| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| darkelf15962 |
Posted - 09 Feb 2010 : 15:12:23
If Mystra is dead and the Weave is undone, does it mean the ban is lifted and higher level spells can be used?(Ex. Karsus's Avatar) |
| 30 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| cpthero2 |
Posted - 11 Mar 2020 : 02:05:40
Great Reader Brimstone,
lol...the imagery that just invoked in my mind is awesome....and terrifying.....and sadly, likely true.
Best regards,
quote:
Originally posted by Brimstone
quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X
It seems Ao is responsible (actually or by implication) of anything I don't like in the Realms, lol
AO to me is the personification of TRS/WOTC/HASBRO...
|
| Brimstone |
Posted - 11 Mar 2020 : 02:00:11
quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X
It seems Ao is responsible (actually or by implication) of anything I don't like in the Realms, lol
AO to me is the personification of TRS/WOTC/HASBRO... |
| cpthero2 |
Posted - 10 Mar 2020 : 19:26:46
Master Zeromaru X,
Yeah, that kind of sucks that Ao did that. Since, he now has a significant and proven impact on the Realms beyond ToT and other situations. I think they either need to develop him more, or do what they seem to be doing which is pulling the gods back from mortal affairs and just leaving them to their thing.
Best regards,
quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X
It seems Ao is responsible (actually or by implication) of anything I don't like in the Realms, lol
|
| Renin |
Posted - 10 Mar 2020 : 19:19:01
quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X
It seems Ao is responsible (actually or by implication) of anything I don't like in the Realms, lol
Okay, I legitimately laughed out loud at that. |
| Zeromaru X |
Posted - 10 Mar 2020 : 18:53:08
It seems Ao is responsible (actually or by implication) of anything I don't like in the Realms, lol |
| Brimstone |
Posted - 10 Mar 2020 : 12:43:40
Great Realmslore from the Master! |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 10 Mar 2020 : 10:46:32
Resurrecting this old topic, because of new info from Ed:
@Mercurius_c
Is Mystra the goddess of the Weave of the whole multiverseCor she is just the Weavemaster of Toril?The phb saysgThe spellcasters of the Forgotten Realms call it the Weave and recognize its essence as the goddess Mystra.h
Can I understand it as:There is only one Weave in the multiverse,and wizards of the Toril named the only Weave Mystra?Or it is:The different worlds have different Weavemasters,and they rule the Weave of their own worlds?
@TheEdVerse
I'd put it another way:
Toril and all other worlds have multiple ways of accessing the energies of each world. And usually call the non-mechanical, non-engineering ways of accessing those energies "magic."
ONE of the ways on Toril is arcane magic (in D&D, wizard and sorcerer spells), and those who have the Gift (ability to wield arcane magic, which they call the Art) or study arcane magic (sages) refer to their way of accessing the energies as "the Weave." The Weave IS Mystra, the goddess of magic, and the Weave only extends throughout Realmspace (Toril and moons and the void/heavens around them). Other worlds have other ways of accessing energies, and may have their own equivalents of the Weave (not identical, and not governed by Mystra) or may not. Abeir likely has an equivalent, because it's the sister world of Toril, so similar and even sometimes (the Sunderings) contiguous with Toril, so that elements of the two worlds get swapped, but Weave-based spells don't work on Abeir; but innate spellcasting abilities do. I.e. the world energies are similar enough that magical effects can be near-duplicated, but not how they're brought about.
So in theory, a powerful archwizard from Toril would have to start all over learning how to work magic on Abeir, and if no developed system of working arcane magic, they may never hit upon how to create magical effects on Abeir, or may spend the rest of their lives experimenting and making very little headway.
In theory, all worlds MIGHT have their own Weaves (under various names) and their own gods of magic, or not. "Weavemasters" is a term I coined back in the 1990s for anyone who'd mastered the Weave (understanding its workings enough to not need the trappings of arcane magic like material, somatic, and verbal components), so they could work magic by silent act of will, rather than conventional casting. Accomplished, experienced Weavemasters (like most of the Chosen of Mystra) can think of what they want to do, then mentally call on the Weave to do it. So they can work magic when tied up, gagged, and so on, when traditional casters would be rendered helpless. They control the Weave only so much as they call upon it, and so are not the same as a deity of magic who is the Weave (e.g. Mystra) or who governs the Weave.
So Mystra IS the Weave within Realmspace only, and is greater than a Weavemaster. Other worlds have other systems of magic, and even Toril has other systems of magic (divine magic, for example). Most other systems of magic use the Weave for convenience, but need not do so (travel from real-world place to real-world place is easier using the existing road system, but could be accomplished, in many cases, by not using the existing road system).
#Realmslore
@VikGray
I wonder if arcane healing can replace divine healing or divine one is stronger. Players ask me why the realms need gods at all, and due to ky lack of experience I just say that divine magic gives acess to the healing services that are really usefull so gods have aome use
@TheEdVerse
We know from existing spells and recorded usages of spellfire that arcane magic can indeed heal, but divine magic does it at lower spell levels and at less cost, so divine magic is specialized for healing.
And the Realms need gods because some mortals in the Realms believe the Realms needs gods.
It's like having clocks and calendars. Can we live without them? Yes, but some of us have decided we need them in our lives, so we have them.
#Realmslore
@TruthSalvo
"Even Toril has other systems of magic (divine magic, for example)"
Wasn't it a point of contention during the Time of Troubles that Mystra was blocking the other God's access to magic? Wouldn't this mean Divine is just the Weave funneled through a god to their followers?
@TheEdVerse
You recall the ToT correctly. Divine magic customarily uses the Weave as the conduit, because (like an existing real-world road system) it's the fastest, easiest, most high-capacity way. But there are other ways (real-world web of railroads): place magic, table magic, etc. that I put into Realmslore at the beginning. So Mystra stopped the other deities in their tracks by denying them Weave access TEMPORARILY. They all then had to activate their alternatives. Raging.
And Mystra paid for that.
#Realmslore
@djtigon
@TheEdVerse in the past 20 min you've touched on both the weave and other conduits (ToT mystra denying access to the weave to dieties) & the netherese. So, We know that as of Karsas Folly, magic above level 9 was cut off from spellcasters. Is it true that this is only applies to individual spell casters and that a group of archmagi or a coven of witches or a cabal of warlocks could achieve 10th level or higher by a concurrently cast ritual or one that was cast in cooperative 'pieces' so to speak by multiple casters?
Additionally are level 10+ spells also cut off from extra planar beings such as Archdevils, Demon Princes, or super ancient beings such as the Oracle of Ellyn'taal who knew of these magics, but it's no longer a mere mortal?
@TheEdVerse
Ao cut off access through the Weave to spells above a certain power level (9th level in Torilian arcane magic terms) after the Folly of Karsus the over-reaching mortal. This means that more powerful spells fail upon casting when they access the Weave; it doesnft matter who casts them (so the spells of gods, archdevils, demon princes would fail, when cast into Realmspace, out of Realmspace, or within Realmspace).
IF those spells use the Weave.
There are rituals and magic systems that donft use the Weave, but the archmagi, covens of witches or hags, cabals of warlocks, and so on DO use the Weave in their rituals. Like the transplanted-to-Abeir wizards of Toril I mentioned in my earlier lore reply, such individuals would have to learn, or invent, an entire new system of magic to circumvent the Weave, and this would be hard for them without an expert tutor, because what theyfre used to, which influences how theyfd experiment and innovate, IS using the Weave; theyfd have to go against all instinct and learned behavior. Like one of us getting behind the wheel of a vehicle and overcoming our learned tendencies to steer with the steering wheel and accelerate or brake using the pedals...because this new vehicle steers with taps of the peddles and accelerates or brakes by turning the wheel.
Do-able, but I anticipate many spectacular crashes.
#Realmslore
@Greysil_Tassyr
Wait -- *AO* is the one that banned those spells? So Mystra's Ban, as we've known it for so long, was actually Ao's ban?
@TheEdVerse
Yes. We know it in the Realms as Mystra's Ban because of priestly teachings (propaganda). "Regular folk" know nothing of Ao, but everyone knows about the goddess of magic.
At the time the Ban was enacted, Mystryl was in no condition to ban anything, and Mystra didn't exist yet.
#Realmslore
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| Atom Man |
Posted - 08 Apr 2010 : 14:59:09
Thanks guys! That's exactly what I needed to know. The "filter" concept makes it easier to grasp. |
| The Sage |
Posted - 08 Apr 2010 : 02:41:03
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Divine magic was still the Weave -- it was just the Weave filtered thru a deity.
Indeed. The FRCS, MoF and Ed's comments all make this pretty clear... |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 08 Apr 2010 : 02:16:41
quote:
Originally posted by Atom Man
Apologies in advance if this question isn't completely on topic, but I hope it's close enough.
Okay, so Mystra bites the big one, the Weave is undone, and so is the shadow-weave (as well as some objects such as "charged" magic items.) Arcane magic doesn't go away, but it sort of bleeds and spills into everything. For awhile, it becomes harder to access and manipulate but the surviving spellcasters and a new generation of spellcasters eventually find ways to re-harness it through rituals, items and a new technique - whatever that is and however it shows up in 4e.
My question is what effect the Weave's collapse had on clerical (divine) magic. Obviously, it seems to have followed the same general pattern in the game as the arcane magic. It went from a more or less Vancian system to a system based on at-wills, encounters, utilities and daily spells.
So my question is whether clerical (divine) magic was always dependent upon and tied up with the Weave and therefore collapsed along with it. Or is there some other explanation for why it went through a similar set of changes?
What's the official take on this among the FR experts?
Divine magic was still the Weave -- it was just the Weave filtered thru a deity. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 08 Apr 2010 : 02:16:03
quote:
Originally posted by Izar Talon
So, the ban was part of the Weave. The Weave is gone. Magic is completely different. Similar effects to old spells can be created, but they are achieved through completely different means. But, there is no more ban, because the ban was on what could be done with the Weave, which is gone.
You could say, though, that the Weave supported those higher levels of magic, and with the Weave gone, those higher levels are now inaccessible.  |
| Izar Talon |
Posted - 07 Apr 2010 : 23:52:52
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by IZDemon
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by IZDemon
I'd suspect a spellcaster could cast a higher level spell that had been previously banned. The problem is learning it. The old rules that Mystra enforced should no longer apply.
I don't see that... There really isn't any info in either direction, but I don't see any reason why everything going haywire would cause a reset that circumvented or removed the ban. Just because things changed doesn't mean that previously inaccessible stuff would suddenly be back in play.
If Mystra no longer exists, what is stopping a spellcaster from exploring and gaining the required knowlege of previously banned spells? I guess I see the ban as something that needed to be actively maintained and with Mystra gone, there is no one to police the activities of the mages and enforce the ban.
Quite simple -- if magic itself was changed, the pathways to those banned spells don't necessarily still exist. Just because there's no one making sure the barrier is still there doesn't mean the barrier itself is gone.
As I understand it, which may be wrong, but...
The Weave was destroyed. Magic, as it was known, is gone. Not only do the pathways no longer exist, but the medium in which they existed is gone. This medium would include the barrier as well.
So, the ban was part of the Weave. The Weave is gone. Magic is completely different. Similar effects to old spells can be created, but they are achieved through completely different means. But, there is no more ban, because the ban was on what could be done with the Weave, which is gone. |
| Atom Man |
Posted - 07 Apr 2010 : 21:36:20
Apologies in advance if this question isn't completely on topic, but I hope it's close enough.
Okay, so Mystra bites the big one, the Weave is undone, and so is the shadow-weave (as well as some objects such as "charged" magic items.) Arcane magic doesn't go away, but it sort of bleeds and spills into everything. For awhile, it becomes harder to access and manipulate but the surviving spellcasters and a new generation of spellcasters eventually find ways to re-harness it through rituals, items and a new technique - whatever that is and however it shows up in 4e.
My question is what effect the Weave's collapse had on clerical (divine) magic. Obviously, it seems to have followed the same general pattern in the game as the arcane magic. It went from a more or less Vancian system to a system based on at-wills, encounters, utilities and daily spells.
So my question is whether clerical (divine) magic was always dependent upon and tied up with the Weave and therefore collapsed along with it. Or is there some other explanation for why it went through a similar set of changes?
What's the official take on this among the FR experts? |
| Kentinal |
Posted - 03 Mar 2010 : 18:27:03
quote:
Originally posted by Aalnyar
My question would be since certain restrictions were placed on time travel what happens now if a person who wanted mystra to live in 4e were to some how go back in time to warn her of her impending fate? how would things be affected or would it cause a divergent path/reality of the FR?
Ed has expressed the view the DM can change their world, even if based in FR. It appears his own home campaign does not match published world in some respects.
Thus the answer would appear you have the option of using time travel or also just not allow the death to occur in the first place. A small collected group of fans of Eilistraee have decided not to accept that death, the most votes being staying with 3rd Edition.
That said there is no reason you can not use 4th Edition rules, however include Mystra as goddess of magic. It clearly would take some work on your part to the home campaign to reflect what it appears you want and of course some 4th information published can not apply to your game. |
| Aalnyar |
Posted - 03 Mar 2010 : 17:47:27
My question would be since certain restrictions were placed on time travel what happens now if a person who wanted mystra to live in 4e were to some how go back in time to warn her of her impending fate? how would things be affected or would it cause a divergent path/reality of the FR? |
| Diffan |
Posted - 17 Feb 2010 : 17:12:04
quote:
Originally posted by Ashe Ravenheart
quote:
Originally posted by Diffan
It's a reason I allow 0-level spells to be cast At-will
Funny, Pathfinder did the same thing.
Just sayin'
Yea, I noticed that too. But for as much as Pathfind has strived to perfect the d20 system of D&D, they do take steps backwards. A good example I can think of right off the bat is the restriction on Power Attack. It's like 2 (or 3) steps forward and 1 (or 2) steps back. Grr....  |
| Diffan |
Posted - 17 Feb 2010 : 17:03:24
quote:
Originally posted by Matt James
More on topic, in 4e I see the use of such ancient magic as being an incredibly high Arcana skill check combined with other requirements, such as the development of specific rituals. These rituals would be very taxing as well.
Don't forget expensive spell components to boot! I do wonder if we ever will see the conversions of older sources to the 4e platform? (*hint hint*) |
| Matt James |
Posted - 17 Feb 2010 : 14:58:35
quote:
Originally posted by Ayunken-vanzan
Playing D&D means using the Vancian magic system...
I do not define playing D&D by use of the Vancian magic system.
More on topic, in 4e I see the use of such ancient magic as being an incredibly high Arcana skill check combined with other requirements, such as the development of specific rituals. These rituals would be very taxing as well. |
| Ashe Ravenheart |
Posted - 17 Feb 2010 : 14:37:15
All right everyone, this is devolving into yet ANOTHER session of the endless Edition Wars (seriously, combatants in the Blood War would get exasperated with this). Back to neutral corners and stop comparing the size of your wands. |
| Ashe Ravenheart |
Posted - 17 Feb 2010 : 13:37:27
quote:
Originally posted by Diffan
It's a reason I allow 0-level spells to be cast At-will
Funny, Pathfinder did the same thing.
Just sayin' |
| Zapato |
Posted - 17 Feb 2010 : 08:37:49
I respectfully disagree. Just because a certain system has existed for a long time doesn't mean it shouldn't evolve. There were a lot of things bothering me in 3.0 and 3.5. And I'm glad 4.0 got rid of most of them. Including making every class equally fun to play and creating a more 'intensive' play style for ALL classes.
I know the old system is 'classic' but classic doesn't mean the same as 'good'.
Back on topic: I think its an awesome idea Darkelf. Another thing I like about 4.0 is the ability to create and use ideas like this. |
| Ayunken-vanzan |
Posted - 17 Feb 2010 : 06:14:20
This is what scrolls and wands are for. Playing D&D means using the Vancian magic system, as it is the great and rich heritage of this game. By abandoning this system and giving us another game instead of D&D WotC shows its disrespect for the game entrusted to the company. |
| Diffan |
Posted - 17 Feb 2010 : 04:14:02
I think this is pretty much why epic spells had no level attached to them and required ungodly Spellcrafting rolls and what-not to use. Spellcasters just can't prepare and use lvl 10+ spells on a whim.
As far as spell scrolls not working in 1479 DR, I think this provides a great opportunity for the DM and PC to get together and homebrew a 4e version of the spell. That way, the spell could still be used (albiet with a lot of study, research, and practice) and it adds some wonderful roleplaying and DM/PC interaction. It's what I've started to do in my FR4e campaign. I'm also contributing to converting alot of FR-specific spells from old into 4e here---> http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/20031321/Forgotten_Realms_Spells
And as far as ditching the Vancian system for the blizzard system, while not accurate, I find it so much more refreshing. Typically when I play low- to mid-level wizards I feel so restrained when spellcasting due to the fact that once i'm out, i'm practially useless. It's a reason I allow 0-level spells to be cast At-will (and allow damage dealing 0-lvl spells do to max dmg) when I play 3/3.5E. So while the older, more archaic system was discarded like an old rag, a newer, revised system was put in place that make arcane spellcaster actually feel like spellcasters 24/7. It's a strange concept but better than twiddling your thumbs when you run out of magic missile and have to resort to that useless crossbow that you know you'll hit with once in every 5 shots. |
| Kentinal |
Posted - 17 Feb 2010 : 01:41:40
Hmm, 3rd Edition banned higher then level 9 spells across the realms, however did allow for Epic spells (more powerful then level 8 spells, just not level 10th or higher.
As I recall some of those sample Epic spells clearly matched or exceeded level 10.
It was a different way of using magic and did not break the ban. |
| Ashe Ravenheart |
Posted - 17 Feb 2010 : 01:06:52
Or, just because Mystra closed the road, it doesn't mean that the Spellplague has washed out the only bridge to that road. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 17 Feb 2010 : 00:40:19
quote:
Originally posted by IZDemon
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by IZDemon
I'd suspect a spellcaster could cast a higher level spell that had been previously banned. The problem is learning it. The old rules that Mystra enforced should no longer apply.
I don't see that... There really isn't any info in either direction, but I don't see any reason why everything going haywire would cause a reset that circumvented or removed the ban. Just because things changed doesn't mean that previously inaccessible stuff would suddenly be back in play.
If Mystra no longer exists, what is stopping a spellcaster from exploring and gaining the required knowlege of previously banned spells? I guess I see the ban as something that needed to be actively maintained and with Mystra gone, there is no one to police the activities of the mages and enforce the ban.
Quite simple -- if magic itself was changed, the pathways to those banned spells don't necessarily still exist. Just because there's no one making sure the barrier is still there doesn't mean the barrier itself is gone. |
| Matt James |
Posted - 16 Feb 2010 : 19:05:15
In any event, the idea does bring up some interesting opportunities :) |
| IZDemon |
Posted - 16 Feb 2010 : 18:13:31
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by IZDemon
I'd suspect a spellcaster could cast a higher level spell that had been previously banned. The problem is learning it. The old rules that Mystra enforced should no longer apply.
I don't see that... There really isn't any info in either direction, but I don't see any reason why everything going haywire would cause a reset that circumvented or removed the ban. Just because things changed doesn't mean that previously inaccessible stuff would suddenly be back in play.
If Mystra no longer exists, what is stopping a spellcaster from exploring and gaining the required knowlege of previously banned spells? I guess I see the ban as something that needed to be actively maintained and with Mystra gone, there is no one to police the activities of the mages and enforce the ban. |
| Brix |
Posted - 16 Feb 2010 : 08:42:30
Just a few other ideas:
Since there are many followers of Mystra left, there is still lingering power of the former godess of magic left, wether she is floating on the astral plane, or exists as a ultrapowerful cloud of blue mist, in mortal progenies who seek power nodes (see below) is left to the DM
In addition, when Mystra and the Weave imploded, nodes of divine power were created (much like a pool of radiance). Highly concentrated divine energy. A bunch of people learned how to use this power for good or bad, and seek these places.
These nodes however vanish with each high magic spell cast. So it's a run against time.
When enough nodes are collected Mystril/Mystra rises again |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 16 Feb 2010 : 01:47:14
quote:
Originally posted by IZDemon
I'd suspect a spellcaster could cast a higher level spell that had been previously banned. The problem is learning it. The old rules that Mystra enforced should no longer apply.
I don't see that... There really isn't any info in either direction, but I don't see any reason why everything going haywire would cause a reset that circumvented or removed the ban. Just because things changed doesn't mean that previously inaccessible stuff would suddenly be back in play. |
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