| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 26 Nov 2008 : 17:42:37
First of all, this is not a discussion about the 4E Realms. We've all aired our opinions of the post-1375 events, and we don't need to get into that yet again. It's already become monotonous, and I don't want to see another thread follow that well-trod path. I'll remove those posts, if I have to.
That out of the way... A while back, I created a thread asking What have you imported into the Realms?. The point of the thread (which was recently and briefly resurrected) was to discuss what people had brought into the Realms from other settings and other fiction. This obviously referred to people's own versions of the Realms.
This thread is a bit different... In this thread, I'd like to discuss people's own creations, and what of those creations they would -- if possible -- make official. In other words, if you created your own official Realmslore, what would it include?
Again, I don't want this to become another pro-/anti-4E discussion. This is an edition-neutral, entirely hypothetical chance to play in the official sandbox. 
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| 30 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 20 Apr 2021 : 12:59:18
quote:
Originally posted by keftiu
Worth sharing some quotes from the FRCG:
quote:
Red Wizards were once purveyors of magic items across Faerûn. However, civil war and the Spellplague spelled the end of Thay as a mercantile power. Where the Red Wizards were unpopular, the upheaval left their enclaves open to attack and destruction. Luckier Red Wizards were often cut off from their homeland. Many decided to stay abroad rather than return to a Thay ruled by Szass Tam.
The people of Thay still refer to the arcanists among them as Red Wizards, and only such mages are allowed to wear red within Thay. But a small confederacy of magic- item dealers calling themselves Red Wizards still exists as a trade concern. This organization is most powerful in the major coastal cities of the Sea of Fallen Stars, as well as in the Moonsea region—especially Mulmaster. It enjoys no protection from Thay. Most non-Thayan folk now equate “Red Wizard” with magic merchants rather than with Szass Tam’s sinister nation.
So those expatriates are canon, and apparently well-enough liked.
quote:
Exiled zulkirs, former wizard- rulers, have appeared in the already Thay-influenced Wizard’s Reach. As a result, Aglarond has been forced to recognize that Thay’s presence (expatriate or not) isn’t going to fade anytime soon. The chronic irritant of Thay galled Aglarond’s newly formed Simbarch Council beyond reason. The nation raised armies and took the fight to the exiled zulkirs. The war was long and fierce, and Aglarond suffered much. Having defeated the Aglarondan advance, the zulkirs-in-exile returned to Thay to proclaim their victory. The Thayan Regent, Szass Tam, rewarded them only with death. The zulkirs left behind admin- istrators and soldiers in the Wizard’s Reach, but in the chaos and confusion that followed the rulers’ deaths, Aglarond declared renewed sovereignty over the area. It remains to be seen whether the Thayan remnants will gainsay the Simbarch Council’s decla- ration without their former leaders.
So unless I’m misreading this, Wizard’s Reach is Aglarondan-held in the era.
Yep, Aglarond "claims" the area. Thay doesn't encroach it. Aglarond hasn't wiped them out. They still exist. As stated, my homebrew would have Laothkund returning, and while in Abeir it will have taken on "red wizards".
To note, my view of the returning city Laothkund and other surrounding cities (Lasdur, Taskaunt, Tilbrand, Teth.... forget which ones offhand would have also have gone to Abeir, would have to look at a map) is not one of "these guys are Thayans". Its actually that they accepted a magocracy (which the wizard's reach was under a magocracy under the rulership of the League of Samathar before Thay). This returning version of Laothkund was a large city with ties to a rebuilt city of Peleverai down in the Shaar (where a large number of other humans congregated after fleeing Unther, Chondath, Chessentan, and shining south cities that wholly or partially transferred to Abeir). Laothkund became a kind of "satellite" city for them with a significant population. Its population was composed of its own people, plus some fleeing under the leadership of their king Hercubes Jedea who fled in exile from Mordulkin. In addition, the former leader of the League of Samathar was released from an imprisonment spell as a result of the spellplague and began leading the city while on Abeir.
Meanwhile on Toril, after the death of Nevron, Zulkir of Conjuration, an efreeti priest of Kossuth actually brought another former Zulkir of Conjuration back to life... Sabass of Thay... because he NEEDED him for something and now with Nevron gone it wouldn't be a fight for the Zulkirship. Sabass is NOT your typical Zulkir. He was the leader of the Researchers faction in Thay during the 1e era, and he became Zulkir AFTER the salamander war was caused by another zulkir of conjuration who died and was deposed BEFORE the 2e Spellbound boxed set (so we never SAW him in his role, we only have records of what he was like prior to becoming Zulkir). I view Sabass as a calming influence over the expatriates red wizards in Escalant who could hold them together to some degree.
In addition to all this, we never actually see Zulkir Lallara Mediocros die AND we have that Zulkir Lauzoril "died" because he "stepped off a cliff" which is pretty hard to believe. So, my assumption is that it simply removed him from the battle for a while. He and Lallara were then entrapped in the "created world" until the sundering "frees" them.
So, all of this is to say, you have a group of returning folks who have heard for a century bogeyman stories of Szass Tam, as well as some Thayan expats who have been living in his shadow for a century. They transfer back, and as a result, they're now "in the line of fire" and essentially decide to try and change things. Meanwhile, within Thay itself, its noted that there's factions that are working against Tam in many of the adventures at the end of 4e. So, this group might INITIALLY work together, and maybe they end up recovering the lower half of the country or something. At some point in the future (which may take a decade or two mind you), they'll start to factionalize if the greater threat of Tam goes away.
I had started writing up some of this history a while back, but in it I had much different views I believe of Cimbar and Soorenar (i.e. I let the concept spread possibly too far). Still, if you are interested, here's the concept I had going then... and I may change bits. I've also vastly shrunk Peleverai's influence to a smaller area of the Shaar. I've got a whole story line about how there's two Lauzorils because ONE was in Toril, and ONE is a clone of Lauzoril that was awakened by a god in Abeir because his daughter served as the god's avatar in order to get his phylactery. So, the two Lauzoril's have had vastly different lives for a century (one with his family and loved ones, the other without).
In 1487 DR, Zulkirs Lauzoril Tavai and Lallara Mediocros suddenly reappeared and returned to the city of Escalant, blaming their nine year hiatus on the collapsing of an unstable demiplane. They found their former red wizard subjects in disarray. They quickly set themselves to the task of taking control of the city again, and after killing those who were foolish enough to stand in their way, their fellow red wizards soon accepted their command again. Their power was much diminished however, for without effective leadership, many of the red wizards of Escalant had either died in struggles for power or left seeking a new life. However, they found a Zulkir from a century past sitting in the seat of conjuration, for apparently Sabass of Thay, former Zulkir of Conjuration and leader of the Researchers political party, had returned to life somehow a few years following the “disappearance” of Zulkir Nevron.
A few days later, the nearby city of Laothkund which had supposedly been totally drowned beneath the waves of the Alamber sea taking a large part of the Wizard's Reach coastline with it, suddenly reappeared. Word also spread that many ruined and drowned cities of Chessenta, Unther, and Mulhorand had reappeared, but their populations had often changed noticeably. The nearby Chondalwood which had been a plagueland began to stabilize. The Underchasm had disappeared and a portion of the dwarven great rift had returned.
What was more surprising though was that the city of Laothkund had returned and was being led by red wizards. As the reports came in, it seemed that many of these returned places held red wizards. Lauzoril, Lallara, and Sabass, along with their own hastily formed retinue of soldiers and red wizards, soon visited the city of Laothkund, where they were escorted to meet Samathar Dulsaer, Aulkir of Transmutation of the tharch of Peleveran, and Hercubes Jedea, Aulkir of Evocation and King-in-exile of Mordulkin. While the three zulkirs were astonished to find the founder of the League of Samathar alive and well, nearly five centuries after his disappearance and its fall, it was in fact the citizens of Laothkund who were most bewildered by the visit. It soon became apparent why when they were brought into a private room and images began to appear in several crystal balls. Gradually the faces of many red wizards begain to appear. Many of the faces were ones that they had presumed dead, such as Zulkir Yaphyll Sirtula, Zulkir Mythrell'aa, and the “First Princess of Thay” Dmitra Flass. To Lauzoril's great joy, his two daughters, Mimuay and Nyasia, whom he had not seen for over a century were still alive, and moments later came the confusion as Lauzoril saw himself walk up and put his arms around his two daughters.
For Lauzoril, the act of seeing himself somewhere else immediately set off warning bells. Thoughts of shapeshifters, illusions, and other deceptive uses of magic filled his head. Thus, it was that he was surprised when his other self actually spoke first by saying, “Well, this is interesting.... apparently we finally have the answer to if the god of necromancy CAN duplicate a soul in separate timestreams. Either that, or I am actually going insane as some predicted would happen if we ever met. Either way, alavairthae, friend... or maybe I should call you brother? What exactly does one call an awakened clone of oneself when the two finally meet after a century apart, that is of course if the natural insanity doesn't kick in? Perhaps we should meet in private to discuss the activities of the past century, as I'm sure you'd love to get reacquainted with our daughters. They've both turned into such cherished treasures this past century, and Nyasia I can tell already would just love to chatter your ears off. Oh, and of course Lallara you are welcome as well, as I'm sure you and Dmitra would enjoy discussing past times. You should bring along that old goat Sabass as well I guess.”
Thus it was that the three Zulkirs found themselves down in the city of Upper Peleveran in the eastern Shaar, built atop the cliff's edge of the Landrise gorge where the reborn Cliffside City of Peleverai had been reestablished. Over the next few weeks, the story of the transfer to Abeir and subsequent involvement of the gods of magic in the saving of the red wizards, and the involvement of the red wizards in the saving of the gods in kind, was relayed. The story of the destruction of many of the cities of western Chessenta, and the need to expand in an environment surrounded by the forces of Karshimis the Tyrant, led into the story of their migration south into the eastern Shaar to the ruined city of Peleverai. They also relayed the negotiations that created an alliance between multiple remote trade enclaves, and even a hidden Netherese Flying Enclave amongst the Tears of Selune, to eventually form a new kind of Zulkirate known as the United Tharchs of Toril. While the tharch of Peleveran is perhaps its greatest tharch, there is no doubt that the majority of the strength of the conglomerate lay across the seas on the far flung continents of Maztica, Anchorome, and Katashaka.
Over the few months, the two groups shared much of what had happened over the past century on both worlds, but there was always a tension about which Lauzoril would remain Zulkir. It was actually the two Lauzoril's that worked this out between themselves, for they agreed to share the votes of an Aulkir and a Zulkir between them in national matters, but that in local matters to a tharch, each would be treated as a full Zulkir. This of course was dependent on the formation of a new tharch along the Wizard's Reach combining the power of the cities of Escalant and Laothkund. It was also agreed that some of the resources, including entire cities, of the tharch of Peleveran, would transfer their leadership to this new “Tharch of the Wizard's Reach”. In addition some red wizards of Escalant would take up roles of leadership. With all the upheaval it was agreed that rushing this transition could lead to disaster, and thus the transition into fully-fledged tharch has been being negotiated now for the last three years, and has only been finalized in the last few months.
In all, it looks like the Tharch of the Wizard's Reach consists of the cities of Laothkund, Escalant, Cimbar, and Soorenar, as well as the smaller villages of Tilbrand, Lasdur, Teth, and Taskaunt. However, it plans to expand, and these expansion plans are also what has taken so long to form this new Tharch. For instance, Aulkir Samathar wants to take over the city of Erebos, for it has become a symbol of Tchazzar's remaining might, and he would see all trace of the dragon turned god who imprisoned him destroyed. Meanwhile, Aulkir Hercubes Jedea and the entire Jedean clan would like to recapture their home city of Mordulkin, which is currently held by genasi once of Shyr. The Chessentan city of Toreus, meanwhile, has had its red wizard enclave infiltrated by Zulkir Lauzoril of Escalant, and many of its red wizards are helping with the local criminal organizations to hire pirates, mercenaries, and merchants to aid the capture of all of Mordulkin, Toreus, as well as the holdings around Watcher's Cape, including the mental subjugation of the heads of the Crimson Sea Maritime Priakos. But even though the ruling mages plot to seize new cities, the inhabitants of some of these cities, particularly Cimbar and Soorenar, do not desire being ruled by an even closer magocracy, and there is some whispering that they will return to local rulership much as their sister city of Akanax did several decades past. If they do so, some think that this may show weakness to their nearby Thayan neighbor, and so some red wizards recommend shoring up their own local defenses, especially now that Szass Tam sees a growing threat directly on his border.
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| keftiu |
Posted - 20 Apr 2021 : 05:21:27
Worth sharing some quotes from the FRCG:
quote:
Red Wizards were once purveyors of magic items across Faerûn. However, civil war and the Spellplague spelled the end of Thay as a mercantile power. Where the Red Wizards were unpopular, the upheaval left their enclaves open to attack and destruction. Luckier Red Wizards were often cut off from their homeland. Many decided to stay abroad rather than return to a Thay ruled by Szass Tam.
The people of Thay still refer to the arcanists among them as Red Wizards, and only such mages are allowed to wear red within Thay. But a small confederacy of magic- item dealers calling themselves Red Wizards still exists as a trade concern. This organization is most powerful in the major coastal cities of the Sea of Fallen Stars, as well as in the Moonsea region—especially Mulmaster. It enjoys no protection from Thay. Most non-Thayan folk now equate “Red Wizard” with magic merchants rather than with Szass Tam’s sinister nation.
So those expatriates are canon, and apparently well-enough liked.
quote:
Exiled zulkirs, former wizard- rulers, have appeared in the already Thay-influenced Wizard’s Reach. As a result, Aglarond has been forced to recognize that Thay’s presence (expatriate or not) isn’t going to fade anytime soon. The chronic irritant of Thay galled Aglarond’s newly formed Simbarch Council beyond reason. The nation raised armies and took the fight to the exiled zulkirs. The war was long and fierce, and Aglarond suffered much. Having defeated the Aglarondan advance, the zulkirs-in-exile returned to Thay to proclaim their victory. The Thayan Regent, Szass Tam, rewarded them only with death. The zulkirs left behind admin- istrators and soldiers in the Wizard’s Reach, but in the chaos and confusion that followed the rulers’ deaths, Aglarond declared renewed sovereignty over the area. It remains to be seen whether the Thayan remnants will gainsay the Simbarch Council’s decla- ration without their former leaders.
So unless I’m misreading this, Wizard’s Reach is Aglarondan-held in the era.
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| Zeromaru X |
Posted - 20 Apr 2021 : 02:19:59
IIRC, the Zulkir's army got expelled from the Wizard's Reach in the novel, as the Brotherhood of the Griffon was part of that army. This was all part of the Zulkir's plans, as they wanted to attack Thay in full. However, that army was nearly annihilated during their fight against the Thayan forces at the battle of Tyraturos (the battle against that golem that had So-Kehur's brain). The Brotherhood barely survived, and they were the lucky ones, so the surviving Zulkir's forces aren't a threat to anyone… at least in the 1478-1480 period. |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 20 Apr 2021 : 01:23:33
quote:
Originally posted by keftiu
Didn’t everyone in Wizard’s Reach get executed by Tam?
Not that I've seen. They retreated and the Zulkirs went in to take on Tam in a prepared extradimensional realm when Tam got screwed over by his flunky who started the ritual without him. In theory they were still there, just lacking their prior leadership. Some would have moved on. Then my personal homebrew would return Laothkund and the surrounding territories from Abeir rather than it "having been drowned when all the water drained from teh inner sea"  |
| keftiu |
Posted - 19 Apr 2021 : 01:22:28
Didn’t everyone in Wizard’s Reach get executed by Tam? |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 18 Apr 2021 : 23:52:49
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by keftiu
I should note that 4e had expat Thayan enclaves, mostly of Red Wizards who preferred being magic item merchants to being servants of a cruel Bane-worshipping lich.
Well, what I'm thinking of is members of Thayan enclaves that decide to break away from Thay entirely -- severing all connections to Thay, maybe even ditching the red robes. These would the Thayans that wouldn't go home, even if Szass Tam was thrown down.
Yeah, I agree with this very much. In my idea of the United Tharchs, its more the leadership that wants to "recover Thay", and at that they're more interested in just ousting Tam. However, SOME of the tharchs, primarily the newly formed tharch of the wizard's reach, is more interested in destabilizing "modern" Thay since they're right next to it. Everyone else grew up outside of Thay (and frankly grew up in Abeir and most on continents that are far flung from Faerun even), and only have stories from their great grandfathers to tell them about it. Meanwhile, they've already got a new home where they grew up, so the interest of say red wizards in Lopango or Katashaka for "recovering Thay" is nil to non-existent.
However, with the idea of like Mulmaster being a place where a Zulkir relocates, I could see him organizing the enclaves of the vast (and there is one in many of those cities) into something of a trade union that exists outside of Thayan control. Moreso since the master of the guild of foreign trade disappeared sometime within the last decade or so, the enclaves are in a bit of a flux at the time of 5e. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 18 Apr 2021 : 22:57:50
quote:
Originally posted by keftiu
I should note that 4e had expat Thayan enclaves, mostly of Red Wizards who preferred being magic item merchants to being servants of a cruel Bane-worshipping lich.
Well, what I'm thinking of is members of Thayan enclaves that decide to break away from Thay entirely -- severing all connections to Thay, maybe even ditching the red robes. These would the Thayans that wouldn't go home, even if Szass Tam was thrown down. |
| keftiu |
Posted - 18 Apr 2021 : 19:21:06
I should note that 4e had expat Thayan enclaves, mostly of Red Wizards who preferred being magic item merchants to being servants of a cruel Bane-worshipping lich. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 18 Apr 2021 : 17:30:02
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
quote:
Originally posted by keftiu
I think the Alamber Sea circa 4e is a really rich, diverse corner of the world, and I’d love to see how those politics shook out. Can High Imaskar prove they’re any better than their ancient predecessors? Does the military strength of Tymanther trump the economic power of Akanûl - or can they bury the hatchet? Can Aglarond - divided by elf/human, spellcaster/mundane, and native/immigrant tensions - survive what sure seems like an apocalyptic offensive from Thay? To say nothing of zooming out slightly and looking at places like Turmish, Impiltur, Thesk, and Rashemen, or digging into abolethic threats or the local Underdark.
It’s a glorious, messy powder keg, at the crossroads of ancient history and alien visitors, and I want to see what all of that playing out actually looks like.
I like the thoughts of it being a glorious messy powder keg, and my take on things would be to add more components and moving parts. In other words, less of a imperial type view of Thay, and more of a fractured Thay. For instance, the adventurer's league had some Zulkir who looked like a wrestler (yeah, odd picture, but..) who was seemingly building up power in Mulmaster. I'd have various high level spellcasters of Thay (and possibly fallen High Imaskar) joining together (possibly again with shadovar ex-patriots) to form new societies of arcanists. You also still had all these remote Thayan trade enclaves, but I'd bet half or more broke loyalty with Thay over the last century because just ten years prior they were still loyal to the rebels and the master of the guild of foreign trade. On top of all that, I would throw in my homebrew United Tharchs of Toril idea, but that might be overkill for some. Personally, I think it puts a great civil war front and center back in Thay, with the chance to unseat the person who basically turned a once flourishing land (from a purely plant growth perspective) into a wasteland.
Hmm. While I've promoted a longer-term Thayan civil war myself, your post does give me another idea: individuals or even whole enclaves that see what's going on at home, look at where they are now, and then decide they're done with the whole mess and just go independent.
Sure, an enclave that did that would lose its support and its status, but it still might be an interesting thing -- the expat Thayans simply set up shop elsewhere and find new supply sources. It could really be fun if this happened and then a new group was sent to re-establish the enclave.
That's not as likely as single expatriates, though. And even single ones aren't going to be that common, given that they'd likely face distrust from every angle, unless they moved elsewhere.
...Now I've got to figure out the Thayan expat NPC that just popped into my head. |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 18 Apr 2021 : 15:46:10
quote:
Originally posted by keftiu
I think the Alamber Sea circa 4e is a really rich, diverse corner of the world, and I’d love to see how those politics shook out. Can High Imaskar prove they’re any better than their ancient predecessors? Does the military strength of Tymanther trump the economic power of Akanûl - or can they bury the hatchet? Can Aglarond - divided by elf/human, spellcaster/mundane, and native/immigrant tensions - survive what sure seems like an apocalyptic offensive from Thay? To say nothing of zooming out slightly and looking at places like Turmish, Impiltur, Thesk, and Rashemen, or digging into abolethic threats or the local Underdark.
It’s a glorious, messy powder keg, at the crossroads of ancient history and alien visitors, and I want to see what all of that playing out actually looks like.
I like the thoughts of it being a glorious messy powder keg, and my take on things would be to add more components and moving parts. In other words, less of a imperial type view of Thay, and more of a fractured Thay. For instance, the adventurer's league had some Zulkir who looked like a wrestler (yeah, odd picture, but..) who was seemingly building up power in Mulmaster. I'd have various high level spellcasters of Thay (and possibly fallen High Imaskar) joining together (possibly again with shadovar ex-patriots) to form new societies of arcanists. You also still had all these remote Thayan trade enclaves, but I'd bet half or more broke loyalty with Thay over the last century because just ten years prior they were still loyal to the rebels and the master of the guild of foreign trade. On top of all that, I would throw in my homebrew United Tharchs of Toril idea, but that might be overkill for some. Personally, I think it puts a great civil war front and center back in Thay, with the chance to unseat the person who basically turned a once flourishing land (from a purely plant growth perspective) into a wasteland. |
| keftiu |
Posted - 18 Apr 2021 : 06:11:30
More broadly speaking about if they were fool enough to hand me the setting: no Second Sundering, no Mystra comes back, lean harder into gonzo weirdness (sky islands and spellscars aplenty), have firearms start to spread, the Chultan Peninsula is less devastated than it appears in 4e and 5e materials but still likely sees heavy revisions (though my pet idea that Samarach saw its populace transformed into Eberron-style changelings makes it in), cultural consultants and outside writers brought on to help with Shou, Chultan, Turami, Durpari, and Rashemi stuff (at the very least!), and more detail on Abeir, both pre-Spellplague and currently. I want a Realms that continues on from the things I like most about the edition I prefer, paired with more novelty and a better handle on diversity than I think the setting has ever had.
The 4e Realms were all about the fallout and aftershocks of a world-reshaping cataclysm, and the darkness that threatened the fragile things built on the ashes. I want to see more rebuilding and more new wonders, but also more terrible horrors imperiling them!
EDIT: Expand on some obscure lore sources and make East Rift a hub of adventure, if I’m getting really indulgent; it’s a that uncomfortably hosts refugee dwarves, free drow, and the church of Gond, which just has to be the coolest, weirdest place in Faerun. It never got the detail it deserved, especially regarding that dark elven community! |
| keftiu |
Posted - 18 Apr 2021 : 06:00:28
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by keftiu
I think the Alamber Sea circa 4e is a really rich, diverse corner of the world, and I’d love to see how those politics shook out. Can High Imaskar prove they’re any better than their ancient predecessors? Does the military strength of Tymanther trump the economic power of Akanûl - or can they bury the hatchet? Can Aglarond - divided by elf/human, spellcaster/mundane, and native/immigrant tensions - survive what sure seems like an apocalyptic offensive from Thay? To say nothing of zooming out slightly and looking at places like Turmish, Impiltur, Thesk, and Rashemen, or digging into abolethic threats or the local Underdark.
It’s a glorious, messy powder keg, at the crossroads of ancient history and alien visitors, and I want to see what all of that playing out actually looks like.
So if you were spinning out the official storyline of the Realms, how would you play all this out?
I think it depends on which of the two threats you find more interesting, between Thay and the Abolethic Sovereignty. I'd be more willing to run the Thay war campaign at my home table (play as Aglarondan partisans and foreign do-gooders trying to recruit regional powers to rally to their defense), but it's a little flat for actual canon.
More likely, that war starts to go hot - because aboleth allies and agents are stoking the fires in the region, trying to inflame tensions across the Alamber Sea. If the mortals are busy killing each other - Thay and Aglarond, Tymanther and Akanul, Chessenta and other Chessentans (and everyone else in the region, but especially High Imaskar...) - then they make weak foes and easy puppets.
Aglarond probably gets stomped by Thay, but becomes a total mire for the necromancers; while the war is easy, the insurrection Aglarondan holdouts offer (aided by Simbarch magic and old star elf portals to Faerie) proves frustratingly hard to stamp out. The cities are contentiously occupied, disparate and feuding resistance factions (the humans don't like the elves and half-elves, the mundanes don't like the spellcasters, the Thayan refugees are hated by cruel locals) who all hate Thay more than they hate one another - for now. Aglarond is thus a place for stories of resistance against empire, where desperate heroes fight every day to prevent their homeland fueling an undead zulkir's second swing at godhood. (For Pathfinder nerds, it's like a much more interesting Cheliax - replace the Asmodean zeal for Banite tyrants and egomaniacal liches).
Chessentan civil war is likely, and I think you end up with distinct factions between devout traditionalists and those willing to compromise on their view of arcane magic in order to win; I'm willing to bet these become considered distinct nations to outsiders.
Tymanther is feisty; I think they steal some important city and manage to hold it and their current borders well, but there's probably significant unrest internally. I really like the tension established between the main Thymari atheist and the recent Bahamut converts, and that latter group likely becomes a societal scapegoat - maybe we see a diaspora of devout dragonborn nomads across the region?
Akanul probably blossoms into the dominant economic power in the region, and I bet some states ally with their rising star against the threat of further Thayan expansion. Maybe some of those nice folks down in East Rift import some Gondsman-made firearms, purchased with the overflowing coffers of the genasi? Life in Akanul is probably the rosiest of the bunch, because they're the state most aware of and vigilant for the threat the aboleths pose, so their provocateurs are almost always sniffed out. You probably make one of those four advisory governors (whose title I forget) subverted by them anyway.
I'm a little too fatigued to take a swing at the rest of the nations, but you get the gist; a lot of strife, internally and externally, for almost everyone around. That's a juicy enough place to leave the region in a hypothetical edition change, and if we really need some resolution, then a novel trilogy or hardcover adventure details the exploits of some heroes from around the region chasing this abolethic conspiracy and getting the various nations to stand against their shared foe together. You probably get some very fun images of Thymari knights uncomfortably fighting alongside undead Red Wizards and Chessentan paladins of Tchazzar against some gross alien horrors in the later acts.
|
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 18 Apr 2021 : 05:20:03
quote:
Originally posted by keftiu
I think the Alamber Sea circa 4e is a really rich, diverse corner of the world, and I’d love to see how those politics shook out. Can High Imaskar prove they’re any better than their ancient predecessors? Does the military strength of Tymanther trump the economic power of Akanûl - or can they bury the hatchet? Can Aglarond - divided by elf/human, spellcaster/mundane, and native/immigrant tensions - survive what sure seems like an apocalyptic offensive from Thay? To say nothing of zooming out slightly and looking at places like Turmish, Impiltur, Thesk, and Rashemen, or digging into abolethic threats or the local Underdark.
It’s a glorious, messy powder keg, at the crossroads of ancient history and alien visitors, and I want to see what all of that playing out actually looks like.
So if you were spinning out the official storyline of the Realms, how would you play all this out? |
| keftiu |
Posted - 18 Apr 2021 : 02:44:41
I think the Alamber Sea circa 4e is a really rich, diverse corner of the world, and I’d love to see how those politics shook out. Can High Imaskar prove they’re any better than their ancient predecessors? Does the military strength of Tymanther trump the economic power of Akanûl - or can they bury the hatchet? Can Aglarond - divided by elf/human, spellcaster/mundane, and native/immigrant tensions - survive what sure seems like an apocalyptic offensive from Thay? To say nothing of zooming out slightly and looking at places like Turmish, Impiltur, Thesk, and Rashemen, or digging into abolethic threats or the local Underdark.
It’s a glorious, messy powder keg, at the crossroads of ancient history and alien visitors, and I want to see what all of that playing out actually looks like. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 18 Apr 2021 : 02:42:33
quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos
Anything by me!  
-- George Krashos
Your stuff is canon in Wooly's Realms. |
| George Krashos |
Posted - 18 Apr 2021 : 02:07:36
Anything by me!
-- George Krashos |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 17 Apr 2021 : 19:29:26
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
First of all, this is not a discussion about the 4E Realms. We've all aired our opinions of the post-1375 events, and we don't need to get into that yet again. It's already become monotonous, and I don't want to see another thread follow that well-trod path. I'll remove those posts, if I have to.
That out of the way... A while back, I created a thread asking What have you imported into the Realms?. The point of the thread (which was recently and briefly resurrected) was to discuss what people had brought into the Realms from other settings and other fiction. This obviously referred to people's own versions of the Realms.
This thread is a bit different... In this thread, I'd like to discuss people's own creations, and what of those creations they would -- if possible -- make official. In other words, if you created your own official Realmslore, what would it include?
Again, I don't want this to become another pro-/anti-4E discussion. This is an edition-neutral, entirely hypothetical chance to play in the official sandbox.
I was looking for something else, and stumbled on this discussion... I thought I would try to revive it, with the same basic parameters: No bashing editions or saying give it back to Ed or anything like that -- just a discussion on Realmslore created by us, the fans, that we would make official if given the chance. |
| Dalor Darden |
Posted - 06 Apr 2012 : 16:39:08
If I could make anything Canon:
I would place my version of Ixinos as the official.
The Shaar would officially be my "African Savannah"...I did so because to me Halruaa made a hard to miss South Africa. Some people say "The Realms has no racial stereotypes" and then I simply snicker and say words like "Kara-Tur" or "Hordelands" or "Mulhorand" or "Cormyr" or "Damara" and so on...
I've recently considered a variation of my own spell plague; but it only afflicts those who are highly powerful. I thought about the fact that it would allow me to save the ones I want...and the armies of Arch-Mages I didn't want would have "missed their saving throw" so to speak. While I like the high magic of the Realms, I always thought that it was magic rich from thousands of years of magic being created/worked and it didn't mean there was a magic shop on every corner of major cities.
There are other things, but those stick out to me right now. |
| gomez |
Posted - 06 Apr 2012 : 16:03:49
If I had a say, I would carefully go over a number of things written for LFR and incorporate that, in addition to adding a few minor fixes to the current setting. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 06 Apr 2012 : 14:34:45
Okay, bringing up the original post...
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
First of all, this is not a discussion about the 4E Realms. We've all aired our opinions of the post-1375 events, and we don't need to get into that yet again. It's already become monotonous, and I don't want to see another thread follow that well-trod path. I'll remove those posts, if I have to.
That out of the way... A while back, I created a thread asking What have you imported into the Realms?. The point of the thread (which was recently and briefly resurrected) was to discuss what people had brought into the Realms from other settings and other fiction. This obviously referred to people's own versions of the Realms.
This thread is a bit different... In this thread, I'd like to discuss people's own creations, and what of those creations they would -- if possible -- make official. In other words, if you created your own official Realmslore, what would it include?
Again, I don't want this to become another pro-/anti-4E discussion. This is an edition-neutral, entirely hypothetical chance to play in the official sandbox.
|
| Ayrik |
Posted - 06 Apr 2012 : 06:18:31
Casting time for most spells in AD&D 2E are given in Segments, the usual assumption is one spell can be cast per Round. There are some spells with casting times given as full Rounds or longer time units (these usually aren't cast during combat). There are a few (high-powered) spells and artifacts which could allow a wizard or priest to cast two or more spells in the same Round, presumably resolved in combat much like a warrior's multiple attacks. It is possible for contingency and similar magics to release or trigger precast spells, effectively allowing multiple spells to be cast in the same Round under certain conditions. A variant rules system from the "2.5E" Options books could allow 0-level spells (cantrips, cantras, orisons) to be cast as a "free action" in addition to a character's normal actions, which might include casting a normal spell.
But why argue? The basics are all in the AD&D 2E PHB. And it's off-topic anyhow ... aside from noting that other spellcasting rules (from other D&D games) do exist and have sometimes been forcibly impressed into Realmslore. So perhaps I'll revoke my earlier statement ... I actually think the most important change in the Realms involves the attitude that it's always possible to blow up some gods and reformat the setting to make it more compatible with the current D&D game cognate. This should be reversed: when there are incompatibilities it is the game rules which need to be reformatted to fit within a consistent setting (any setting, not just the Realms). We don't reformat our own universe every time a newer and better physics is developed to describe it. |
| Dalor Darden |
Posted - 06 Apr 2012 : 05:47:17
Give me the Realms?
Restart...from the get-go.
If they don't think it works...maybe they should look at all those wonderful movies like Star Trek, Batman, Spider-Man...and even comics like the Marvel Ultimates.
A complete re-boot also allows them to move forward again with all new products...not reprints, not expansions on...but all new ideas.
At the same time, I would continue on with the 4e onward line for those who enjoy that.
This would allow anyone to play any edition they wanted really. My plan would also continue sales of earlier editions of the games, with Advanced Dungeons and Dragons first (which they are already doing) and then 2nd Advanced Dungeons and Dragons the next year, then 3.5 the next year...with a cycle going back and re-printing special books from each rules set that sold best before. Leather-bound does fairly well; but I would print them as simple hard-backs.
Just my way. |
| Markustay |
Posted - 06 Apr 2012 : 04:18:49
quote:
Originally posted by Eilserus
Wait a minute. You could cast more than one spell per round as a caster in 2nd edition? Man we were playing wrong, hah. We only allowed 1 spell per round. Considering how nasty wizards got at around 8 or 9th level, I can't imagine blasting off like 3 fireballs per round. Was this multiple spells per round tied to spellcasting segments? I always thought they were like weapon speeds, basically only useful for finding out who won initiative.
No - most spells took multiple rounds.
That was my point; the D&D system doesn't make mages faster - shouldn't they be just like fighters? getting off more 'shots' quicker as they level? Isn't that what 'experienced' means? D&D just keeps making them cast stronger spells. This is a LOT of unnecessary baggage, and leads to an 'arms race' mentality of bigger-is-better. At the same time, HP must scale to ridiculous levels to account for the stronger spells and what-not being flung around.
If everything is scaling to account for everything else, doesn't this fall under the purview of 'diminishing returns'? I f you use ratio and proportion, a 1st level fighter can do an instant-kill on a 1st level mage, but a 20th level fighter (usually) can't do an instant-kill on a 20th level mage. The same thing works the other way around, with the mage casting a spell. Doesn't that mean that a 1st level mage or fighter is proportionately more powerful then a 20th level mage or fighter? Isn't a rule system odd if you are at your deadliest the moment you start playing, and then it goes down hill from there?
D&D focuses on the escalating math, when it should be focusing on experience - an experienced gunslinger outshoots a 'greenhorn' every time, because he is more experienced. But the bullets - and the men's 'health' (HP) - remain the same for both... D&D has it all wrong.
A 5th level mage should be killed by a 10th level mage not because he was hit with a bigger fireball, but rather, because the 10th level mage shot his fireball before the other mage ever finished his spell. Exponentially increasing numbers just makes the system 'top heavy', IMHO.
But this is supposed to be an FR thread, not a D&D thread. Earlier when I read the title of this thread, the first thing that sprung to mind was that song, "If I had a rocket launcher..." (you know the rest)
But seriously, if I somehow gained control, I would simply give the whole thing a 'soft' reset back to the 1350's, WITHOUT invalidating anything. Not because thats the best thing for the Realms, but rather, I think that would be the least-damaging compromise (great word, compromise) moving forward. Everyone restarts (with 5e rules) on equal footing.
Starting in the 4e+ era just means the 4e people already have a leg up on the old guard, which only exacerbates an existing problem. [sarcasm]I'd have to pour through tons and TONS of 4e lore to be able to run the damn thing, and we all know how much we hate to read and do research.[/sarcasm]
The only way it could possibly be fair (moving the timeline forward even further) would be if they set it so far into the future that no-one even recognizes it.* Otherwise, its not fair. A rebooted setting (according to the 4e manifesto) should not leave anyone knowing more about the setting then anyone else, so all of the 4e lore either needs to be gotten rid of, or outdated by even newer, funkier lore. Anything less then a TOTAL wipe = the 4.5e setting, leaving one group with far more knowledge then the other. That makes it a complete unplayable mess (those 4e players now have "feelings of entitlement") for anyone without all that information. How can your run a game without going out and buying dozens of old-edition sourcebooks? I can't be bothered learning all that! 4e is just TOO HARD!
*Now, if time is circular, then the 1350's still work. |
| Ayrik |
Posted - 06 Apr 2012 : 03:24:54
I agree that mages and fighters are often unbalanced at higher levels. When looking over all the High-And-Mighty-NPCs-of-the-Realms, people immediately appraise power and levels as a spellcaster - while fighter levels are only a secondary consideration, and only when the NPC is packing tons of magical firepower or is leading armies with the same.
The so-called sweet spot is a bit higher for mages, since (in older D&D gaming, at least) these guys had pathetic hit points at low levels, could be cut down quickly in melee, and not enough spells to wear an arsenal of defensive magics. It seems like most people select a mage and immediately expect they'll be level 20 in no time, forgetting that they'll be at the mercy of a lot of rats and kobolds before ever casting their first stoneskin.
For me what broke the game, and thus quickly broke the Realms setting evolving through the game, are the everybody-and-anything unrestricted super-multiclass builds and templates*. I see this as changing the nature of the game away from characters with roles ... towards characters as brightly colourful but interchangeable play tokens. To me a Realms setting filled with all these characters is like a chessboard filled with nothing but queens, nobody wants to play the knights and bishops and rooks which actually define the game with complexity - it's still played on the same board and even looks like chess at a glance ... but it's not, it's only a cartoony parody of chess. To me the Realms aren't a D&D setting anymore, they're a circus freakshow. My changes to the Realms would drastically remove all the multiclassed powerbuilds, lowly PCs and great NPCs alike would all have very real strengths and weaknesses imposed by their classes, they wouldn't be very great at all unless they work together.
* A vampiric moon-elf/abyssal-genasi ranger/warlock/diviner/spellsniper as a PC? Why sure of course, she'll make a fine ally for the gold-dwarf/half-golem crusader/berserker/ironballs/samurai, along with their half-halfling and double-wookie squires (actually, squire/acrobat/bard/wildmage and squire/ninja/slayer/alchemist).
Not even deities in early D&D had this many race and class bonuses going for them. |
| Eilserus |
Posted - 06 Apr 2012 : 02:15:54
Wait a minute. You could cast more than one spell per round as a caster in 2nd edition? Man we were playing wrong, hah. We only allowed 1 spell per round. Considering how nasty wizards got at around 8 or 9th level, I can't imagine blasting off like 3 fireballs per round. Was this multiple spells per round tied to spellcasting segments? I always thought they were like weapon speeds, basically only useful for finding out who won initiative. |
| Markustay |
Posted - 05 Apr 2012 : 23:38:59
I'd say any spell with a casting time of less then 3 days is "munchkinized'.
Have I mentioned I dislike spellcasters? 
Almost as much as elves...
Anyhow, multi-phase spells are an integral part of D&D for me - I think mages are far too over-powered as it is, and need a little nerfing. My own system I am working-on has combat rounds but no turns (which is proving to be a bear), and if I ever get it right it should balance spellcasters with fighters nicely (since fighters get multiple strikes, each should land in a separate round).
Right now I have chart I place down the side of my gaming-table, which I put tokens on (representing the PCs), and move these along the chart to denote the passage of rounds (which roughly equal about 3 seconds). Everyone gets the same number of (level-dependent) actions, and how they use them - spellcasting or swinging a sword - depends on their class (I'm also moving away from classes, but that's another discussion). Ergo, using my system, a higher level mage should be able to fire-off multiple spells in a single 'turn' (which becomes a fairly meaningless concept, when certain actions carry-over into the next set of rounds - its more like real-time combat).
The first thing I have to do after I finish my system is write an APP for that - it would be so much smoother if i didn't have to have a physical chart on the side (I've even tried pegs and a pegboard, which gets rather cumbersome with more then four players). Imagine a phone-app that keeps track of when each thing 'goes off' in a combat - spells, strikes, effects wear-off, etc... neat, huh?
Initiative becomes simplicity itself - you just roll a die and thats the point at which you start on the chart (other options, like weapon speed, can also be folded-in).
What this mans is that as a mage gets more powerful, he become faster, which means he can get-off more spells quicker. this also solves the problem of 'bigger is better' - mages spell don't really increase in power all that much - they just get to use them more often. A 5th level mage casting one fireball isn't going to stand a chance against a 15th level mage casting the same fireball three times in the same turn.
I've been saying this for some time now - the logic behind D&D is faulty. PCs should advance in ability by giving them more options, not more raw power. This is why we wind-up with a 'sweet spot' in our campaigns. Under my system, people of every level can adventure together (which is a lot more useful, IMO, then their model of "people using different rules can play together").
The codename for my system is 'Sexy', BTW, which is really just a play on '6e' (which has the meaning that my system is already better then 5e).
C'mon - you can see it now - everyone down at the LGS asking, "who wants to play the sexy system?" The thing practically sells itself!  |
| Diffan |
Posted - 04 Apr 2012 : 21:56:29
So I've been reading up on various other RPG systems and as I watch Record of Lodoss War, I see that they used Fuzion. This entices me to read further sources on Fuzion and download a crap ton of PDFs for the system. I generally like it as I've always done Level/class based systems and its someithing new. But then I read Atomik Magick and my excitement dropped. Multiple-Phase (or turn) casting *blech*. I understand this was normal back in the day, especially in 2nd D&D but I've been spoiled and if I ever want to get my group to try this, its got togo. So how unbalanced would it be to make the spells with a casting time of 1-phase (1-turn)? |
| Chosen of Asmodeus |
Posted - 10 May 2011 : 15:42:43
quote:
Originally posted by Firestorm
quote:
Originally posted by RedneckBadgerLord
Really the anti-revision sentiment has always been there. When AD&D came out, I'd bet the farm there were a few OD&D dissenters, same with AD&D:Revised AD&D and RAD&D:3e. There are always traditionalists, and there are always people who believe tradition should change. Myself I'm a traditionalist, but I'd at least try to correct some things that make little sense.
4e has some great ideas , but they are very poorly executed in places.
Besides It isn't really FR who needs saving from Wizards, it's they who need saving from Hasbro. But I digress.
I'd try to make the newer stuff coincide with the older stuff.
For Instance:
Why not make the World tree perpendicular to the great wheel in the cosmology? That way, the places like Sigil, Greyhawk, etc. would still be around to fill in some of the 3e plotholes (i.e. Khelben the younger).
Why not say that Mystra is comatose, but that all but a select few believe her dead. This way, she'll bounce right back in a few hundered years, and this explains why people are beginning to be able to do magic after the timeskip. Speaking of ...
Why the timeskip? I mean, chaos is realms standard
As for the books, why kill off so many interesting characters? I mean Ryld Argith, Qilue, KHELBEN, Sammaster, Simbul; to say nothing of what happened to Cadderly, Regism and Catti-brie.
For which, I won't be reading another Bob Salvatore book for a while.
I have nothing against 4e as a system (I mean, there are hundereds out there, ever try running the realms in Fuzion anyone ?), but the story element could stand to be fleshed out.
Well, you are missing out then. Gauntlegrym was Salvatore's best work in a while.
I don't necessarily disagree with that, but would hardly call it a compliment.
|
| Firestorm |
Posted - 10 May 2011 : 15:23:36
quote:
Originally posted by RedneckBadgerLord
Really the anti-revision sentiment has always been there. When AD&D came out, I'd bet the farm there were a few OD&D dissenters, same with AD&D:Revised AD&D and RAD&D:3e. There are always traditionalists, and there are always people who believe tradition should change. Myself I'm a traditionalist, but I'd at least try to correct some things that make little sense.
4e has some great ideas, but they are very poorly executed in places.
Besides It isn't really FR who needs saving from Wizards, it's they who need saving from Hasbro. But I digress.
I'd try to make the newer stuff coincide with the older stuff.
For Instance:
Why not make the World tree perpendicular to the great wheel in the cosmology? That way, the places like Sigil, Greyhawk, etc. would still be around to fill in some of the 3e plotholes (i.e. Khelben the younger).
Why not say that Mystra is comatose, but that all but a select few believe her dead. This way, she'll bounce right back in a few hundered years, and this explains why people are beginning to be able to do magic after the timeskip. Speaking of ...
Why the timeskip? I mean, chaos is realms standard
As for the books, why kill off so many interesting characters? I mean Ryld Argith, Qilue, KHELBEN, Sammaster, Simbul; to say nothing of what happened to Cadderly, Regism and Catti-brie.
For which, I won't be reading another Bob Salvatore book for a while.
I have nothing against 4e as a system (I mean, there are hundereds out there, ever try running the realms in Fuzion anyone?), but the story element could stand to be fleshed out.
Well, you are missing out then. Gauntlegrym was Salvatore's best work in a while.
|
| RedneckBadgerLord |
Posted - 10 May 2011 : 14:32:36
Really the anti-revision sentiment has always been there. When AD&D came out, I'd bet the farm there were a few OD&D dissenters, same with AD&D:Revised AD&D and RAD&D:3e. There are always traditionalists, and there are always people who believe tradition should change. Myself I'm a traditionalist, but I'd at least try to correct some things that make little sense.
4e has some great ideas, but they are very poorly executed in places.
Besides It isn't really FR who needs saving from Wizards, it's they who need saving from Hasbro. But I digress.
I'd try to make the newer stuff coincide with the older stuff.
For Instance:
Why not make the World tree perpendicular to the great wheel in the cosmology? That way, the places like Sigil, Greyhawk, etc. would still be around to fill in some of the 3e plotholes (i.e. Khelben the younger).
Why not say that Mystra is comatose, but that all but a select few believe her dead. This way, she'll bounce right back in a few hundered years, and this explains why people are beginning to be able to do magic after the timeskip. Speaking of ...
Why the timeskip? I mean, chaos is realms standard
As for the books, why kill off so many interesting characters? I mean Ryld Argith, Qilue, KHELBEN, Sammaster, Simbul; to say nothing of what happened to Cadderly, Regism and Catti-brie.
For which, I won't be reading another Bob Salvatore book for a while.
I have nothing against 4e as a system (I mean, there are hundereds out there, ever try running the realms in Fuzion anyone?), but the story element could stand to be fleshed out. |
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