| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Ozzalum |
Posted - 03 May 2009 : 00:34:45
I've noted, from my admittedly somewhat limited reading, that most all of the named Drow fighters are male? Drizzt takes on a few females here and there but it seems whenever a really tough fighter is being described, it's always a guy.
First off, is that a true characterization of things or have I misread?
Secondly, if that's the case, why? Females are bigger and stronger than males, and they can't all be priestesses, can they? |
| 30 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| Misery |
Posted - 09 Jun 2009 : 11:09:50
quote:
Originally posted by sfdragon
btw, which pathfinder book has the drow pc stats?? or any racial stats??
Not really one yet. The books/adventure paths they have put out are still under the 3.5 ruleset so they are still using those. There was interest in development of possibly trying to get rid of the drow's LA but whether it goes through or not we'll likely see when their bestiary (their monster manual) comes out (i think in september) |
| sfdragon |
Posted - 06 Jun 2009 : 18:49:44
btw, which pathfinder book has the drow pc stats?? or any racial stats?? |
| Ozzalum |
Posted - 28 May 2009 : 17:28:40
Of course, this latest response continues to beg the question "why would any sane drow get pregnant?"
It seems to me that Lolth is most concerned about establishing a master race of elves. Instead of focusing on developing a powerful society, she focuses on a society made up of powerful individuals.
Now, it's possible that instead, Lolth focuses on building a society made up of powerful houses, but that doesn't seem quite right. The line "Although treachery and cruelty are often rewarded, Lolth does not look kindly on those who let personal grudges and revenge-taking bring defeat or shame to their House, clan, city, or band." doesn't sound a whole lot like Lolth to me. That sounds a lot more like something somebody running a house/clan would say to their underlings. Sort of along the lines of "let's keep this reasonable people, I have power to maintain."
One of the key elements in Lolth's approach is to remove the element of love and affection as a motivator. In relations between the sexes, this is achieved by raising up women to positions of unassailable authority. Other societies have men in this role, but elevating the females has the additional benefit of severing the bond between mothers and their offspring. Moms have more important things to do than raise their kids. Paternal influences seem to be dealt with more directly, by removing any parental rights or responsibilities from the fathers.
This is all well and good for Lolth with respect to nobles. But commoners with fewer aspirations, responsibilities, and enemies would more naturally gravitate to a "standard" nuclear family. I think such an arrangement would severely threaten Lolth's plans. If the majority of your populace is capable of feeling love for family members and really trusting and depending on others, weak individuals could easily survive.
So I expect "the state" in the form of the ruling houses intervenes to break up families before they can form. They can't do a great deal about couples forming, perhaps, but they could make sure any offspring are not raised in such a setting. I would expect that children would be taken from their mothers some point after they are weaned, and raised collectively by the clergy.
The exact implementation of such a system would be great fun to write about. |
| Zanan |
Posted - 27 May 2009 : 10:44:34
Of course mothers were / are concerned. For essentially, every child is (in days to come) a potential thread to your own position and life. Hence, it is always good to know what it is / they are up to. ... which is the noble or otherwise powerful drow female's way of thinking. Your average foot soldier or "peasant" or peasant is less likely to constantly watch over his or her shoulder. |
| MrHedgehog |
Posted - 27 May 2009 : 09:57:29
I recall there being drow rules put forward which would explain how their society doesn't collapse. Such as a house can only destroy another house if they can destroy them in one total attack? Which would lessen the death rate amongst nobles...and they expend a lot of energy making sure they don't get killed themselves, so they think about wanting to kill each other a lot more than they actually do. I recall a novel talking about twin sisters of Pharaun having a feud which lasted decades before one kills the other, for example.
In Windwalker, which I just read, Liriel specifically says that anyone with access to magic can choose when they have children sooo canonically it is implied drow can and often do use some kind of contraceptives (spells? potions? I don't know = p) The benefit of having a child in drow society would presumably be an increase in your own power? Another member to serve you in your household. From what I recall in novels the mothers were very concerned with the doings of their children and how they spent their time training.
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| sfdragon |
Posted - 24 May 2009 : 10:34:13
or when it ceases to be amusing after 10 years of it
looks at house do'urden and whats the other one..... |
| Zanan |
Posted - 24 May 2009 : 10:15:16
Well, I have more pressing matters to attend to today, so I just through in one rather important thing that no-one talking about Lolthite drow should forget (Demihuman Deities)
quote:
Although treachery and cruelty are often rewarded, Lolth does not look kindly on those who let personal grudges and revenge-taking bring defeat or shame to their House, clan, city, or band.
|
| sfdragon |
Posted - 24 May 2009 : 02:34:45
define witness
Drizzt and Zak watching one house attacking another house.
Drizzt: looks pissed.
Zak.. puls drizzt asaide and talks about subject.
Drizzt: but aren't we witnesses??
Zak: No we are onlookers.
Lolth in Tangled webs or daughter of the drow, stated to cease as the drow male sacrifice as well.
but it still doesnt stop calculated street assassination, and mind you not to many would care.
and as for pregnate drow females, oh they'd kill her allright and sell the child into slavery, or sacrifice to lolth. |
| Ozzalum |
Posted - 24 May 2009 : 01:03:13
sf, I agree in general that they simply don't care so long as there are no witnesses. I think pregnant drow would be a special case, since the future of the race is at stake. It would just be too tempting to wait until your foe was stuck waddling around and then strike. |
| sfdragon |
Posted - 24 May 2009 : 00:04:14
CSI: Menzoberranzan....
I doubt the ruling council would care.
they'd go and say, not a noble, not our problem.
we drow conspire to kill each other off all the time just to rise in power.
after all no witness to the crime, there is nothing.
which means drow a can kill drow b, and as long as drow a had no relative to witness, they are not going to care. |
| Ozzalum |
Posted - 23 May 2009 : 19:52:11
Ok so here's my take on how little Drow keep coming into existence.
Lolthite society is totalitarian and does not suffer anything to exist that could fill the role that Lolth has held for herself. In your standard totalitarian society, there are strict controls on speech and gatherings, with serious distrust of competing religions or political movements. These elements are present in Lolthite society but there is also the addition element that even nuclear families are distrusted. Even in the higher end of society there is no such thing as a mother and father raising their own child. Instead, the father is selected purely for his genetic traits and the mother gives the child to others to be raised/indoctrinated.
Now I had the question of why any sane Drow woman would sign up for pregnancy and childbirth when there is basically no reward. Someone mentioned that killing a pregnant drow would be frowned upon, based on the fact that it was endangering the continuation of the race. While that makes sense at a macro level, it surely wouldn't restrain as individual bent on murder unless there were some penalty to doing so that would outweigh the gain. In this society, the only source for that penalty would be the clergy. So I propose that the death of a pregnant drow would actually be actively investigated by some elements within the Lolth clergy. I propose the formation of CSI: Menzoberranzan.
So that would make pregnancy a reasonably safe experience, but still unfulfilling as there is little gain to be had. So why do the Drow continue to plague us?
1) It would be my contention that despite being cursed by the Elven gods, maternal instincts would still be at least fairly common among the Drow. It is simply too ingrained a trait to disappear entirely. So at least some drow babies would result from purely instinctual drives.
2) While contraceptives are common place in the Realms, perhaps they are outlawed or highly regulated in Drow society. Just sit back and wait for those chaotic, impulsive drow to slip up and have kids.
3) Perhaps the Lolthite clergy take a more direct role in things, mandating that females give birth every X number of years, or else be fined or otherwise sanctioned. Since individual Drow are self-centered to a fault, it would fall on the ruling classes to ensure the survival of the species.
I have some thoughts on how the last method might be implemented but I'll save them for later. Anyone want to add any other possibilities?
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| sfdragon |
Posted - 23 May 2009 : 14:13:24
quote:
Originally posted by Ozzalum
Thanks, I was wondering if blood would really be a distinguishing characteristic and it sounds like the answer is... sort of.
What of a commoner founding a house? Is that even remotely plausible? Do new houses come into existence or is it a constant winnowing?
ummm, at one time I thought it was stated somewhere what mezob.... had 100 houses in it.
IMO: the top 20 or the houses on the ruling council would be considered nobles of any drow city.
this is just however my opinion and my take on it. which it and of itself is debatable . |
| Zanan |
Posted - 22 May 2009 : 22:40:00
Well, obviously, in a sophisticated setting as the Realms, the drow are more than just "a type of creature out of the Monstrous/Monster Manuel meant to entertain the players", even though that's their general purpose in the game. The problem with such a sophisticated setting is that one simply cannot have a good and detailed background for everything. The drow got far greater a share of dedication than other races - and creatures for that matter. But still, not all that is out there was written at the same time, by the same authors or, more importantly, was meant to make sense to a "real-worlder". |
| Ozzalum |
Posted - 22 May 2009 : 21:29:43
I guess I should be indignant or something but alas, as you point out, it is only a game. I mostly read the novels, though I have the 2E Drow of the Underdark as well and whatever the core book was called in 3E. I guess that's why I thought they were supposed to be more than just a monster race. They have written a couple dozen novels with Drow as the main protagonists, after all. But if Drow are just there for XP, you're certainly right, no need for them to make any more sense than an owlbear. |
| Zanan |
Posted - 22 May 2009 : 13:53:19
Ozzalum ... you have actually read abook about the drow or two, yes? T'seem's to me to become a Q&A about stuff that should be "common" knowledge.
Anyways ... the question why drow society hasn't blown up time and again over the course of its existence (some 11,000 years) is a conundrum debated as long as the race as such sprung into existence. A few books (The Drow of the Underdark / Drow of the Underdark / Tome of Drow Lore et al) have shed some light on this, while you'd have to sift through the other books and try to make up your own opinion on how they survive.
In essence, while it is all fair and square to speculate, the drow as a monster race are not exactly meant to present us with a full ecology and all, but with monsters to gain XP from. The rest is flair that may or may not make sense.
BTW, Ed Greenwood put out a novel series about drow ... nay Nifl where he describes a dark elven society how he might envisage them, Dark Warrior Rising. |
| Rinonalyrna Fathomlin |
Posted - 21 May 2009 : 15:03:01
quote:
Originally posted by Ozzalum
That Catavina really was a prude, all covered up in the full plate.
http://www.o-love.net/realms/covers_large/pic_lad2.jpg
Heh... |
| Rinonalyrna Fathomlin |
Posted - 21 May 2009 : 15:02:12
quote:
Originally posted by Ranak
I was glad that in the Lady Penitent we saw Drow priestesses in full armor (Catavina). I always wondered how Eilistrae's followers survived combat half dressed.
Priestesses of Eilistraee normally wear whatever is appropriate for the task at hand, including protective armor. There's no mandate that they always be nude or only half-dressed--that's just for certain rituals.
EDIT: I see Zanan addressed this, but I'll leave this post up anyway to help keep the point seen. |
| Ozzalum |
Posted - 21 May 2009 : 13:26:49
quote:
Personal slights and such would still end up in blood, but again, how much opportunity are commoners going to have to do this kind of thing? The entire society can't be running around constantly killing each other -- it would very quickly collapse, if that was the case.
That's exactly what I'm trying to figure out. How does Drow society keep from collapsing? That's why I tend to believe that the truly crazy behavior is reserved for the nobles, who can afford it. I can't imagine surviving a day in a Drow city as they are generally implied to operate, let alone decades.
Let's say it is a serious social no-no to off a pregnant woman, what about after she has her little evil squirt? Can you make an orphan of her before she is of age and still be invited to all the important social engagements?
I just don't see how any rational female would take the risk for such little reward. They aren't even really supposed to like their kids, right?
I think those dreadfully evil Drow ladies are really soft on inside, wanting to get a little nurturing in before somebody stabs them in the back.
When I started writing that sentence, I was joking, but it makes more sense to me than some of other possibilities. |
| Zanan |
Posted - 21 May 2009 : 10:16:33
Outside Demihuman Deities, the Drow Justiciar PrC in Underdark, and the rebel-Selvetarmites in Lady Penitent I, very little knowledge has been passed on about the Selvetarmites.
Going by the lore we have, they might be employed on Lolthite cities who have a more "lax" dogmatic view, whereas you'd still find it hard to find them in a truly dogmatic place like Menzoberranzan. There are samples for them in DD. In a place where there is a number of religions about (Eryndlyn), it might be conceivable that they even reach positions of power. But I for one cannot view them as having any sort of impact on drow society, really.
As for pregnant drow, the Tome of Drow Lore deals with this (for the Mongoose setting), while the late-3RE Drow of the Underdark has a word or two about them in D&D Core. You'd probably has to ask Ed over at his Candlekeep board with regards to Realmspace. I can't think of having read on pregnant drow females in an FR book (apart from Qilué's birth and the involvement of Mystra). |
| Knight of the Gate |
Posted - 21 May 2009 : 06:41:40
quote:
Originally posted by Herkles
A question, in a city where Selvetarm's worship is allowed, what type of position would they have in a Lolthlite city. How would followers of Selvetarm be treated?
IMO, the worshippers of Selvetarm form the backbone of the temple defenders (read: Divine Champions of Lolth). I would imagine that they are led by female Fighter/Cleric officers (since males can't counted on to think, for the Spider Queen's sake!) and be foaming-at-the-mouth loyal and motivated. IMO, this is the highest on the food-chain that most commoner males can get. It's probably seen as a good social 'stepping stone' for commoner males, whereas noble males either become house weapons-masters or mages. I can see particularly skilled and intelligent Templars of Selvetarm being taken as bed-warmers by priestesses, which is a HUGE social 'promotion' for a commoner male, and generally being given a fair amount of status in society for their 'holy' efforts.
This actually plays into the question about how common drow can become ennobled: I imagine that if a commoner provides exemplary service and shows profound loyalty to an established noble house, (or, perhaps has a vendetta against one of the 'sponsoring' House's rivals) that an existing noble House might sponsor the commoner to the 'peerage'. The benefit to the sponsoring house is that, given that the newly minted noble owes his increased social status to House X, they can reasonably expect (given proper safeguards and taking a care to ensure the new House's continued dependence upon the sponsoring House) a certain amount of loyalty from that house, and if all goes well, in a century or two, they might have a viable ally.
The OTHER way (far rarer) that I can see commoners being ennobled is by direct deific fiat: I.e., a yochlol comes to a high priestess and informs her that this or that house is to be ennobled- I can see the Queen of the Demonweb Pits doing this 1) because the new house is particularly devout or 2) Lolth just wants to throw a monkey wrench into the city in question, and knows that the Matron Mothers of the existing Houses will fly into a tizzy wondering what to do with the upstarts... after all, eradicating the people your tyrranical and notoriously temperamental goddess just showed favor to is probably a no-no, and she's never been shy about showing her displeasure before.
All in all, just some thoughts of mine... none of this is canon, so I point out (as always) that I am no sage (nor Sage, for that matter). |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 21 May 2009 : 05:11:44
quote:
Originally posted by sfdragon
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I'd imagine that things aren't quite so cut-throat among commoners as they are among nobles. Everyone is jockeying for position, sure, but there's going to be less good positions to go around for commoners.
Not only that, but taking out pregnant females is threatening the future of the drow race. I'd imagine that there's some dictate from Lolth that limits attacks against expectant mothers.
commoners against commoners maybe.
commoner against noble? or vice versa.
personal slights would still end up in blood more or less.
guess we'd have to ask Mr. Greenwood on this.
Personal slights and such would still end up in blood, but again, how much opportunity are commoners going to have to do this kind of thing? The entire society can't be running around constantly killing each other -- it would very quickly collapse, if that was the case.
And how often will commoners have the chance to act against nobles? |
| sfdragon |
Posted - 21 May 2009 : 04:46:18
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I'd imagine that things aren't quite so cut-throat among commoners as they are among nobles. Everyone is jockeying for position, sure, but there's going to be less good positions to go around for commoners.
Not only that, but taking out pregnant females is threatening the future of the drow race. I'd imagine that there's some dictate from Lolth that limits attacks against expectant mothers.
commoners against commoners maybe.
commoner against noble? or vice versa.
personal slights would still end up in blood more or less.
guess we'd have to ask Mr. Greenwood on this. |
| Herkles |
Posted - 21 May 2009 : 00:15:26
This is not cannon but from the tome of drow lore, it has this paragraph on drow pregnancy and birth. It has my idea that a pregnant female, regardless of status is considered to have "Lolth's" blessings and attacking her might bring her wrath upon the attacker.
"A pregnant drow is the safest drow in the world. Without exception, attacking or injuring a pregnant female is forbidden in drow societies and most temples will offer sanctuary to any pregnant female who requests it. A drow carrying a child is not completely safe, of course. Her enemies or those of her House may still try to strike at her, but they will certainly be much more careful in doing so and many decide it is easier to simply wait until she delivers the child before moving against the currently-pregnant drow.
Childbirth is relatively easy for drow, as for all elves, but is not without its dangers. For the wealthy drow, there is ready access to priests from the temples and the healing magic they can provide, but for the poor at the bottom levels of society, there is no such help. Still, it is rare that a drow woman dies in childbirth."
source: Tome of drow lore by mongoose publishing. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 21 May 2009 : 00:04:29
I'd imagine that things aren't quite so cut-throat among commoners as they are among nobles. Everyone is jockeying for position, sure, but there's going to be less good positions to go around for commoners.
Not only that, but taking out pregnant females is threatening the future of the drow race. I'd imagine that there's some dictate from Lolth that limits attacks against expectant mothers. |
| sfdragon |
Posted - 20 May 2009 : 23:34:25
the geas spell/ritual.
and that would be the house weaponmaster or the patriarch.
and that means nothing, the first born daughter of noble house could pay weaponmaster or patriarch to kill pregnat matron mother.
or the second daughter against the 1rst, and 3rd and so on.
in drow society, everybody is an assassin.
-trust is for the foolish and the dead. Viconia D'vir |
| Ozzalum |
Posted - 20 May 2009 : 17:34:43
True enough, but what if some enterprising enchanter came up with a spell to allow binding contracts? Surely the Drow are capable of seeing the benefits of having true allies, even if only for a time.
So, for instance, that pregnant drow could have a binding contract with someone to defend her for the duration of pregnancy, and she wouldn't have to worry about her protector getting a better offer. Just a thought. |
| sfdragon |
Posted - 20 May 2009 : 17:16:21
unfortunately, trust has no definition amongst the drow.
its not, I'll wash your back if you wash mine, its watche your own back |
| Ozzalum |
Posted - 20 May 2009 : 16:56:52
That's good to know. I had forgotten about the non-noble houses. I guess that could also allow for more mercenary house arrangements. Instead of merchants, they are swords for hire.
I'd like to explore being pregnant in Drow society a bit more. Does anyone have any ideas on how that would work for the common drow woman? How could she survive the process if she had any enemies?
On a related note, it seems to me that trust is a very valuable commodity in society. Imagine the resources being wasted on making sure you aren't being doublecrossed by your allies. Perhaps there would be a market for "contract mages" who could ensure that two parties could actually trust one another and work together for a common goal. |
| Herkles |
Posted - 20 May 2009 : 16:53:32
A question, in a city where Selvetarm's worship is allowed, what type of position would they have in a Lolthlite city. How would followers of Selvetarm be treated? |
| Zanan |
Posted - 19 May 2009 : 21:53:07
quote:
Originally posted by Ozzalum
Thanks, I was wondering if blood would really be a distinguishing characteristic and it sounds like the answer is... sort of.
What of a commoner founding a house? Is that even remotely plausible? Do new houses come into existence or is it a constant winnowing?
Most merchant houses and whatever guilds there are would be ruled by commoners. You see, about 10% of drow soiety are made up from nobles, which leaves plenty of opportunity for the rest.
The Highborn Drow feat was kind of retconning the old abilities back into the people, whereas the lesser drow (tiefling et al) thing was something to ease the pain for e.g. Drizzt-lovers when taking a cool-looking drow character on, but don't want to pay overly for it.* Not that there would be any difference in surface people behaviour towards any sort of drow, of course.
*Yeah, there's a touch of sarcasm in here. |
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