Feb 2011 : 09:42:19
I don't dislike Richard's new representation of Tam. I was just surprised. I agree that it adds more to the character than diminishes it.
---
Should RAS use Thay and the DRs more in the following Neverwinter books, the question in the OP would most certainly be answered. He would have to explain why on Toril is Tam building his Dread Rings in the Sword Coast when his neighbors' lands are just an arm's reach.
Or maybe not.
Maybe Tam is trying to keep the attention of the Realms's powerful from the true location of the DRs. That one in the SC could be just a fake. He might have already started creating some on the ocean floor, with the help of his undead water creatures which Xingax must have created (before its "death") for that very purpose. |
| Ayrik |
Posted - 01 Feb 2011 : 08:36:26
It appears to me more like RLB was exploring unseen depths in Szass's character. I'm a little hesitant about entirely agreeing with this unpredictable swerve of personality ... though it leads to interesting places and (I think) it adds more to the character than it takes away. Unpredictability is one of Szass's virtues, anyhow. And who's to say I (or RLB) could possibly understand the thinking process of a centuries-old lich anyhow? |
| Dennis |
Posted - 01 Feb 2011 : 08:24:21
I can't forget it because it actually contradicts what "I" thought about Tam before events in the HL. I thought he'd long ago accepted the inevitability of his undeath, and to a certain degree appreciated it. He'd always exuded confidence and composure---and self-loathing, I thought, was never his wont.
It appears like he must have been keeping it to himself, and for centuries have been looking for ways to free himself from it. |
| Ayrik |
Posted - 01 Feb 2011 : 07:24:49
You're right, I can't argue against that.  |
| Dennis |
Posted - 01 Feb 2011 : 06:44:18
Finally, I found it. From Unholy:
quote:
Szass Tam turned his regard on himself. Except for his withered hands, he might look like a living man, and, with his lean frame, keen, intellectual features, and neat black goatee, a reasonably handsome one at that. But he acknowledged the underlying reality of his fetid breath, silent heart, and cold, leathery flesh suffused with poison. The idiot priests were right about one thing: Undeath was an abomination. He was an abomination, or at least his physical form was. He could scarcely wait for the moment when he would replace it.
There. Indeed he loathes his existence as a lich---an abomination. |
| Dennis |
Posted - 01 Feb 2011 : 05:36:28
quote:
Originally posted by Tyrant
quote:
Originally posted by Arik
quote:
Dennis
Note also that deep inside [Szass] hates himself for being a lich---a sheer corrupted existence he wishes to "correct" through the grand ritual.
I'm not certain I can agree with this part of your answer, D.
As I understand it, Szass was initially unhappy with his lichdom. He was killed "too early" while still a living lichnee (under 1E liching rules), completing the liching process before attaining whatever goals/levels he had planned to reach before his death.
He's obviously managed to do fairly well for himself in the subsequent centuries. He took care to preserve and perfume his dead flesh as much as possible to maintain the charade of life ... great uncertainty (and many rumours) about Szass's lich status persisted among all but his closest peers for centuries.
Szass is clearly portrayed as possessing nearly-inhuman emotional detachment, intellect, experience, and accomplishment. I would describe him as coldly arrogant, condescending, prone to diabolical mwoohahaaa and monologues to underscore his superiority. He seems to derive some enjoyment from prolonging demonstrations of his dominance and sophisticated sadistry. He clearly views mortal humans as disposable, inferior, and largely incompetent.
This doesn't seem compatible with your statement.
It has been a while since I read the Haunted Lands trilogy, but that does not sound like how I remember Szass being depicted. He seemed to genuinely befriend Malark. Well, until Malark double crossed him anyway, but that will put a damper on any friendship. I don't recall much gloating from him.
As for his appearance, I took it that he was using spells to appear as someone who is still amongst the living.
Dennis is right though. I do recall him lamenting his undead status and if I am remembering it correctly he mentioned it as part of the problem.
Indeed. I will find that scene in Unholy later when I'm less encumbered by a plethora of deadlines. |
| Tyrant |
Posted - 01 Feb 2011 : 05:32:49
quote:
Originally posted by Arik
quote:
Dennis
Note also that deep inside [Szass] hates himself for being a lich---a sheer corrupted existence he wishes to "correct" through the grand ritual.
I'm not certain I can agree with this part of your answer, D.
As I understand it, Szass was initially unhappy with his lichdom. He was killed "too early" while still a living lichnee (under 1E liching rules), completing the liching process before attaining whatever goals/levels he had planned to reach before his death.
He's obviously managed to do fairly well for himself in the subsequent centuries. He took care to preserve and perfume his dead flesh as much as possible to maintain the charade of life ... great uncertainty (and many rumours) about Szass's lich status persisted among all but his closest peers for centuries.
Szass is clearly portrayed as possessing nearly-inhuman emotional detachment, intellect, experience, and accomplishment. I would describe him as coldly arrogant, condescending, prone to diabolical mwoohahaaa and monologues to underscore his superiority. He seems to derive some enjoyment from prolonging demonstrations of his dominance and sophisticated sadistry. He clearly views mortal humans as disposable, inferior, and largely incompetent.
This doesn't seem compatible with your statement.
It has been a while since I read the Haunted Lands trilogy, but that does not sound like how I remember Szass being depicted. He seemed to genuinely befriend Malark. Well, until Malark double crossed him anyway, but that will put a damper on any friendship. I don't recall much gloating from him.
As for his appearance, I took it that he was using spells to appear as someone who is still amongst the living.
Dennis is right though. I do recall him lamenting his undead status and if I am remembering it correctly he mentioned it as part of the problem. I think it was when he grabbed a flower and by the end of the scene it had withered in his hands, but I may be misremembering. He wanted to undo his undeath as he understood it made him tainted. I think there was something about the gods being unjust in there as well. |
| Ayrik |
Posted - 01 Feb 2011 : 05:10:55
quote:
Dennis
Note also that deep inside [Szass] hates himself for being a lich---a sheer corrupted existence he wishes to "correct" through the grand ritual.
I'm not certain I can agree with this part of your answer, D.
As I understand it, Szass was initially unhappy with his lichdom. He was killed "too early" while still a living lichnee (under 1E liching rules), completing the liching process before attaining whatever goals/levels he had planned to reach before his death.
He's obviously managed to do fairly well for himself in the subsequent centuries. He took care to preserve and perfume his dead flesh as much as possible to maintain the charade of life ... great uncertainty (and many rumours) about Szass's lich status persisted among all but his closest peers for centuries.
Szass is clearly portrayed as possessing nearly-inhuman emotional detachment, intellect, experience, and accomplishment. I would describe him as coldly arrogant, condescending, prone to diabolical mwoohahaaa and monologues to underscore his superiority. He seems to derive some enjoyment from prolonging demonstrations of his dominance and sophisticated sadistry. He clearly views mortal humans as disposable, inferior, and largely incompetent.
This doesn't seem compatible with your statement. |
| Dennis |
Posted - 01 Feb 2011 : 04:30:28
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
quote:
Originally posted by dennis
Have you read The Haunted Lands?
Tam's primary goal is to raise the DR's so he could perform the great ritual that would enable him to ascend to godhood. He needs a land for them, and Thay is already not an option because the Rings he erected there can no longer be reused. Conquering Aglarond makes sense, specially that Alassra is now gone, and seems to need more time - a lot of it - to lick her wounds. With Aglarond in his grasp, Tam could easily build the DR's in it; or if he deems another land or realm is more suitable, he could still use Aglarond's resources to seize that realm.
He needs to stop listening to Kiaransalee and tear a page out of Vecna's book - ruling a dead-world is BORING.
Ah, you're assuming something that's completely false. Tam does not want to rule a dead world. He wants to renew it---annihilate everything because all of it is tainted, twisted, corrupted; and create new forms of life. Note also that deep inside he hates himself for being a lich---a sheer corrupted existence he wishes to "correct" through the grand ritual. |
| Dennis |
Posted - 12 Jan 2011 : 00:37:01
quote:
Originally posted by althen artren
maybe there are nukes in his own country he's trying to find?
If by now he's not yet found it, either he's one of the most stupid liches now plaguing the Realms, or the Simbul is simply clever. |
| Dennis |
Posted - 12 Jan 2011 : 00:34:53
quote:
Originally posted by Erdrick Stormedge
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
The only (or greatest) deterrent to Thay's ambition of conquering Aglarond is the Witch-Queen herself. Now that she's gone – and Tam and the Red Wizards know it – what or who is keeping them from taking the necessary actions? I understand some of Tam's resources are being used elsewhere to erect the Dread Rings. But isn't Aglarond the best place for the DR's, all things considered? If not, once Tam successfully annexes it to Thay, he would possess far more resources for his greater goals. That alone is worth a try to conquer Aglarond.
Well met Scribe dennis!
I though'est wise to direct thee hence:
http://forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=13802&whichpage=3
In yon scry-gate of the inter-aether, the faire Lady Most Hooded indicates that nae the Simbul 'twas a deterrent to Thay's ambition. The Lady Most Hooded seems to say that the Simbul 'twas an ally of Thaymount, though in'st a way 'ere only the Powers may understand!
Your original inquiry, forsooth, appeareth moot, dear scribe...
Until Swords Meet!
Hmmm, you must have missed Ed's reply to this query. It's in the 2010 thread.
Since Ed's answer is NDA, obviously, there is someone or something that acts as Tam's deterrent. |
| Erdrick Stormedge |
Posted - 10 Jan 2011 : 15:05:52
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
The only (or greatest) deterrent to Thay's ambition of conquering Aglarond is the Witch-Queen herself. Now that she's gone – and Tam and the Red Wizards know it – what or who is keeping them from taking the necessary actions? I understand some of Tam's resources are being used elsewhere to erect the Dread Rings. But isn't Aglarond the best place for the DR's, all things considered? If not, once Tam successfully annexes it to Thay, he would possess far more resources for his greater goals. That alone is worth a try to conquer Aglarond.
Well met Scribe dennis!
I though'est wise to direct thee hence:
http://forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=13802&whichpage=3
In yon scry-gate of the inter-aether, the faire Lady Most Hooded indicates that nae the Simbul 'twas a deterrent to Thay's ambition. The Lady Most Hooded seems to say that the Simbul 'twas an ally of Thaymount, though in'st a way 'ere only the Powers may understand!
Your original inquiry, forsooth, appeareth moot, dear scribe...
Until Swords Meet! |
| althen artren |
Posted - 10 Jan 2011 : 01:36:41
maybe there are nukes in his own country he's trying to find? |
| Dennis |
Posted - 26 Dec 2010 : 08:43:26
quote:
Originally posted by althen artren
Hidden spell nukes, in various areas where the
whole country is destroyed if Thay comes over
the hill. That seems like a Simbul method of
doing things.
Tam can send thousands of sacrificial undead to activate the nukes. And when the coast is clear ----when all the nukes have already exploded--- he could march his army.
Though, how he'll be able to locate the exact locations of the nukes is another story. |
| Markustay |
Posted - 17 Dec 2010 : 23:36:25
Ed's mom created Ao.
His dad helped.
And on a more serious note, it has sometimes been explained Ao's 'boss' is supposed to be 'The Reader' (us), so it would make sense that the 'author' of the Realms themselves would have to answer to it's fans (applying a little pretzel-logic here).
Ergo, the only people Ed/Ao should be accountable to are the people who buy FR products. At the end of the day, the customer is the real boss.
And the only reason why I went that route (despite trying to avoid negativity about D&D right now), is because of Rich's particular choice of words - he said they were going to 'ignore Ao', which indicates that Ao is a real individual that they feel should be ignored. You CANNOT ignore something which does not exist - you can only pretend it does exist.
I had more here, but it was too Freudian and had little positive to contribute to the Realms, so lets move on. |
| The Sage |
Posted - 17 Dec 2010 : 23:30:13
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
I suppose when he elevated Cyric after the ToT, it was just a matter of time before he came under review and got canned.
______________________________________________________________________
Ed Greenwood created the Forgotten Realms.
Ao created Realmspace.
Ergo, Ao = Ed Greenwood.
And although I never cared for the character of Ao, I liked the concept, and if the above logic is true, then Ao's removal from the setting seems almost... apt.
Just replace 'Ao' with 'Ed' in Rich's comment. 
Heh. The only problem with this, is the fact that Ed didn't create Ao. 'Twas a concept introduced by TSR.  |
| Markustay |
Posted - 17 Dec 2010 : 23:00:28
I suppose when he elevated Cyric after the ToT, it was just a matter of time before he came under review and got canned.
______________________________________________________________________
Ed Greenwood created the Forgotten Realms.
Ao created Realmspace.
Ergo, Ao = Ed Greenwood.
And although I never cared for the character of Ao, I liked the concept, and if the above logic is true, then Ao's removal from the setting seems almost... apt.
Just replace 'Ao' with 'Ed' in Rich's comment.
|
| althen artren |
Posted - 17 Dec 2010 : 21:53:18
Hidden spell nukes, in various areas where the
whole country is destroyed if Thay comes over
the hill. That seems like a Simbul method of
doing things. |
| Ayrik |
Posted - 17 Dec 2010 : 08:25:44
quote:
Wooly Rupert
So I think Ao may have been quietly retconned out of existence.
The Sage
Pretty much.
Per Rich Baker:- Ao is being ignored and effectively being written out of Realms post-Spellplague.
"Alas poor Ao, I knew him well." |
| Alystra Illianniis |
Posted - 17 Dec 2010 : 08:18:09
Oh. So you're referring to the FIRST encounter between the two, it seems. in the ASM/Sonya cross-over, Spidey mentioned the earlier encounter with Kulan (there are only two that I know of). It was more of the same, apparently. He tried to re-write reality, merging both worlds together. There were medieval versions of several of the web-slinger's villains (hobgoblin, lizard, and Venom among them) and Spidey and M-J/Sonya (yes, Sonya's soul took possession of M-J's body!) led a revolt of the people from the Marvel Earth (JJJ with a pitch-fork!! Loved it!)to try to put everything back together . I don't recall Strange or Cap even being in that, actually. I will have to find those X-Men issues, it seems. Was not aware that he had ever been crucified. (Incidentally, he also realized what was happening in the more recent arc, probably for the same reason as before- and I suspect it had something to do with the "true" origin of his powers, per JMS's run on the book....) And Strange is known for dire warnings of prices being paid. The "Happy Birthday" arc is just one example of that!! (and is also the basis for my own superhero series in the making, BTW!! There's some great stuff in that arc.) |
| Markustay |
Posted - 17 Dec 2010 : 08:02:16
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
I'm going to disagree with this. I still feel there's a great deal of "creative love" for the Realms from folk like Brian James and Erik Scott de Bie. It echoes the kind of love we saw in 2e. It's just not as pronounced, because a great many long-time fans, are almost always too eager to dismiss the entirety of Realms work crafted for the post-Spellplague period.
I had a feeling that would be misinterpreted (which is why I considered editing it).
I don't mean that no-one over at WotC (including freelancers) are being 'Creative', what I mean is that is not the driving force behind many of the story-arcs at this point. The setting is being driven in a number of directions. I have a feeling the direction it was going wasn't working out the way they planned, and now they've altered their course.
According to everything I read upon the release of 4e, Thay was being changed into a Realms-version of the Plateuau of Leng, which the designers felt was more useful to the setting then just another nation run by a cabal of evil wizards. This is what they wanted, and I suppose thought what fans wanted, so it was done, which is why we had Byers write his series. It was a cross-over series that bridged 3e (where it started) and 4e (where it ended). The novels were NOT written because someone thought it was a cool storyline - they were written to get the setting to a certain point. That's what I mean by 'not creatively driven' - its just more of those pesky RSE's that for whatever reason the guys in-charge seem to think are great ideas.
Now, taking all of that into account - what they wanted (as they had stated before 4e was even released) out of Thay and Szass Tam for 4e, then why will they now have him leaving and mucking-about in other parts of the realms? Isn't the conclusion of that novel series precisely where they meant to place him within the new setting? Why move him all of a sudden and change directions? Plateau of Leng not looking so hot now, eh?
Why bother making such a drastic change - one they specifically stated they wanted - just to have the main BBG move elsewhere? Its a shift in their design-plan, is what it is.
And if they need someone like Szass Tam for whatever they have in-mind, then you KNOW its going to be BIG, as in setting-changing BIG. I have no idea what those changes will be - I can only guess, but I am sure there will be changes coming - BIG ONES. You don't sacrifice your Queen unless you are ready to check-mate.
Just my two cents, and all IMHO, of course.
Oh, and no offense to anyone - an idea can be business-driven, and still be handled very creatively. I'm sure most of the novels are still the 'small' type, that don't effect the Realms in any major way, and could be told in any era. I prefer that type, and I think those are the ones that really let us see the Realms shine. Creativity doesn't happen at a conference table - it happens behind a pen. Those writers that aren't handed a script to follow are the lucky ones.
quote:
Originally posted by Alystra Illianniis
Just a side-note here. I've got that entire arc of ASM/Red Sonya, and Spidey was never crucified. He was tied to a post after being beaten half to death, but was never actually dead. And this happened only after Kulan had bonded with Venom, BTW....
You all are readin' the wrong comics.
Try the X-Men 188-191 storyline. Whatever you pay for them, you will thank me for it (medieval versions of Captain America, Thor, and the Scarlet Witch!)
I have never read any other story-lines with Kulan Gath (including the original Conan ones), but he is one helluva arch-villain. The guy re-wrote the whole damn world! And for some strange reason (because of his earlier encounter with him) the 'magic' did not work on Spidey - he knew what the world was supposed to be like, and Kulan Gath crucified him - literally KILLED HIM (I forget who was watching at the time). I was like, "Oh NO he didn't!"
You really MUST get those, Allystra.
The outcome was Dr. Strange altering the timeline, causing Nimrod (a sentinel from the future) to appear at the precise moment and stop Kulan Gath from ever emerging in the first place. This, in-turn, caused all sorts of problems for the X-Men down the line, which Was the 'price' Dr. Strange said would have to be paid for meddling with time.
Go to the bottom of this link for details.
Kulan bonded with Venom?  |
| Alystra Illianniis |
Posted - 17 Dec 2010 : 07:51:16
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
quote:
Originally posted by Alystra Illianniis
A better analogy would have been Strange/Mephisto "fixing" things after the Civil War so that the world's memory of Spidey's ID would be wiped, in order to save his aunt, and un-marrying him in the process. (Which was, of course, the entire point- there's your "re-set, MT!!)  
You really need to read One Moment In Time.
I did, unfortunately. HATED it. The arc was good- until about half-way through the third issue. Then it fell apart with her cheap and weak admission that she "wasn't strong enough" for the relationship.   Huh?! After twenty-some-odd years, THAT'S the best they can come up with for a reason for her to leave?! It was the bullet in the Spidey-verse that killed the characters for me.
Yes, dennis- it WAS a Whitney Houston song, and an entirely inappropriate title for that story arc, IMO. Should have been called "Cheesy Cop-out For Marvel". |
| Dennis |
Posted - 17 Dec 2010 : 07:30:13
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
quote:
Trust me - the Realms are not being driven by any sort of 'creative juices', they are being driven by RW need at this point. Its no coincidence at all that Tam is casting a world-altering ritual at this time.
I'm going to disagree with this. I still feel there's a great deal of "creative love" for the Realms from folk like Brian James and Erik Scott de Bie. It echoes the kind of love we saw in 2e. It's just not as pronounced, because a great many long-time fans, are almost always too eager to dismiss the entirety of Realms work crafted for the post-Spellplague period.
As am I. Most often I follow one of pragmatism's tenets: Don't hate the whole if there are parts of it that are still good. |
| Dennis |
Posted - 17 Dec 2010 : 07:23:10
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
quote:
Originally posted by Alystra Illianniis
A better analogy would have been Strange/Mephisto "fixing" things after the Civil War so that the world's memory of Spidey's ID would be wiped, in order to save his aunt, and un-marrying him in the process. (Which was, of course, the entire point- there's your "re-set, MT!!)
You really need to read One Moment In Time.
Isn't that Whitney's song? |
| The Sage |
Posted - 17 Dec 2010 : 07:18:41
quote:
Originally posted by Alystra Illianniis
A better analogy would have been Strange/Mephisto "fixing" things after the Civil War so that the world's memory of Spidey's ID would be wiped, in order to save his aunt, and un-marrying him in the process. (Which was, of course, the entire point- there's your "re-set, MT!!)
You really need to read One Moment In Time. |
| The Sage |
Posted - 17 Dec 2010 : 07:18:03
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
So I think Ao may have been quietly retconned out of existence.
Pretty much.
Per Rich Baker:- Ao is being ignored and effectively being written out of Realms post-Spellplague.
...
Ao was a clumsy personification of certain divine and cosmic rules and forces anyway. So I'm happy to lose the character, but ignoring the checks on divine action he represents -- and which are evident throughout the pre-novel timeline -- is one of the biggest 4e issues which still needs resolution. I'm hopeful that we'll see something which will address this in the future. |
| The Sage |
Posted - 17 Dec 2010 : 07:14:35
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Now where did I get a cockamamie theory like that? Thats how Dr. Strange fixed things when Kulan Gath re-wrote the world (including bringing a crucufied spiderman back to life, amongst other things).
Heh. On this note, I've a minor demon lord named Zarathos in my Realms. 
quote:
Trust me - the Realms are not being driven by any sort of 'creative juices', they are being driven by RW need at this point. Its no coincidence at all that Tam is casting a world-altering ritual at this time.
I'm going to disagree with this. I still feel there's a great deal of "creative love" for the Realms from folk like Brian James and Erik Scott de Bie. It echoes the kind of love we saw in 2e. It's just not as pronounced, because a great many long-time fans, are almost always too eager to dismiss the entirety of Realms work crafted for the post-Spellplague period.
|
| Dennis |
Posted - 17 Dec 2010 : 07:10:11
quote:
Originally posted by Menelvagor
Yeah, dennis is right. Shar was just hurting herself, because by preventing the ascension of a new Mystra, she stopped a young, unexprienced individual from being a goddess, and will now have to contend with the old Mystra, who knows all her tricks and can kick her ass.
She likes to inflict pain to her crazed followers. It's about time she feels it herself. I heard she's a masochist, so she must be enjoying it. |
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