quote:

---

Paladins of Ilmater

Ilmater, the Crying God, is the deity of perseverance and martyrdom. He encourages his followers to comfort the suffering and take the pain of others upon themselves. The paladins in Ilmater's service are especially dedicated to helping the helpless and giving hope to the hopeless. While paladins of Tyr or Helm might be more interested in upholding law and order, Ilmatari focus on treating the wounds of those harmed by evil and preventing atrocities.

The church of Ilmater is famous and well-liked for its charity work, and it's also something many paladins choose to focus on. Ilmater tells his worshipers to emphasize the spiritual aspect of life over the material, and excessive wealth is considered inappropriate for Ilmatari. A paladin of Ilmater should therefore generally donate to charity any extra funds left after acquiring medicine and equipping himself properly to serve his god and cause. The church of Ilmater, independent orphanages and hospitals, or the temples of other goodly deities are good targets for their donations. While Imatari paladins don't always take an absolute oath of poverty, it's commonly agreed that riches are not something for them to have.

Many people misunderstand Ilmatari and their devotion to endure suffering so that others wouldn't have to. The church is often seen as weak and foolhardy, but this couldn't be father from the truth. Ilmater tells his followers to stand up to any injustice and tolerate no tyranny. While his paladins would prefer to tend to the sick and poor, they are also the ones who step up to challenge evil when no others dare – even if it means certain defeat. Ilmatari believe that there is no shame in a meaningful death and are more inclined to martyrdom and self-sacrifice than other paladins. On the other hand, life is sacred to them and they will not charge to pointless death when there's nothing to be gained.

While Tormtar paladins will specifically strike evil so that it hurts, Ilmatari are strongly opposed to any unnecessary suffering. A Tyrran paladin might accept some level of torture as a just punishment for crimes if that was the local legal system, but an Ilmatari will never approve of any kind of torture. Their respect for life usually makes them oppose executions, but they might have to accept it as part of a realm's law. They are no pacifists, however: they fill fight and kill furiously on the battlefield when faced with tyrants, torturers and other horrible wrong-doers.

There are two paladin orders serving Ilmater's church. The more militant of the two are the Companions of the Noble Heart. The Companions are heroes who aggressively fight those who advocate cruelty and suffering, especially followers of Talona and Loviatar. It's not unknown for them to attack a Loviatan shrine, kill every worshiper inside and then tear the place to the ground.

The more peaceful group is the Order of the Golden Cup. They are closer to the traditional image of Ilmatari, tending to the weak and protecting them, rather than looking for evil to vanquish. They won't hesitate to confront evil when necessary, but it's not their role to go on campaigns against atrocities. Rather, they choose to stay with the people and soothe their hurts. You might find a member of the Golden Cup distributing medicine to children or protecting a village so that the tyrant from the nearby village won't gain influence there while the Companions of the Noble Heart ride to war against the tyrant.

---

quote:

---

g. Worldview is one of moral absolutes – Good vs. Evil (RoF p88) (PGtF p16)
h. No compromise with evil even for the greater good (RoF p88) (Rite p229)

---

quote:

---

D. Politics/Laws
1. Government became a monarchy in 1075 [founder Feldrin Bloodfeather’s bloodline traced back to Sembia] (FRCS p106) (RoF p89) (FR9 p21)
a. The Church of the state is Ilmater (RoF p91)
b. Paladins of Ilmater are frequent occupants of the throne (RoF p91)

---

quote:

---

8. Class divisions less notable than in anywhere on Faerun, other than Royalty and the Court and Paladins and knights being referred to as “Sir” or “Milord” (RoF p90) (Rite)
9. Morally unfit are shunned, No compromise with evil even for the greater good (RoF p88,90) (Rite p229)
10. City-dwellers educated in church-run schools (RoF p90)
11. Damaran Army led by Paladins of Ilmater (FRCS p107)

---

quote:

---

H. Dieties/Temples
1. Ilmater (FRCS p23,106,242) (RoF p91) (Rite p225,327) (GTotR p117) (DDaD p7,8,12) (CoV p140-141)
a. Order of the Golden Cup [highest order of Ilmateri paladins] [fortress in the Damaran Gate] (FR9 p24) (FRCS p107) (DDaD p8) (CoV p42-43,103)
b. Monks of the Yellow Rose/ Monastery of the Yellow Rose (FRCS p107) (FR9 p41,46,50) (DDaD p7) (CoV p20,24-25,92,103)
c. The Church of Ilmater dominates Damara (RoF p91) (Rite p225) (Rage p218) (GTotR p117)
d. Churches of Ilmater often dedicated to one of his saints
e. St. Sollars the twice-martyred prominent saint of Ilmater in Damara [symbol is the Yellow Rose] (RoF p91) (FR9 p23) (H4 p30,80,82) (GTotR p117) (DDaD p7)
f. St. Dionysus is also honored in Damara and a huge cathedral dedicated to the saint is being built in Goliad at a cost of over a million gold pieces [funded from gems and gold plundered by Friar Dugald from the horde of Tiamat] (FR9 p23,27,37-38,49)
g. The vanguard of the King and Queen are all paladins or clerics of Ilmater (Rite p225)
h. Sacred animals are white doves, white donkeys, sparrows, and field mice (DDaD p12)
i. Sacred flowers are daisies and white roses (DDaD p12)
j. Sacred beings are devas, planetars, and solars (DDaD p12)
k. Sacred colors are gray and red (DDaD p12)
j. The Weeping Garden (CoV p140-141)

---

quote:

---

I. Classes
1. Paladins [Ilmater] (FRCS p25, 107) (RoF p90) (H3 p10) (DDaD p8) (CoV p42-43,103)
a. Army led by Paladins of Ilmater (FRCS p107)
b. Order of the Golden Cup [highest order of Ilmateri paladins in Damara] (FRCS p107) (DDaD p8) substitution level (CoV p42-43,103)
c. More tolerant of ‘common folk’ than paladins elsewhere in Faerun (FR9 p24)
d. Can multicalss as clerics, divine disciples, or hierophants (DDaD p8)
e. This order is dedicated to healing and protecting the sick, innocent, and weak, rather than seeking out evil to destroy. They are not opposed to such actions, but see their role as something different. (DDaD p8)

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by HawkinstheDM

Maybe this will be something that you guys will have more power over in the CK 2.0 forums. Sorry for my misunderstanding of the situation.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

quote:

---

Originally posted by HawkinstheDM

quote:

---

Originally posted by The Sage

Fellow scribes, we seem to be moving away from the original topic of discussion for this scroll. Please get back on track.

---

Dearest Sage, I would like to point out that above someone asked that the off-topic posts be moved to a new thread.

---

At the moment, we do not have the ability to move individual posts -- we can only copy them into a new spot.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by HawkinstheDM

quote:

---

Originally posted by The Sage

Fellow scribes, we seem to be moving away from the original topic of discussion for this scroll. Please get back on track.

---

Dearest Sage, I would like to point out that above someone asked that the off-topic posts be moved to a new thread.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by The Sage

Fellow scribes, we seem to be moving away from the original topic of discussion for this scroll. Please get back on track.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Arravis

My current FR campaign is set in the Bloodstone Lands (in 1378 DR); and I'm having some difficulties in understanding the ethics and morals of a paladin of Ilmater.

In reading all the lore I can find out there, its clear that Ilmater approves of violence under some circumstances... but the stipulations and justifications are so narrow as to be exceedingly rare. So rare, that what would be considered "standard" paladin behavior would probably be right out. I don't have a problem with this, I'm just wanting to understand where things stand, especially by the Ilmatari church in Damara.

Any time I've convinced myself that "just" violence in the name of the suffering or oppressed would be condoned, I re-read the info and I go right back. Sure, if the morality of the situation is crystal clear and you are only lessening suffering by it, it works; but add any kind of fuzziness to it, it falls apart quickly.

My campaign is set in a frontier town in Vaasa (much like a abandoned Deadwood); and situations therein are never clear. Everyone is a victim, everyone is a oppressor. Even the goblins and orcs are just scrapping by, everyone is just doing what they can to survive. If starving orcs attack the town; what does a paladin of Ilmater do? What if its starving brigands, or starving farmers from the next village over (when you barely have enough to feed your own people)?

Any advice would be much appreciated... thanks guys!

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Knight of the Gate

quote:

---

Originally posted by rjfras

Sorry for taking this away from Ilmater a bit, but I just had to say something about Eldath and it could apply to Ilmater a bit too as far as protecting people.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Knight of the Gate

quote:

---

Originally posted by Arravis

Interesting take... but that would seem more in order with the clergy than paladins. I'll give it some thought.
My questions on the topic aren't for my own character; I'm the DM :). I'm trying to figure out the role the church of Ilmater in Damara would expect of their paladins. Perhaps what sort of strictures and expectations they would have of their duties. The paladin in the party may very well stand trial one day for her actions; actions that would be considered standard for paladins of other faiths.

-Arravis

---

Another thought: Another (IMO) ignored aspect of Paladinhood is this- we think of Pallies as Holy Warriors...and then put all the emphasis on the Holy and tend to ignore the Warrior. Faiths that support Paladins do so because they see a world in which being shocked and sad isn't going to always be enough: IMO, these faiths understand that while high moral ideals are the core of the faith, sometimes, you just need bigger guns and better men. This is why (for instance) Eldath doesn't have Holy Warriors- they don't agree with the above statement, and would rather be killed themselves than 'contribute to evil' (as they see it) by fighting back.
Again, I know it's a tad off-topic, but this is a subject to which I've given some thought. Hope it helps.

---

Why do people keep saying this or things along this line about followers of Eldath? I mean if you read the entries on her, you can see that her followers will fight and will kill, they just try other things first, but to think that they just stand there and let themselves be killed is ridiculous as there soon would be no more followers...

From the Dogma in Faiths & Avatars: They may defend but not punish. Eldathyn may work violence only to defend, and they may slay no thing of the forest save to prevent it from slaying themselves or another under their protection.

also from farther down in the dogma: They must swear to take no thinking life save in direst need

Her druids use weapons that are made for killing and not subduing like sickles, darts, spears, daggers and scimitars.

Her specialty priests can use weapons with restrictions which state: Peacemen and Peacewomen cannot fight, except to defend themselves and those with them. They may not initiate attacks, charges or ambushes. They are pacifists.

And while they may not always do the killing themselves when they are forced to kill in direct combat, they will do stuff to get enemies killed as stated by Ed himself in one of his many answers here on CK: "An Eldathyn often "fights" by opening a dam and unleashing a downstream flood, luring foes into the jaws and claws of a known predatory monster or into quicksand, and so on"

---

I was saying that many faiths in the Realms feel that sometimes you can't negotiate with the despot next door, you have to invade his realm and put things to rights by force. The Eldathyn would never do that. They might try to undermine him politically or something, but they would in no way support the use of force to solve the problem... since that's the definition of pacifism. Which is why I pointed out that they don't have 'holy warriors', since to the Eldathyn, that term is an oxymoron. And to the point: The followers of Eldath should really only be fighting undead, extraplanars, and (maybe) abominations. The statement 'They must swear to take no thinking life save in direst need' is telling- to most Eldathyn, simply saving their own lives isn't 'direst need'. After all, won't they just be going to the heavens and enjoying eternal peace if they die? So where's the dire need to prevent that?
To be honest, I've always thought that Eldath only survived because she was (irony of ironies) protected by Tempus, and because she, herself was very active in personally protecting her followers.
All of which is way off topic, anyway. Perhaps a new thread?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by rjfras

Sorry for taking this away from Ilmater a bit, but I just had to say something about Eldath and it could apply to Ilmater a bit too as far as protecting people.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Knight of the Gate

quote:

---

Originally posted by Arravis

Interesting take... but that would seem more in order with the clergy than paladins. I'll give it some thought.
My questions on the topic aren't for my own character; I'm the DM :). I'm trying to figure out the role the church of Ilmater in Damara would expect of their paladins. Perhaps what sort of strictures and expectations they would have of their duties. The paladin in the party may very well stand trial one day for her actions; actions that would be considered standard for paladins of other faiths.

-Arravis

---

Another thought: Another (IMO) ignored aspect of Paladinhood is this- we think of Pallies as Holy Warriors...and then put all the emphasis on the Holy and tend to ignore the Warrior. Faiths that support Paladins do so because they see a world in which being shocked and sad isn't going to always be enough: IMO, these faiths understand that while high moral ideals are the core of the faith, sometimes, you just need bigger guns and better men. This is why (for instance) Eldath doesn't have Holy Warriors- they don't agree with the above statement, and would rather be killed themselves than 'contribute to evil' (as they see it) by fighting back.
Again, I know it's a tad off-topic, but this is a subject to which I've given some thought. Hope it helps.

---

Why do people keep saying this or things along this line about followers of Eldath? I mean if you read the entries on her, you can see that her followers will fight and will kill, they just try other things first, but to think that they just stand there and let themselves be killed is ridiculous as there soon would be no more followers...

From the Dogma in Faiths & Avatars: They may defend but not punish. Eldathyn may work violence only to defend, and they may slay no thing of the forest save to prevent it from slaying themselves or another under their protection.

also from farther down in the dogma: They must swear to take no thinking life save in direst need

Her druids use weapons that are made for killing and not subduing like sickles, darts, spears, daggers and scimitars.

Her specialty priests can use weapons with restrictions which state: Peacemen and Peacewomen cannot fight, except to defend themselves and those with them. They may not initiate attacks, charges or ambushes. They are pacifists.

And while they may not always do the killing themselves when they are forced to kill in direct combat, they will do stuff to get enemies killed as stated by Ed himself in one of his many answers here on CK: "An Eldathyn often "fights" by opening a dam and unleashing a downstream flood, luring foes into the jaws and claws of a known predatory monster or into quicksand, and so on"

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Knight of the Gate

quote:

---

Originally posted by Arravis

Interesting take... but that would seem more in order with the clergy than paladins. I'll give it some thought.
My questions on the topic aren't for my own character; I'm the DM :). I'm trying to figure out the role the church of Ilmater in Damara would expect of their paladins. Perhaps what sort of strictures and expectations they would have of their duties. The paladin in the party may very well stand trial one day for her actions; actions that would be considered standard for paladins of other faiths.

-Arravis

---

Another thought: Another (IMO) ignored aspect of Paladinhood is this- we think of Pallies as Holy Warriors...and then put all the emphasis on the Holy and tend to ignore the Warrior. Faiths that support Paladins do so because they see a world in which being shocked and sad isn't going to always be enough: IMO, these faiths understand that while high moral ideals are the core of the faith, sometimes, you just need bigger guns and better men. This is why (for instance) Eldath doesn't have Holy Warriors- they don't agree with the above statement, and would rather be killed themselves than 'contribute to evil' (as they see it) by fighting back.
Again, I know it's a tad off-topic, but this is a subject to which I've given some thought. Hope it helps.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Arravis

Interesting take... but that would seem more in order with the clergy than paladins. I'll give it some thought.
My questions on the topic aren't for my own character; I'm the DM :). I'm trying to figure out the role the church of Ilmater in Damara would expect of their paladins. Perhaps what sort of strictures and expectations they would have of their duties. The paladin in the party may very well stand trial one day for her actions; actions that would be considered standard for paladins of other faiths.

-Arravis

---

quote:

---

Zoe: "Preacher, don't the Bible have some pretty specific things to say about killing?"
Book: "Quite specific. It is, however, somewhat fuzzier on the subject of kneecaps."

---