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Ozzalum
Learned Scribe
USA
277 Posts |
 Posted - 03 May 2009 : 00:34:45
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I've noted, from my admittedly somewhat limited reading, that most all of the named Drow fighters are male? Drizzt takes on a few females here and there but it seems whenever a really tough fighter is being described, it's always a guy.
First off, is that a true characterization of things or have I misread?
Secondly, if that's the case, why? Females are bigger and stronger than males, and they can't all be priestesses, can they?
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Arion Elenim
Senior Scribe
933 Posts |
Posted - 03 May 2009 : 01:45:22
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As you said, most high-born female drow go into Arach Tinilith and become clerics. Though during Seige of Darkness we see a few female soldiers (as Menzo opens up pretty much its entire fighting force on the dwarves...).
And as far as the ladies being bigger and stronger, the clerics need that reach so their whips don't have to be as long. :D |
My latest Realms-based short story, about a bard, a paladin of Lathander and the letter of the law, Debts Repaid. It takes place before the "shattering" and gives the bard Arion a last gasp before he plunges into the present.http://candlekeep.com/campaign/logs/log-debts.htm |
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Ozzalum
Learned Scribe
USA
277 Posts |
Posted - 03 May 2009 : 02:03:10
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OK, so the way it goes is that if you are high-born, you end up a priestess, or if you are cursed as a male, you can become a fighter or a mage. I can accept that.
What about your standard "low born" drow? Have they been featured at all in novels? If you are born a female but not to a member of a ruling family, what are your options in Drow society? How many females in this category would chose a warrior lifestyle? |
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Ozzalum
Learned Scribe
USA
277 Posts |
Posted - 03 May 2009 : 02:04:58
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| And another somewhat related topic. Is the "generic" drow city set up the same as Menzo, where everyone trains at schools? Are female fighters, even if they are rare, trained in the same place as the males? |
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Hoondatha
Great Reader
USA
2449 Posts |
Posted - 03 May 2009 : 04:03:50
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Your perception is skewed somewhat, because most of the named drow characters in the Drizzt books, at least the early ones, are nobles of one sort or another. Almost all noble females go into the clergy. It's the most prestigious path, and the only way to become a Matron Mother. It's stated (by no less an authority than Gromphe) that most females do *not* have the minds to become wizards, which is probably the only reason males are allowed to study such a potentially dangerous path. Only a rare few noble females would become fighters, since it's not as prestigious, and their mothers (the Matrons) wouldn't want to lose such a potentially useful tool as a priestess daughter.
That among the nobles. We have much less information about drow commoners, since they are less interesting as therefore the stories focus away from them (pretty much the same problem we have with real life commoners for all ancient periods). However, Menzo is a city of twenty or thirty thousand, and the graduating class at the Academy numbered in the dozens. It's physically impossible for all the commoner females to attend the academy, even if it wasn't societally impossible (after all, who would then wait on you hand and foot if every female was a priestess waiting to stab you in the back?).
My feeling is that some exceptional commoner females become priestesses, but they're a rarity. Most would become fighters, if anything, and many would learn a craft or trade instead.
As for other cities, well, Menzo is the smallest drow city recorded. Others are many times its size. Again, it would be impossible for a city the size of, say, Erindlyn (much less Gualidurth) to train everyone in one school. So I'd say it's likely that the bigger cities have multiple schools, at the very least for fighters and likely for wizards and priestesses as well. In bigger cities you're also more likely to get "home schooling," where the kids (especially commoner kids, aka: cannon fodder) would just get trained by the house weapon master. |
Doggedly converting 3e back to what D&D should be...
Sigh... And now 4e as well. |
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Zanan
Senior Scribe
Germany
942 Posts |
Posted - 03 May 2009 : 10:46:32
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My impressions of life in a Lolthite drow city:
There is obviously some more flair to it than just the default (MM) description about males and female roles in drow society. Demihuman Deities as well as The Drow of the Underdark are good options to look deeper into drow society beyond this default info. Furthermore, the Menzoberranzan box gives you a few hints about the militaristic system and the hierarchy of that place.
Females rule the roost, especially (but not solely) if they are noble. Do keep in mind that only a fraction of drow of a city are noble drow, yet many more may belong to a noble house. Amongst the "commoners" females are still of a somewhat higher status, because of them being favoured by the goddess. That does not mean that each and every female can order each and every male about. For "power" is also in high regard among the drow.
As for females, the noble ones are expected to become priestesses, or if that fails for whatever reason, arcane casters or elite fighters. Some, as e.g. the mother of Liriel Baenre, are just not interested in somesuch and may simply stroll along the "e.g." aristocrat way of life. Amongst the non-noble folk, the best way to gain power is to get into the priesthood too (nothing stops them from doing so, bar rival noble females perhaps), show some arcane talent or join up with the fighters. Speaking of the latter, it should be noted that the priesthood of Lolth is probably amongst the most-warlike in all Faerūn, since they are constantly fighting off perils of the Underdark, perils in their own city (inter House wars) and the competition amongst one another.
Just prior to the war on Mithral Hall, the Menzoberranzan box tells us that House Baenre had an elite force of female drow (priestess body and temple guards). These elite drow start at level 3 (fighters) and those of level 9 (guard captains) are listed too. Baenre house troops then consisted of (amongst others!) 350 elite female soldiers (normal elite foot, levels 3 to 6, their patrol leaders level 7+; archers male & female normal 2 to 5, leaders up to 7th (all above go to elite foot or command staff) ) and you got an impression of their abilities when Drizzt had to fight a few of them off to get to the Baenre priestesses in Siege of Darkness.
Females are also common as Fighter/Clerics leading bazaar patrols, listed as F6/P6 (i.e. AD&D Fighter 6 / Priestess 6) or even F7/P8.
Methinks that Underdark mentions that Blackguards are quite common amongst the drow too and one could assume that they and the Spiderswords of Selvetarm make up the bulk of those bodyguards, who where listed as F/Ps in AD&D. Another option could be the Pious Templars of Complete Divine. I for one would ignore the downsizing/-tuning of the NPC's class levels in 3E here.
All that is said with Lolthite cities like Menzoberranzan in mind. It is actually quite feasible that females would strife for power in non-divine classes in places which are dominated by other faiths, or, for that matter, by no faith at all (Sshamath). That said, females could equally well become powerful arcane casters or sneaky killers all along. |
Cave quid dicis, quando et cui!
Gęš a wyrd swa hio scel!
In memory of Alura Durshavin.
Visit my "Homepage" to find A Guide to the Drow NPCs of Faerūn, Drow and non-Drow PrC and much more. |
Edited by - Zanan on 03 May 2009 10:51:18 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 03 May 2009 : 17:12:54
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Female of any talent become Priestesses - the rest become fighters. A very minute cross-section become Mages (like Liriel - and you'll recall how that was frowned upon).
Males with any talent become Mages, and the rest become Fighters. Those with absolutely no skills for either (from a Drow's perspective) wind-up as merchants, craftsman, and such (manual labor is always done by slaves).
This leads to a situation of more male fighters then female, but there is still a decent number of female fighters in Drow society (those that were not 'good enough' to serve Lolth).
The reason why you rarely see Drizzt fight woman is because it is a novel, and a guy beating-up on a woman isn't very cool... and Drizzt is all about 'the kewl'. 
Writers will only place a male hero in that position for story purposes, as was the case when Drizzt had to fight that female Elf that blamed him for her parent's deaths. It makes the confrontation more poinant.
And yes, that is a very sexist attitude, and doesn't really belong in FR, but the novels are read by people in the RW, so they must conform to our sensibilities. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 07 May 2009 18:22:35 |
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Ozzalum
Learned Scribe
USA
277 Posts |
Posted - 03 May 2009 : 19:23:00
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Thanks for the voluminous feedback. The feel I'm getting here is that you would expect in a given noble house to find a core of elite female fighters, (and elite fighters to be), that would consist primarily of commoners associated with a particular noble house.
So if I wanted to create a female fighter for a campaign/story, that would be a reasonable background for her? If I wanted to go with a noble, she would have to be described as either complete inept at the clerical arts (low wisdom) or else truly opposed to Lolth, presumably secretly.
As for Drizzt fighting female drow, he does so a few times. I think he fought 2 or 3 at once in Starless Night as well. I think Salvatore and the authors of WotSQ tried to present "realistic" scenarios but the default for the generic sword wielding opponent still seemed to a male. I just felt that Drow in particular would lend themselves to physically powerful female fighters that might not be found in other elven or human societies in such great numbers.
EDIT: On the topic of where a generic female fighter would be trained. Would most of them be trained within a noble house as opposed to the interhouse academy? Is it purely a matter of nobility? |
Edited by - Ozzalum on 03 May 2009 19:59:50 |
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Arion Elenim
Senior Scribe
933 Posts |
Posted - 04 May 2009 : 04:39:12
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Low-born drow become merchants, guides, servants, laborers, etc, just like in surface societies. And if they have any kind of warrioring aptitude, they can also become soldiers in the varying houses (nobles aren't cannon fodder).
And I'm pretty sure that the female fighter gets to go to good ol Melee Magthere. But I'd imagine she'd be lucky to come out alive (so many opportunites for male drow to take out some agression on the females of their own houses). So, the end result is a bad*ss warrior, assuming she gets out. |
My latest Realms-based short story, about a bard, a paladin of Lathander and the letter of the law, Debts Repaid. It takes place before the "shattering" and gives the bard Arion a last gasp before he plunges into the present.http://candlekeep.com/campaign/logs/log-debts.htm |
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sfdragon
Great Reader
2285 Posts |
Posted - 04 May 2009 : 08:24:52
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that is assuming she goes and doesnt stay at home for home schooling from the weapon master and every other male warrior.
a female drow fighter in meelee magthere, kill her, nah be better just to humiliate her. |
why is being a wizard like being a drow? both are likely to find a dagger in the back from a rival or one looking to further his own goals, fame and power
My FR fan fiction
Magister's GAmbit
http://steelfiredragon.deviantart.com/gallery/33539234 |
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Ozzalum
Learned Scribe
USA
277 Posts |
Posted - 04 May 2009 : 12:12:47
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Thanks for all the responses, this has really been an enlightening discussion. Especially the hard numbers from Zanan, thanks.
I was thinking about it this way. Picking at random, let's say it's 19th century America and it is basically impossible for a women to rise in power as a politician, or enter powerful professions such as lawyer, doctor, and what have you. Only men could vote and they generally ran their households and required deference from the women in society. Were the Army ranks filled with women? No, because men are bigger and stronger and more likely to have the temperament to become soldiers and fight. So why would it be different in Drow society? What house is going to prefer to use weak males while stout females are around?
And yes, the parallel between Drow society and 19th century America is perfect and unassailable. You will break upon the walls of my logic.  |
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Zanan
Senior Scribe
Germany
942 Posts |
Posted - 04 May 2009 : 13:55:37
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| Ozzalum ... that "social behaviour" was common nigh all over Europe for hundreds of years before "19th century America". Do note that the "stronger females" - stuff was and is largely flair. At the beginning of D&D 3E - i.e. 3.0E - they actually marked these differences between the genders of the drow in hard stats, but that was tamed to the AD&D proportions in 3,5E. Essentially, drow females are somewhat taller and somewhat "heavier" than males, but this does not reflect in stats of game importance. I for one would not lay to much emphasis on this either. It is not like an amazon society or something alike. More like amazon women among other "normal" men. Aeons of female and matriarchical supremacy in all parts of society have simply shaped their roles of "natural leaders". This does not say that drow males by default "need" to be inferior or cannot get into powerful positions. They simply take their roles, while the females take theirs. An important aspect always remains "personal power". |
Cave quid dicis, quando et cui!
Gęš a wyrd swa hio scel!
In memory of Alura Durshavin.
Visit my "Homepage" to find A Guide to the Drow NPCs of Faerūn, Drow and non-Drow PrC and much more. |
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Ozzalum
Learned Scribe
USA
277 Posts |
Posted - 04 May 2009 : 14:31:27
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Zanan, I just like to keep social commentary close to home.
I like your concept of amazon women among normal men. I never really understood how the selection process for the Drow could actually lead to weak males. Still, I think I will go ahead and emphasize that the warrior women are truly strong and not sort of relegated to "small and agile" or "amazing with a bow" archetypes. |
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Ranak
Learned Scribe
USA
190 Posts |
Posted - 04 May 2009 : 14:59:24
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I imagine that after Lolth's silence many Drow females left the faith as it were and pursued other avenues, including the path of the fighter.
There was never really any examination as to how that event effected Drow culture, other than the fall of a few cities. The Lady Penitent series made some massive changes to theology, but again the effect on the social structure was never explored. I can't fathom things remaining the same after such upheavals.
quote:
Originally posted by Ozzalum
Zanan, I just like to keep social commentary close to home.
I like your concept of amazon women among normal men. I never really understood how the selection process for the Drow could actually lead to weak males. Still, I think I will go ahead and emphasize that the warrior women are truly strong and not sort of relegated to "small and agile" or "amazing with a bow" archetypes.
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Zanan
Senior Scribe
Germany
942 Posts |
Posted - 04 May 2009 : 15:09:24
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| The Lady Penitent series left many open white spaces within drow culture. Furthermore, do note that other societies of drow, i.e. those of other faiths or those who do not care about faith that much will work slightly - if not much - differently. As I said, taking the default comments on drow society with the proverbial pinch of salt and adding a bit more flair and substance to it will go a long way to have a good drow adventure ... or opponents. |
Cave quid dicis, quando et cui!
Gęš a wyrd swa hio scel!
In memory of Alura Durshavin.
Visit my "Homepage" to find A Guide to the Drow NPCs of Faerūn, Drow and non-Drow PrC and much more. |
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Nerfed2Hell
Senior Scribe
USA
387 Posts |
Posted - 04 May 2009 : 22:41:37
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I treat drow as any other culture, having need of various professions and classes beyond simply priest (female), fighter or wizard (male). I use those as guidelines for the high end of drow achievements...
...there are drow aristocrats, commoners (even females), experts, and warriors in my drow cities. There are also bards (not many but enough), druids (subterranean evil druids, but druids nonetheless), fighters, rangers, rogues, and sorcerers (as well as a good mix of non-standard official classes) in my Underdark. If the underdark was filled with nothing but female clerics, male wizards and fighters, I think it'd be pretty boring. |
Some people are like a slinky... not good for much, but when you push them down the stairs, it makes you smile. |
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BEAST
Master of Realmslore
USA
1714 Posts |
Posted - 05 May 2009 : 08:23:31
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In Homeland (P1:C4), Matron Malice is escorted by a squad of twenty House Baenre soldiers--all female--to go visit with Matron Baenre. We're told that the four corners of the defensive diamond were occupied by high priestesses, but the implication seems to be that the remaining sixteen personnel were female fighters. I presume they were commoners of the house.
Though we've never had wizard or cleric training curriculum broken down in as much detail as Drizzt's Melee-Magthere fighter training, it's possible that some ten-year segment of a cleric student's fifty years of training might actually take place within Melee-Magthere. Perhaps they have separate gender-segregated teachers, instruction, patrols, sleeping quarters, etc. That might explain why Drizzt did not discuss seeing any female fighter students during his stay at the school, and it would also help to protect the female students from resentful males. |
"'You don't know my history,' he said dryly."
--Drizzt Do'Urden (The Pirate King, Part 1: Chapter 2)
<"Comprehensive Chronology of R.A. Salvatore Forgotten Realms Works"> |
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Ozzalum
Learned Scribe
USA
277 Posts |
Posted - 06 May 2009 : 00:19:43
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Good theories Beast. Apparent plot holes are really just opportunities for new lore. It doesn't make much sense to me that females would stoop to train with males. There are just too many opportunities for individual females to be shown as inferior, and by extension, create dangerous feelings of self-worth among the males.
To follow on with Ranak's post, do you think it is reasonable for a significant rebellion to take place during/after Lolth's silence? I would think at some point a critical mass of commoners and even nobles might wonder what exactly Lolth has done for them. For my purposes I imagine that the survivors of Ched Nasad might be particularly susceptible to this line of thinking.
If females are really not encouraged to become mages, and I think that is a pretty safe assumption, does it follow that there would be a number of sorceresses that gain their power naturally? Have Drow sorcerers been mentioned anywhere? |
Edited by - Ozzalum on 06 May 2009 00:27:03 |
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Zanan
Senior Scribe
Germany
942 Posts |
Posted - 06 May 2009 : 09:59:41
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It could well be that drow sorceresses are about. The Drow of the Underdark (3,5E) core book actually mentions drow (female) warlocks, who are held (more often than not) in high regard, as they are deemed to be in favour by the goddess, especially if they can trace their ancestry to yochlol demons.
Apart from warlocks, hexblade make good choices for drow warrrior-types. |
Cave quid dicis, quando et cui!
Gęš a wyrd swa hio scel!
In memory of Alura Durshavin.
Visit my "Homepage" to find A Guide to the Drow NPCs of Faerūn, Drow and non-Drow PrC and much more. |
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BEAST
Master of Realmslore
USA
1714 Posts |
Posted - 06 May 2009 : 17:26:54
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quote:
Originally posted by Ozzalum
To follow on with Ranak's post, do you think it is reasonable for a significant rebellion to take place during/after Lolth's silence? I would think at some point a critical mass of commoners and even nobles might wonder what exactly Lolth has done for them. For my purposes I imagine that the survivors of Ched Nasad might be particularly susceptible to this line of thinking.
I think that the potential for some sort of rebellion has always been there. Repression yields rebellion. The fact that so many different species of Menzoberranyr rebels banded together in just a few months after the advent of Lolth's Silence in "WOTSQ" would seem to bear this out.
Think back to the numerous slave uprisings during the American Colonial and early Constitutional eras.
And I would think that Lolth would love this situation, because it would keep her matrons on their toes, ever vigilant for the next fire needing to be put out. Gotta keep your people's skills fresh.
What I'm unsure of is whether any such rebellion could ever qualify as "significant" again, though. I haven't read "The Lady Penitent" series, so I don't know the immediate after-effects of the return of Lolth's powers, but with her priestesses once again wielding their dark magic and a whole slew of male (and female, I guess, now) fighters at their beck and call to carry out their will, most would-be rebellions would probably be put down rather easily.
Unless Lolth willed otherwise.
I only read "WOTSQ" once, and there are still some things about that series that I'm not clear on. One of the most important would be whether Lolth went through her ordeal because she absolutely had to, or simply as a matter of choice. If it were the latter, and given the inevitability of some sort of rebellion during her Silence, I would tend to think that she must've wanted some helter-skelter amongst her people. Maybe the joy of such chaos was a kind of epidural for her labor pains?
And perhaps the Spider Queen might desire a redux of such joy again some time--with or without the pain . . . |
"'You don't know my history,' he said dryly."
--Drizzt Do'Urden (The Pirate King, Part 1: Chapter 2)
<"Comprehensive Chronology of R.A. Salvatore Forgotten Realms Works"> |
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Knight of the Gate
Senior Scribe
USA
624 Posts |
Posted - 06 May 2009 : 18:15:12
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Aside from the femal clerics of Lolth, the clergy of Kiaransalee is predominantly (if not entirely) female. One of the things I like best about CotSQ was that the antagonist was a commoner female who rose above her status by joining the clergy of the White Banshee, then took advantage of the Silence to get her Revenge on. Although it's not explored too much, it strongly implies that *just* being female doesn't guarantee a life of ease or privilege amongst the drow.
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How can life be so bountiful, providing such sublime rewards for mediocrity? -Umberto Ecco |
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Ozzalum
Learned Scribe
USA
277 Posts |
Posted - 06 May 2009 : 20:51:13
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For such a proud race dedicated to their own individual strength, I find the Drow strangely complacent about being ruled by psychopaths. I mean, they can't even escape in death. Dying just leads to even worse horrors.
So would classes like fighter, thief, ranger, and sorcerer be considered "commoner" classes? I'm trying to conceive of what types of coalitions might form to either overthrow or escape from the domination of Lolth.
Since I have morphed this into a generic Drow thread, here's an unrelated question. Do fighters/guards that are tasked with protecting nobles generally get to keep their full mental freedom? Are they compelled in any way to maintain their loyalty?
Speculation is welcome, of course. I'm not just looking for canon answers.
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Five_X
Acolyte
12 Posts |
Posted - 07 May 2009 : 02:00:16
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My guess is that female drow are clerics unless they show major ineptitude in clerical abilities (like writing and typing ).
For example, I once made a drow PC that was a terrible cleric, but a great melee fighter/bard, and came up with a fairly interesting backstory that I am too lazy to retype here. She was a dragon disciple, I believe.
Also, I seem to recall something in Homeland, or one of the other Drizzt books saying that the more priestesses a House has, the more... intimidating(?) they are. So priestesses are used as a status symbol as well, I guess you can't have too many clerics. |
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Knight of the Gate
Senior Scribe
USA
624 Posts |
Posted - 07 May 2009 : 07:26:12
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quote:
Originally posted by Ozzalum
For such a proud race dedicated to their own individual strength, I find the Drow strangely complacent about being ruled by psychopaths. I mean, they can't even escape in death. Dying just leads to even worse horrors.
But *within* that societal farmework, the thing which is most respected is power. If you have it, you can do as you like despite your apparent social atanding... being 'just' a common soldier you are still several orders of magnitude more valuable to -and thus have more access to- those in power than a common merchant or artisan. The ends, in such a society, justify the means.
So would classes like fighter, thief, ranger, and sorcerer be considered "commoner" classes? I'm trying to conceive of what types of coalitions might form to either overthrow or escape from the domination of Lolth.
The 'common' class is Commoner... one step up are artisans/merchants... mostly Experts. While commoner Drow dont do menial labor (that's what slaves are for) they DO support the society by either making goods, selling/transporting those goods to other places/races, serving in the armies of the Great Houses, or by overseeing slaves.
Since I have morphed this into a generic Drow thread, here's an unrelated question. Do fighters/guards that are tasked with protecting nobles generally get to keep their full mental freedom? Are they compelled in any way to maintain their loyalty?
That would seem to depend upon the noble involved. Some might rely upon training and indoctrination to keep their underlngs in line, while others might resort to magical compulsion or other, more mundane means of compelling loyalty.
Speculation is welcome, of course. I'm not just looking for canon answers.
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How can life be so bountiful, providing such sublime rewards for mediocrity? -Umberto Ecco |
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BEAST
Master of Realmslore
USA
1714 Posts |
Posted - 07 May 2009 : 08:07:15
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quote:
Originally posted by Ozzalum
Do fighters/guards that are tasked with protecting nobles generally get to keep their full mental freedom? Are they compelled in any way to maintain their loyalty?
I recall Zak, Briza, Dinin, Vierna, Drizzt, and Malice all being concerned at various times about their irreverent thoughts on matron mothers potentially being sensed and thus getting themselves in trouble. Clerics have some sort of truth-telling abilities. I would presume that they would employ such often, to try to ensure that their household was trustworthy.
Those who resist get snake-whipped.
We were told several times that Zaknafein could not escape Menzo as Drizzt would eventually do, and that Zak was trapped in the city. I have speculated that he may have gotten himself in trouble in the past and actually been cursed to physically remain in the city forever. If this is true, then it's possible that Matron Malice might've had some additional capacity to force him to comply with her will, as well.
In Drizzt's Blooding scene, Matron Malice magically coerces Drizzt to kill a goblin-slave-turned-drow. She threatened him when he resisted her call to strike his sister Maya, as well, but he complied without being forced a second time.
Then there is always the zombie fighter fodder, which is of course completely compelled to do the priestesses' bidding!  |
"'You don't know my history,' he said dryly."
--Drizzt Do'Urden (The Pirate King, Part 1: Chapter 2)
<"Comprehensive Chronology of R.A. Salvatore Forgotten Realms Works"> |
Edited by - BEAST on 07 May 2009 08:10:16 |
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Zanan
Senior Scribe
Germany
942 Posts |
Posted - 07 May 2009 : 09:14:10
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quote:
Originally posted by Ozzalum
For such a proud race dedicated to their own individual strength, I find the Drow strangely complacent about being ruled by psychopaths. I mean, they can't even escape in death.
They aren't psychopaths. Just keep in mind that you usually only get portraits of a very limited set of drow females in the books, namely those of House Baenre and do'Urden. Unless I am mistaken, neither really behaved like psychopaths (CE does not mean that, BTW, else e.g. drow society would not have survived for thousands of years) - even though they stroke out at their own at opportune moments occasionally. The Menzoberranzan box goes a long way clearing this, as it gives you all sorts of personalities, be they House Matrons or adventure NPCs. Back in 1992! And don't get fooled by the CE alignment given in the box, as that was the default (unchangable) alignment back then. Demihuman Deities gives you alternatives, ranging from CN to CE for clerics, and LN to CE for "simple" worshippers.
As I said above, it is expected of noble drow females to become priestesses, or, if that's not in their blood, at least wizards. Nobles make up less than 10% of drow society though and while non-noble* females going for power strife to become priestesses too, they are not exactly deemed failures if they don't. In the end, as I said, power is a strong component here and if a female rises to it by other means than divine classes, she is not deemed a failure by anyone (but more powerful priestesses, of course).
The natural way for males to rise to lasting power in Lolthite drow cities is that of the arcane arts. Followed by the weapon master job.
That is the way it is and has been essentially inbred for thousands of years. From our perspective, especially a male dominated one, it does not need to make "much sense" nor is their need to look for changes. For the latter would make the Lolthite drow as unbelievable as the Drizzt figure is. If you look for something "different", check out the non-Lolthite places.
The clergy of Kiaransalee is female only, the only faith of the evil drow deities who had such a limitation pre 3E, BTW. Vhaeraun's faiths was de jure open to all, but de facto male only; while Lolth did accept males, but limited their "influence" with a "7 level - cap".
*Please do keep in mind that non-noble does not necessarily mean "peasant" or "commoner". Non-noble could also be attributed to powerful merchant clans, mercenary guilds, fighter societies ... you name it. |
Cave quid dicis, quando et cui!
Gęš a wyrd swa hio scel!
In memory of Alura Durshavin.
Visit my "Homepage" to find A Guide to the Drow NPCs of Faerūn, Drow and non-Drow PrC and much more. |
Edited by - Zanan on 07 May 2009 09:32:41 |
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Ozzalum
Learned Scribe
USA
277 Posts |
Posted - 07 May 2009 : 12:35:51
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Well, I don't think Drow nobles consider themselves psychopaths, or sociopaths or whatever the correct term is these days, but they sure seem to fit the general description: amoral, aggressive, remorseless, lacking empathy.
It seems I should really get my hands on the Menzoberranzan box set.
I think you would agree that the Drow can't be nearly as violent or murderous as they are depicted in the novels or else there would be no Drow society. You can't kill that many people before they can have kids and still have people left.
However, as to the possibility that some Drow would look to change their society, why wouldn't that make sense? I don't mean a bill of rights and all that sort of thing, but just a reordering without a vicious spider-goddess at the very top. Correct me if I'm wrong but the typical Drow life consists of striving for power, occasionally killing rivals, fearing your rivals blade, never truly trusting anyone, until ultimately you are killed. And then, after death, you end up in a spider-themed hell. It's enough to make a guy angsty.
If Lolth were some sort of consistent protector of her followers, it would be one thing. But she just disappears sometimes and lets their cities get burned. When she comes back, all you are going to get is a trite response about how you weren't strong enough. "Thanks, that really makes me feel better about losing my kids."
Now I know I sound like I am bashing the Drow as unrealistic or whatever, but I am only doing this because I know you folks will have a good response that will clarify things for me. Think of it as a devil's advocate kind of deal. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 07 May 2009 : 18:27:39
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quote:
Originally posted by Arion Elenim
And I'm pretty sure that the female fighter gets to go to good ol Melee Magthere. But I'd imagine she'd be lucky to come out alive (so many opportunites for male drow to take out some agression on the females of their own houses). So, the end result is a bad*ss warrior, assuming she gets out.
Excellent Point.
This is another very good reason why Female Drow fighters are rarer... and yet usually superior then the males when encountered. A veritable 'batism of fire', if you will. Whatever doesn't kill them just makes them stronger (That phrase probably originated with the Drow ).
Hmmmmm... maybe Darwin was a Drow...  |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 07 May 2009 18:28:24 |
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Ozzalum
Learned Scribe
USA
277 Posts |
Posted - 07 May 2009 : 19:17:26
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Don't you think it is more likely that male and female fighters would be trained separately so as not to give the males any ideas about whether they are really inferior to the females?
I like your concept on things but it seems so wasteful of good female talent. IF just one house treated their minions like valuable assets, they'd likely rule any given city in a generation or two. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36798 Posts |
Posted - 08 May 2009 : 03:19:51
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quote:
Originally posted by Ozzalum
I like your concept on things but it seems so wasteful of good female talent. IF just one house treated their minions like valuable assets, they'd likely rule any given city in a generation or two.
True... But that encourages your minions to try to excel, and to therefore get ambitious... And ambitious, talented underlings are not what you want around if you're in a society that encourages upwards mobility at any cost and your butt is the one in the throne. |
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Zanan
Senior Scribe
Germany
942 Posts |
Posted - 08 May 2009 : 09:22:45
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| On a sidenote, in the Pathfinder setting drow society has a similar outlook as in D&D, but less dominated by just one faith. Furthermore, there are so called Fighter Societies (remember those of Ust-Natha in BG II?) and once a drow joins up, s/he can forfeit membership of his/her House and become a member of the society instead, which, much like the French Foreign Legion (Legion Etrangere (sp?) makes sure that no harm comes to the "renegade". (That's how I read it.) These Fighter Society work much like mercenary troops. |
Cave quid dicis, quando et cui!
Gęš a wyrd swa hio scel!
In memory of Alura Durshavin.
Visit my "Homepage" to find A Guide to the Drow NPCs of Faerūn, Drow and non-Drow PrC and much more. |
Edited by - Zanan on 08 May 2009 09:23:42 |
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Fighting Female Drow
