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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36805 Posts |
 Posted - 26 Nov 2008 : 17:42:37
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First of all, this is not a discussion about the 4E Realms. We've all aired our opinions of the post-1375 events, and we don't need to get into that yet again. It's already become monotonous, and I don't want to see another thread follow that well-trod path. I'll remove those posts, if I have to.
That out of the way... A while back, I created a thread asking What have you imported into the Realms?. The point of the thread (which was recently and briefly resurrected) was to discuss what people had brought into the Realms from other settings and other fiction. This obviously referred to people's own versions of the Realms.
This thread is a bit different... In this thread, I'd like to discuss people's own creations, and what of those creations they would -- if possible -- make official. In other words, if you created your own official Realmslore, what would it include?
Again, I don't want this to become another pro-/anti-4E discussion. This is an edition-neutral, entirely hypothetical chance to play in the official sandbox. 
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36805 Posts |
Posted - 26 Nov 2008 : 17:55:52
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To start the show...
I'd make some of my NPCs official. One or two of my Lords would definitely become official -- likely either Sierkan Dahl (because I like his backstory the best and would love to see some of its elements become official, and because it also revisits the Alias clones) or Terielle Nashirn (who was perhaps my favorite of the four I wrote up).
Some of the NPCs from my Hooks would also become official. Alariel Snowlark, because I like her name and concept. Jalyk Bluefeather, because I see him as being a descendent of Xvim. The late Renler Arlsdane, because there's something about that grumpy git that I love (he was inspired by a former coworker!). Rune Copperbold, because I love the name and concept. Andulin Hollowthorn, because I find the concept of a halfling assassin amusing. And of course, Halyn Aleanoth and his companions Celaessa Leiunara (her name was inspired by the name of the goddess Selūne, since she's a moon elf) and the animated sword Keilevaryn (because that's just such a cool concept!). For some reason I really like Halyn Aleanoth, and that's why he's been revisited at least once in my Hooks.
Also coming from my Hooks, I'd make the falcat official. I love griffons, and the falcat hooks were inspired by the thought of having a miniature griffon as a pet (unfortunately, the name "falcat" didn't occur to me until long after I'd done the first Hook about "grifflings"). Since I so like the idea of mini-griffons as pets, I'd make them official, and would likely have them starting to spread out from Waterdeep. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Nerfed2Hell
Senior Scribe
USA
387 Posts |
Posted - 26 Nov 2008 : 18:25:40
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| If the Realms were mine, I'd commission a lot more official lore concerning churches and cults of the various dieties (and other powers) of the Realms... and maybe see that updates are taken care of for those ignored areas, such as Kara-tur, Zakhara, and yes, even Maztica. |
Some people are like a slinky... not good for much, but when you push them down the stairs, it makes you smile. |
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MerrikCale
Senior Scribe
USA
947 Posts |
Posted - 26 Nov 2008 : 19:47:30
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| I had Nesme in their dire straits throw their lot in with a band of knights who defeated the giants/trolls constantly harassing them. The knights, the Dhorgal Nath, were actually all vampires. They claimed to be in service to Selune which was why the did all of their business at night |
When hinges creak in doorless chambers and strange and frightening sounds echo through the halls, whenever candlelights flicker where the air is deathly still, that is the time when ghosts are present, practicing their terror with ghoulish delight. |
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Brimstone
Great Reader
USA
3287 Posts |
Posted - 26 Nov 2008 : 19:53:18
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-Thats a good one Merrick. I may just have to steal it. 
BRIMSTONE  |
"These things also I have observed: that knowledge of our world is
to be nurtured like a precious flower, for it is the most precious
thing we have. Wherefore guard the word written and heed
words unwritten and set them down ere they fade . . . Learn
then, well, the arts of reading, writing, and listening true, and they
will lead you to the greatest art of all: understanding."
Alaundo of Candlekeep |
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Lemernis
Senior Scribe
378 Posts |
Posted - 26 Nov 2008 : 20:46:38
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Well, I'd make canon the book-sized amount of lore I wrote for Amn just following the Sythillisian invasion of 1370. That is roughly the time period that interests me. I prefer elaborating upon the Realms of that period rather than the Realms that we find in later editions.
Table of contents for the material I wrote on Amn:
quote:
Section I - An Overview of Amnian Society
Social Values
Wealth and Social Status
Class Structure
Display of Wealth and a Love of Luxury
The Importance of Gift Giving
Haggling
Oral History
Religious Tolerance
Racial Bigotry
- Halflings
- Half-Orcs
- Other Races
Hostility Toward Arcane Magic
Strong Investment in Divine Magic
The Council of Six
- Meisarch
- Tessarch
- Namarch
- Iltarch
- Pommarch
- Dahaunarch
Merchant Families and Lordship
Mercantile Houses
Guilds
Local Government
The Law
A Land of Regulations, Licences, Fees, Tariffs, and Taxes
The Ten Most Powerful Families
City - Type of Controlling Interests - Specific Families (Primary; Seconday)
Merchant Family Relationships
Families - Trade Interests; Assets
Major Family Alliances
Major Family - Enemies
Amn's Merchant Economy
- High Wealth Equals High Spending
Racial Bigotry and Business/Social Opportunity
Gift Items
The Marketplace
Money Lending
Investment Abroad
Local Businesses
Section II - Social and Political Organization of Amn
The Council of Six and its Local Officials
- The Six Local Positions
--Local Office of the Meisarch: 'Sub-Councilor of the Meisarch'
--Local Office of the Tessarch: 'Sub-Councilor of the Tessarch'
--Local Office of the Iltarch: 'Sub-Councilor of the Iltarch'
--Local Office of the Namarch: 'Sub-Councilor of the Namarch'
--Local Office of the Pommarch: 'Sub-Councilor of the Pommarch'
--Local Office of the Dahaunarch: 'Sub-Councilor of the Dahaunarch'
Merchant Families
Lordship and Family Houses
- Full Memberhsip within a House
- The Internal Structure of a Family House
- House Affiliates
Greater and Lesser Families
The Merchant Family House's Relationship to the Community
The Merchant Families' Relationship with the Council of Six
The Underclass
The Shadow Thieves
- Secrecy
- Hierarchy
- The Shadow Council
- The Cloakmasters
- The Guildmasters
- The Silhouettes
- The Rank and File
- Shadow Thieves' Relationship with Other Local Powers
City Government
Mercantile Houses
Guilds
- Guild Charters
- Guild Membership
- Rural Guilds
- Benefits of Guild Membership
Clergy
Foreign Trade Emisarries
In this work I wrote a very detailed description of the conquered city of Esmeltaran, co-occupied by the Sythillisian monster races and human Cyricists of the Twin Towers of the Eternal Eclipse. And a lengthy section on the Amnian social structure that I'm rather pleased with. (If anyone is interested I can make a .pdf of all this available.)
And I eventually would like to apply the same approach to the Shining South more, certain regions of which I find very captivating. In particular, the city-state of Ormpur, the Shaar, Halruaa, and some of the nations on the Golden Water.
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Edited by - Lemernis on 27 Nov 2008 11:06:07 |
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Alisttair
Great Reader
Canada
3054 Posts |
Posted - 26 Nov 2008 : 21:34:53
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| If it were mine, I would have more Arcane Age stuff released. Dwarves of Delzoun would be a product, there would be one on Athalantar, and there would be a lot more products about ancient Netheril. Heck, something I made (which I hope will see the light of day in a Candlekeep Compendium) about Anauria would be official also |
Karsite Arcanar (Most Holy Servant of Karsus)
Anauria - Survivor State of Netheril as penned by me:
http://www.dmsguild.com/m/product/172023 |
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Alisttair
Great Reader
Canada
3054 Posts |
Posted - 26 Nov 2008 : 21:35:43
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| Oh and Bane would be Xvim in disguise. |
Karsite Arcanar (Most Holy Servant of Karsus)
Anauria - Survivor State of Netheril as penned by me:
http://www.dmsguild.com/m/product/172023 |
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Kilvan
Senior Scribe
Canada
894 Posts |
Posted - 26 Nov 2008 : 21:47:38
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quote:
Originally posted by Alisttair
Oh and Bane would be Xvim in disguise.
I did just that too. |
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3743 Posts |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 26 Nov 2008 : 22:07:08
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I'd make some of my NPCs official.
I think it's safe to say a lot of people would, myself included. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36805 Posts |
Posted - 26 Nov 2008 : 22:11:25
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quote:
Originally posted by Kilvan
quote:
Originally posted by Alisttair
Oh and Bane would be Xvim in disguise.
I did just that too.
I'm more than a little convinced that Bane really is Xvim in disguise. But yeah, that is something else I would make official. |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31777 Posts |
Posted - 26 Nov 2008 : 23:18:36
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I've always liked the campaign opportunities revolving around the notion of exploring the possibility that Xvim is simply wearing Bane's form.
Of course, I also like the idea, and something that I've tinkered with in my own campaign, that Xvim tricked a slowly re-emerging Bane into reconstituting himself too quickly, and then subsumed him entirely [or as much as Xvim could subsume]. Kinda like the way Stryfe bested Apocalypse just after Apocalypse had been [prematurely] raised from his resurrection sleep during the X-Cutioner's Song.
In this scenario, Bane was still too weak to properly resist Xvim's efforts to siphon off the Black Lord's power. And as Bane reconstitued himself more and more, he was also losing that power directly to Xvim. So that when all those worshippers of Iyachtu Xvim had the dream where they saw him split apart and Bane emerge from within [Midwinter night of 1372 DR], I'd also allow for the small populations of lingering Banite worshippers to also experience this dream. Thus, what emerged from Xvim's fractured form wasn't actually Bane, but a Xvim-wearing-Bane's-form -- in essence, Xvim had been reborn using a combination of both his own divine power and the reconstituted divine essence of Bane.
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Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3743 Posts |
Posted - 26 Nov 2008 : 23:47:19
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| -Maybe because I "came to the game" long after Bane had been killed, replaced by Xvim, and then reborn again, replacing Xvim, but I never much understood the allure that he has. Same thing with Bhaal, and to a lesser degree, Myrkul (though, of the two, Myrkul is certainly interesting in and of himself). |
(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know)
Elves of Faerūn
Vol I- The Elves of Faerūn
Vol. III- Spells of the Elves
Vol. VI- Mechanical Compendium |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36805 Posts |
Posted - 27 Nov 2008 : 00:23:46
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quote:
Originally posted by Dagnirion
-Maybe because I "came to the game" long after Bane had been killed, replaced by Xvim, and then reborn again, replacing Xvim, but I never much understood the allure that he has. Same thing with Bhaal, and to a lesser degree, Myrkul (though, of the two, Myrkul is certainly interesting in and of himself).
I've always thought Xvim had more style than Bane, who usually strikes me as an evil-for-evil's-sake type. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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UNSpacy
Seeker
France
78 Posts |
Posted - 27 Nov 2008 : 00:40:56
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If the Realms were mine, I'd create a nation that was once Cormyr, Sembia, Netheril, Thay, Aglarond, High Imaskar, Rashemen, the Dales, Myth Drannor, Impiltur, and Vesperin---the Riedran Empire.
Props to those who know what I'm referring to. |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31777 Posts |
Posted - 27 Nov 2008 : 01:03:59
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quote:
Originally posted by UNSpacy
If the Realms were mine, I'd create a nation that was once Cormyr, Sembia, Netheril, Thay, Aglarond, High Imaskar, Rashemen, the Dales, Myth Drannor, Impiltur, and Vesperin---the Riedran Empire.
Props to those who know what I'm referring to.
The empire of the same name that's located on the continent of Sarlona in EBERRON? |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4211 Posts |
Posted - 27 Nov 2008 : 03:51:03
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Personally, I have a few things I would bring to the table:
I think Mulhorand and Unther are far past their prime. Either they need to be conquered by an outsider or "get with the times" so to speak. I think Semphar is as close to the Turks as we are going to find...so I always think they would make a good empire.
On the other hand, if Thay got its act together they would make a good empire builder...if they could get rid of the current system of anarchic government and maybe become a Empire.
Cormyr is far past due for some Imperialism...all I can say really about that.
Lots of you have said things about Bane, I would actually rather see Cyric gone...I never liked that guy. I would bring a true Holy War with Bane's Church vs. Cyric's Church...and I'd have Bane win.
I never thought it was ok for Bane to be permanently killed off anyway. Torm was doing his business...and so was Bane. He was attempting to become the ultimate Tyrant by usurping Ao's power and becoming the undisputed Lord of the FR.
Yeah, I kinda like Bane...but ultimately he is too shallow and not a proper "Lord" of Evil. I would bring into being a King of Evil to be Shar's equal...more calculating than Bane, and one desiring more than the end of things like Shar.
In general, I always thought the Evil Gods of Faerun (because they were drawn too deeply into the setting's novels) lost their allure. They have no mystery or secrets. The expression: "Better the devil you know than the devil you don't" is very true. The evil gods of the FR are too soft for my taste. That wasn't always true...when I first read of Bane, Myrkul and others I thought they were solid evil gods...but I guess they have to be more "PG" for the masses.
All the time I have. |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3743 Posts |
Posted - 27 Nov 2008 : 04:24:37
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| -Bane is very straight forward, I do tend to agree, but I think a lot of his "problems" can be alleviated when people keep in mind the "problems" with the Zhentarim. People, generally, seem to be more than willing to ignore the silliness that sometimes happens involving the Zhentarim, because TSR had their "Evil cannot triumph" policy, and very much painted certain Zhents as keystone kops and oafs. Likewise, Bane was "altered" by TSR using the same exact policy. People often seem to be willing to write off some of the more...oafish (I like that word) portrayals of the Zhents, and I think the same should be done of Bane. Just like the Zhents, sans said TSR policy, were bad (using both the actual meaning, and the slang), Bane was also bad. |
(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know)
Elves of Faerūn
Vol I- The Elves of Faerūn
Vol. III- Spells of the Elves
Vol. VI- Mechanical Compendium |
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Laerrigan
Learned Scribe
USA
195 Posts |
Posted - 27 Nov 2008 : 04:53:13
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I'd commission Lemernis to detail my history.
The whole making-NPCs-official thing is definitely appealing. I have a LN blue wyrm whose life I would love to some day play out, and make him an official fixture in Calishite society. He masquerades as an elf, is a superb silversmith (and a great dancer and harpist), bears an air of unassailable dignity/grace/honor in the midst of the deceit and perversion around him, and tirelessly fights the slave industry on battlefronts both physical and societal. And eats the slavers he slaughters. And turns loose in the desert the slaves he frees from caravans, because what happens to them once they're free isn't his concern---they're now a part of the food chain (after all, sentient creatures are the finest prey and should be free to roam with dignity, not shackled and beaten and worked to death as property). I really get a kick out of his mass slaughter and dark sense of humor coupled with an active preservation of art and grace in any form (he reveres elven culture and views on art). |
"Your 'reality,' sir, is lies and balderdash, and I'm delighted to say that I have no grasp of it whatsoever." (Baron Munchausen)
"If I find in myself a desire which no experience in this world can satisfy, the most probable explanation is that I was not made for this world." (C.S. Lewis, "Surprised by Joy") |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36805 Posts |
Posted - 27 Nov 2008 : 06:59:22
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quote:
Originally posted by Laerrigan
I'd commission Lemernis to detail my history.
The whole making-NPCs-official thing is definitely appealing. I have a LN blue wyrm whose life I would love to some day play out, and make him an official fixture in Calishite society. He masquerades as an elf, is a superb silversmith (and a great dancer and harpist), bears an air of unassailable dignity/grace/honor in the midst of the deceit and perversion around him, and tirelessly fights the slave industry on battlefronts both physical and societal. And eats the slavers he slaughters. And turns loose in the desert the slaves he frees from caravans, because what happens to them once they're free isn't his concern---they're now a part of the food chain (after all, sentient creatures are the finest prey and should be free to roam with dignity, not shackled and beaten and worked to death as property). I really get a kick out of his mass slaughter and dark sense of humor coupled with an active preservation of art and grace in any form (he reveres elven culture and views on art).
I like this concept. What is the name of this blue? |
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Pandora
Learned Scribe
Germany
305 Posts |
Posted - 27 Nov 2008 : 07:48:40
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If the Realms were mine I would not be afraid to correct mistakes made in the past (and say "sorry, we are only humans") and change things that are illogical in hindsight like:
- the numbers given for population figures for many cities (Try to supply a city of 100.000+ (cf. Thay) with food and drink and so on and you will see a few problems that are too big to be handled with medieval methods of transport. Doing them by magic would change the style of the campaign to "high tech" and thats not desirable.) and correspondingly ...
- the numbers of high level characters in the world (not the chosen, but the no-name high level wizards in the towns and cities).
If the Realms were mine I would try to make it come alive more by adding wars, revolutions and new developments which change the political and economic landscape of the Realms to "keep it fresh". All of these would need to be "believable" and not "over the top", they could even be minor changes like a new person leading an important company / family due to the death of the old one. There are a lot of realms in the Realms, so it doesnt need to - and shouldnt - affect the same area all the time. These regular "story changes" would be the cornerstone of my companies income, including the novels that would go with the changes. |
If you cant say what youre meaning,
you can never mean what youre saying.
- Centauri Minister of Intelligence, Babylon 5 |
Edited by - Pandora on 27 Nov 2008 07:49:35 |
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Laerrigan
Learned Scribe
USA
195 Posts |
Posted - 27 Nov 2008 : 07:59:49
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I like this concept. What is the name of this blue?
I didn't bother with building something from "known" Draconic vocabulary for this one Korthalinexis, or Korth for short. He goes by the short name while in his moon elf persona, and uses the surname Dalsein (Elven for "thunder"); he also speaks Elizabethan-style in dragon form, but uses common style in elven guise. His dragon form is a very dark blue, almost black except where direct light hits contours; this in combination with his reputation for freeing slaves from caravans and then turning them loose in the desert without further care has earned him the local name Black Mercy (with a twist of bitterness). In his elven persona, he owns a classy inn called the Black Sapphire, designed and decorated in graceful elven aesthetic, and has a silversmithing shop called Quicksilver (the sign bears a spidery fork of lightning striking the ground, and leafy vines curling upward from where the prongs strike).
You might be able to tell I like talking about him  |
"Your 'reality,' sir, is lies and balderdash, and I'm delighted to say that I have no grasp of it whatsoever." (Baron Munchausen)
"If I find in myself a desire which no experience in this world can satisfy, the most probable explanation is that I was not made for this world." (C.S. Lewis, "Surprised by Joy") |
Edited by - Laerrigan on 27 Nov 2008 08:09:26 |
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Alisttair
Great Reader
Canada
3054 Posts |
Posted - 27 Nov 2008 : 11:12:04
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| If the realms were mine, I think I might consider a scenarior where Cyric, instead of killing Mystra, kills Ao and becomes the new Overgod, master of all the others. MWA HA HA!!!! |
Karsite Arcanar (Most Holy Servant of Karsus)
Anauria - Survivor State of Netheril as penned by me:
http://www.dmsguild.com/m/product/172023 |
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Kilvan
Senior Scribe
Canada
894 Posts |
Posted - 27 Nov 2008 : 12:25:01
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quote:
Originally posted by Alisttair
If the realms were mine, I think I might consider a scenarior where Cyric, instead of killing Mystra, kills Ao and becomes the new Overgod, master of all the others. MWA HA HA!!!!
Thank you, now the Spellplague doesn't seems so bad anymore |
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Brynweir
Senior Scribe
USA
436 Posts |
Posted - 27 Nov 2008 : 13:51:07
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I was reading this thread yesterday and I actually thought about posting that I would make Korth a permanent fixture. I love that dragon, even is he is a bit too honorable for B's tastes . Calimshan really does need his kind of influence and it wouldn't be bad for the rest of the area either.
I also think that there are a few campaigns out there that could benefit from a run-in with Cade... and a few that deserve it .
And about gods, Dalor Darden said "In general, I always thought the Evil Gods of Faerun (because they were drawn too deeply into the setting's novels) lost their allure. They have no mystery or secrets. The expression: "Better the devil you know than the devil you don't" is very true. The evil gods of the FR are too soft for my taste. That wasn't always true...when I first read of Bane, Myrkul and others I thought they were solid evil gods...but I guess they have to be more "PG" for the masses."
I have to agree about the evil gods. It seems to me that by bringing them too much into the novels they had to have explanations for what they were doing- motivations- even Cyric. They explained his actions and it went much deeper than simple madness that no one could predict. (I can't stand Cyric BTW) I think that when it comes to evil there has to be mystery. If it's all laid out and perfectly logical (or illogical) then people can see it and make a rational decision about whether or not they want to join that side, whether they want to be evil.
I honestly think that most people don't look at it logically and go "Oh, yeah, I want to be EVIL!" Typically they look at the end results and see the outcomes (wealth, power, respect/fear) as things that they want. Sometimes people serve evil and don't even realize it... might even regret it when they figure it out.
Anyway- As for my own fixtures - someone keeps telling me that my PC should follow Bane. How can I do that if Bane is gone? 
I think I would also like to see more small scale changes as Pandora mentioned and more events that effect minor places but in a major way. I liked Soldiers of Ice just for the fact that it didn't take place in one of the prominent locations.
I'm actually kind of tired of events/ actions that could "destroy the world." I'd like to see a few things from a more personal perspective - you know, no one is really effected but the people involved. Perhaps you could take something minor, like a change of hands on a family company, and track the ramifications of that minor change. Think how many people's lives are changed by one minor event that no one really thought about. Of course I've read so much that the plots don't interest me so much as the character descriptions/ development.
And as much as people groan over it - I'd like to see the good guys lose more often... not lose and come back and win later or get reincarnated so nothing was really lost... I mean LOSE.
I know some people get into fantasy to escape RL and they don't want to see evil win, but some of us play evil PC's for a reason  .
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Anyone who likes to read something that's really dark and gritty and completely awesome ought to read The Night Angel Trilogy by Brent Weeks. You can check out a little taste at www.BrentWeeks.com I should probably warn you, though, that it is definitely not PG-13 :-D
He also started a new Trilogy with Black Prism, which may even surpass the Night Angel Trilogy in its awesomeness.
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 27 Nov 2008 : 14:04:37
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I like the Korth concept as well.
I might steal him (or one very smilar, rather) for the Raurin.
As for the rest - I'd let others write most of the fluff, but I'd be happy with redrawing all the maps and adding hundreds of new locales to them (many of which wouldn't have details, for DM use). I'd probably want to use my own version of the Realms as well, with countries shifted about. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Pandora
Learned Scribe
Germany
305 Posts |
Posted - 27 Nov 2008 : 14:55:04
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quote:
Originally posted by Brynweir
I have to agree about the evil gods. It seems to me that by bringing them too much into the novels they had to have explanations for what they were doing- motivations- even Cyric. They explained his actions and it went much deeper than simple madness that no one could predict. (I can't stand Cyric BTW) I think that when it comes to evil there has to be mystery. If it's all laid out and perfectly logical (or illogical) then people can see it and make a rational decision about whether or not they want to join that side, whether they want to be evil.
I cant stand Cyric either, because insanity makes him too random for me and you need to be either very intelligent or very thorough / methodical when you want to be evil to the core. Cyrics random madness prevents both IMO.
quote:
Originally posted by Brynweir
I honestly think that most people don't look at it logically and go "Oh, yeah, I want to be EVIL!" Typically they look at the end results and see the outcomes (wealth, power, respect/fear) as things that they want. Sometimes people serve evil and don't even realize it... might even regret it when they figure it out.
There are two problems I can see with evil characters:
1. "Kids" dont want to follow rules and they think that being evil gives them the best deal to do that and simply kill everyone they dont like for no apparent reason. [For a more detailed example see the character "Luster" in "The Gamers: Dorkness Rising".] Here the DM has to hold back on the law enforcement (the one advantage of "the good guys" is working together and thus obvious / stupid crimes should be uncovered much pretty easily) or the PCs would go to jail / be killed pretty soonish. If you dont act evil you really are faking it and should reconsider.
2. People who really want to play smart evil guys (like the rogue who steals stuff while the looting / fighting goes on) often cheat their buddies. Thus they couldnt really rely 100% on their teammates in a fight and thus the DM has to hold back on the difficulty of the fight. If you are cheating your buddies and they dont care about it youre again not really playing an evil group.
Thus it isnt really fair for the DM to play an evil character, because the DM has to hold back somewhat to allow for "evils inherent problems".
quote:
Originally posted by Brynweir
And as much as people groan over it - I'd like to see the good guys lose more often... not lose and come back and win later or get reincarnated so nothing was really lost... I mean LOSE.
Having the good guys really loose is a great incentive for PCs to act ... Having the PCs loose regularly is depressing (and I know that from personal experience), but loosing every once in a while (like getting captured and loosing all magic items) is a good thing.
quote:
Originally posted by Brynweir
I know some people get into fantasy to escape RL and they don't want to see evil win, but some of us play evil PC's for a reason .
Our real life is full of greed and people cheating each other on purpose, so IMO it is not a desirable thing to have that continue in fantasy if your goal is to "escape reality". Evil characters tend to be self-centered / self-focused and that can ruin the fun of other players. Again see "Luster" (I am just playing my alignment.) for a pretty colorful example of how it doesnt work. The goal of a roleplaying group should be to be fun for ALL player AND the DM, thus evil characters might ruin that if the players arent pulling in the same direction.
Being able to "kill stuff without thinking about the consequences" is something that a MMORPG can do much better. |
If you cant say what youre meaning,
you can never mean what youre saying.
- Centauri Minister of Intelligence, Babylon 5 |
Edited by - Pandora on 27 Nov 2008 14:56:37 |
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Laerrigan
Learned Scribe
USA
195 Posts |
Posted - 27 Nov 2008 : 16:08:23
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Cade thinks you're cute when you're evil, Bryn But who wants evil to really win, in any large-scale sense? The shocked looks one can put onto the faces of the decent, straight-minded citizens are so much more fun.....
Markustay---Cool! My influence is spreading.....Soon I will have a thumb in campaigns everywhere, and then I can at last unveil my fiendish plan..... :::rubbing hands together:::
Pandora: Hear, hear! Although evil can be on a larger scale, so to speak, than most things involved in adventure-party life. Bigger fish to fry. I have a NE character that's quite easy to get along with, personable and diplomatic, true to his word (mostly), considerate of others......or at least that's how he behaves when he has to work with others. He's extremely circumspect, and understands the value of gaining people's trust and obligation. His evil goals tend to be far above and beyond what his companions are likely to notice or recognize (though it's always possible), and generally will only affect the party directly in ways that they might not even know. He wants them all dead, but needs them alive. Which provides some hilarious-for-me hidden frustration for what really is a total bastard sociopath behind the well-adjusted facade |
"Your 'reality,' sir, is lies and balderdash, and I'm delighted to say that I have no grasp of it whatsoever." (Baron Munchausen)
"If I find in myself a desire which no experience in this world can satisfy, the most probable explanation is that I was not made for this world." (C.S. Lewis, "Surprised by Joy") |
Edited by - Laerrigan on 27 Nov 2008 16:40:45 |
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Brynweir
Senior Scribe
USA
436 Posts |
Posted - 27 Nov 2008 : 16:37:41
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Cade only thinks that because I AM cute when I'm evil .
And I didn't mean for evil to win on any large scale - I just don't like how things almost always work out for the good guys. You know, the main hero never dies AND he gets the girl. It's so overdone IMO. I don't like predicatable.
I can easily see evil and good working together when both have something to gain -perhaps struggling against something bigger than both. (Probably why I like Freidman's Coldfire Trilogy) I actually like them influencing each other. We all know the subtleties of evil and how easy it is to justify "just this time." I like the idea of good having the same influence on evil - "just one good deed won't make me any less fearsome."
I don't think that there is any reason for the DM to hold back based on how well the "team" trusts each other in a fight. If everyone knows what's what with everyone in advance, then they take the risk of trusting each other or not. That's part of the fun - not knowing what's gonna happen. You can be pleasantly surprised when the rogue steps into danger and saves your life or you can say "I told ya so" when she doesn't. Figuring out how to make it work or how/ when to walk away makes things interesting for me.
And as I am more about the psychology of the interactions than I am about "escape", evil intrigues me. I actually ENJOY it when the good guys end up doing something to aid evil and they even don't know it- maybe they have to fix it later. It's amusing for me.
AND if you're referring to Gaery, Laerrigan- I HATE that guy - lol
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Edited by - Brynweir on 27 Nov 2008 16:41:16 |
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MerrikCale
Senior Scribe
USA
947 Posts |
Posted - 27 Nov 2008 : 16:41:10
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quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
[The empire of the same name that's located on the continent of Sarlona in EBERRON?
whats an eberron? |
When hinges creak in doorless chambers and strange and frightening sounds echo through the halls, whenever candlelights flicker where the air is deathly still, that is the time when ghosts are present, practicing their terror with ghoulish delight. |
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If the Realms were yours...
