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Arravis
Seeker
USA
93 Posts |
 Posted - 25 Apr 2009 : 04:24:37
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My current FR campaign is set in the Bloodstone Lands (in 1378 DR); and I'm having some difficulties in understanding the ethics and morals of a paladin of Ilmater.
In reading all the lore I can find out there, its clear that Ilmater approves of violence under some circumstances... but the stipulations and justifications are so narrow as to be exceedingly rare. So rare, that what would be considered "standard" paladin behavior would probably be right out. I don't have a problem with this, I'm just wanting to understand where things stand, especially by the Ilmatari church in Damara.
Any time I've convinced myself that "just" violence in the name of the suffering or oppressed would be condoned, I re-read the info and I go right back. Sure, if the morality of the situation is crystal clear and you are only lessening suffering by it, it works; but add any kind of fuzziness to it, it falls apart quickly.
My campaign is set in a frontier town in Vaasa (much like a abandoned Deadwood); and situations therein are never clear. Everyone is a victim, everyone is a oppressor. Even the goblins and orcs are just scrapping by, everyone is just doing what they can to survive. If starving orcs attack the town; what does a paladin of Ilmater do? What if its starving brigands, or starving farmers from the next village over (when you barely have enough to feed your own people)?
Any advice would be much appreciated... thanks guys!
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Ashe Ravenheart
Great Reader
USA
3243 Posts |
Posted - 25 Apr 2009 : 05:21:31
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I figure a Paladin of Ilmater would be more about the 'laying on hands' instead. I see him as a field medic: trained in the art of war, but dedicated to the healing arts.
Bringing in a outside reference, check out Shepard Book from the Firefly series. Best quote ever for a priest in a gun battle.
quote:
Zoe: "Preacher, don't the Bible have some pretty specific things to say about killing?"
Book: "Quite specific. It is, however, somewhat fuzzier on the subject of kneecaps."
I'm not saying you should be looking for loopholes in your character's belief. However, to use your example, if the Orcs/Goblins are barely scraping by and that leads them to attack the town, you have every right to defend the town and its inhabitants since the Orcs & Goblins could just as easily try to work with the townsfolk to make everyone's life better. But they chose a destructive path instead of your god's will to lessen suffering. |
I actually DO know everything. I just have a very poor index of my knowledge.
Ashe's Character Sheet
Alphabetized Index of Realms NPCs |
Edited by - Ashe Ravenheart on 25 Apr 2009 05:21:54 |
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Arravis
Seeker
USA
93 Posts |
Posted - 25 Apr 2009 : 05:45:11
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Interesting take... but that would seem more in order with the clergy than paladins. I'll give it some thought.
My questions on the topic aren't for my own character; I'm the DM :). I'm trying to figure out the role the church of Ilmater in Damara would expect of their paladins. Perhaps what sort of strictures and expectations they would have of their duties. The paladin in the party may very well stand trial one day for her actions; actions that would be considered standard for paladins of other faiths.
-Arravis |
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Tyr
Learned Scribe
225 Posts |
Posted - 25 Apr 2009 : 06:51:21
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| If you have a look at the knightly orders of the religion you'll see there's a big difference in what is acceptable. There's the Order of the Golden Cup, which is what you're trying to get the player to do, while you have the other extreme with the Companions of the Noble Heart, who will ruthlessly seek out those who are causing suffering to others. The balance between the two generally makes a normal paladin really, so I wouldn't try to put on too many restrictions, otherwise he'll end up being an almost non-participant in any combat, which being in Vaasa would be atleast fairly common. |
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Arravis
Seeker
USA
93 Posts |
Posted - 25 Apr 2009 : 08:13:53
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| In which books can I find some info on those two orders? |
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Ashe Ravenheart
Great Reader
USA
3243 Posts |
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Knight of the Gate
Senior Scribe
USA
624 Posts |
Posted - 25 Apr 2009 : 19:00:55
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Good point Ashe- the ethics for the Paladin in question are largely informed by the Order to which he owes fealty, and the directives under which he operates. If the orders from his Church superiors say explicitly that the settlement is one that is important to the Church, and that its survival supercedes other concerns, then the reasons that those goblins are raiding becomes moot. Most players and DMs tend to (as I see it) see Paladins as pure Good, and forget the Lawful aspect of the class.
As an aside, I've always had a problem with Illmater even having Paladins. It seems that if there are ANY Illmateri Paladins, that they sould be rare as hen's teeth, and probably answer to the heads of the Church, as bodyguards and special operatives.
For this reason, IMG, Gareth (and thus the plurality of Paladins/Clerics in the Bloodstone Kingdom) is actually a Paladin of Bahumat- it makes more sense for a king, not to mention the fact that Gareth directly served The Lord of the North Wind in the desruction of the Rod of Orcus, and in slaying an avatar of Tiamat- also, Damara is under the direct protection of Bahumat in the form of the Tree-Gem, and Gareth has no less than 3 extremely powerful metallic dragons serving him as advisors.
Also, in my Realms, Illmater is NG, and is only concerned with the alleviation of suffering (to the point of generally being anti-governmental- after all, most governments support an uneven distribution of wealth, which leads to poverty and thus suffering) and offering surcease to those who do suffer. It's mainly a faith for the poor, the downtrodden, and the disenfranchised- most of his worshippers are slaves, peasants, and the urban poor (though the leadership is generally formed of revolutionary bourgoise do-gooders) and the church is a strong backer of the Harpers. All of which is off topic... but like I said, Illmater having Paladins makes about as much sense as a screen door on a submarine, to me.
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How can life be so bountiful, providing such sublime rewards for mediocrity? -Umberto Ecco |
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Knight of the Gate
Senior Scribe
USA
624 Posts |
Posted - 25 Apr 2009 : 19:08:46
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quote:
Originally posted by Arravis
Interesting take... but that would seem more in order with the clergy than paladins. I'll give it some thought.
My questions on the topic aren't for my own character; I'm the DM :). I'm trying to figure out the role the church of Ilmater in Damara would expect of their paladins. Perhaps what sort of strictures and expectations they would have of their duties. The paladin in the party may very well stand trial one day for her actions; actions that would be considered standard for paladins of other faiths.
-Arravis
Another thought: Another (IMO) ignored aspect of Paladinhood is this- we think of Pallies as Holy Warriors...and then put all the emphasis on the Holy and tend to ignore the Warrior. Faiths that support Paladins do so because they see a world in which being shocked and sad isn't going to always be enough: IMO, these faiths understand that while high moral ideals are the core of the faith, sometimes, you just need bigger guns and better men. This is why (for instance) Eldath doesn't have Holy Warriors- they don't agree with the above statement, and would rather be killed themselves than 'contribute to evil' (as they see it) by fighting back.
Again, I know it's a tad off-topic, but this is a subject to which I've given some thought. Hope it helps. |
How can life be so bountiful, providing such sublime rewards for mediocrity? -Umberto Ecco |
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Ashe Ravenheart
Great Reader
USA
3243 Posts |
Posted - 25 Apr 2009 : 19:12:17
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| Of course, my own personal tastes also include all the variant paladins from Unearthed Arcana, since I envision them as being the 'true believers' of there gods and not the just the judge/justice arm. |
I actually DO know everything. I just have a very poor index of my knowledge.
Ashe's Character Sheet
Alphabetized Index of Realms NPCs |
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Hawkins
Great Reader
USA
2131 Posts |
Posted - 27 Apr 2009 : 16:31:11
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If I were you I would look into taking the Subduing Strike feat (Book of Exalted Deeds, pg 46) and maybe the even the Vows of Nonviolence and Peace feats (BoED, pgs 47 & 48) for mechanical tools that might help you roleplay this. The thing with the vows, is that you can only do subdual damage to living targets (which excludes undead and constructs), but that means that you can only knock them unconscious (and then probably turn them over to authorities for their fate to be determined). The Subduing Strike feat allows you to do nonlethal damage without any penalty, which would be necessary if you where to take the Vow feats.
You may also want to read Road of the Patriarch by R. A. Salvatore (Book 3 in the Sellswords Trilogy. It takes place in the Bloodstone lands and features a monk of Ilmater (IIRC). I am not saying that your Bloodstone lands should mirror the Bloodstone lands in the book, but more that the monk of Ilmater might give you insight into how to play your paladin. |
Errant d20 Designer - My Blog (last updated January 06, 2016)
One, two! One, two! And through and through
The vorpal blade went snicker-snack!
He left it dead, and with its head
He went galumphing back. --Lewis Carroll, Through the Looking-Glass
"Mmm, not the darkness," Myrin murmured. "Don't cast it there." --Erik Scott de Bie, Shadowbane
* My character sheets (PFRPG, 3.5, and AE versions; not viewable in Internet Explorer)
* Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Reference Document (PFRPG OGL Rules)
* The Hypertext d20 SRD (3.5 OGL Rules)
* 3.5 D&D Archives
My game design work:
* Heroes of the Jade Oath (PFRPG, conversion; Rite Publishing)
* Compendium Arcanum Volume 1: Cantrips & Orisons (PFRPG, designer; d20pfsrd.com Publishing)
* Compendium Arcanum Volume 2: 1st-Level Spells (PFRPG, designer; d20pfsrd.com Publishing)
* Martial Arts Guidebook (forthcoming) (PFRPG, designer; Rite Publishing)
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Edited by - Hawkins on 27 Apr 2009 16:35:37 |
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Arravis
Seeker
USA
93 Posts |
Posted - 27 Apr 2009 : 17:42:33
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Thanks for all the responses guys! Good stuff :)
A friend and I were discussing the issue and we came to this conclusion. When it comes to both the clerical, paladin, or monkish orders, it all depends on the level of involvement the organization wishes with the outside world. How much does the organization weigh the needs of the group over the individual?
The church of Ilmater in Heliogabalus might be much more interested in keeping social good over the needs of a few individuals. It will seek to keep the rule of law and the social order intact so that the most people can be helped over a longer period of time. They would likely attack any aggressors, regardless of motivation. Since they are essentially good, non-lethal methods would be used against citizens, etc; but the judging of right and wrong will be left to qualified individuals after the fact. The paladin is there to enforce the law, and social good trickles down to the masses from that very act.
The other end would likely be the Monks of the Yellow Rose... they are much more interested in the individual, not the group. They deal with each individual in a direct one to one basis. Is the creature before me suffering? If so, they'll be helped... the overall picture of the situation is of little relevance. Treat the here and now; not what might be.
The thing for me is to figure out where the paladin's order stands on this line of individual vs group.
-Arravis |
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rjfras
Learned Scribe
261 Posts |
Posted - 27 Apr 2009 : 19:34:39
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Sorry for taking this away from Ilmater a bit, but I just had to say something about Eldath and it could apply to Ilmater a bit too as far as protecting people.
quote:
Originally posted by Knight of the Gate
quote:
Originally posted by Arravis
Interesting take... but that would seem more in order with the clergy than paladins. I'll give it some thought.
My questions on the topic aren't for my own character; I'm the DM :). I'm trying to figure out the role the church of Ilmater in Damara would expect of their paladins. Perhaps what sort of strictures and expectations they would have of their duties. The paladin in the party may very well stand trial one day for her actions; actions that would be considered standard for paladins of other faiths.
-Arravis
Another thought: Another (IMO) ignored aspect of Paladinhood is this- we think of Pallies as Holy Warriors...and then put all the emphasis on the Holy and tend to ignore the Warrior. Faiths that support Paladins do so because they see a world in which being shocked and sad isn't going to always be enough: IMO, these faiths understand that while high moral ideals are the core of the faith, sometimes, you just need bigger guns and better men. This is why (for instance) Eldath doesn't have Holy Warriors- they don't agree with the above statement, and would rather be killed themselves than 'contribute to evil' (as they see it) by fighting back.
Again, I know it's a tad off-topic, but this is a subject to which I've given some thought. Hope it helps.
Why do people keep saying this or things along this line about followers of Eldath? I mean if you read the entries on her, you can see that her followers will fight and will kill, they just try other things first, but to think that they just stand there and let themselves be killed is ridiculous as there soon would be no more followers...
From the Dogma in Faiths & Avatars: They may defend but not punish. Eldathyn may work violence only to defend, and they may slay no thing of the forest save to prevent it from slaying themselves or another under their protection.
also from farther down in the dogma: They must swear to take no thinking life save in direst need
Her druids use weapons that are made for killing and not subduing like sickles, darts, spears, daggers and scimitars.
Her specialty priests can use weapons with restrictions which state: Peacemen and Peacewomen cannot fight, except to defend themselves and those with them. They may not initiate attacks, charges or ambushes. They are pacifists.
And while they may not always do the killing themselves when they are forced to kill in direct combat, they will do stuff to get enemies killed as stated by Ed himself in one of his many answers here on CK: "An Eldathyn often "fights" by opening a dam and unleashing a downstream flood, luring foes into the jaws and claws of a known predatory monster or into quicksand, and so on" |
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Knight of the Gate
Senior Scribe
USA
624 Posts |
Posted - 27 Apr 2009 : 19:56:04
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quote:
Originally posted by rjfras
Sorry for taking this away from Ilmater a bit, but I just had to say something about Eldath and it could apply to Ilmater a bit too as far as protecting people.
quote:
Originally posted by Knight of the Gate
quote:
Originally posted by Arravis
Interesting take... but that would seem more in order with the clergy than paladins. I'll give it some thought.
My questions on the topic aren't for my own character; I'm the DM :). I'm trying to figure out the role the church of Ilmater in Damara would expect of their paladins. Perhaps what sort of strictures and expectations they would have of their duties. The paladin in the party may very well stand trial one day for her actions; actions that would be considered standard for paladins of other faiths.
-Arravis
Another thought: Another (IMO) ignored aspect of Paladinhood is this- we think of Pallies as Holy Warriors...and then put all the emphasis on the Holy and tend to ignore the Warrior. Faiths that support Paladins do so because they see a world in which being shocked and sad isn't going to always be enough: IMO, these faiths understand that while high moral ideals are the core of the faith, sometimes, you just need bigger guns and better men. This is why (for instance) Eldath doesn't have Holy Warriors- they don't agree with the above statement, and would rather be killed themselves than 'contribute to evil' (as they see it) by fighting back.
Again, I know it's a tad off-topic, but this is a subject to which I've given some thought. Hope it helps.
Why do people keep saying this or things along this line about followers of Eldath? I mean if you read the entries on her, you can see that her followers will fight and will kill, they just try other things first, but to think that they just stand there and let themselves be killed is ridiculous as there soon would be no more followers...
From the Dogma in Faiths & Avatars: They may defend but not punish. Eldathyn may work violence only to defend, and they may slay no thing of the forest save to prevent it from slaying themselves or another under their protection.
also from farther down in the dogma: They must swear to take no thinking life save in direst need
Her druids use weapons that are made for killing and not subduing like sickles, darts, spears, daggers and scimitars.
Her specialty priests can use weapons with restrictions which state: Peacemen and Peacewomen cannot fight, except to defend themselves and those with them. They may not initiate attacks, charges or ambushes. They are pacifists.
And while they may not always do the killing themselves when they are forced to kill in direct combat, they will do stuff to get enemies killed as stated by Ed himself in one of his many answers here on CK: "An Eldathyn often "fights" by opening a dam and unleashing a downstream flood, luring foes into the jaws and claws of a known predatory monster or into quicksand, and so on"
I was saying that many faiths in the Realms feel that sometimes you can't negotiate with the despot next door, you have to invade his realm and put things to rights by force. The Eldathyn would never do that. They might try to undermine him politically or something, but they would in no way support the use of force to solve the problem... since that's the definition of pacifism. Which is why I pointed out that they don't have 'holy warriors', since to the Eldathyn, that term is an oxymoron. And to the point: The followers of Eldath should really only be fighting undead, extraplanars, and (maybe) abominations. The statement 'They must swear to take no thinking life save in direst need' is telling- to most Eldathyn, simply saving their own lives isn't 'direst need'. After all, won't they just be going to the heavens and enjoying eternal peace if they die? So where's the dire need to prevent that? 
To be honest, I've always thought that Eldath only survived because she was (irony of ironies) protected by Tempus, and because she, herself was very active in personally protecting her followers.
All of which is way off topic, anyway. Perhaps a new thread? |
How can life be so bountiful, providing such sublime rewards for mediocrity? -Umberto Ecco |
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rjfras
Learned Scribe
261 Posts |
Posted - 27 Apr 2009 : 20:44:29
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quote:
Originally posted by Knight of the Gate
quote:
Originally posted by rjfras
Sorry for taking this away from Ilmater a bit, but I just had to say something about Eldath and it could apply to Ilmater a bit too as far as protecting people.
quote:
Originally posted by Knight of the Gate
quote:
Originally posted by Arravis
Interesting take... but that would seem more in order with the clergy than paladins. I'll give it some thought.
My questions on the topic aren't for my own character; I'm the DM :). I'm trying to figure out the role the church of Ilmater in Damara would expect of their paladins. Perhaps what sort of strictures and expectations they would have of their duties. The paladin in the party may very well stand trial one day for her actions; actions that would be considered standard for paladins of other faiths.
-Arravis
Another thought: Another (IMO) ignored aspect of Paladinhood is this- we think of Pallies as Holy Warriors...and then put all the emphasis on the Holy and tend to ignore the Warrior. Faiths that support Paladins do so because they see a world in which being shocked and sad isn't going to always be enough: IMO, these faiths understand that while high moral ideals are the core of the faith, sometimes, you just need bigger guns and better men. This is why (for instance) Eldath doesn't have Holy Warriors- they don't agree with the above statement, and would rather be killed themselves than 'contribute to evil' (as they see it) by fighting back.
Again, I know it's a tad off-topic, but this is a subject to which I've given some thought. Hope it helps.
Why do people keep saying this or things along this line about followers of Eldath? I mean if you read the entries on her, you can see that her followers will fight and will kill, they just try other things first, but to think that they just stand there and let themselves be killed is ridiculous as there soon would be no more followers...
From the Dogma in Faiths & Avatars: They may defend but not punish. Eldathyn may work violence only to defend, and they may slay no thing of the forest save to prevent it from slaying themselves or another under their protection.
also from farther down in the dogma: They must swear to take no thinking life save in direst need
Her druids use weapons that are made for killing and not subduing like sickles, darts, spears, daggers and scimitars.
Her specialty priests can use weapons with restrictions which state: Peacemen and Peacewomen cannot fight, except to defend themselves and those with them. They may not initiate attacks, charges or ambushes. They are pacifists.
And while they may not always do the killing themselves when they are forced to kill in direct combat, they will do stuff to get enemies killed as stated by Ed himself in one of his many answers here on CK: "An Eldathyn often "fights" by opening a dam and unleashing a downstream flood, luring foes into the jaws and claws of a known predatory monster or into quicksand, and so on"
I was saying that many faiths in the Realms feel that sometimes you can't negotiate with the despot next door, you have to invade his realm and put things to rights by force. The Eldathyn would never do that. They might try to undermine him politically or something, but they would in no way support the use of force to solve the problem... since that's the definition of pacifism. Which is why I pointed out that they don't have 'holy warriors', since to the Eldathyn, that term is an oxymoron. And to the point: The followers of Eldath should really only be fighting undead, extraplanars, and (maybe) abominations. The statement 'They must swear to take no thinking life save in direst need' is telling- to most Eldathyn, simply saving their own lives isn't 'direst need'. After all, won't they just be going to the heavens and enjoying eternal peace if they die? So where's the dire need to prevent that?
To be honest, I've always thought that Eldath only survived because she was (irony of ironies) protected by Tempus, and because she, herself was very active in personally protecting her followers.
All of which is way off topic, anyway. Perhaps a new thread?
Now, see, your taking one line of the post and basing your statement off that.. what about the line right above that one "to prevent it from slaying themselves or another under their protection." If you do not consider losing your life a dire need, well, then you don't value life much. Not many people want to die, if they don't have to, even if they are going go to their version of "heaven" afterward. Now once they do die many choose not to come back from the dead, but most do not go out of their way to get killed or just let themselves be killed, except for the times when someone sacrifices themselves for the greater good or to prevent others being killed and those are usually portrayed as heroic instances, not some senseless death or as crazy, insane or full on extremists such as terrorists and such, but they think they are doing it for the greater good of their religion or beliefs and are sacrificing themselves.
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Knight of the Gate
Senior Scribe
USA
624 Posts |
Posted - 27 Apr 2009 : 21:17:33
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| Can the mods move this to a new thread, please, so we don't -jack this one further? |
How can life be so bountiful, providing such sublime rewards for mediocrity? -Umberto Ecco |
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rjfras
Learned Scribe
261 Posts |
Posted - 27 Apr 2009 : 23:24:28
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quote:
Originally posted by Arravis
My current FR campaign is set in the Bloodstone Lands (in 1378 DR); and I'm having some difficulties in understanding the ethics and morals of a paladin of Ilmater.
In reading all the lore I can find out there, its clear that Ilmater approves of violence under some circumstances... but the stipulations and justifications are so narrow as to be exceedingly rare. So rare, that what would be considered "standard" paladin behavior would probably be right out. I don't have a problem with this, I'm just wanting to understand where things stand, especially by the Ilmatari church in Damara.
Any time I've convinced myself that "just" violence in the name of the suffering or oppressed would be condoned, I re-read the info and I go right back. Sure, if the morality of the situation is crystal clear and you are only lessening suffering by it, it works; but add any kind of fuzziness to it, it falls apart quickly.
My campaign is set in a frontier town in Vaasa (much like a abandoned Deadwood); and situations therein are never clear. Everyone is a victim, everyone is a oppressor. Even the goblins and orcs are just scrapping by, everyone is just doing what they can to survive. If starving orcs attack the town; what does a paladin of Ilmater do? What if its starving brigands, or starving farmers from the next village over (when you barely have enough to feed your own people)?
Any advice would be much appreciated... thanks guys!
There is always going to be fuzziness in someone's interpretation compared to another's. If you try to make every little decision of the paladin a morality or a this could come back to haunt me 2 years down the road, it's going to grow tiresome real soon and make the paladin not want to do anything or not play a paladin at all.
If the town is the area the paladin is there to care for and protect, and the goblins or brigands are attacking the town, the town folk must be protected even if it means having to kill them.
The goblins are evil and chances are good that they would stage attacks on or in the area of the town even if there was food, so eliminating them is a solution.
The brigands he should incapacitate if possible and turn them over to the authorities, but if they do not retreat or give up and keep pressing the attack then killing them might be the only choice, but chances are they will retreat to regroup/lick their wounds if they are hurt.
The farmers from the next village would probably think twice if a man comes out to block their way and is wearing armor and a sword and they are using pitch forks or what not. If he claims to be a representative of Illmater, most are going to prolly listen to what he has to say and he can attempt to convince them that this action is not the right one and that he will attempt to talk with the leaders of both towns and try to work something out to help both towns. This part would fall under sections of the Day to Day Activities of those who follow Ilmatar: "take time to counsel those who are upset" and then he can work on a way to get them all fed "feed the hungry" |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31774 Posts |
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Hawkins
Great Reader
USA
2131 Posts |
Posted - 28 Apr 2009 : 16:10:18
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quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
Fellow scribes, we seem to be moving away from the original topic of discussion for this scroll. Please get back on track.
Dearest Sage, I would like to point out that above someone asked that the off-topic posts be moved to a new thread. |
Errant d20 Designer - My Blog (last updated January 06, 2016)
One, two! One, two! And through and through
The vorpal blade went snicker-snack!
He left it dead, and with its head
He went galumphing back. --Lewis Carroll, Through the Looking-Glass
"Mmm, not the darkness," Myrin murmured. "Don't cast it there." --Erik Scott de Bie, Shadowbane
* My character sheets (PFRPG, 3.5, and AE versions; not viewable in Internet Explorer)
* Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Reference Document (PFRPG OGL Rules)
* The Hypertext d20 SRD (3.5 OGL Rules)
* 3.5 D&D Archives
My game design work:
* Heroes of the Jade Oath (PFRPG, conversion; Rite Publishing)
* Compendium Arcanum Volume 1: Cantrips & Orisons (PFRPG, designer; d20pfsrd.com Publishing)
* Compendium Arcanum Volume 2: 1st-Level Spells (PFRPG, designer; d20pfsrd.com Publishing)
* Martial Arts Guidebook (forthcoming) (PFRPG, designer; Rite Publishing)
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31774 Posts |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 28 Apr 2009 : 16:42:48
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quote:
Originally posted by HawkinstheDM
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
Fellow scribes, we seem to be moving away from the original topic of discussion for this scroll. Please get back on track.
Dearest Sage, I would like to point out that above someone asked that the off-topic posts be moved to a new thread.
At the moment, we do not have the ability to move individual posts -- we can only copy them into a new spot. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen!  |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31774 Posts |
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Knight of the Gate
Senior Scribe
USA
624 Posts |
Posted - 28 Apr 2009 : 17:46:37
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Sage and Wooly: Sorry for all that... I wanted to reply to rjfras' posts, but didn't want to do it here (off topic) or in PM, since I think it's a valuable discussion, and one that might interest others if it had its own thread.
EDIT: Since The Hamster-in-Chief pointed out that mods only really cut and paste the discussions, I thought I'd do so myself. The thread is at
http://forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=12445 |
How can life be so bountiful, providing such sublime rewards for mediocrity? -Umberto Ecco |
Edited by - Knight of the Gate on 28 Apr 2009 18:01:35 |
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Hawkins
Great Reader
USA
2131 Posts |
Posted - 28 Apr 2009 : 18:50:12
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by HawkinstheDM
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
Fellow scribes, we seem to be moving away from the original topic of discussion for this scroll. Please get back on track.
Dearest Sage, I would like to point out that above someone asked that the off-topic posts be moved to a new thread.
At the moment, we do not have the ability to move individual posts -- we can only copy them into a new spot.
Maybe this will be something that you guys will have more power over in the CK 2.0 forums.  Sorry for my misunderstanding of the situation. |
Errant d20 Designer - My Blog (last updated January 06, 2016)
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He left it dead, and with its head
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31774 Posts |
Posted - 29 Apr 2009 : 00:41:53
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quote:
Originally posted by HawkinstheDM
Maybe this will be something that you guys will have more power over in the CK 2.0 forums. Sorry for my misunderstanding of the situation.
We have discussed this possibility, and it's among Alaundo's "grand o' list of stuff" for Candlekeep 2. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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coach
Senior Scribe
USA
479 Posts |
Posted - 29 Apr 2009 : 01:54:50
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Ilmateri Paladins in the Bloodstone Lands
quote:
I. Classes
1. Paladins [Ilmater] (FRCS p25, 107) (RoF p90) (H3 p10) (DDaD p8) (CoV p42-43,103)
a. Army led by Paladins of Ilmater (FRCS p107)
b. Order of the Golden Cup [highest order of Ilmateri paladins in Damara] (FRCS p107) (DDaD p8) substitution level (CoV p42-43,103)
c. More tolerant of ‘common folk’ than paladins elsewhere in Faerun (FR9 p24)
d. Can multicalss as clerics, divine disciples, or hierophants (DDaD p8)
e. This order is dedicated to healing and protecting the sick, innocent, and weak, rather than seeking out evil to destroy. They are not opposed to such actions, but see their role as something different. (DDaD p8)
that last source is Deity's Do's and Dont's from wizards website |
Bloodstone Lands Sage |
Edited by - coach on 29 Apr 2009 02:09:53 |
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coach
Senior Scribe
USA
479 Posts |
Posted - 29 Apr 2009 : 02:12:21
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here is what I have on Ilmater in Damara (not necessarily Paladins but maybe helpful)
quote:
H. Dieties/Temples
1. Ilmater (FRCS p23,106,242) (RoF p91) (Rite p225,327) (GTotR p117) (DDaD p7,8,12) (CoV p140-141)
a. Order of the Golden Cup [highest order of Ilmateri paladins] [fortress in the Damaran Gate] (FR9 p24) (FRCS p107) (DDaD p8) (CoV p42-43,103)
b. Monks of the Yellow Rose/ Monastery of the Yellow Rose (FRCS p107) (FR9 p41,46,50) (DDaD p7) (CoV p20,24-25,92,103)
c. The Church of Ilmater dominates Damara (RoF p91) (Rite p225) (Rage p218) (GTotR p117)
d. Churches of Ilmater often dedicated to one of his saints
e. St. Sollars the twice-martyred prominent saint of Ilmater in Damara [symbol is the Yellow Rose] (RoF p91) (FR9 p23) (H4 p30,80,82) (GTotR p117) (DDaD p7)
f. St. Dionysus is also honored in Damara and a huge cathedral dedicated to the saint is being built in Goliad at a cost of over a million gold pieces [funded from gems and gold plundered by Friar Dugald from the horde of Tiamat] (FR9 p23,27,37-38,49)
g. The vanguard of the King and Queen are all paladins or clerics of Ilmater (Rite p225)
h. Sacred animals are white doves, white donkeys, sparrows, and field mice (DDaD p12)
i. Sacred flowers are daisies and white roses (DDaD p12)
j. Sacred beings are devas, planetars, and solars (DDaD p12)
k. Sacred colors are gray and red (DDaD p12)
j. The Weeping Garden (CoV p140-141)
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Bloodstone Lands Sage |
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coach
Senior Scribe
USA
479 Posts |
Posted - 29 Apr 2009 : 02:21:21
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and other tidbits I have collected
quote:
g. Worldview is one of moral absolutes – Good vs. Evil (RoF p88) (PGtF p16)
h. No compromise with evil even for the greater good (RoF p88) (Rite p229)
quote:
D. Politics/Laws
1. Government became a monarchy in 1075 [founder Feldrin Bloodfeather’s bloodline traced back to Sembia] (FRCS p106) (RoF p89) (FR9 p21)
a. The Church of the state is Ilmater (RoF p91)
b. Paladins of Ilmater are frequent occupants of the throne (RoF p91)
quote:
8. Class divisions less notable than in anywhere on Faerun, other than Royalty and the Court and Paladins and knights being referred to as “Sir” or “Milord” (RoF p90) (Rite)
9. Morally unfit are shunned, No compromise with evil even for the greater good (RoF p88,90) (Rite p229)
10. City-dwellers educated in church-run schools (RoF p90)
11. Damaran Army led by Paladins of Ilmater (FRCS p107)
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Bloodstone Lands Sage |
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IronAngel
Seeker
65 Posts |
Posted - 08 May 2009 : 23:17:01
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This is my view on Ilmatari paladins, written for a Paladins of the Realms series I was working on for our NWN server.
quote:
Paladins of Ilmater
Ilmater, the Crying God, is the deity of perseverance and martyrdom. He encourages his followers to comfort the suffering and take the pain of others upon themselves. The paladins in Ilmater's service are especially dedicated to helping the helpless and giving hope to the hopeless. While paladins of Tyr or Helm might be more interested in upholding law and order, Ilmatari focus on treating the wounds of those harmed by evil and preventing atrocities.
The church of Ilmater is famous and well-liked for its charity work, and it's also something many paladins choose to focus on. Ilmater tells his worshipers to emphasize the spiritual aspect of life over the material, and excessive wealth is considered inappropriate for Ilmatari. A paladin of Ilmater should therefore generally donate to charity any extra funds left after acquiring medicine and equipping himself properly to serve his god and cause. The church of Ilmater, independent orphanages and hospitals, or the temples of other goodly deities are good targets for their donations. While Imatari paladins don't always take an absolute oath of poverty, it's commonly agreed that riches are not something for them to have.
Many people misunderstand Ilmatari and their devotion to endure suffering so that others wouldn't have to. The church is often seen as weak and foolhardy, but this couldn't be father from the truth. Ilmater tells his followers to stand up to any injustice and tolerate no tyranny. While his paladins would prefer to tend to the sick and poor, they are also the ones who step up to challenge evil when no others dare – even if it means certain defeat. Ilmatari believe that there is no shame in a meaningful death and are more inclined to martyrdom and self-sacrifice than other paladins. On the other hand, life is sacred to them and they will not charge to pointless death when there's nothing to be gained.
While Tormtar paladins will specifically strike evil so that it hurts, Ilmatari are strongly opposed to any unnecessary suffering. A Tyrran paladin might accept some level of torture as a just punishment for crimes if that was the local legal system, but an Ilmatari will never approve of any kind of torture. Their respect for life usually makes them oppose executions, but they might have to accept it as part of a realm's law. They are no pacifists, however: they fill fight and kill furiously on the battlefield when faced with tyrants, torturers and other horrible wrong-doers.
There are two paladin orders serving Ilmater's church. The more militant of the two are the Companions of the Noble Heart. The Companions are heroes who aggressively fight those who advocate cruelty and suffering, especially followers of Talona and Loviatar. It's not unknown for them to attack a Loviatan shrine, kill every worshiper inside and then tear the place to the ground.
The more peaceful group is the Order of the Golden Cup. They are closer to the traditional image of Ilmatari, tending to the weak and protecting them, rather than looking for evil to vanquish. They won't hesitate to confront evil when necessary, but it's not their role to go on campaigns against atrocities. Rather, they choose to stay with the people and soothe their hurts. You might find a member of the Golden Cup distributing medicine to children or protecting a village so that the tyrant from the nearby village won't gain influence there while the Companions of the Noble Heart ride to war against the tyrant.
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rjfras
Learned Scribe
261 Posts |
Posted - 09 May 2009 : 05:09:45
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| I like that write up IronAngel... gonna copy it to my files I have for each god for references and ideas that Ed, the books and various scribes have conveyed for each of the gods I'm interested in... |
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Ethics, combat, and playing a paladin of Ilmater..
