| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Archimedes of Syracuse |
Posted - 14 Jun 2010 : 23:17:48
Im currently reading Unclean (which i must add is a simply amazing book) and while reading i find myself liking sazz tam. He has to be one of the most evil vile characters iv read in th FR but i just cant help but like him and im not sure why. I was wondering if anyone feels the same about sazz and why. Also i want to know some other very evil but very likable villains that are out there. |
| 30 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| Alystra Illianniis |
Posted - 06 Jul 2010 : 21:33:11
Don't know who that is, but if you like her books why do you still have a thing against elves? She portrays them in a generally very good light- even when they ARE being a tad snooty. I think it's more the fault of the writer if they can't show them in a decent light as opposed to being just a bunch of elitist prigs. There's so much more to any race than what others see, or even how they look at another race. It smacks too much of real-world race issues, and I'd prefer to see less of that in the books, unless it's well-justified. I usually play, run, and write my elves as if they had interests, issues, and ideals beyond just "We were here first and we live longer, so we must be better" kind of thing. Unless they're drow- they just think they're better than EVERYONE, just because they're drow. but that's a whole seperate issue, at least in my realm.
(Note- I use a homebrew world where the drow origin is slightly different. not a seperate sub-race, but cursed members of the three main elven races- high, grey, and wood. And they are more snooty than any surface elf could be, in fact, the surface elves are embarressed by their very exitance, because it shos that they have as much potential for evil as any other race. The one thing I DO stick to in that world is the basic tenet that elves are supposed to be "good", but some apperantly were VERY bad, and got spanked harshly by the Seldarine for it.) |
| Dennis |
Posted - 06 Jul 2010 : 21:02:57
Human wizards and liches. And the reasons are but an endless list, but the primal one is that most of my fave characters, be it FR or non-FR, belong to such race.
Back to Elaine, I'm glad we have something we agreed on.
She's in my top 5 list of greatest FR novelists. I always feel for her characters. And her style is good. Sometimes she reminds me of Trudi Canavan.
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| Alystra Illianniis |
Posted - 06 Jul 2010 : 20:44:07
Okay, so what races DO you like? El and a few others aside, I get bored with humans, personally. They all end up looking like religious fanatics, ruthless mercenaries, or insane wizards after a while. I just happen to like what elves stand for- reverence for nature, joy in and respect for the Art and culture, and above all, freedom from the strict rule of law and order over personal rights and life. What's not to like there? (I tend to think of them as being the ultimate race of envirnmentalists and freedom-fighters....) |
| Dennis |
Posted - 06 Jul 2010 : 20:42:29
As of Elaine, well, I like her books, too. But I avoid the ones that put the pests (elves, not much the drow) in the limelight.
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| Dennis |
Posted - 06 Jul 2010 : 20:38:39
Why in the world would something so trivial worry me?!
The appearances of lots of these annoying tiny creatures (pests, I call them often) in A LOT OF FR BOOKS I read are enough to make me puke for a century (that is, if I live that long.) |
| The Red Walker |
Posted - 06 Jul 2010 : 20:34:08
Im thinking its time for a "Nature of Elves" scroll or some such place to sort this out |
| Alystra Illianniis |
Posted - 06 Jul 2010 : 20:27:12
Uh, and you do remember that those haughty ones were in the minority in that book? The coronal himself was perfectly fine with El, as were most of the others, it was mainly the Staryms and their bunch that had any objections, and they all ended up ousted, one way or another. You really should read Evermeet, it might shed a bit more light on the race for you. Cunningham's many books on them are one of the main reasons I DO like elves, in fact. It seems you're only getting half the picture on what is really a fascinating FR race. I never used to like dwarves much, but that changed after reading the Drizzt novels, with Bruenor and all his folk, and now adding Athrogate and the bouldershoulders to the mix. So getting a better picture on them might just change your mind- or is that what worries you? |
| Dennis |
Posted - 06 Jul 2010 : 20:02:24
I've read El in MD. Ha, there are still a bunch of haughty, obnoxious little creatures there, save a very, very few ones like the Srinshee. As of Evermeet, well, never will I read a book that's primarily about elves. I only picked El in MD because El, one of my fave Realms char, is there, and it's basically his story. So had the title of the latter been El in Evermeet, definitely I'd bother to grab it.
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| Alystra Illianniis |
Posted - 06 Jul 2010 : 19:47:59
I never said they weren't occassionally "stuck-up", just that I think it's more of how OTHERS see them then of how they really are. Don't know anything about the Shadowvar, but to each his own, I suppose. I just think maybe you read too much into their supposed attitudes toward other races, when given half a chance, most elves learn to see the potential in members of other races- Read Evermeet again, or better yet, Elmisnter in Myth Drannor, and you'll see what I mean. Most of the elves in those books got along just fine with humans when dealing with them personally. It seems to me that elves have more of a problem with EACH OTHER than they do with any other race!! (Orcs not-withstanding, of course...) |
| Dennis |
Posted - 06 Jul 2010 : 19:08:24
Of course you'll never see them as a bunch of haughty, small creatures because you LIKE them, in the same way I DON'T see the Shadovar's successes as too impossible to believe (as what others claim they are) for I LIKE them.
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| Alystra Illianniis |
Posted - 06 Jul 2010 : 18:07:54
I really don't see them as being full of themselves, so much as frustrated with all those who can't see/understand thier perspective and ideals. True, the Seldarine does tend to play favorites (as does ANY parent, in spite of what some might say to the contrary) and yes, they tend to come off as a bit "stuck-up" to those of other races, but keep in mind, this is one of the OLDEST races in existance. They tend to see everyone else as just too young and inexperienced to really take them seriously. And in the case of humans, they're usually right. Which explains why they tend to get so mad when short-sighted humans destroy their forests! |
| Dennis |
Posted - 02 Jul 2010 : 21:24:21
quote:
Originally posted by Alystra Illianniis
You have to take into account that they see things very differently from a human. An elf's viewpoint is based on the fact that to them, humans are too quick to jump into things, too meddlesome, and FAR too impatient. Also the fact that they live so much longer makes them feel sorry for a lot of the other races. It's not that they are so very haughty, though admittedly some are, but they are just a little condescending to those with shorter lifespans. Another thing is their connection to nature and the Weave. Humans and others can't even BEGIN to understand that connection, though a few might come close (druids, rangers, and half-elves, mostly.) It's like trying to describe color to a man blind from birth- you can tell him what the sky looks like, but he'll never really understand it.... Sorry, I just had to defend my favorite race!
Whatever their reason to be so full of themselves, it's still exceedingly annoying to see such trait exposed blatantly in almost every FR novel I read.
I respect people who like elves, for in the long run it will boil down to one thing: preference. But that doesn't make me dislike elves less.
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| Alystra Illianniis |
Posted - 02 Jul 2010 : 21:08:22
You have to take into account that they see things very differently from a human. An elf's viewpoint is based on the fact that to them, humans are too quick to jump into things, too meddlesome, and FAR too impatient. Also the fact that they live so much longer makes them feel sorry for a lot of the other races. It's not that they are so very haughty, though admittedly some are, but they are just a little condescending to those with shorter lifespans. Another thing is their connection to nature and the Weave. Humans and others can't even BEGIN to understand that connection, though a few might come close (druids, rangers, and half-elves, mostly.) It's like trying to describe color to a man blind from birth- you can tell him what the sky looks like, but he'll never really understand it.... Sorry, I just had to defend my favorite race! |
| Dennis |
Posted - 02 Jul 2010 : 20:43:06
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Jander Sunstar, the elf-turned-vampire of Vampire of the Mists, is anything but haughty.
I think it's important to note as well, that we're often only really exposed to a small percentage of the elven communities in the Realms, through the most prominent NPCs portrayed in the fiction.
They shouldn't be taken as the "be all end all" of the complete and total elven mindset. Like almost every other race, opinions and attitudes toward others, varies.
"Small percentage," maybe. But the number of times their haughtiness is shown in the novels is appalling. Say, the majority are possibly "likeable" (and there's big question mark here), what use do they have when we VERY RARELY and ALMOST NEVER see their (questionanble) endearing/redeeming qualities?
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| Markustay |
Posted - 21 Jun 2010 : 05:08:48
The Histories, in truth, do not 'read well' for the Elven people - FR's history makes me hate them. To this day I will say the Gold Elves did FAR WORSE then what the Dark Elves ever did, so the Elven deities displayed unbelievable favoritism, and that is why I am an advocate for the Dark Elves and VERY anti-Eladrin (Gold/Silver/Star).
On the other hand, most of the stories I have read - most especially Elaine's - have made me really like FR's Elves.
So what we read in lore, and what we read in novel, are two very different animals. |
| The Sage |
Posted - 21 Jun 2010 : 05:07:18
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Jander Sunstar, the elf-turned-vampire of Vampire of the Mists, is anything but haughty.
I think it's important to note as well, that we're often only really exposed to a small percentage of the elven communities in the Realms, through the most prominent NPCs portrayed in the fiction.
They shouldn't be taken as the "be all end all" of the complete and total elven mindset. Like almost every other race, opinions and attitudes toward others, varies.
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| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 21 Jun 2010 : 04:33:43
Jander Sunstar, the elf-turned-vampire of Vampire of the Mists, is anything but haughty. |
| Dennis |
Posted - 21 Jun 2010 : 02:52:50
Yes, I also think the Qualinesti are tending to be human-like in attitude, but I am referring to the general population of elves. And actually I care less about the elves from DL, Eb and MtG as I read far more books set in FR than in those 3. And nearly all elves in FR are ridiculously haughty and xenophobic.
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| The Sage |
Posted - 21 Jun 2010 : 02:37:15
quote:
Originally posted by dennis
I don't like elves. And I was surprised how elves are treated in Wizards books (be it FR, DL, Eb..).
I wouldn't place all the TSR/WotC-derived elven races/sub-races into that same category. The Qualinesti elves of DRAGONLANCE, for example, often aren't as "haughty" as the Silvanesti elves. In general, Qualinesti elves tend toward a mindset that is somewhat similar to that of humankind. |
| Dennis |
Posted - 21 Jun 2010 : 02:22:51
I don't like elves. And I was surprised how elves are treated in Wizards books (be it FR, DL, Eb..). The "creatures" think themselves far superior than humans, obnoxiously haughty...well, the list would go on and on... And I just ignore the fact that some of my fave FR characters either have elven blood (though, thank God, not pretty obvious in their looks), or are taught by elves in the use and intricacies of magic. I'd rather think of and see elves the likes of Dobby (Is the spelling right? It's been quite awhile since I last picked a Harry book).
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| Markustay |
Posted - 20 Jun 2010 : 17:37:57
Yeah, just ignore the fact the main character is an Elf - I try to avoid 'Elfy' stories myself.
That Myth Drannor series would be good for me... to induce vomiting. 
(Have I mentioned I don't like Elves?) |
| The Sage |
Posted - 20 Jun 2010 : 14:39:02
quote:
Originally posted by dennis
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Not sure if she's done a full-length novel for the Realms - Sage might know.
No full-length novels, at least not for the Realms. RAVENLOFT, yes. Her Realms fiction is limited to three short stories each in the Realms of Valor, Realms of Infamy, and Realms of Magic -- all of which deal with the elven vampire Jander.
Elves and vampires? -----more reason I won't read those stories. But thanks, anyway, Sage. At least now I am SURE I will never have the slightest inclination to read them.
I'd make the effort at least once, if only because worthwhile vampire lore based in the Realms isn't exactly commonplace. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 20 Jun 2010 : 14:18:17
quote:
Originally posted by dennis
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Not sure if she's done a full-length novel for the Realms - Sage might know.
No full-length novels, at least not for the Realms. RAVENLOFT, yes. Her Realms fiction is limited to three short stories each in the Realms of Valor, Realms of Infamy, and Realms of Magic -- all of which deal with the elven vampire Jander.
Elves and vampires? -----more reason I won't read those stories. But thanks, anyway, Sage. At least now I am SURE I will never have the slightest inclination to read them.
Actually, I found her book Vampire of the Mists to be very enjoyable. It's one of the only Ravenloft books I bothered to replace. |
| Dennis |
Posted - 20 Jun 2010 : 05:15:11
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
...and I can't think of Rivalen as villain (I haven't read the newer trilogy).
I just noticed this. Well, he's more like a villain than his father in Twilight War, if exposure is the sole basis. And he's the only villain in the realms I know (so far) who actually CRIED...
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| Dennis |
Posted - 20 Jun 2010 : 05:05:52
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Not sure if she's done a full-length novel for the Realms - Sage might know.
No full-length novels, at least not for the Realms. RAVENLOFT, yes. Her Realms fiction is limited to three short stories each in the Realms of Valor, Realms of Infamy, and Realms of Magic -- all of which deal with the elven vampire Jander.
Elves and vampires? -----more reason I won't read those stories. But thanks, anyway, Sage. At least now I am SURE I will never have the slightest inclination to read them.
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| Dennis |
Posted - 20 Jun 2010 : 05:02:59
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Not sure if she's done a full-length novel for the Realms - Sage might know.
Anyhow, if your main problem with the book was with Arthus' rather abrupt shift in character, then that really wasn't her fault. That's how it happened in Warcraft III, and I was like "WTF?!"
It was that bad, even in the game - I said I stopped playing after that. I think having to kill all those villagers that were corrupted by the Scourge drove him nuts, but still.....
Her style, failure to connect the dots (so to speak), and meshing the different wars that took place during Arthas' time in such a chaotic, unfocused way contributed to my big disappointment. Even the destruction of Dalaran, the city of mages, was portrayed in a horrendous manner. Imagine Cyric swatting a dragon. That's more like it.
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| The Sage |
Posted - 20 Jun 2010 : 03:04:46
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Not sure if she's done a full-length novel for the Realms - Sage might know.
No full-length novels, at least not for the Realms. RAVENLOFT, yes. Her Realms fiction is limited to three short stories each in the Realms of Valor, Realms of Infamy, and Realms of Magic -- all of which deal with the elven vampire Jander. |
| Markustay |
Posted - 20 Jun 2010 : 02:45:17
Not sure if she's done a full-length novel for the Realms - Sage might know.
Anyhow, if your main problem with the book was with Arthus' rather abrupt shift in character, then that really wasn't her fault. That's how it happened in Warcraft III, and I was like "WTF?!"
It was that bad, even in the game - I said I stopped playing after that. I think having to kill all those villagers that were corrupted by the Scourge drove him nuts, but still..... |
| Dennis |
Posted - 20 Jun 2010 : 01:41:58
That book was supposed to be like a grand history of WoW, since different wars happened before and during Arthas' ascension to lich king. But there should have a focus. It turned out to be too choppy, and the shift of Arthas' character from a love-struck puppy (I mean, paladin), to a cold-blooded lich was NOT SMOOTHLY HANDLED by Golden.
As to her Realms stories, as far as I know, she hasn't penned yet a novel, right? Just short stories in the Realms Anthologies?? I rarely read short stories, and most of them are Ed's, Richard's, and Elaine's.
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| Markustay |
Posted - 19 Jun 2010 : 20:29:08
quote:
Originally posted by dennis
It's one of the worst books I have ever read in my entire existence on earth...I thought the last few chapters will salvage the plot, but it looks like it was doomed from beginning to end. And I promise myself never to read Golden's books again...
Have you read the few Realms stories she's done? They are all quite good. Her stories aren't as action-packed as others - they go for the gut, and invoke emotional responses (not too shabby for a 'game author').
And I didn't read the one about Arthas, I read 2 others, and I thought Lord of the Clans was excellent - certainly not the best piece of prose I ever read, but the story fit the world and feel perfectly - I think she really captured the Warcraft Orcs. Unlike MANY authors who write for shared worlds (who shall remain nameless), she does her research, and her stories don't feel like they were just dropped into any old setting.
Oh... and BTW... I don't think the story was her fault. I actually STOPPED playing Warcraft III at the point where Arthus turned on the Alliance - ruined the entire game for me. Never picked it back up after that. Also refuse to play WoW since Rise of the Lich King was released - last thing I want is more Arthus shlock. |
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