| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Markustay |
Posted - 14 May 2009 : 22:04:29
I had thought to put this in the 'Sages of Realmslore' section, but I think this is more of a discussion then any sort of direct question.
The town/city of baffenburg was discovered (uncovered, really) in The Orc King. It was a town of Orcs and Dwarves that lived together in peace... 
Just where could this possibly fit-in with known history of FR and The North? Anyone (most especially Krash) have a any sort of timeline date in mind for this?
It seems to have been a contemporary of Gauntlgrym, if that helps.
There wasn't much to go on, aside from it seemed to be a co-operative effort and was swallowed-up by the earth at some point. It is unknown to Dwarves (obviously), which I find strange, unless it was purposely left-out of their histories (an experiment gone horribly wrong?)
There is also mention of the "Orc philosipher and wizard" Bowug Kr'kri, who was a leader within the community, and was the one that first lead the Orcs to the Dwarven settlement.
That one sounds like one of the Sharakim from RoD. If anyone recognizes my avatar I use over at WotC, you'll know why I have an interest in this lore. 
Homebrew:
Combining the little in tOK with the Sharakim fluff in RoD, I see a group of Orcs who were cursed in the Moonshaes, were driven from there and tried to settle in the north, befriended the Delzoun Dwarves (or at least one group of them), and for some reason the Orc or dwarvish (or both) Gods found the co-existance blasphemous, and dumped the lot of them into the earth. The city appears to be mostly intact, and considering we are talking about Dwarves and Orcs here, I get the feeling that both groups went their seperate ways after the disaster (no bodies/bones were found in the ruins).
The Orcs travelled north, eventually to settle on the southern border of the Tortured land... and became the Ondonti (going full-cirlcle with the fey connection brought-over from the Moonshaes).
That blends the Baffenburg Orcs with the Sharakim (and their fluff) and the Ondonti all together.
Anyone else have any thoughts? I wouldn't mind Brian (or anyone for that matter) chiming-in. He seems to be the current Moonshae-Guru, and the Sharakim Fluff lends itself to that region for an origin (the story of the sacred stag). |
| 30 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| Sightless |
Posted - 09 May 2012 : 01:21:21
"So here's my thinking - during the height of Delzoun, while dwarves were 'making nice' with both humans and elves, they decided to give the 'enlightened' Orcs of the High forest half-a-chance. At first, it would have just been leery acceptance, and then perhaps some trade. Toward the end, they may have developed a community in-common just for the purpose of interaction. That is what eventually became baffenburg.
This was probably in desperation, around the time Netheril fell, and Delzoun itself was breaking apart (and various clans were joining with whomever could give them sanctuary). One clan of Dwarves - the ones of Baffenburg - and a group of sophisticated high-Forest (fey?) Orcs decided to form their own community, which eventually built into a small sub-culture of its own. Officially part of Delzoun, but most of the 'nicey-nice' would have happened after Delzoun-proper fell. Lots of changes were occurring in The North around that time, and everybody was looking for allies, sometimes in very unexpected places.
"
This was kind of my thinking, although yours is more nicely package than mine is. I need to look up a few of the things you commented on, as I have very little info on them. Like the High forest, etc. |
| Sightless |
Posted - 09 May 2012 : 01:18:24
quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos
Markus, there was a reason I used inverted commas when writing "masters". The dwarves were clever. They did not overtly command and control the orcs, but rather set up small social units, akin to mini-clans, which provided the benefit of "civilising" the orcs and tempering their worst racial predilections whilst still giving them a say. As the years went on, the dwarves became increasing father-figures to the orcs, fonts of knowledge, and kindly benefactors. In this regard, I'm thinking of that film by Shyamalan, "The Village" where a community was kept in isolation by manipulative elder figures.
There was no animosity because the orcs did have a say, but deferred to the dwarven elders in matters of great significance. Perhaps the dwarves used the deepspawn to create a host of nasties that they used to block the most obvious exits from the city, using hidden ways and magic to get dwarven traders out of the city as required. Fear of the outside world, bolstered by dwarven stories about just why they lived underground - to escape a great danger etc. - likley sufficed to keep the orcs happy.
As to the gods situation, I believe that there are several possible explanations. The simplest one is that the orcish gods 'reached out' to the orcs and through visions made them aware that there were "gods for them". The dwarves, scared but not prepared to overtly forbid this rising worship of new orcish deities, tried to incorporate the new faiths into the social structure, hoping that things wouldn't change for the worse. Of course, it did, giving the orcs a greater sense of self, destiny and worth which would finally see thier city torn asunder.
I know my explanation isn't perfect - and I confess I haven't read the Salvatore book this comes from - but with a bit more polish and rooting into existing realmslore, I'm sure it could be more than viable.
-- George Krashos
Reading it is the only reason why I'm commenting here. In the book, it is mentioned that there were periods of unrest, but what caused them isn't explained. It is explained that Bowug, the orc wizard was killed by a follower, but no reason as to why. As for the towns distruction, there's some evidence that something related to the shadow plain did it, as magic acts funny there, and King Battlehammer and company run into creatures from the Shadow plain when they find the town. I'm currently trying to tie it in with a few other ideas about orcs in general and the way things have been historically for them, the tale of the drawing of lots, and it's being possibly rigged, etc, etc. I'm trying to find out if Schar and the spider queen were ever allies at the moment.
|
| George Krashos |
Posted - 09 May 2012 : 00:50:41
Markus, there was a reason I used inverted commas when writing "masters". The dwarves were clever. They did not overtly command and control the orcs, but rather set up small social units, akin to mini-clans, which provided the benefit of "civilising" the orcs and tempering their worst racial predilections whilst still giving them a say. As the years went on, the dwarves became increasing father-figures to the orcs, fonts of knowledge, and kindly benefactors. In this regard, I'm thinking of that film by Shyamalan, "The Village" where a community was kept in isolation by manipulative elder figures.
There was no animosity because the orcs did have a say, but deferred to the dwarven elders in matters of great significance. Perhaps the dwarves used the deepspawn to create a host of nasties that they used to block the most obvious exits from the city, using hidden ways and magic to get dwarven traders out of the city as required. Fear of the outside world, bolstered by dwarven stories about just why they lived underground - to escape a great danger etc. - likley sufficed to keep the orcs happy.
As to the gods situation, I believe that there are several possible explanations. The simplest one is that the orcish gods 'reached out' to the orcs and through visions made them aware that there were "gods for them". The dwarves, scared but not prepared to overtly forbid this rising worship of new orcish deities, tried to incorporate the new faiths into the social structure, hoping that things wouldn't change for the worse. Of course, it did, giving the orcs a greater sense of self, destiny and worth which would finally see thier city torn asunder.
I know my explanation isn't perfect - and I confess I haven't read the Salvatore book this comes from - but with a bit more polish and rooting into existing realmslore, I'm sure it could be more than viable.
-- George Krashos
|
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 08 May 2012 : 20:13:49
I think Krash's explanation is a good one, and could even encompass some of the lore of orcs and dwarves being equal -- perhaps, as the dwarves were declining and the orcs becoming more prominent, they were indeed equal. Or perhaps the lore about them being equal comes from orcish resistance, before it became rebellion. |
| Markustay |
Posted - 08 May 2012 : 19:02:25
The specific lore involved, George, points more to cooperation, NOT a slave/master relationship. the Orcish and Dwarven gods were protrayed as equals.
I don't like Baffenburg; we should pull a 'Netheril', and say that is the name translatted into common - something along the lines of "town of contradictions" in auld Dwarven. I also like the lore even less, even though I am very much pro-Orc (Elves are the real monsters!)
However, we do have some canon that some Orcs aren't all that bad, and I am not just talking about ones to the east and south. Aside from the Ondonti (which probably came from Faerie), we have the High Forest Orcs, who apparently are amicable with the High Forest Elves (maybe not friends, but they don't go out of their way to kill each other, either... and Turlang doesn't seem to mind them).
So here's my thinking - during the height of Delzoun, while dwarves were 'making nice' with both humans and elves, they decided to give the 'enlightened' Orcs of the High forest half-a-chance. At first, it would have just been leery acceptance, and then perhaps some trade. Toward the end, they may have developed a community in-common just for the purpose of interaction. That is what eventually became baffenburg.
This was probably in desperation, around the time Netheril fell, and Delzoun itself was breaking apart (and various clans were joining with whomever could give them sanctuary). One clan of Dwarves - the ones of Baffenburg - and a group of sophisticated high-Forest (fey?) Orcs decided to form their own community, which eventually built into a small sub-culture of its own. Officially part of Delzoun, but most of the 'nicey-nice' would have happened after Delzoun-proper fell. Lots of changes were occurring in The North around that time, and everybody was looking for allies, sometimes in very unexpected places.
This would have also been around the time that the Royal line of Delzoun left Gauntlgrym (near the Valley of Khedrun), and re-settled in Gauntlet-grimm - a Delzoun stronghold far from where most of the 'action' was taking place (in order to preserve the Royal line, which was in danger). Several clans sent 1/2 their numbers with them, and eventually the Fortress grew into a city of its own, and became known as Gauntlgrim (and is often mistaken for the older settlement of very similar name).
Yes, I just had to throw that last part in there.  |
| George Krashos |
Posted - 08 May 2012 : 18:27:25
How about a simpler explanation for Baffenburg (I realy don't like that name!). Deepspawn.
The dwarves of a dwindling clan used magically controlled deepspawn and orcs to create a servitor race to do all the heavy lifting. The Spawn Wars of centuries before had made using dwarves and deepspawn taboo, and orcs were the easiest creatures to use in such a capacity. The clan in question had stumbled upon a very rich vein of (well, whatever you like - mithral, adamantine, diamonds, beljurils, a unique metal ore with never before seen properties etc.) and used the orcs for the grunt work ( literally!) to get it out so it could be processed.
Orcs are fecund - this is well known. As time went on, they created their own pseudo-society living together with their dwarven 'masters'. However, the fact of what the dwarves had done could not become common knowledge. No other dwarven clan would have countenanced their decision. They would have been ostracised and isolated at best, and attacked and destroyed at worst. So they kept apart from other dwarven clans and became, like the Ironstars, secretive and mysterious. In time, this led to isolation and a dwindling dwarven birthrate - very few dwarves "outside the clan" could be brought in as wives and mates.
Fear of inbreeding (and a few bad experiences in that vein) saw the dwarven birthrate plummet. In time, the dwarves became to few to properly control their former subjects. They refused to breed with the orcs. Those dwarves who advocated this for the sake of survival were eliminated. Their carefully contrived and finely balanced society began to unravel. The end was a revolt instigated by members of the orcish population who had either escaped from the environs of Baffenburg and met "real" orcs and come to know what they were in truth, or orcish racial memories, long latent and barely understood, crystallised for some of the orcish leaders (perhaps prompted by visions from the orcish gods) and they realised that they had been nothing but slaves all along.
In the ensuing chaos, the dwarves unleashed desperate safeguards and magic, dooming themselves and much of the orcish population as well. The city was soon abandoned by all survivors (the dwarves had released virulent poisons in an attempt to subjugate and totally eliminate the orcs which lingered on for decades) and no memory of its existence remained save for some strange racial tales of the orcs and some cryptic runestones crafted by surviving dwarves.
There you have it: my on-the-fly explanation for Baffenburg. Make of it what you will.
-- George Krashos |
| Sightless |
Posted - 07 May 2012 : 06:02:03
Well, I am fortunate that “The Orc King” has been brailed, and that I have the first part of it from the library, they’ve not sent the second half yet. Brail books, for those that have never encountered them, can’t contain the same number of pages as a regular book, or the weight would crush the raised print. That means, that a book of three hundred pages or so, is twenty or so brails books. I know that this thread is a bit on the less than new side, but there are some matters that I wish to mention here, both in regards to what has already been discussed, and to some matters that I consider significant that are semi-related to the topic at hand. With that said, I hope that what follows shall be interesting enough for this topic to be revisited.
“The town/city of baffenburg was discovered (uncovered, really) in The Orc King. It was a town of Orcs and Dwarves that lived together in peace...
Just where could this possibly fit-in with known history of FR and The North? Anyone (most especially Krash) have a any sort of timeline date in mind for this?
It seems to have been a contemporary of Gauntlgrym, if that helps.
There wasn't much to go on, aside from it seemed to be a co-operative effort and was swallowed-up by the earth at some point. It is unknown to Dwarves (obviously), which I find strange, unless it was purposely left-out of their histories (an experiment gone horribly wrong?)
There is also mention of the "Orc philosipher and wizard" Bowug Kr'kri, who was a leader within the community, and was the one that first lead the Orcs to the Dwarven settlement.
That one sounds like one of the Sharakim from RoD. If anyone recognizes my avatar I use over at WotC, you'll know why I have an interest in this lore.
Homebrew:
Combining the little in tOK with the Sharakim fluff in RoD, I see a group of Orcs who were cursed in the Moonshaes, were driven from there and tried to settle in the north, befriended the Delzoun Dwarves (or at least one group of them), and for some reason the Orc or dwarvish (or both) Gods found the co-existance blasphemous, and dumped the lot of them into the earth. The city appears to be mostly intact, and considering we are talking about Dwarves and Orcs here, I get the feeling that both groups went their seperate ways after the disaster (no bodies/bones were found in the ruins).
The Orcs travelled north, eventually to settle on the southern border of the Tortured land... and became the Ondonti (going full-cirlcle with the fey connection brought-over from the Moonshaes).
That blends the Baffenburg Orcs with the Sharakim (and their fluff) and the Ondonti all together“ (Markustay, 14 May 2009 : 22:04:29).
First, let us review a few things about the Sharakim, to confirm what I’ve researched about them. They were a group of humans that were cursed into looking like orcs, and in mechanics terms keep all of their human mechanics. I shall leave my issues of this concept aside for the moment, and analyze two issues that immediately arise. If he’s a Sharakim, and the others are also Sharakim, then why would the statue of Gruumsh be present? For even cursed humans in the form of orcs would still retain the mental state of being human, their religion and culture would remain human, and thus there would be no Orcish statues of orcish gods.
Now, let us assume the latter, let us assume that he, Bowug Kr’kri is a Sharakim, but the others are not, he would then have to enter a tribe in the region, one that would be immediately suspicious of him. He would be considered strange for them, one for if he is a Sharakim he would behave like a human, and not an orc, some of this could be written off to his being a wizard, which would bring another level of suspicion, especially if he had no divine magic to call upon. This is all well and good, his magical abilities would be useful, if he proved himself as such, and remained on his guard; then he could have asserted himself well enough. This of course bypasses one essential point, which I shall raise now.
Why would he want to?
Why would a human cursed to look like an orc want to further remind himself of that, by heading to an orc tribe in the Nortth, when a simple polymorph spell could allow him to live elsewhere; why would he want to raise himself within a tribe to a position of influence and leadership, when doing so would first be considerably difficult, and second increase the likelihood of harm coming his way; and then lastly why would he go to a dwarvan settlement and secure his tribe there. A dwarvan city, not a human one. If he were Sharakim, logic dictates that he would pick the population of which he most strongly associates, which by the way isn’t a dwarf. I could continue on this line of logic, but I shall not, for two reasons: first, it will not positively add anything to the issue; and second, I am not completely certain that my information on Sharakim is correct. By this last statement I am referring to their cursed status.
Now, unfortunately, the only reason to assume that it might have been a contemporary of Gauntlgrym that I can see, is given the fact that it was around for two centuries, and that they were looking for Gauntlgrym when they found it. It could have been a serfice outpost of the Dilzing that was a midpoint between that city and Gauntlgrym. Likely the case, which would explain the absence of humans in the city originally, but the eventual coming of humans to the city, probably after the demise of the serfice outpost. Now, I should point one problem with an ssumption that, unless I am missing something very crucial, seems to not make sense. You state that one of the orc, or dwarvan gods took offense at the arrangement, which if the wizard was as you say, would complicate issues a lot, like bringing the human gods, or the Fay possibly into the mix, but I don’t think this is the case. I think what actually happened is far simpler, but no less tragic. The place was an encursion spot for the plain of shadow. Given what is mentioned we know that something involving the plain took place there, to what extent is unclear, but we do know that whatever it was it altered the landscape enough that it caused a settlement to go from being up above to being down below.
Now, this might be a flight of fancy, but I’ve got a feeling that the Dwarvan and Orcish gods blamed each other for the event. I’m sure that there might have been some survivers, assuming of course that Schar didn’t have an arrangement with some other god to come in when the city went underground. That’s not also considering what came through at the time either, as the party ran into some shadow beings, it’s highly probable that more came through during the initial event.
This is the issue then, and I know not enough to be able to say one way or the other. One, the settlement most be either oled enough/ far enough removed, that it was not a regular stop for anyone, which seems to me to be unlikely, or that active parties engatged in actions to make sure that history and records were altered so that no one learned of the place. This former makes sense, as early on the King tells the Halfling that a terrible battle between dwarfs and orcs were fought there and that’s the reason for the ghosts. It seems to me that the ghosts are the results related to the town, and not anything directly related to a battle. Although, this is purely an aassumption. It wouldn’t surprise me though that many parties would want to keep the reality of an orc dwarf settlement a secret. It wouldn’t be hard either, if the orc Gruumsh thought the dwarvan Gods responsible and vice versa. The town could be first one of those lessons that dwarvan parents use to teach their children never to trust an orc. Orc parents use it as another example as to why orcs should hate everyone.
This to me could be used to explain the shift in Gruumsh from Lawful Evil to Chaotic evil, depending on your wants. I for one, prefer to think of this as one of those rare instances, were people stop holding to the rigid stereotypes that seem to provide the setting, or at least what I’ve observed of it. I’ll touch back on this more in a bit. My discussion here, is is much to present some logical issues that one might have to consider if they hold to the assumptions so stated in the quotes provided. I shall do the same with another set shortly.
“Oh, and I wish that someone with guts and gumption would tell Salvatore that "Baffenburg" is a great name for a cute, little German city, but not so good for the fantasy Realms. Why, just why, do his editors not intervene and say "Great name! Change it!".*sigh*” (George Krashos, 15 May 2009 : 05:35:55
----------).
I feel the need to make a comment here, it’s a nod to Robert Howard. Yes, the name, and the idea behind it, was one of his shorts, and a good one, where the Elves are the villains. The elves are waging a war of complete genaside against them, the humans being unwhiting pawns, and the orcs manage to survive by joining a dwarvan settlement, named Bafthenburg. Keeping to Howard for a moment I feel one of his quotes to be useful ,
“They have no hope here, or here after.” This post however, is long enough, and I’ll go for the reply function here on out.
This described his God, and I find it describes the orc God Gruumsh well too.
|
| Jorkens |
Posted - 29 May 2009 : 21:28:54
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Which brings us full circle (and back on-topic... sort-of).
We all know who wrote the Bloodstone Lands. 
I still find the blurb on the back cover of that product one of the funniest pieces of 'mis-information' ever published about the Realms.
I never noticed that before . |
| Markustay |
Posted - 29 May 2009 : 21:20:17
Which brings us full circle (and back on-topic... sort-of).
We all know who wrote the Bloodstone Lands.
I still find the blurb on the back cover of that product one of the funniest pieces of 'mis-information' ever published about the Realms. |
| Jorkens |
Posted - 29 May 2009 : 21:15:33
quote:
Originally posted by swifty
quote:
Originally posted by Asgetrion
quote:
Originally posted by Jorkens
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
I thought the exact same thing about the name.
But then again, it's WAAAAAY better then any Dwarf name (other then Bruenor) that he's ever come up with.
I think it's salvagable because 1) the Dwarves never heard of it, and 2) it was hit with a catastrophe that sank it into the ground.
That just screams 'secret' and 'divine intervention' to me, which works to our advantage given the fact it's un-Realmsish in flavor.
I don't know, that name is one of the worst I have seen, with the exception of the names taken directly from Earth that sneak in from time to time.
My feelings exactly! I'll echo George's words: why don't the editors care about names in the Realms novels? I liked the novel until the whole "orcs-and-dwarves-in-harmony" bit came up, topped with this completely "un-Realmsish" name. I stopped reading then and there. 
theres a place in the northern realms somewhere near damara i think called sunderland.this is actually a city in north east england.
If I remember the area of Damara, Vaasa (another unrealmsian name)etc. is among the worst when names are concerned. |
| Markustay |
Posted - 29 May 2009 : 12:13:06
Its the same place.
You'd better check - yours is probably missing since the Spellplague. |
| swifty |
Posted - 29 May 2009 : 10:31:23
quote:
Originally posted by Asgetrion
quote:
Originally posted by Jorkens
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
I thought the exact same thing about the name.
But then again, it's WAAAAAY better then any Dwarf name (other then Bruenor) that he's ever come up with.
I think it's salvagable because 1) the Dwarves never heard of it, and 2) it was hit with a catastrophe that sank it into the ground.
That just screams 'secret' and 'divine intervention' to me, which works to our advantage given the fact it's un-Realmsish in flavor.
I don't know, that name is one of the worst I have seen, with the exception of the names taken directly from Earth that sneak in from time to time.
My feelings exactly! I'll echo George's words: why don't the editors care about names in the Realms novels? I liked the novel until the whole "orcs-and-dwarves-in-harmony" bit came up, topped with this completely "un-Realmsish" name. I stopped reading then and there.
theres a place in the northern realms somewhere near damara i think called sunderland.this is actually a city in north east england. |
| The Sage |
Posted - 29 May 2009 : 00:51:46
Okay, we seem to be getting somewhat off-topic. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 28 May 2009 : 20:44:46
quote:
Originally posted by Christopher_Rowe
Fair enough. Alignment changes among deities in the Realms are unprecedented?
Nope. But if he's part of a three-part deity, with each aspect distinct from the others, then they shouldn't be influencing each other. |
| Christopher_Rowe |
Posted - 28 May 2009 : 19:12:24
Fair enough. Alignment changes among deities in the Realms are unprecedented? |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 28 May 2009 : 18:59:37
quote:
Originally posted by Christopher_Rowe
And perhaps also because of the influence of the centuries he spent manifesting only his Lathander aspect.
I don't see that. Because if Myrkul really was the third aspect, then his evil should be factored in, as well. Not only that, but if he stayed good, then he should be more like Lathander. |
| Christopher_Rowe |
Posted - 28 May 2009 : 18:43:34
And perhaps also because of the influence of the centuries he spent manifesting only his Lathander aspect. |
| Ashe Ravenheart |
Posted - 28 May 2009 : 18:33:55
That's because there isn't a Lawful Neutral anymore. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 28 May 2009 : 18:01:21
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
I think thats a huge part of it as well. There are some aspects of 4eFR I like, but its written in such a lackluster way that it doesn't 'inspire' at all. Not like the 1e & 2e sources did.
The 4e books read like textbooks. Even Ed's RA was wittled-down in editting to be dry and lifeless. You can still tell it's Ed, but they have sucked all the life out of it.
I've found some elements I'd port backwards into the pre-3E Realms, but obviously, I'd handle these things differently. I like the idea of the Five Companies, and I love the idea of a Thayan civil war (though I'd do it entirely differently).
As a side note, has anyone noticed the 4E Amaunator has a different alignment than the 2E Amaunator? He was originally Lawful Neutral, and 4E made him Lawful Good. |
| Markustay |
Posted - 28 May 2009 : 17:25:10
I think thats a huge part of it as well. There are some aspects of 4eFR I like, but its written in such a lackluster way that it doesn't 'inspire' at all. Not like the 1e & 2e sources did.
The 4e books read like textbooks. Even Ed's RA was wittled-down in editting to be dry and lifeless. You can still tell it's Ed, but they have sucked all the life out of it. |
| Jorkens |
Posted - 28 May 2009 : 10:04:08
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
quote:
Originally posted by Drizztsmanchild
It's still viable even if it was rushed if you will. How long before TOK was there talk @ Wotc about implementing 4e? Maybe RAS was asked to rush the peace between the two enemies?
Except that they apparently decided to ignore most of what happened in the RAS books, and the Silver Marches appears to be much as it was in 1e... minus Alustriel.
I was actually looking forward to the 'new Orc Kingdom', and all we got is Orcs vs everyone else in the North... same as it ever was.
This is why I feel 4e wasn't aimed at someone like me - the things I thought should have moved forward - Orc relations, the resolution of the Old Empires war, the new city of Hope, the restoration of Cormyr... all ignored, for the most part (or replaced).
Instead, we got sweeping changes to stuff that didn't need change, just some sprucing up. It didn't feel like the Realms were moved forward, it feels as if they were 're-booted' with a new continuity.
Something that trurned me off to comics awhile back. 
It is strange really. These changes (done to events which I never liked) actually sounds good to me, as do some of the other things they did with the setting, but all the same I feel no inclination to check out the new version. I can read the 1ed. version and old Dragon articles again and again, but the 4ed. just leaves me cold. |
| Jorkens |
Posted - 28 May 2009 : 09:58:43
quote:
Originally posted by BlackAce
quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
quote:
Originally posted by Jakk
Every technological advancement we've made has been motivated by the desire to kill our neighbours more effectively.
Modern medicine? Transportation? Clean water? Improved Sanitation? Abundant food? Central heating and cooling?
Actually, Rino, yes.
Modern medicine? Louis Pasteur cut his teeth as a battlefield surgeon. Many modern surgical techniques owe their creation to various wars and conflicts.
Transportation? The notion of a straight and well engineered road was a Roman idea as a way of enabling their armies to march quickly. The modern Interstate/Motorway/Autobahn was developed by the nazi's for similar political/militaristic reasons.
Clean water? Improved Sanitation? It's worth reading up on the exploits of Florence Nightingale during the crimean war. While she's remembered for her nursing, it was actually the folow-up work she did on army health and sanitation that had the most lasting impact. She even invented the Pie-Chart as a side effect of her reports.
Abundant food? A byproduct of industrialization, though not a universal one, which was itself a byproduct of free trade and the global economy created largely thanks to the Royal Navy's dominace of the seas (and the sea lanes) in the aftermath of the Napoleonic Wars.
Central heating and cooling? Ok, there you got me.... 
You are taking it a bit to far here I think. Tied to competition and government interests, including violence sounds right, but not necessarily the motivation to kill.
But this could result in an endless history discussion that could be fun, but quite out of place at the Keep, so I will let it lie. |
| BlackAce |
Posted - 28 May 2009 : 07:35:01
quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
quote:
Originally posted by Jakk
Every technological advancement we've made has been motivated by the desire to kill our neighbours more effectively.
Modern medicine? Transportation? Clean water? Improved Sanitation? Abundant food? Central heating and cooling?
Actually, Rino, yes.
Modern medicine? Louis Pasteur cut his teeth as a battlefield surgeon. Many modern surgical techniques owe their creation to various wars and conflicts.
Transportation? The notion of a straight and well engineered road was a Roman idea as a way of enabling their armies to march quickly. The modern Interstate/Motorway/Autobahn was developed by the nazi's for similar political/militaristic reasons.
Clean water? Improved Sanitation? It's worth reading up on the exploits of Florence Nightingale during the crimean war. While she's remembered for her nursing, it was actually the folow-up work she did on army health and sanitation that had the most lasting impact. She even invented the Pie-Chart as a side effect of her reports.
Abundant food? A byproduct of industrialization, though not a universal one, which was itself a byproduct of free trade and the global economy created largely thanks to the Royal Navy's dominace of the seas (and the sea lanes) in the aftermath of the Napoleonic Wars.
Central heating and cooling? Ok, there you got me.... |
| Rinonalyrna Fathomlin |
Posted - 28 May 2009 : 02:38:23
quote:
Originally posted by Jakk
Every technological advancement we've made has been motivated by the desire to kill our neighbours more effectively.
Modern medicine? Transportation? Clean water? Improved Sanitation? Abundant food? Central heating and cooling?
Technology certainly gives us the luxury of being misanthropes.
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| Rinonalyrna Fathomlin |
Posted - 28 May 2009 : 02:02:09
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Obould had always tried to build a Kingdom by peaceful means, and when he wasn't allowed to do the same thing every other intelligent race is, he took matters into his own hands.
That doesn't sound anything like the Obould I've read about in any of the sourcebooks (novels included).
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Last time I checked, killing an intelligent, speaking creature was considered murder in the RW... and yet, its okay in FR, so long as the creature in question is a Goblinoid.
Not quite--not all killing is murder. Murder is a specific type of killing.
quote:
Orcs ARE brutal... but then again.. so is everybody else. The difference is that orcs are never forgiven their sins. Are sharks evil? Or Crocodiles? Do we hunt them to extinction? And they can't even talk....
And they also aren't sapient. Are you suggesting orcs aren't sapient? |
| Rinonalyrna Fathomlin |
Posted - 28 May 2009 : 01:31:58
quote:
Originally posted by Drizztsmanchild
RF:Good lady I never meant to imply that Obould was a gentlemen and scholar, only that he's not like his kin in how he sees the future of his people. By all rights Obould is still an evil creature.
Fair enough.
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
The idea of forming the Silver Marches (originally called Luruar) quite predated the idea of an orc kingdom.
Also, I always thought that Luruar/Silver Marches was, within the setting, largely inspired by Myth Drannor. |
| Markustay |
Posted - 26 May 2009 : 19:45:18
quote:
Originally posted by Drizztsmanchild
It's still viable even if it was rushed if you will. How long before TOK was there talk @ Wotc about implementing 4e? Maybe RAS was asked to rush the peace between the two enemies?
Except that they apparently decided to ignore most of what happened in the RAS books, and the Silver Marches appears to be much as it was in 1e... minus Alustriel.
I was actually looking forward to the 'new Orc Kingdom', and all we got is Orcs vs everyone else in the North... same as it ever was.
This is why I feel 4e wasn't aimed at someone like me - the things I thought should have moved forward - Orc relations, the resolution of the Old Empires war, the new city of Hope, the restoration of Cormyr... all ignored, for the most part (or replaced).
Instead, we got sweeping changes to stuff that didn't need change, just some sprucing up. It didn't feel like the Realms were moved forward, it feels as if they were 're-booted' with a new continuity.
Something that turned me off to comics awhile back. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 26 May 2009 : 17:11:33
quote:
Originally posted by Drizztsmanchild
It's still viable even if it was rushed if you will.
It's viable for a group whose entire society is built on warfare, aggression, and the oppression of the weak by the strong to suddenly want to get along with everyone, become farmers and traders, and essentially turn against everything they had done for millenia and that their deities dictated was the only way of life? They turned away from everything they knew to embrace the behavior of their hated enemies, behavior that they were ingrained to think was weak and worthy of subjugation by others.
Not viable.
quote:
Originally posted by Drizztsmanchild
How long before TOK was there talk @ Wotc about implementing 4e? Maybe RAS was asked to rush the peace between the two enemies?
They'd been working on 4E for a couple of years (while explicitly denying it  ) before they inflicted it on us. It's likely that they'd started that process before RAS ever set pen to paper on that book.
The only way I can see of an orc kingdom surrounded by but coexisting with its formerly hostile neighbors is for there to be some far larger outside threat that all the races had to band together to fight. However, even that doesn't explain seizing enemy lands and then making friendly with them. And usually, the enemy in the North that everyone has to band together to fight is the orcs. So I just don't see it.
Now, as I mentioned earlier... If a group of orcs was geographically isolated from everyone else, then I can see them forming a stable kingdom, and then making peace with their neighbors when such neighbors showed up. Basically, I can't see the orcs abandoning their aggressive ways unless there was no one for them to be aggressive towards.
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| BEAST |
Posted - 26 May 2009 : 15:05:55
quote:
Originally posted by Drizztsmanchild
Also I don't believe anyone believes(posters or Npc's) Obould never deserved justice for the crimes he committed
Since they didn't bring him to justice, but instead let him get away with all of his wanton killings, they effectively did not really believe that he deserved justice.
They believed that he should be afforded mercy.
And those two aims, justice and mercy, are the opposites of one another.
Where this is headed is an orc kingdom peopled by lots of orcs who apparently think that rules don't apply to them, since they clearly did not apply to their kingdom's founder (see TOK, Pre.). Gee--let their leader get away without being punished according to rational rules of conduct, and his followers expect more of the same for themselves. Whodathunkit?
The Kingdom of Many-Arrows was originated, and it continues on into the future, based on goodly folks insanely looking the other way, over and over again. It's a self-compromising farce. It's all based on a lie. Obould VI is right to feel dirty about it all in 1472 DR. Drizzt spoke of a cognitive dissonance in TOK. Well, this whole thing gives me nothing but cognitive dissonance.
Perhaps Baffenburg society actually failed because it was likewise founded on the idea that goodly folk should sacrifice justice for lenience with orcs, and despite Kr'kri's own apparent personal enlightenment, the masses did what orcs do: they took advantage of the easy situation and wore out their welcome.
No justice = no peace. No real peace, that is. You just end up with pent-up, bottled-up frustration and resentment without any resolution.
Heck, maybe that's what blew the ground open and caused the cave-in that destroyed Baffenburg. |
| Drizztsmanchild |
Posted - 26 May 2009 : 10:51:13
Also I don't believe anyone believes(posters or Npc's) Obould never deserved justice for the crimes he committed, but the cost would've been far greater to try to bring him to justice than to just accept the cease-fire and so Bruenor and the other Dwarf leaders swallowed their pride and accepted it(like the humans did in The two swords) with much encouraging from Drizzt who also saw the road where the constant battle would lead them. |
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