| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Iskadrow |
Posted - 21 Dec 2008 : 16:21:18
"Sun elves are also the foremost clerics and paladins among the elven races."
This bit of information from the Races of Faerūn supplement is causing me some headaches. Is the paladin a placeholder here (standing in for paladin-like classes and class combinations), or does the book really mean what it says? Are there sun elven paladins of the Seldarine? Which of these chaotic gods would grant a devoted follower of lawful alignment his divine grace? |
| 30 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| Rinonalyrna Fathomlin |
Posted - 07 Jan 2009 : 01:38:07
quote:
Originally posted by ranger_of_the_unicorn_run
My guess is that Arion was trying to say that there should be some variety in the personalities of characters of each alignment. Not every lawful good character should be the stereotypical paladin, and not every lawful evil character should be like a follower of Bane.
I agree with that. |
| Nerfed2Hell |
Posted - 05 Jan 2009 : 21:24:17
That's "Lawful Stupid" and "Chaotic Selfish". |
| Ardashir |
Posted - 05 Jan 2009 : 16:45:57
quote:
Originally posted by Arion Elenim
quote:
Originally posted by Ardashir
quote:
Originally posted by Arion Elenim
Ditto. I don't think alignment should ever influence personality or character.
??? Then what's the point of even including it?
Outside of bad fiction, no one should be shown doing something because "it's evil" or "it's good". But that doesn't mean that evil characters won't try to attain their goals by evil means, or that a lawful one will follow some sort of law, whether it be religious, secular, or moral law, even if the entire society around is all hell let out for noon (go and read about the life of Confucious for more on that).
If you don't wish to use alignment, then fine, okay and all that. But it seems odd to just ignore it except for when it lets you know who can can drop a Holy Smite on.
Maybe another way to explain it is that alignment shouldn't dictate what kind of personality you have, just what actions you do that apply to law or morality. A chaotic character shouldn't necessarily have to have a 'chaotic' personality, a neutral character can be just as fiery as anyone else, etc.
Okay, that I agree with completely. (The "alignment doesn't control personality" statement.) I think we've all seen examples of "Lawful Stupid/Chaotic Stupid", haven't we? |
| Ardashir |
Posted - 05 Jan 2009 : 16:44:32
quote:
Originally posted by ranger_of_the_unicorn_run
My guess is that Arion was trying to say that there should be some variety in the personalities of characters of each alignment. Not every lawful good character should be the stereotypical paladin, and not every lawful evil character should be like a follower of Bane.
That I do agree with. I try to fall somehwere between the "alignment means nothing, even if you use it" and "alignment means everything" arguments. Good guys can have unpleasant characteristics, and evil ones can haev some positive traits. |
| ErskineF |
Posted - 05 Jan 2009 : 03:35:37
I don't believe there is a limit to the number of ways one could describe the character and personality of a person of a particular alignment. A character could be LG with a any number of uniquely individualized motives, goals, and ethical concerns. Alignment hems the choices in somewhat, but it doesn't determine them such that one can always say what a person of a given alignment ought to do in a given situation.
Given the way the rules use alignment, it's a necessary part of the character's description but it isn't remotely sufficient.
|
| Arion Elenim |
Posted - 04 Jan 2009 : 07:46:04
quote:
Originally posted by Ardashir
quote:
Originally posted by Arion Elenim
Ditto. I don't think alignment should ever influence personality or character.
??? Then what's the point of even including it?
Outside of bad fiction, no one should be shown doing something because "it's evil" or "it's good". But that doesn't mean that evil characters won't try to attain their goals by evil means, or that a lawful one will follow some sort of law, whether it be religious, secular, or moral law, even if the entire society around is all hell let out for noon (go and read about the life of Confucious for more on that).
If you don't wish to use alignment, then fine, okay and all that. But it seems odd to just ignore it except for when it lets you know who can can drop a Holy Smite on.
Maybe another way to explain it is that alignment shouldn't dictate what kind of personality you have, just what actions you do that apply to law or morality. A chaotic character shouldn't necessarily have to have a 'chaotic' personality, a neutral character can be just as fiery as anyone else, etc. |
| ranger_of_the_unicorn_run |
Posted - 04 Jan 2009 : 07:02:01
My guess is that Arion was trying to say that there should be some variety in the personalities of characters of each alignment. Not every lawful good character should be the stereotypical paladin, and not every lawful evil character should be like a follower of Bane. |
| Nerfed2Hell |
Posted - 04 Jan 2009 : 00:35:03
Alignment should influence behavior... but not dominate it. |
| Rinonalyrna Fathomlin |
Posted - 03 Jan 2009 : 23:42:54
If a game is going to include the concept of alignment (and it certainly doesn't have to), then I agree that the alignment one picks for a character should have at least some relevance to that character's general behavior. |
| Ardashir |
Posted - 03 Jan 2009 : 19:07:28
quote:
Originally posted by Arion Elenim
Ditto. I don't think alignment should ever influence personality or character.
??? Then what's the point of even including it?
Outside of bad fiction, no one should be shown doing something because "it's evil" or "it's good". But that doesn't mean that evil characters won't try to attain their goals by evil means, or that a lawful one will follow some sort of law, whether it be religious, secular, or moral law, even if the entire society around is all hell let out for noon (go and read about the life of Confucious for more on that).
If you don't wish to use alignment, then fine, okay and all that. But it seems odd to just ignore it except for when it lets you know who can can drop a Holy Smite on. |
| Ardashir |
Posted - 03 Jan 2009 : 18:58:56
I could see a Sun Elf paladin of Lathander. They seem like a goood fit, what with Lathander's focus (in his lawful aspect) on nobility and warring against evil and darkness. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 02 Jan 2009 : 15:42:02
quote:
Originally posted by IronAngel
In my opinion, paladin should be treated as primarly a human class and institution (as in 2e); let the other races have their unique champions.
I tend to agree, especially since most races in 2E allowed fighter-cleric combos. |
| IronAngel |
Posted - 02 Jan 2009 : 15:24:28
By all means, LG champions and knights of Corellon and other elven deities is perfectly plausible and something I'd readily allow in my game. However, I just don't feel they should be called paladins, or necessarily even have all the abilities of the class. In my opinion, paladin should be treated as primarly a human class and institution (as in 2e); let the other races have their unique champions. |
| Razz |
Posted - 01 Jan 2009 : 23:12:38
I cannot specifically remember which of the Realms designers stated this (I am thinking Richard Baker on his "Ask Richard Baker" thread, but don't quote me on that), but he specifically did say the elven gods can have Lawful Good paladin champions of their faith no different than the way Sune has her own order of Paladins even though she is CG.
Obviously, some of the elven deities are more liable to have a paladin order of elves than others (Corellon Larethian especially) while others don't (sort of like how Savras doesn't have paladins despite being LN...or does he?).
In any civilized society, despite the fact the majority of that society is chaotic in alignment, you need some of those willing to devote themselves to a Lawful state of being in order to keep even a little order among the chaos. The USA is sort of like that, a principle devoted to individuality and freedom (Chaotic principle), but we use the government and authority to make sure that freedom applies to everyone equally and enforce those principles (the Lawful principle).
Well, essentially that balances out to a Neutral nation, but you get what I mean. Even among free-spirited elves, there're elves that devote themselves to a disciplined hierarchy of the way things are in the universe and they strive to use those laws to protect the freedom of the elves.
I don't think I am wording myself right, but it's the best I can do.
Personally, I allow elven LG paladins but only in Corellon's church for now. |
| Rinonalyrna Fathomlin |
Posted - 30 Dec 2008 : 17:14:31
quote:
Originally posted by Elven Avenger
In elven society sometimes there are some cases of members from some houses that have evil alignment. In Myth Drannor this was even more easy to see in those noble houses that did'nt wanted the Coronal to open the city to non-elves. Would you see a paladin fit in that setting? A character with detect/smite evil ability commited to act or at least investigate any suspicious member from some houses just because of their alignment. That sounds strange.
Doesn't that kind of imply that the elves of that city weren't allowed to "be evil"? "Being evil" (as in, having an evil alignment) is one thing, actually doing evil is quite another. From what I understood, the coronal didn't require everyone to agree with him all the time (not that disagreeing with him made a person "evil", for that manner). |
| Elven Avenger |
Posted - 29 Dec 2008 : 13:45:04
Dont consider this a flood, just to make sure I liked your point. :) |
| Lord Karsus |
Posted - 26 Dec 2008 : 17:07:43
quote:
Originally posted by Elven Avenger
In elven society sometimes there are some cases of members from some houses that have evil alignment. In Myth Drannor this was even more easy to see in those noble houses that did'nt wanted the Coronal to open the city to non-elves. Would you see a paladin fit in that setting? A character with detect/smite evil ability commited to act or at least investigate any suspicious member from some houses just because of their alignment. That sounds strange.
-Not, really, no. The situation exists for every race that exists in the setting. The species, in general, maybe be a specific alignment, but there is always going to be individual variation. Thus resulting in LE Sun Elves, LG Drow, and so on. That certain Elves in Myth Drannor did not want Coronal Eltargrim to open up the city to N'Tel'Quessir is not evil. To go about summoning evil Dragon creatures to stop him, or to attempt assassinating him or his close confidants, that is evil. But, no, to not want him to do it is not evil. I support such a notion, in fact. |
| Elven Avenger |
Posted - 26 Dec 2008 : 14:22:30
In elven society sometimes there are some cases of members from some houses that have evil alignment. In Myth Drannor this was even more easy to see in those noble houses that did'nt wanted the Coronal to open the city to non-elves. Would you see a paladin fit in that setting? A character with detect/smite evil ability commited to act or at least investigate any suspicious member from some houses just because of their alignment. That sounds strange.
I think the bladesingers are still the best option to make an elven act like a paladin or a champion inside elven society and culture. |
| Lord Karsus |
Posted - 24 Dec 2008 : 15:30:47
quote:
Originally posted by sfdragon
but its not Realmslore on her though..
-No the deities in Races of the Wild are not Forgotten Realms specific. But, if it's someone/something that an individual wants, they can use it. |
| sfdragon |
Posted - 24 Dec 2008 : 09:22:06
quote:
Originally posted by Dagnirion
-Juban. Heh. I am Jewish, and I have taken a very deep interest in Tibetan Buddhism, yes.
-I don't recall mentioning it, or seeing it in the thread: The Champion of Corellon (from Races of the Wild) is probably the best "Elven Paladin".
yeppers that it is.
of course one of the elven deities listed in that book is LN which allows for paladins too....
but its not Realmslore on her though.. |
| Lord Karsus |
Posted - 24 Dec 2008 : 05:34:02
-Thank you.  |
| Arion Elenim |
Posted - 24 Dec 2008 : 05:08:11
Pumps his fist* Called it! :D
Happy Chanukkah and jai guru dev! |
| Lord Karsus |
Posted - 24 Dec 2008 : 03:31:21
-Juban. Heh. I am Jewish, and I have taken a very deep interest in Tibetan Buddhism, yes.
-I don't recall mentioning it, or seeing it in the thread: The Champion of Corellon (from Races of the Wild) is probably the best "Elven Paladin". |
| Arion Elenim |
Posted - 24 Dec 2008 : 03:17:47
My girlfriend is a Juban (Cuban Jew). Does that mean that as a Jubu, you're a Jewish Buddhist? :) |
| Arion Elenim |
Posted - 23 Dec 2008 : 20:42:59
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by ranger_of_the_unicorn_run
I think chaos is used in a more social sense in D&D. Chaotic characters are not truly unpredictable, they simply stand for personal freedom taken to a higher degree than lawful or neutral characters. They don't follow societal rules, but they follow otherwise typical human (or demihuman) nature.
And that's pretty much my way of looking at it.
Ditto. I don't think alignment should ever influence personality or character. It's just a broad term for a character's opinions on society at large.
Oh...and it helps with things like that pesky magic circle versus evil thing... |
| Nerfed2Hell |
Posted - 23 Dec 2008 : 19:05:53
I like tangible things with physical embodiments, even if only in a fantasy RPG setting. It really helps define that whole "right/wrong" thing without making arbitrary and possibly judgement calls. |
| Lord Karsus |
Posted - 23 Dec 2008 : 12:56:56
quote:
Originally posted by ErskineF
That's the best way to interpret it, but it doesn't completely square with having gods who elevate chaos to a cosmic force that must be worshipped. The alignments are tied into the structure of the multiverse in a way that suggests far more than just notions about societal rules. :)
-Sure. In D&D, things like 'Good', 'Evil', 'Law' and 'Chaos' are more than just theoretical concepts. They're tangible things, with planes and planar creatures being the physical embodiments of such forces. |
| Ghost King |
Posted - 23 Dec 2008 : 07:59:39
One of the few things I like about 4th Edition, is the new alignments. It pretty much just sums it up into a few catagories. You're either LG, G, Unaligned, E, or CE. I always thought neutral characters, especially "true" neutral, all acted fairly the same to one another. If you were neutral the word alone implies impartiality. NG and CG characters always appeared the same to me, except the definition of "Benefactor" and "Free-spirit" that pretty much are inter-changable. And the only difference between a LE and NE character was one was a mastermind type character, and the other was just extremely selfish. Not really a whole lot of difference.
At least with the update if you play a good, unaligned, or evil character you can have as much room as you want to choose how your character acts. Leaving the only true opposing alignments still in that actually were different from their counterparts they share in alignment. |
| ErskineF |
Posted - 23 Dec 2008 : 07:29:09
That's the best way to interpret it, but it doesn't completely square with having gods who elevate chaos to a cosmic force that must be worshipped. The alignments are tied into the structure of the multiverse in a way that suggests far more than just notions about societal rules. :)
|
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 23 Dec 2008 : 06:32:16
quote:
Originally posted by ranger_of_the_unicorn_run
I think chaos is used in a more social sense in D&D. Chaotic characters are not truly unpredictable, they simply stand for personal freedom taken to a higher degree than lawful or neutral characters. They don't follow societal rules, but they follow otherwise typical human (or demihuman) nature.
And that's pretty much my way of looking at it. |
