| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| jordanz |
Posted - 18 May 2010 : 03:11:16
http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Manshoon
Ok so there is just one Manshoon left - the Vampire clone or would it be two including the original Manshoon? Also why haven't we seen more of this guy? |
| 30 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| althen artren |
Posted - 16 Feb 2013 : 19:41:27
It would be far easier to role-play a convincing Manshoon
if some of his far reaching plans and wheels-in-wheels were ever
printed. |
| Ayrik |
Posted - 02 Feb 2013 : 00:22:09
quote:
swifty
this just backs up my view of how ridicoulous the manshoon story is
Ridiculous? Naw, it's standard D&D fare.
DM: "99 ... you encounter a Manshoon."
Player: "Another one? But we already killed three Manshoons today."
...
DM: "00 ... roll on Special Encounter Table XCVII ... oooh, a pack of 2d4 Manshoons, led by a giant two-headed Manshoon. Roll initiatives!"
I'll be concerned when we see Elminster's Ecologies articles about the ecological niche of a Manshoon clone. If Manshoons become just another monster then it's only a matter of time before we see them turned into a PC race option.
Consider that a newly awakened Manshoon might have few (if any) items, no spellbook, none of his trademark magical gizmos. He might wish to arm himself before daring to approach any of his own hidden supply caches, since after all, he'd know at the very least that he's awake because something killed a Manshoon. A party of adventurers dripping in gold and magics would be a fine way to deliver some basic gear. |
| swifty |
Posted - 01 Feb 2013 : 23:50:04
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
I think its like this* - there is a 'virus' in the spell-code.
Just like computer apps, they need to run with a specific set of parameters laid-down, and somehow the vamp-shoon 'broke the program'. Its stuck in a loop (that it can't resolve). What that means is any clones created (while there is still more then one) will cause the clone to instantly wakeup and try to kill the guy who just created it.
So it needs a 'cold reboot'. When the very last Manshoon clone dies (which may be just limited to the Prime Plane or even just Realmspace) the program has come to a close, and 'normal cloning' may once-again commence.
Obviously the vamp clone doesn't count (because he's the one that broke it in the first place), so it is still possible to leave a few lying around (so long as the original spell was unable to detect them at the time of 'the last Manshoon's death). Another assumption I would make is that any form of stasis will fulfill the requirements, since we know more then one clone has always been in stasis (since Manshoon created the spell). So if someone (including one of the clones) could get all the other clones into stasis somehow, it resets (and then those clones can be reactivated at a later date).
So long as the spell is stuck in a 'wakeup clone' loop, Manshoon can't use the spell (without immediately fighting another copy). The magic has to come to an end completely before it can be turned back on (like a comp. virus that keeps opening browser windows).
*As in - "my own solution" as to why he isn't making any more copies.
this just backs up my view of how ridicoulous the manshoon story is |
| The Masked Mage |
Posted - 01 Feb 2013 : 10:36:07
First you have to think of WHY Manshoon would choose the dragon. He'd never send the PCs just to get killed. He'd consider the outside chance that they'd manage victory, so he'd choose a dragon that's preventing another one of his schemes. That way, no matter the outcome, he wins: either eliminate a potential future enemy or solve another problem.
Or you can go a step further and have Manshoon take over one of the PCs as he does in Els books. Part-time PC, part time puppet. |
| crazedventurers |
Posted - 01 Feb 2013 : 09:13:40
quote:
Originally posted by JohnLynch
But you know if he was on encounter tables it'd go something like this:
DM rolls a 99 on the encounter table.
DM thinks "Alright! I get to use Manshoon!
That sounds about right to me, get the PC's to do all of Manshoon's dirty work
Have you been reading my campaign notes? 
Cheers
Damian |
| JohnLynch |
Posted - 01 Feb 2013 : 08:40:06
quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
It's a perfect in-world premise for recycling a stock NPC. I hope Manshoon doesn't get numerous enough to have his own entry on encounter tables.
But you know if he was on encounter tables it'd go something like this:
DM rolls a 99 on the encounter table.
DM thinks "Alright! I get to use Manshoon! My PCs are toast!"
DM flips to the Manshoon entry and checks Manshoon's tactics.
It reads "Manshoon will attempt to hire the PCs and send them against one of his enemies. If he considers the PCs a threat he will send them on an adventure where they face impossible odds."
DM thinks "Alright... A bit unusual. But I'll roll with that. There's that big dragon the PCs can go fight. That's a CR+5, that should kill them."
[One adventure later the PCs return to Manshoon laden with treasure]
DM says in his Manshoon voice to the PCs "Excellent. Thankyou for this service my good friends. That Sceptre has been in my family for generations and now you have returned it to me."
DM thinks "Hmmm.. They just got a whole lot of XP and treasure. They're even more of a threat now. I'd better get Manshoon to throw them against an even tougher opponent. But it might look a bit suspicious if Manshoon were to just do it outright. I'll get him to Charm a local lord and have that Lord give them the plothook."
[Many adventures later]
Player 1 says "That was awesome. We're level 20 now!"
Player 2 says "I know right. And it's all thanks to that strange traveler we met on the road. If he hadn't of told us about that dragon we would never have gone to that fancy ball party and met that lord, and then we wouldn't have stayed in that inn in Suzail where a bar brawl just HAPPENED to kill that adventurer who had that book on the the Dreaded Isle of Certain Demise"
Player 3 says "And then we just happened to come across that fishing boat which had that Captain who honestly looked a bit familiar. But the Captain happened to have a treasure map to Mount Doom in the Falling Rocks Mountain Range."
Player 1 says "Oh yeah! And then we met that strange hermit on the way back who told us about this shortcut which actually took us through a portal to Ravenloft where we got even more treasure from all the adventurers those gems from past adventurers that had died in Ravenloft."
Player 4 "I know right. And all because of that random traveler we met on the road. What was his name anyway?"
DM says "AAAAAAAAAARGHHH!"
Manshoon thinks "Excellent. Everything's going according to plan." |
| Ayrik |
Posted - 01 Feb 2013 : 02:32:58
It's a perfect in-world premise for recycling a stock NPC. I hope Manshoon doesn't get numerous enough to have his own entry on encounter tables. |
| Arcanus |
Posted - 01 Feb 2013 : 02:04:34
Manshoon will never be completely vanquished, I kinda get the feeling that Ed is too fond of him to let that happen. |
| The Sage |
Posted - 01 Feb 2013 : 01:31:08
quote:
Originally posted by The Masked Mage
I've just been looking through various modern products (3rd/4th ed) and they all present the deaths of Manshoons, the Zhentil Keep Manshoon killed by the Shadovar for example, as permanent.
And there are probably other undocumented deaths of Manshoon clones that we know nothing about... since Ed has, on various occasions, intimated that there are a great many more clones running around in the Realms than those referenced in the Realmslore. |
| Ayrik |
Posted - 31 Jan 2013 : 23:36:44
TMM - I meant non-permanent in the sense that although Manshoons can be killed, and each may die a permanent death, there is always another Manshoon somewhere else, and always the possibility that even more Manshoons may rise anywhere at any time.
Manshoon as a character cannot be "permanently" killed because his individual selves are a self-replicating distributed presence, something like virus spores or cancerous colonies. Unless you systematically kill every single Manshoon and remain ever vigilant against signs of malignant Manshoon regression, there is always the risk of more Manshoon. |
| Markustay |
Posted - 31 Jan 2013 : 22:04:37
I think its like this* - there is a 'virus' in the spell-code.
Just like computer apps, they need to run with a specific set of parameters laid-down, and somehow the vamp-shoon 'broke the program'. Its stuck in a loop (that it can't resolve). What that means is any clones created (while there is still more then one) will cause the clone to instantly wakeup and try to kill the guy who just created it.
So it needs a 'cold reboot'. When the very last Manshoon clone dies (which may be just limited to the Prime Plane or even just Realmspace) the program has come to a close, and 'normal cloning' may once-again commence.
Obviously the vamp clone doesn't count (because he's the one that broke it in the first place), so it is still possible to leave a few lying around (so long as the original spell was unable to detect them at the time of 'the last Manshoon's death). Another assumption I would make is that any form of stasis will fulfill the requirements, since we know more then one clone has always been in stasis (since Manshoon created the spell). So if someone (including one of the clones) could get all the other clones into stasis somehow, it resets (and then those clones can be reactivated at a later date).
So long as the spell is stuck in a 'wakeup clone' loop, Manshoon can't use the spell (without immediately fighting another copy). The magic has to come to an end completely before it can be turned back on (like a comp. virus that keeps opening browser windows).
*As in - "my own solution" as to why he isn't making any more copies. |
| The Masked Mage |
Posted - 31 Jan 2013 : 21:45:51
I've just been looking through various modern products (3rd/4th ed) and they all present the deaths of Manshoons, the Zhentil Keep Manshoon killed by the Shadovar for example, as permanent.
|
| Tyrant |
Posted - 31 Jan 2013 : 20:36:07
quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
The stasis clone spell description specifies living creatures and excludes undead/unliving creatures.
I thought that subsequent lore already established some (if not most) cloneshoons were using this spell again?
Given a century to work on it and given the apparent revelation about Manshoon in the final few pages of Elminster Enraged, I wouldn't completely rule out Vampshoon making clones of some kind. |
| Ayrik |
Posted - 31 Jan 2013 : 19:20:49
The stasis clone spell description specifies living creatures and excludes undead/unliving creatures.
I thought that subsequent lore already established some (if not most) cloneshoons were using this spell again? |
| The Masked Mage |
Posted - 31 Jan 2013 : 18:47:49
Here's a question: why is it that everyone seems to assume that post Manshoon Wars, the Manshoons stopped using the Stasis Clone spell? Once it got down to just a few of them, I'd assume they'd each be inclined to return to the practice of cloning. (I'm not sure this would be possible for vampshoon - idk if you can clone undead). |
| Alenis |
Posted - 31 Jan 2013 : 10:24:09
quote:
Originally posted by The Masked Mage
quote:
Originally posted by swifty
I know its all fantasy and should'nt be taken too seriously but the whole manshoon clones and the current storyline round him just comes across to me as rather silly.I would have preferred him to be just a straight down the line bad ass wizard and go out in spectacular fashion after a war with fzoul.
Fzoul will be dead and forgotten long before Manshoon. Fzoul plays the short game - Manshoon has the patience to understand their long term goals cannot be seized and held indefinitely. Fzoul's power is a token from his god, who already knows his loyalties are worthless. He is a tool, nothing more.
Well, I agree that Fzoul was somewhat lacking in comparison to Manshoon in regards to his overall scary leadership, behind the scenes manipulation, and so on. But stating that Fzoul will be forgotten long before Manshoon; I mean, mate, Fzouls a demigod now. Admittedly, the demigod of service to evil, so, yeah, I guess he is a tool. But a godly one. |
| Ayrik |
Posted - 31 Jan 2013 : 00:16:47
It seems everybody likes Manshoon. Or at least likes something about Manshoon. Except Dennis, of course. |
| Dalor Darden |
Posted - 30 Jan 2013 : 23:59:38
Manshoon has always been a favorite of mine...my first long term Forgotten Realms campaign had him manipulating more things behind the scenes than I could keep track of without a thick notebook!
In fact, an alternate identity of Manshoon was actually the magical instructor for the party wizard! They just never realized it until REAL years later...and in the end, Manshoon got exactly what he wanted from the party of "good guys" by getting them to kill an enemy Manshoon did not want to go against personally in a frontal attack, ended up with the party wizard/thief actually joining the Black Network "to better keep an eye on them" for the group, helping Manshoon to find NUMEROUS magical items he was able to acquire from the party by either buying them or getting them another way, and much more.
In short, Manshoon is the perfect Moriarty for me! |
| The Sage |
Posted - 30 Jan 2013 : 02:10:37
quote:
Originally posted by Arcanus
I actually like Manshoon.
I've largely been a fan of Manshoon since the early 2e period. I just loved all the little Zhentarim/Black Network tidbits that were peppered in the 2e boxed set. I could easily imagine Manshoon sitting back with steepled fingers and smiling at a map of his "dominion." |
| Arcanus |
Posted - 29 Jan 2013 : 15:26:52
I actually like Manshoon. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 29 Jan 2013 : 14:50:35
quote:
Originally posted by crazedventurers
quote:
Originally posted by swifty
I know its all fantasy and should'nt be taken too seriously but the whole manshoon clones and the current storyline round him just comes across to me as rather silly.
As a DM I see endless possibilities with Manshoon and his clones, whether active or asleep. The Manshoon Wars is perhaps the greatest plot hook/game inspiration to come out of the 2E Realms
I concur. I think the Manshoon Wars were one of the best ideas from 2E, and it still bugs me that 3E dropped the ball by not running with that one.
I never paid attention to Manshoon until there were 40 of him!  |
| crazedventurers |
Posted - 29 Jan 2013 : 14:42:26
quote:
Originally posted by swifty
I know its all fantasy and should'nt be taken too seriously but the whole manshoon clones and the current storyline round him just comes across to me as rather silly.
As a DM I see endless possibilities with Manshoon and his clones, whether active or asleep. The Manshoon Wars is perhaps the greatest plot hook/game inspiration to come out of the 2E Realms
I also love the concept that Ed created of how to keep one the home Realms bad guys alive despite the old TSR Code of Ethics that didn't allow evil to 'win' or even survive. As a player of games and tinkerer of rules Stasis Clone is an awesomely clever and yet very simple spell.
More Manshoon I say, more more more!! 
Cheers
Damian |
| Markustay |
Posted - 29 Jan 2013 : 12:57:23
I'm gonna have to agree with Swifty on this one. I loved Manshoon when I first read about him. Post-clonewar I wouldn't even consider using him.
On the other hand, I originally didn't like Fzoul, but since Blackstaff I found there is more to his personality then simply being an 'ebil mustache-twirler' (and sadly, it was probably just art of him that made me feel that way).
Now he's cool, despite the Turkish strong-man 'stache. |
| The Masked Mage |
Posted - 29 Jan 2013 : 12:48:28
quote:
Originally posted by swifty
I know its all fantasy and should'nt be taken too seriously but the whole manshoon clones and the current storyline round him just comes across to me as rather silly.I would have preferred him to be just a straight down the line bad ass wizard and go out in spectacular fashion after a war with fzoul.
Fzoul will be dead and forgotten long before Manshoon. Fzoul plays the short game - Manshoon has the patience to understand their long term goals cannot be seized and held indefinitely. Fzoul's power is a token from his god, who already knows his loyalties are worthless. He is a tool, nothing more. |
| swifty |
Posted - 29 Jan 2013 : 11:55:55
I know its all fantasy and should'nt be taken too seriously but the whole manshoon clones and the current storyline round him just comes across to me as rather silly.I would have preferred him to be just a straight down the line bad ass wizard and go out in spectacular fashion after a war with fzoul. |
| JohnLynch |
Posted - 29 Jan 2013 : 10:34:42
quote:
Originally posted by Brimstone
I think that totally blows.
I believe a clone or three are out there somewhere...
If I was an early Manshoon clone I'd take one look to see what year it is. Realise that I've been asleep for a long time. Realise that someone has hunted down and killed every clone between the current year one and me (there'd be at least 1 for every 2 years). I'd find a new hidey hole and would then put myself into stasis for another 100-1000 years, hoping that whatever is hunting down Manshoons is dead by the time I wake up again.
I'd also be wrong (no-one has systematically hunted down each Manshoon clone. All of the clones have simply been awakened at once). But that doesn't invalidate the precautions I've taken.
|
| The Masked Mage |
Posted - 28 Jan 2013 : 22:10:32
As far as the idea that the "REAL MANSHOON" was out there, I thought Cloak and Dagger said that the clones activated when the Manshoon (the current one) was killed by Fzoul.
I don't think the Manshoon clones all activating was because of the Vampire Manshoon - only because that clone would not have been the next in line. As 18th level, he was clearly an earlier clone than "Manshoon Prime."
Manshoon could not have been making stasis clones for very long, since its a 9th level spell and he has not been 18th level for more than a decade or so.
I always assumed that the clones activating was the result of something Elminster did. When I read it my brain immediately when to the scene where he taunts Manshoon with the knowledge that he has done something fatal to a clone or two and if he dies it might be permanent.
I do think that there are now numerous Manshoons left in the realms. The Manshoons were all highly intelligent and would come to the conclusion very quickly that they needed to find a way to rid themselves of their clone impulses. Why seek refuge with Halaster or the Simbul if you're not looking to make a magical change to yourself (BOTH of them had done a lot of work with permanency and spells on themselves and would be invaluable resources in that regard).
In my own little version of things, Manshoon Prime becomes the ultimate manipulator. He spends his time CONTROLLING the Manshoon Wars. Getting this clone to attack that clone, then swooping in to reap the rewards. I'd argue several of the timeline entries in Cloak & Dagger point to this. Two or more Manshoons go to war with each other, then another comes in once the dust settles. I even had the idea that he might have manipulated his way into the office of Magister thinking, he already has to hide from an army of archmages, so there's no downside to it. Talatha's no magical slouch, but she could not defeat 3 Manshoons at once, with a 4th waiting in the wings to claim the prize.
Ok - I think that is enough rambling for one threads :) |
| Lord Bane |
Posted - 28 Nov 2012 : 10:23:13
I see your point Sage, though i have to say that if he had training he would still remember how to swing a sword, does not necessarily mean he can hold his own against a seasoned swordfighter, which was actually my point i tried to make.
Of course we could debate if his cloning did effect his memories of combat training and i could see that he may have forgotten some of the more "advanced" training he recieved in favor of his magical prowess when he cloned his images, but he would still possess the knowledge how a fighter works and he definatly would use the knowledge to his advantage in preparation of possible confrontations with swordfighters. I simply dislike removing a "class" when the knowledge that has been aquired through the class is still present. |
| The Sage |
Posted - 28 Nov 2012 : 04:55:01
quote:
Originally posted by Lord Bane
I am sorry but when you knew how to swing a sword your not likely to forget it, i would say it is similar to swimming.
Sword fighting requires a great deal more skill and mental/physical acclimation and operation than one would also require when just casually swimming [which I'm assuming is the basis of your comparison here].
Most everyone who has had basic training in swimming can easily jump into a pool or into a river/ocean and start swimming. On the other hand, picking up a sword and learning to hold your own in a duel or close-quarters combat isn't something you can just easily handle in the same way.
And let's remember, also, that we're talking about an NPC shifting one's mental and martial focus from a heavily physical activity to an activity that is almost entirely the province of the mind. That would also require an entirely new skill-set which specifically concentrates on developing one's abilities for a new and different form of combat. Which will, usually, mean that other skills, like physical combat training, are often neglected in favour of mastering the Art. |
| Kilvan |
Posted - 27 Nov 2012 : 23:46:41
Yeah you could do that in Baldur's Gate 2, I always thought that this system made absolutely no sense. An X level fighter could forget everything one day to the next because he started arcane training, only to remember all at once once his wizardry was high enough...
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